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Aberrant: In the Beginning - House Rules- (Suggestion Box)


Titan

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Originally Posted By: SkyLion
This is partially incorrect. Taint subtracts from your willpower toresist any mental aberrations you mihgt have (and if using the Taint Resistance enhancment errata, TR can negate this effect).

It does not however penalize every willpower roll you make, nor affect the rolls you make for your darker Nature when out of temporary Willpower.
I stand corrected. However, what you wrote may be only partly correct as well (which is making this all sound like one of the Alternate endings to Clue).

Originally Posted By: Aberrant Main Book, Page 150, Upper left column
Secondly, permanent Taint affect's a nova's ability to use his Willpower in certain circumstances--specificaly, when he is trying to reist succumbing to the effects of mental disorders. For each point of permanent taint the nova has, the player must subtract one die from his Willpower dice pool when rolling to resist the effects of mental disorders (to a minimum of one).
Looks like I pulled from memory and mixed what happens when you spend all your Temp willpower, with just plain rolls.

However, the above quote did not state that the mental disorders needed to have been acquired due to taint (IE they don't need to be aberrations) either. So yes, Sky Loins got me dead to rights on that LiL SNAFU, but also we've learned that taint May likely effect Flaws as well as aberrations.

It may be worth looking into. But adding some kind of effect similar to a Limit Break from Exalted (But more subdued) when dealing with excessive Taint may still be what you all are looking for.
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Originally Posted By: SkyLion
I noticed...might want to get to a clinic soon... laugh
Been Thinkin about... The Headaches are a getting me woundering!

FYI-My 3 year old Loves your avvie... Your her Mr. Lion man.

And will do Titan. But back on topic before we do, What if chrysalis merged all three Social (Marvel) Mental (portent), and Physical (monster)... Maybe that may work Best?
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Originally Posted By: Titan
Is there any way I can get you guys to take this to AIM or something?

Can I second this?

Nothing personal guys, but seriously, what does all the above have to do with the game. Try and keep it focused on topic pertinent to the game world.

Please?
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What follows is my take on how to handle Chrysalis. I would like to state here that this idea was inspired by the Dharma system used in the old Kindred of the East books, from the oWoD line; I did not make all this up entirely on my own (much as I might like to claim otherwise wink ). Please note: this is only one of the ways that Chrysalis could be altered, and it only takes into account the issue of making Chrysalis more conducive to a typical PbP experience. This method does not address the issue of coccoon times - indeed, it abandons it entirely. That having been said, here goes:

Choose Your Virtue:

As in the World of Darkness line, all players are now considered to have virtues, though these are traits that already exist on your sheets. These are: Quantum, Taint, and Willpower. All of the Archetypes used by the Teragen (and all 'Archetypes' that might be created by some independant philosopher-nova at some later time) follow one of these Virtues, or a combination thereof, as their guiding star.

Marvels

Marvels glorify their superhuman status, and seek to become gods. Power is their mantra, and power is their salvation. The Marvel Archetype follows the Virtue of Quantum.

Monsters

Monsters revel in their twisted natures. Humanity is anathema, and power is for the taking, not for the worshiping. The Monster Archetype follows the Virtue of Taint.

Portents

Portents know better than to value power for its own sake, or to reject humanity out of hand. They walk the line, even as they forge far ahead, keeping always in mind the danger of needless extremes. The Portent Archetype follows the Virtue of Balance (the average of all three Virtues on their sheets).

The Unknown Archetype

There lies the possibility of overcoming the twisting and warping effects of Taint through sheer Willpower alone. If such a path exists, though, no one has discovered it. Yet. The Unknown Archetype would follow the Virtue of Willpower.

Follow Your Path:

Once you know which Archetype your character will follow, you simply have them act accordingly. By faithfully adhering to the code of conduct set forth under eacth Archetype's description (in the Teragen book), your character gains the chance to channel their ever-evolving quantum nature in a safe and measured fashion. How each character chooses to live out the tenants of their Archetype will differ from one nova to another, but the effects are always the same.

A Different Animal: In this system, botches are not the only (or even the preferable) way of gaining Chrysalis, as a failure on a power roll is also capable of earning a character Chrysalis. However, just as a normal botch does not normally earn your character temporary Taint, a normal failure cannot earn your character Chrysalis. If, and only if, the presiding ST rules that your character's actions, at the time of the failure or botch on a power roll, were in line with the Archetype that character follows, a Virtue roll (see below) may be made to see if any Chrysalis is gained. STs are encouraged not to allow the same circumstances to yield these results multiple times: what was enough to bring insight or enlightenment the first time is merely expected thereafter.

Fighting for what You Believe In: This is just my personal opinion; take it as you will (but try not to be offended): Any belief system that cannot hold up under intense and stressful circumstance, including those of combat, is a flawed belief system in all ways. Under the Virtue System what the Teragen source book says about Chrysalis not being attainable while in combat (this generally only applies to those following the path of the Monster) is considered null and void. Provided your character is genuinely acting in accordance with his or her Archetype (as decided by the presiding ST/s), he or she may be able to gain Chrysalis. Thus, a Monster who acts in a cold, calculated, and monstrous fashion while in the middle of combat might gain the insight necessary to roll for Chrysalis (at the ST’s discretion).

Rolling Your Virtue: Once your character has met the necassary conditions, and the ST has decided that she has a chance of gaining Chrysalis, you roll your Virtue. This is done by rolling a number of dice equal to your current rating in the Virtue vs. a number of dice equal to your Permanent Taint score. Do so even if Taint is the Virtue of your Archetype - to quote the KotE sourcebook: "there's a difference between mastering your Demon and having it master you."

  • If your Virtue wins, you gain a point of Permanent Chrysalis (yes, you read that correctly, Permanent not temporary). Any temporary Taint that might have been gained from the failed use of a power (assumming any would have been gained at all) disappears. Additionally, and at the ST's discretion, any Aberrations the character possesses may temporarily lessen by one Severity Type for a single scene (this should only occur when the Virtue dice beat the Taint dice by more than one net success, and possibly not even then - lessening the effects of many of a Monster's Aberrations would be antithetical to what they're trying to achieve, for instance). Typically, physical Aberrations will drop in Severity by one Category (so Medium Aberrations become Mild, and so on), while all rolls to resist Mental Aberrations gain a number of bonus dice equal to the net successes on the Virtue roll. How Quantum Aberrations are affected will have to be decided by the ST on a case by case basis, but some suggestions include: Uncontrollable Power loses a number of dice equal to the net successes on the Virtue roll; Vulnerabilities lose a number of damage die equal to the net successes on the Virtue roll (to a minimum of 1 damage die); Contagious loses damage dice in a similar fashion.
  • If Taint wins the character gains at least one point of temporary Taint (and likely more if the roll occurred because of a failed Power Max or the like). Additionally, and at the ST's discretion, any Aberrations the character possesses may temporarily increase in severity for a single scene. Physical Aberrations will typically increase by one Severity Type, while all rolls to resist Mental Aberrations will typically lose a number of dice equal to the net successes on the resisted Taint roll. How Quantum Aberrations are affected will have to be decided by the ST on a case by case basis, but some suggestions include: Uncontrollable Power gains a number of dice equal to the net successes on the resisted Taint roll; Vulnerabilities gain a number of damage die equal to the net successes on the resisted Taint roll (to a maximum of the character's permanent Taint score); Contagious gains damage dice in a similar fashion.
  • If the result of the roll is a tie, nothing happens. In the back of the character's mind is a sense of imminent epiphany and impending doom approaching all at once, only to fade suddenly and inexplicably, leaving the character feeling confused and cheated (or whatever is appropriate to the specific situation).

Fighting Your Demon: Occasionally, it may happen that a character acts so entirely against their Archetype that (in the ST's opinion) they run the risk of losing some of the insight they've gained into their Quantum natures. In this case, the character makes a Virtue roll normally, but the stakes are the loss of Chrysalis, not its gain!

  • If your Virtue wins, you retain the insight you've gained thus far. For an instant, you feel the maddening and warping effects of true Taint trying to work its will in your body and mind. Then it passes, as quickly as it came, and your Pattern reasserts itself into its rightful arrangement.
  • If your Virtue loses, Tainted energy burns through your body, and your grip on its effects is losened. You lose one dot of Chrysalis, and your Pattern strays just that much further into chaos.
  • If the result of the roll is a tie, you still feel the burning energies of Taint coursing through your body and mind, but you just barely manage to gain control of them in time. Then the feeling passes, leaving you afraid and shaken - you know you only narrowly escaped losing something precious.

The Rewards of the Virtuous:

Now that your character has travelled some way down the path of their Archetype, you probably want to know what, exactly, earning Chrysalis in this system does for you? Are there any side-effects? That kind of thing. Well, here's your answers:

Firstly, as the character’s Chrysalis score grows, she becomes increasingly inhuman in appearance. Just as in the Teragen sourcebook, once a character reaches Chrysalis four she gains an Aberration and a +1 Difficulty modifier to all Social rolls, and for every point thereafter she gains another Aberration, and another +1 Diff. Modifier to Social rolls for every two points thereafter. Again, as in the Teragen sourcebook, the player can choose what sort of Aberration her character develops from high Chrysalis. This is the price of securing one’s place on the throne of Power.

This is not as terrible as it sounds, however, as the Chrysalis score’s benefits grow with the score itself. Once a character has developed her first dot in the Path of her Virtue she may begin lowering her Temporary and Permanent Taint scores with experience points (Monsters are an exception to the rule about lowering Permanent Taint, as Taint itself is the Virtue they follow and lowering it would only be detrimental to their insight - see below for details on how Monsters progress along their path). The cost for lowering Temporary Taint in this way is 10 divided by the character’s Chrysalis score, while the cost for lowering Permanent Taint is 20 minus the character’s Chrysalis score. Lowering either Temporary or Permanent Taint in this fashion will not remove any Aberrations the character might have gained through taint, nor does it remove any Difficulty Modifiers from excessive taint either.

Additionally, the character may, through the use of experience points transform existing Aberrations of one type (Physical, Mental, or Quantum) into another type. Mental Aberrations may be transformed into either Quantum or Physical Aberrations, as the player wishes, but neither Physical nor Quantum Aberrations may be transformed into Mental Aberrations in this manner. At Chrysalis ratings of 1-5 characters may only affect Low-level Aberrations in this fashion, at Chrysalis 6-7 they may affect both Low-level and Medium-level, but not High-level, and at Chrysalis 8+ they may transform any Aberration.

When transforming an Aberration of one Severity Type (Low, Medium, or High) into another class of Aberration of the same Severity Type, the costs are as follows: Low-level: 3xp; Medium-level: 5xp; High-level: 7xp. Furthermore, if the character is willing, she has the option of allowing an Aberration to increase by one Severity Type while she is transforming it; in this case reduce the listed cost by 2 (the character may affect Low-level Aberrations this way even if their Chrysalis score is still below 6). Finally, the character has the option of lowering the severity of her Aberrations, but doing so is difficult and costly. In this case the character must not only pay the listed xp-cost, but the xp-costs of each of the Severity Types she wishes for her Aberration to “descend” to as well. So a character who wishes to not only transform a High-Level Quantum Aberration into a Physical Aberration, but who also wishes to lower it to a Medium-Level Aberration would pay the 7xp for transforming a High-Level Aberration and an additional 5xp to have it “descend” to Medium-level (while lowering it all the way down to Low-level would cost an additional 3xp, for a total of 15xp).

The final, and arguably greatest benefit of Chrysalis is the modifier it applies to the costs of raising certain quantum traits. The character gains the first level of this Experience Modifier at Chrysalis 4, a second at Chrysalis 6, a third at Chrysalis 8, and a fourth at Chrysalis 10. This modifier only applies to the following: the Attunement, Dormancy, and Node backgrounds, Quantum, Quantum Pool, Quantum-related Powers, and any Mega-Attributes, Enhancements, or other Powers that are tied to the character’s Archetype. The modifiers affect experience costs in the following manner: when purchasing new Traits of the appropriate type, the character subtracts their Experience Modifier from the normal cost (to a minimum of 1xp); when raising an appropriate Trait the character instead subtracts their Experience Modifier from the multiplier for raising the power (this can never reduce the cost of raising the Trait below [Current Rating], however).

Characters may not raise their Chrysalis scores higher than 10 minus their Permanent Taint score (though they can, as noted above, lower their Taint scores through the use of xp). Further, if a character gains a point of Permanent Taint, either through the voluntary purchase of a tainted dot in a Quantum Trait, or through the accrual of ten or more points of Temporary Taint from botched Power Maxes or Node rolls for rapid QP regeneration (or through any other means), they lose one dot in their Chrysalis score. This loss does not remove any Aberrations or Social Difficulty Modifiers the character may have gained through high Chrysalis, but it does affect every other aspect of Chrysalis (so xp-costs for lowering Permanent Taint go up, the character may well lose the ability to transform Medium- or High-level Aberrations, and they may also lose a level in their Experience Modifier as well, all of which is bad).

The Path of the Monster: As noted above, Monsters handle the progression along the path of their Virtue slightly differently than any other path does. Monsters who gain dots of Permanent Taint through the purchase of tainted dots in Quantum Traits, or through botching Power Maxes or Node rolls to recharge QPs more quickly (or through some uses of Node Spark, and the like) still lose a corresponding dot of Chrysalis, just as the other paths do. However, if Permanent Taint is raised appropriately, it does not limit how high their ratings in Chrysalis may go - in fact, a Monster can never have a Chrysalis rating higher than their Permanent Taint, meaning that most advanced adherants of the Monstrous Path are a terrifying sight indeed. To raise their Permanent Taint appropriately, a Monster is forced to forego the usual benefit of gaining Taint (reduced costs for raising Traits), and instead must actually pay a specifici amount of experience for each dot so gained! The cost for this is [Current Rating] x 2, and raising it in this way does cause the character to gain Aberrations and Social Difficulty Modifiers at Taint 4+, just as it normally would. Monsters may still transform Aberrations in the same way as adherants of the other Virtues can, though they may not (nor would they want to) lower their Taint scores as other adherants can.

Misc. Notes: I've continued to refer to the Trait Terats use as "Chrysalis" throughout this submission, just for ease of use and recognition, but since this system abandons the "coccoon" aspect of the system, the name isn't entirely appropriate. As such, a different name might well be in order. My own suggestion would be to simply call it after the Archetype the character follows (so a Marvel gains a point in their "Marvel" Trait when they make a successful Virtue roll). That's just me, though, and if anyone else has a better idea, don't hesitate to mention it.

Also, regarding the "Unknown Archetype": I only mentioned the possibility of an Archetype that follows Willpower as its Virtue, but the possibility also exists of Archetypes that follow combinations of two of the Virtues, such as Quantum and Taint, Willpower and Quantum, or Taint and Willpower (in each case you'd use the average of the two as your Virtue when rolling). However, the case of any new Archetype, the details of its path need to be carefully defined, and STs are encouraged to go over it with a fine-toothed comb before approving them. The reason for this is that the nature of the Archetype is what defines what situations might call for Virtue rolls (either for gaining or losing Chrysalis), as well as what Mega-Attributes, Enhancements, and Powers are affected by the Experience Modifier. So care must be taken in the case of any player-created Archetype that might be submitted for play.

So, there it is, I'm done, have at it, and have a nice day. wink

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Someone in chat requested that I reiterate, and elaborate on, what I wrote in the first paragraph of my above post. The system I submitted is meant to address the complaints made by Titan and others concerning the slow rate of Chrysalis accrual, and the inherant problems of cocoon-times in a PbP game. These are the only issues I was trying to address with the above system. This does not address the "cure for taint" question, nor is meant to represent a "cure" (because it isn't), nor does it represent my take on the "perfect system for dealing with taint". It's one of several different systems that I could have come up with, and the only reason I submitted this one is because it seemed (IMHO) to address some of the issues with the old Chrysalis system that were making it unsuitable for a PbP game.

Now that that's out of the way, I'd also like to add to the above post, after realizing there's a few things I either didn't mention, or didn't explain very clearly.

Firstly, Chrysalis would never "reset" under this system. You can't build up Chrysalis 8, and then undergo the actual "chrysalis", resetting your score back to zero in the process. Chrysalis will only ever reduce in score if you lose a point through one personal disaster or another, and it has a maximum rating of 10 in any case.

Secondly, I did mention this idea briefly, but I feel the need to emphasize it again here, since it's an important point. Virtue rolls should only occasionally be allowed by STs, and as the score gets higher it should become a more and more rare occurence. If your character makes one roll to gain, and one roll to lose, Chrysalis during the entirety of a Chapter that's plenty, and in some cases the STs may not want to allow any Virtue rolls at all during the course of a Chapter. The point of all this is that gaining the first couple of dots in Chrysalis (or whatever we decide to call the Trait) shouldn't be all that terribly hard, while advancing to the higher stages (5+) should be difficult indeed, and might even be the focus of an entire Chapter.

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After reading through this a couple of times, I see that it does do exactly what people wanted: a 'way to lose Taint' and 'do it without the caccoon.' This meets both requests. I see only two issues with it (and these are opinions of the player, not the ST):

• The cost of taint and aberration buy-back seems low. Taint and its side effect, aberrations, are big deals. Now, we may see more of a price paid with RP, which would make me feel better about it. In a way, Taint and Chrysalis are cousins; both lead you to inhumanity, but one is done under your control. I'd like to see that kept in mind, though I'm not sure how.

• I worry that the players may find that this completely changes their perceptions of the system and world. This is not a reason to not implement the system. But I wonder if the archtypes themselves are changed, if it will still feel right for the players.

Yes, these are my own opinions. ~Dawn

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Regarding your first point: the costs are based off of those listed in the Teragen sourcebook, except that they are, in most cases, higher. I'm totally happy to see the prices raised, though, if others agree that this is more appropriate. Going by the Teragen sourcebook, lowering Taint costs 1xp per point of Temp Taint removed, and 10xp per point of Perm Taint removed - my system costs more in nearly all cases, but not by much.

As far as Aberrations go: same thing. The costs are nearly identical to that presented in the Teragen sourcebook (I made the costs go either up or down, based off of the level of the Aberration, whereas the sourcebook lists a flat cost of 5xp, regardless). Again, if folks think this should be higher, I certainly won't argue it. Mind you, I don't personally see a need for making it higher - if the costs in the Teragen sourcebook are acceptable, then so should these be (IMO) - but I won't argue the point either; it's a purely incidental factor as far as I'm concerned.

Regarding your second point: I'm not sure I fully understand what you're saying, so I'll hold off on responding for now.

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RE: second point that wasn't clear-

It has the components of Chryalis, but it isn't. Which is kinda the point, but...

You know what? Drop my last point. I don't seem to have the words to articulate it. If that changes, I'll be back to finish what I started. wink

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Ah, well that is a pretty good point. Which is why I brought up the point about changing the name to something other than Chrysalis instead.

Another thing that I'm beginning to think I should mention - though I don't doubt that at least a few of the folks playing in this forum will have already thought of this: since we're playing right from the start of things, the "Teragen" might never come into being. Divis Mal practices his "chrysalis" without following any of the paths of Teras (anyone who thinks that's incorrect should be made aware of the fact that Teras, and its three paths were codified by Caroline Fong and Scripture - in 2003!). Mal allows his followers to practice whatever beliefs they choose, and basically lets them define what the movement looks like, only giving little nudges here and there to keep things moving forward. He himself practices his own method of dealing with Taint, which he apparently implemented quite some time before the Galatea blew up.

So in this game-world the Chrysalis might never come into being at all if some enterprising young novas were to step forward and present a different system for focusing the energies of Taint in a different, but no less effective fashion. Just some thoughts.

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Willpower wouldn't work, because it's one of the three Virtues used to raise Chrysalis. Still, I see where you're going.

Why not just up the xp-cost for lowering Taint? Make it more costly and difficult to do? I only put in the costs I did because they were roughly in line with the listed costs in the Teragen sourcebook, but there's nothing that says we have to keep things that cheap. Upping it to [Current Rating (in Taint)] x 4, for instance. That's pretty damned expensive, right there.

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Im not sure I like using the 3 virtues idea. Maybe have separate virtues, or concepts that one would embody. Each character gets like two or better yet, base it off the score in chrysalis, so that the higher the chrysalis the broader the character and the larger amount of XP discounts.

This just my idea of a possible modification to Cottus Centimane's

These could be any sorta concept, I'm thinking. Anything to play up the teregens individualism.

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Lots of good ideas. Some, though, seem to want to tinker with the mechanics of Taint itself, while others seem to be a bit more complicated than I want. Also, I have never really been enamored of the idea that Chrysalis is a physical manifestation of a philosophical premise, and only available to Terats. So, here's my idea. Don't take it as a final ruling, I just want to be critiqued like everyone else.

Chrysalis (The ItB version)

Who: Anyone with 5 permanent Taint who has saved up at least 50xp for the Chrysalis may enter Chrysalis.

What: Yep, you guessed it, entering Chrysalis causes a crystalline cocoon to surround the character, rendering them immobile and insensate for a period of time equal to (1 day/ 5xp spent) So, if the minimum of 50xp is spent, the character would remain in Chrysalis for 10 days. This seems sufficiently long to me for the 'holy shit' factor, but not so long that you are effectively out of play.

When: Chrysalis may be entered at the player's discretion. That is to say, the character has no say, it could happen at any time, and is not typically a conscious decision. That said, it leaves open the possibility that Teras allows the character to will their Chrysalis into being at their discretion (For those who like the philosophy of Teras, this may offer just the bit of distinction that you need) The purpose here is to make it a part of the story, with full discretion in the hands of the player.

Where: This is the fun part. It could happen anywhere. Because of this, I want to make the cocoon simply indestructible. No health levels, no soak, just indestructible. It may be moved, with a forklift or by a MSTR nova, but not destroyed. Thus, yes, it could be an excellent 'out' in the middle of an unwinnable conflict.

Why: Onset of Chrysalis could be similar to an 'Eruption Event'. Undue stress, an accident that stretches the limit of the nova's power, physical danger, etc. Basically the node goes into overload, and takes steps to bring the Nova to the next level.

How: When in Chrysalis, the player may 'buy back' any dots of powers or mega-atts at full xp cost. Let me make that clearer. The player may take a dot off of a power, and add the xp that it would cost to buy it to their xp bank (which started at at least 50xp, remember). They may do this to the limit of one dot in powers or MATT for each dot of Taint that they have. Thus, if the character has 5 dots of Taint, they may buy back a total of 5 dots. They may then spend their xp normally on powers or attributes. No dots bought during Chrysalis may be bought tainted. Additionally, they may buy off Taint for an expenditure of 10 xp per dot. For zero xp, they may choose to change aberrations during Chrysalis, so long as the levels are the same (trading high-level aberrations for high level aberrations) This makes staying tainted attractive, since the power gained will be great, but offers a solution to Taint for those who truly want it.

This will almost certainly need to be tweaked, and yes, it does significantly change the milieu. If it just rubs you all wrong, say so. Don't hold back just because I hold the power of life and death over your character (Mwuhahahaha). Seriously, though.

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Cottus, I think your system is inventive and well detailed. I didn't understand the "xp modifier" though. Please give an example.

Titan...when i read your above post it spoke to something going through my mind as I read Cottus's proposal. Namely the idea that Chrysalis would be cooler if it wasn't some unique thing to the Teragen but a function of the post human evolution inherent to *all* Nova's biology.

The other things I like about your system are the fact that it is simple and straightforward. Flat effects rather than formulas and the indestructable cocoon idea just makes for excellent flavor. How are people going to react to the glowing coccon that just appeared in the middle of the street...it sparks my imagination in that people will start to underatand that Novas are not actually some kind of comic book phenomenon but actualy something more alien.

I also like the way you can change traits and such. I do have one question...if in a chrysalis I want to buy up my Quantum to 5 or 6, would I then get the usual taint dots for those levels or does the efficient quantum channeling negate that effect? If it does it makes Chrysalis extremely attractive but maybe that is unbalancing. Or...what if Chrysalis is the only way (saving those already erupted at that level) to get from Q5 to Q6...it represents the threshold at which the Nova truly begins to unlock their godlike potentials.

As is I endorse the Titan Method tm* of Quantum Evolution. smile

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I have a concern:

Your system here encourages people to take taint during character generation, and in effect punishes those who do not. Here's why:

During creation all costs are flat. Each dot of...whatever...costs a set number of points, either bonus or nova. Taint taken now reduces those per-dot costs.

Spending experience has a different scale. The costs of new dots become cumulative. It is -much- cheaper to buy high end dot ratings during creation. Normally the limit on this is that you have a limited pool of Nova Points to start with...and using Taint to stretch them has consequences in the long term.

Your system however states that exp can be spent to eliminate Taint on a flat scale...that is, 1 dot of taint = 10 exp, no matter how many dots are bought off. This effectively allows you to spend exp to retroactively reduce the costs of powers bought during creation. As long as I buy 5 tainted powers or quantum, and thus am eligible for Chrysalis as soon as I earn 50 exp, I can effectively "trade" each 10 exp for up to 2 nova points during creation.

This seems like a huge bargain to me!

At the same time, those who decide, for whatever reason, not to buy tainted (which is supposed to be a good thing, right? Go you, you didn't take the easy road to power?), are completely cut off from the valuable ability to A) Redefine their powers in midstream, B) Achieve temporary invulnerability in combat, if needed.

The only downsides to Taint become the brief period of game time that passes between blocks of 50exp earned, during which one must cope with the...almost nonexistent difficulties presented by mild social penalties and aberrations that have limited or no game effects...and the relatively brief time "out of action" in the chrysalis.

Is it just me, or was taint supposed to be a -bad- thing in Aberrant?

I dunno.

I will admit that, on this first analysis, it seems like a huge giveaway to taint monkeys and the Teragen. And that annoys me.

If I'm wrong, then I'll change that opinion.

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Originally Posted By: SalmonMax

Your system however states that exp can be spent to eliminate Taint on a flat scale...that is, 1 dot of taint = 10 exp, no matter how many dots are bought off. This effectively allows you to spend exp to retroactively reduce the costs of powers bought during creation. As long as I buy 5 tainted powers or quantum, and thus am eligible for Chrysalis as soon as I earn 50 exp, I can effectively "trade" each 10 exp for up to 2 nova points during creation.

At first glance I was thinking good point! But reading on I am not sure I understand about the "trade" you are speaking of. Say I have taint 5 and 2 mild physical aberrations. Say for this that 2 of those taint were for quantum so those taint are "worth" 2 NP. I save up 50 xp...I want to spend 20 xp to lower taint down to 3. I am spending that xp on something other than advancment...in effect I am paying to "buy off" the taint (similar to in the Long March). Thats 20 xp that could have been spent on something else. Is what you are meaning to say is that for those 20 xp that I plyed a long time to get I am saving myself 4 NP to buy more stuff at chargen? You still keep your aberrations though and the social penalties..

Im not seeing the problem really with this is that chargen will work as normal, but you sacrifice getting cool new stuff for those 20xp. The idea of revamping existing dots is cool and something another ST of mine did that I thought was innovative.

You do have a good point in that it seems to reward tainted characters...but Chrysalis has always been like that. I may not be understanding you correctly though.

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At the same time, those who decide, for whatever reason, not to buy tainted (which is supposed to be a good thing, right? Go you, you didn't take the easy road to power?), are completely cut off from the valuable ability to A) Redefine their powers in midstream, B) Achieve temporary invulnerability in combat, if needed.


Not so much invulnerability in combat so much as it takes you out of the combat and the next several days in scenes completely. I dont think that facet is broken and in fact makes for an awesome bit of setting material. As for redefining powers and such, again its an idea I have seen before that I think is cool and fits the idea of transmogrification (as opposed to the canon system which is merely advancment+new aberrations).

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The only downsides to Taint become the brief period of game time that passes between blocks of 50exp earned, during which one must cope with the...almost nonexistent difficulties presented by mild social penalties and aberrations that have limited or no game effects...and the relatively brief time "out of action" in the chrysalis.
I disagree here. The social penalties for taint are huge...a +1 or +2 difficulty alone is going to sabotage relations with baselines. more than that and it becomes impossible without very high Mega socials. On the other hand the social penalty thing always did confuse me...why would a social penalty from aberations make you less intimidating? Wouldn't you be moreso? Seduction and animal handling I can get since people and animals will be repulsed. Subterfuge shouldnt be though, and arguably intimidation. I might suggest revising the blanket "social penalty" to be any charisma skills or rolls, seduction and style rolls for seduction and animal handling, as well as include rapport from wits.

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Is it just me, or was taint supposed to be a -bad- thing in Aberrant?


Many people feel taint=bad. I tend to play tainted characters because I like the x-men mutant factor in my supers. I think good and bad is a morality judment that we don't need. Also I have always dislike the White Wolf Mechanic of "If you get to 10 x or 0 x youre character is feral and unplayable." It works for Vampire but I dont think Aberrant needs it....especially when I have *never* seen anyone approach taint 10 without intending to and never seen anyone lose a character to it. I think you should become nuts and unplayable when you take enough mental aberrations to do so. For example even if you took taint 6 or 7 and you get Rage or Lust imbalances...you are basically screwed and will get put down.

So I would make mental aberrations mandatory for any taint gained from the Node background, and if you want to preserve the taint mad at 10, you can say that the 9th dot of taint is always a mental aberration and at taint 10 you get 2 or 3...enough to take you out of the game.

As it is though, I don't see taint as an inherently "bad" thing. What is so bad about glowing eyes or an anima banner? Some aberrations are inconvenient to be sure...like say Dumbo syndrome for example.

I think Taint is a measure of how far a Nova has gone from the human norm, as well as their control over quantum energies. I don't have the perfect solution myself though so lets just keep talking about it!
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I mentioned this in chat and it helped me clarify my thought so I am adding it here to the main discussion.

What I think I was getting at is that under the canon Chrysalis rules, one can also buy off taint...for the same xp cost as Tiatn listed, IIRC. I think the only difference is that in canon in order to do so you actually get even more social penalties and aberrations in which case I would argue, bith IC and OOC: "what's the point?" You are better off saying eff the Chrysalis and keeping your taint where it is.

Titan's version at least makes Chrysalis a useful functional thing to pursue.

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Yar, my post was rambling a bit. I'll try to cut down to some essential points instead of getting off on tangents. Here it is in a nutshell.

I dislike Chrysalis...period. The very NOTION of Chrysalis makes me actually somewhat physically revolted.

Why?

Because in Aberrant, there's this thing called Taint. The idea is that you can get more power if you succumb to it, but AT A COST.

Now. The core mechanics of Aberrant are -ludicrously- biased in favor of taint. There are literally NO DOWNSIDES to taking up to 3 taint. Why would anyone NOT? Well, they can be all high minded, and decide not to...but the game punishes that. You have to be a martyr to do it.

4 to 5 taint, you take a ridiculously meaningless penalty. A superficial, non-game effect mutation, and a "social penalty" of 1 success. Despite SkyLion's claims, I maintain that this is not a significant deterrent. Certainly not on par with the large amount of extra power 4 or 5 taint can make available. +1 success needed compared to the astronomically high dice pools available to novas, and applicable only to baselines...which many novas have little to no contact with anyway...is not significant by any but the most self-servingly crafted metrics. And of course, honestly...how many social rolls do most games even bother making? Seriously now. Most social situations in games are handled based on what the character says or does...rolls are uncommon. Have there been any social rolls in ItB yet? Many? They could be behind the scenes, so this question is in earnest, not rhetorical. The impression I get is that there have not been many at all.

Net result: No reason not to take 3 taint. No -real- reason not to take up to 5.

The 10 Taint And Bye Bye rule is similarly pretty limp. It's nearly impossible to gain taint through power usage in Aberrant unless you REALLY REALLY try. As previous posts on Chrysalis point out. It's trivially easy to control one's accumulation of taint. The 10 limit is a paper tiger.

Okay! This outlines my view of the situation in Aberrant -as written-. Basically, I find the rules on Taint to be so slanted in favor of taint that it's kind of bleakly funny. The notion that Taint somehow represents "power at a cost" would necessitate that taint HAVE a cost. Arguably, at levels above 5, it does. Below that, that argumentation becomes increasingly hard to support, in my view.

Enter the Chrysalis.

Someone seems to have thought, "Taint is too hardcore. We should find ways to make it work FOR the character."

...

Okay, so I hope my reaction is clear now. smile I already thought the rules on taint were too lax. Then they come along and not only do they make Taint even less onerous than before...but they make it GOOD.

Just to be clear, I'm not using "bad" and "good" in moral senses right now. I'm using them a practical descriptions of mechanical effects on a character. In this sense, damage is "bad" for a character, and healing is "good." So please don't come at me with pleas for no morality.

Taint is supposed to be bad. It is the COST of "power at a cost." The tradeoff for having more points to play with is being saddled with taint.

So if taint has no cost...or worse, has BENEFITS...then WHERE IS THE TRADE OFF?

Why would anyone, ever, for any reason short of RP-martyrdom (ie - hobbling your character "for the RP challenge") NOT take taint?

Chrysalis takes an equation that was unbalanced to begin with, and just...removes everything but the plus sign. Plus plus plus! Plus points, plus powers, plus everything! Cost: Zero!

And that bugs me.

Edit - Ahem. Okay, so I rambled again. What's this all mean for ItB?

Probably nothing.

I'll simmer with discontent that high taint monsters get cool perks and spiffs that the people who are trying to walk the fine line have to do without...above and beyond the reduction in nova points they already suffered.

Because really, it's a cool game, and Chrysalis won't change that.

So while I dislike the rule as proposed, I don't know if there's any way I'd -ever- like -any- rule allowing Chrysalis, so I can't really claim to have an opinion that will be useful or helpful to people trying to come up with such a rule. smile

In summary...I guess you can ignore all this.

Hee.

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Okay much more succinct. thanks. And sorry for misterpreting the good/bad thingy.

I have to say that under the RAW anyone with enough taint to matter and enough Chrysalis to use it is looking at something like a +4 difficulty. So you need 5 successes to have the equivalent of 1. Even on a (non mega) dice pool of 10 you are only averaging 4 successes. True Megas can counteract that but you are either a.) specialized for socilization or b.) pay through the nose to buy up those abilities to counteract the penalty.

As for making it an *actual* penalty, I think rather than rolling it just needs to be considered in rping. i think a perfect example of this is the way Juno reacted to Titan Omega. He has Taint 5 and Unearthly Beaty...so she interpreted his too human perfection in the perfect way...she felt it made him more distant, removed, untouchable.

There is a quote from the Aberrations page in the core book that says something to the effect that an aberration doesn't necessarily have to be disadvantageous in combat. What I extrapolate from this is that a lot of the penalty from taint and its effects shuold actually be carried out through roleplaying. It might be handy to list it as one of the Roleplaying Notes in the sig line for example.

Also I agree with you SM in that the writers of the Teragen book went too far when they made Chrysalis and Taint a reason to buy stuff cheaper. On the other hand as someone mentioned if it takes you out of IC time for several months you are actually *losing* xp since you probably would have earned more in playing than you saved. But i agree that if we take away the immense cost in *time* that we should remove the xp break as well.

EDIT: As I just mentioned to you in chat, the Long March way of handling the taint cure basically makes you pay in xp the cost you saved at chargen from buying things tainted. If we applied this to Chrysalis would that seem more equitable?

Also, katalyst asked in chat if by reducing Taint if it takes away Aberrations. In the LM way this is what happens with the cure. In canon this goes against the purported theme and goals of Chrysalis. But if we are going to have a non Chryalis method of reducing taint or even completely redefine the intent of Chryslais, such that it represents a novas natural biological purification or evolution, this might work...

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I have to say that under the RAW anyone with enough taint to matter and enough Chrysalis to use it is looking at something like a +4 difficulty. So you need 5 successes to have the equivalent of 1. Even on a (non mega) dice pool of 10 you are only averaging 4 successes. True Megas can counteract that but you are either a.) specialized for socilization or b.) pay through the nose to buy up those abilities to counteract the penalty.

-- Ah, but no. 5 taint is a social penalty of +1. Now it may be in RAW things are different, but in this case "enough taint to matter" is 5. Or 6. +2 difficulty isn't THAT bad, though it's getting there. But it's also worth mentioning, again, that the most novas of power don't seek out meaningful interactions with baselines anyway. Of note too is that social rolls are still a rare breed. One could argue that this is a symptom of bad gaming...but I disagree! I think rolling for every little social interaction is a horrible idea. More on that below, as you sort of address what I'm getting at.

As for making it an *actual* penalty, I think rather than rolling it just needs to be considered in rping. i think a perfect example of this is the way Juno reacted to Titan Omega. He has Taint 5 and Unearthly Beaty...so she interpreted his too human perfection in the perfect way...she felt it made him more distant, removed, untouchable.

-- Some practical guidelines for how to do that in the rules would be good. Maybe we should come up with some. smile Also, not to jab (though I will), but I seem to recall taking a lot of nudging from you -on that exact topic- when you thought my reactions of Juno were not 'correct' for his appearance. Change your mind? smile

There is a quote from the Aberrations page in the core book that says something to the effect that an aberration doesn't necessarily have to be disadvantageous in combat. What I extrapolate from this is that a lot of the penalty from taint and its effects shuold actually be carried out through roleplaying. It might be handy to list it as one of the Roleplaying Notes in the sig line for example.

-- "Roleplaying costs" are one of the great Grues of the game industry. It's in the same drawer as the Paladin Code of Honor from older versions of D&D...where Paladins were this freaking uberclass, that were "balanced" by having silly attribute minimums (that everyone just cheated to get anyway) and having "roleplaying restrictions" that were either ignored, or made into absurd tools of oppression by GM's. Roleplaying costs are fine and well, but should be rewarded with roleplaying rewards. From a "rules" perspective, if you want mechanical bonuses, you should be willing to accept mechanical costs. Obviously, outside the rules, GMs can reward whatever they want with whatever they want...that's a whole other matter. But that's outside the scope of this discussion. We're talking about rules that would try to be generally applicable...not plot and story awards and costs.

Also I agree with you SM in that the writers of the Teragen book went too far when they made Chrysalis and Taint a reason to buy stuff cheaper. On the other hand as someone mentioned if it takes you out of IC time for several months you are actually *losing* xp since you probably would have earned more in playing than you saved. But i agree that if we take away the immense cost in *time* that we should remove the xp break as well.

-- Well, remember too that in most games, downtime is edited to nothing. Even in the rules as written, unless everyone in the group BUT YOU keeps gaming without you...or is awarded fiat xp for their hypothetical actions while you were entombed...then there's no real cost to being in a coccoon for 2800 odd years, or whatever.

Edit - Hee. We need to wait longer before posting. smile

A solution that is zero-sum...that is, costs neither less nor more to a character in the end than in the beginning, would be much more acceptable to me, yes.

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Not so fast Peter. Titan presnted his idea for discussion so nothing is set in stone yet.

I think the real question we should ask ourselves is one of theme. Taint was originally created to represent the theme in Aberrant of corrupting power as well as to drive home the Trinity Metaplot.

However mechanically speaking Taint has *always* been a voluntary mechanic..as many point out its rediculous hard to gain temporary taint anyways unless you do certain things (which I have done maybe once in all my years). According to the core rules Taint is basically a themed thing, as in i may have taken characters with mental aberrrations but that was becuase that was the concept of the character i was interested in playing.

In other words, nothing has changed. Its all flavor.

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First of all can you please quote or bold quoted parts in your response? it makes it much easier to navigate.

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-- Ah, but no. 5 taint is a social penalty of +1. Now it may be in RAW things are different, but in this case "enough taint to matter" is 5. Or 6. +2 difficulty isn't THAT bad, though it's getting there. But it's also worth mentioning, again, that the most novas of power don't seek out meaningful interactions with baselines anyway. Of note too is that social rolls are still a rare breed. One could argue that this is a symptom of bad gaming...but I disagree! I think rolling for every little social interaction is a horrible idea. More on that below, as you sort of address what I'm getting at.
With Chryslis 5 it becomes at minimum +2 difficulty.
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-- Some practical guidelines for how to do that in the rules would be good. Maybe we should come up with some. smile Also, not to jab (though I will), but I seem to recall taking a lot of nudging from you -on that exact topic- when you thought my reactions of Juno were not 'correct' for his appearance. Change your mind? smile

You misunderstood. The reaction to Titans first appearance was underwhelming. that is when I made that comment. His second appearance the written reaction was approporiate. Lets not poke at each other if possible shall we? smile

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-- "Roleplaying costs" are one of the great Grues of the game industry. It's in the same drawer as the Paladin Code of Honor from older versions of D&D...where Paladins were this freaking uberclass, that were "balanced" by having silly attribute minimums (that everyone just cheated to get anyway) and having "roleplaying restrictions" that were either ignored, or made into absurd tools of oppression by GM's. Roleplaying costs are fine and well, but should be rewarded with roleplaying rewards. From a "rules" perspective, if you want mechanical bonuses, you should be willing to accept mechanical costs. Obviously, outside the rules, GMs can reward whatever they want with whatever they want...that's a whole other matter. But that's outside the scope of this discussion. We're talking about rules that would try to be generally applicable...not plot and story awards and costs.

I suppose we will have to disagree. I think that roleplaying limitations can be just as debilitating if not moreso than mechanical ones. Its all in the implementation.

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-- Well, remember too that in most games, downtime is edited to nothing. Even in the rules as written, unless everyone in the group BUT YOU keeps gaming without you...or is awarded fiat xp for their hypothetical actions while you were entombed...then there's no real cost to being in a coccoon for 2800 odd years, or whatever.

Well in the sense that we are chanig from canon I agree. Being in Chrysalis for 10 days isnt much. If we were using the RAW however it would make a huge difference in this kind of game, since things are happening at different paces and being out for months really would take you out of the story for a long time IRL... Buit yeah we are changing that. Would it be possible for you to adjust your mindframe to a redifinition of Chrysalis or even taint that doesnt make it necessarily "bad" but just "different?" Post human? From what i can see, aside from you expressed overall distatse and the desire to axe the whole idea of Chryysalis is that you dont want to see those with access get cost breaks when buying powers.

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*poke*

smile

If there's no net mechanical effect, you can call the process Chrysalis, or Nirvana or Kumquat Delight as far as I'm concerned. My objection is to the -essence- of the event, not to the name of it.

I would also ask that y'all consider the idea that such a "chrysalis" be available to any character, regardless of taint, as a vehicle for potentially rescripting their powers and/or spending experience.

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Originally Posted By: SalmonMax
*poke*

smile

If there's no net mechanical effect, you can call the process Chrysalis, or Nirvana or Kumquat Delight as far as I'm concerned. My objection is to the -essence- of the event, not to the name of it.

I would also ask that y'all consider the idea that such a "chrysalis" be available to any character, regardless of taint, as a vehicle for potentially rescripting their powers and/or spending experience.


Yeah that is sort of what I was getting at. That it is as much a part of being a nova as the boosted metabolism.
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Provided, of course, that the Nova is sufficiently introspective, esoteric, dedicated, etc. Most people need some sort of training, contemplation, or other extensive process to acquire the personality traits that seems to be at the root of chrysalis.

The mechanics are something that should limit availability to the effect based on it not being an easy things to do.

EDIT: Just thought of a real world effect that might add something. There was a period in the 80s I read about where there were alot of quantitative studies on the effectiveness of psycho-therapies. The result in many was that the method of therapy didn't matter so much. Most therapies were equally effective so long as they didn't actually introduce harmful influences.

Something that makes me think of Chrysalis as very close to meditation, or therapy.

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Michael Peters is not going to be a Taint monster. I play roleplaying games to play the character. The mindset of so called "Min-Maxers" is almost alien to me.

I dont know, I see the rules as Titan suggested them and I say to myself "Interesting. Maybe Michael will have that some day, some kind of golden crystaline cocoon. That might be cool."

I watch this thread and I am impressed by the thought and depth that many of you put into your posts discussing the rules. Please, keep it up. I've learned more about Chrysalis in the last 6 pages of this thread then I did by reading the Teragen Sourcebook.

yourock

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