The Permanent Blues in Two Parts

[Fortune's Son]

Part I

I had some thoughts I wanted to share on "Permanent". It came to me when I read the following in another thread:

(post) "However, just to clear it up from my point of view Permanent is PERMANENT. Not permanent when it suits you best or, or permanent with an option to make it go away, or permanent with the 'if I use this conjunction of powers I can get rid of it temporarily'." (Warren J. Verona)

(reply) "with the obvious exception that if your permanent power is based on quantum it goes away if/when you dorm..." (Overlord)

(reply) "I tend to to shy away from making things too logical... but thanks for that Cpt. Obvious." (Warren J. Verona)

With no offense intended to Overlord or Warren, I don't think the situation is obvious. I'll explain what I mean but let's do a quick review first. If you can Dorm then you have a node and, for want of a better term, you also have the knack to make your node become inactive. While you're inactive you lose almost all of the benefits of being a nova. Yes, you're healthier than the average baseline and have better resistance but otherwise you're undetectable from a baseline short of someone performing an MRI scan or an X-ray of your skull to detect the node physically. Permanent is also very straightforward. You have a power that would normally require an expenditure of quantum to activate and/or maintain but, in the case of Permanent, it no longer requires quantum to be expended and cannot be shut off. This much is factual.

So the question is; how can you Dorm and turn off your node if you have a power that cannot be turned off? The obvious answer is you can't Dorm anymore. Think about it; Dorm is a simple yes/no event. Permanenent is a YES only event and, although it has no die roll intrisically associated with it, it does have the die of the power itself. Therefore, if the nova were to try and Dorm, the Permanent power would resist the action. Remember, the point is not what happens to aberrations after you are Dormed. The point is how do you Dorm if an aberration is preventing you from Dorming. I can think of an exception of sorts though. I seem to recall there is a mechanism for dealing with Taint compulsions. If I'm remembering this correctly, you have to expend a point of willpower to overcome the compulsion for a short period of time. So if the nova were to expend the willpower they could overide the aberration then Dorm. But keep in mind the power requires no quantum expenditure and isn't under conscious control. Just because you've Dormed doesn't mean your node is gone, only inactive. But as the permanent power isn't inactive, only held at bay by an act of will, when the time bought by that expenditure of willpower has elapsed the power is going to try and reassert itself.

I believe this is a very straightforward chain of logic.

Part II

I personally don't like the Permanent aberration. Not because its prone to abuse, it really isn't once people understand what it is, rather because its flat out nasty. If the character concept is something like the Thing from the Fantastic Four, with a power that is always on and can't (I would think) be disrupted because its always on, then Permanent is certainly the right choice. In most other cases it is at very least a pain in the ass. Think about it; if I'm a shapeshifter with the Permanent aberration. that means I can never again take my own shape for longer than the amount of time I can gain by expending willpower. Some might even argue shape shifting is the process of going from one shape to another therefore I couldn't maintain any shape unchangingly but I'm not going to get into that. Quantum Hypnosis? People will be dropping into a hypnotic state just by making eye contact. I'd have to spend the rest of my life wearing dark glasses like a blind man. Telepathy? The voices in my head are never, ever, going to shut up for longer than the time I can hold them at bay with willpower. Growth powers? Much like shape shifting it can be argued my size is always changing to some degree but even if its only small changes with a certain range I can never be simply normal for longer than a very short period.

This is a nasty aberration. Truly madding.

[Hugin]

Problem is the PG also presents it as as strength. Fucking nuts that, eh?

[Courier]

I think by definition a Perm power is one can't control, and also can't spend quantum on, so Perm: Shapeshift isn't a concept that works well.

Uncontrolled Shapeshift would be work a lot better.

RE: Dorm vs. Perm

We already have a fair number of examples where people with Perm powers can Dorm their way out. Superbeast, Geryon.

Something else to point out is Dorm only lowers you Taint by Dots-in-Dorm. So if you have Taint 9 and Dorm 1, then you still have aberrations even when dormed. Presumably that would mean you still have all the problems (social mods, other) with none of the benifits.

[Mr Fox]

If I were running a game in which someone that takes permanant as an aberration then they can't shut it off short of dorming.

If someone were to take it as a strength I would treat it differently and not make it nearly the pain in the butt that it can be.

[Ashnod]

There is a difference between Permanent duration, Permanent as a strength, and Permanent as an aberration.

[Courier]

The Perm Powers seem to come in two flavors. Some of them can be turned off (Armor, Psychic Shield), others don't appear to be (Luck, Intuition, the Perm Aberration).

Invulnerability doesn't say that it can be turned off, so the implication is that it can't be. Comic book examples would be Superman can't get shots even when he wants to.

IMHO Perm the strength is designed to make a power that has a duration that is permanent. That's fine so far... but... this doesn't square well with the q-pool rules, nor the RQC extra.

Does Growth + Perm (the Strength) mean that you're always Big? Considering it's cheaper than RQC, I think a strong argument can be made that it does. If that seems like a disadvantage keep in mind he doesn't have taint problems, and he could buy Shrinking to pay juice to get normal sized.

And then Perm is brutally broken applied to a number of powers.

Summation: The Merits and Flaws section weren't designed for game balance and really should be off limits for players. IMHO it works reasonably well as an ST option for building NPCs.

[Ashnod]

Remember that Permanent as a duration is not supposed to be a disadvantage. It basically means the power is on once activated until the nova consciously turns it off. If I have duration of permanent on my Immolate, I'm always burning once activated, but all that means is that I don't have to pay any quantum to activate it or to continue burning. I still have the option NOT to use it.

Only Permanent Power as aberration specifically says the power can no longer be suppressed.

Think about it this way: a power with Maintenance as the duration requires you to expend quantum to extend the effect past the original time frame. However, you're not required to use the effect for the entirety of time purchased by the quantum cost. By the limits of my maintenance duration, I can use my Immolate for five minutes before having to refuel it. That does not mean I MUST use it for five minutes, that I have no choice in the matter and that if I accomplish what I intended to do in 3 minutes, I can't shut it off.

Both of these examples can be Disrupted since Disrupt is attacking the Trait itself by countering the "Dots" in the rating.

[Fortune's Son]

Originally Posted By: Hugin

Problem is the PG also presents it as as strength. Fucking nuts that, eh?

That aspect reminds of the OOTS webcomic where the characters kvetch about how the word "level" causes confusion because TSR wouldn't use a Thesaurus. Same word, different meanings depending on whether its the Aberration, the Duration or the Strength.

Originally Posted By: Courier

RE: Dorm vs. Perm
We already have a fair number of examples where people with Perm powers can Dorm their way out. Superbeast, Geryon.

Without invoking the observation "White Wolf doesn't follow its own rules when it comes to canon characters", all I can say is that's why I went looking for an exception. And found a possibility in the taint compulsion mechanics.

Originally Posted By: Courier

Something else to point out is Dorm only lowers you Taint by Dots-in-Dorm. So if you have Taint 9 and Dorm 1, then you still have aberrations even when dormed. Presumably that would mean you still have all the problems (social mods, other) with none of the benifits.

This is an area to get comment from the people that use the Permanent aberration with their characters. I don't use it so can't comment from personal experience. Nor do I remember anyone with the Permanent Aberration addressing it in a role playing situation or fiction here at RPG-Post although I might have overlooked an example along the way.

Originally Posted By: Mr Fox

If I were running a game in which someone that takes permanant as an aberration then they can't shut it off short of dorming.

As Courier points out though, simply Dorming doesn't actually address the issues involved unless the character can Dorm at a greater level than they are tainted. The difference between his approach and mine is he concentrates on the social aspects of the taint while I concentrate on the power aspects. If it requires no juice to run the power and is outside your control why would it turn off just because you flipped the off switch? To be honest though, the reason I concentrate on the power aspect is its easy to arbitrate or legislate while roleplaying Taint isn't.

Originally Posted By: Ashnod

There is a difference between Permanent duration, Permanent as a strength, and Permanent as an aberration.

Very true. White Wolf + a Thesaurus would have been a good combination.