Aberrant RPG - Mega-strength-- broke?

[SkyLion]

I think i speak for many here when I say that we have all become very comfortable with the way mega str works as is...and this is with years and dozens if not hundreds of games to have playtested it with.

trust me, it's fine as is! And it fits the flavor of the comic book source material IMHO.

[Evan-Happy Scientist]

The problem is that not all Mega-Stats are equal. What's the real benefit of Mega-App, outside of roleplaying it?

Doesn't Mega-Dex add to a lot more powers than Mega-Cha.?

Also remember that the enhancements help out a lot. Sure, Mega-Str. lets you kick out a lot of damage, but it doesn't let you regenerate, or convince the bad guy to not hit you in the first place.

Not everything balances out mathematically. Such is life. It falls to the ST and the player to play up their strengths to have fun.

[Warren Verona]

Originally Posted By: Arius

I guess personally I'm not content that it has its own set of rules separate from the other Mega-ATTs.

It needs it. Strength is the only attribute that you can wield as a weapon. Hence it's treated like one.

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I'm all for the idea of super-strength as its on weapon, but ProfPotts shows that Mega-Strength beats down even Quantum bolt when it comes to hurling stuff.

ProffPotts can suckle the base of my snarglies. M-Str cannot alter any other individuals soak.

Indulge me in an example: Zappa Da'Rappa, the Hip Hop crime fighter has a soak of 25L/25B. He squares off against Gonads the Bardbarian Rockstar/Supermodel/Elite who also has a Soak of 25L/25B.

Gonads punches for [25]+17B, Zappa Da' Rappa soaks with 25L/25B (taking only 17B, rolled). He lives but he's mad now cuz his new bling fell off and was crushed. Zappa blasts a Armor Piercing Q-Bolt at Gonads and scores 12 successes! That's -24 to Gonads Soak total! While only 5 of those successes carry over to Zappa Da' Rappa's damage pool, all are factored for calculating the total armor breeched. Gonads is now facing a [10]+25B attack, with only 1B to protect himself.

He takes 9 automatically and the 25 are almost a sure bet that he'll think twice about messin with Hip Hop crime fighters, or their bling, for quite some time.

Q-Bolt has stood its ground against the M-Str myth.

Example end. (Clap damnit, that was supposed to be theatrical)

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I feel every player is tempted to take a BIT of super-strength, just in case, even if it wouldn't apply to their character concept that well.

Tell em' 'No'. You are allowed you know.

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Of course, of course, a mature player and ST would skip it over a really good idea. But everyone wants to make sure their character doesn't get killed prematurely.

Then get more defense, not offence.

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In my mind, I feel there should be equality within the mechanics of Mega-atts without regard to any other game mechanic. There's something appealing about Courier's suggestion to just apply the auto-success function put forth by M-STR to all the M-atts... but I feel then that is a bit too powerful without a cost.

You then are given the problem McGee had: since they are always 5, 10, or 15+ successes ahead of you, you'll find yourself doing whatever any social nova asks you too.

Not much fun.

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or convince the bad guy to not hit you in the first place.

I get this image of Evan getting mugged in an alley screaming "Not in the face! Not in the face!"

[Warren Verona]

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

And it fits the flavor of the comic book source material IMHO.

Buh... buh... I thought Aberrant was a game about political intrigue and cloak and dagger type stuff. There's no super heroes in Aberrant!

[Arius]

LoL, Revenant, your math example characters are hilarious. Well done.

And Overload... what can I say to counter that? You're right. The mere fact that we're all here debating this TEN YEARS after the game was published, and years after it was CANCELLED, is testimony to how well-loved the game is.

I mean, Jeezus, in-canon, Randal "Fireman" Portman is getting elected for president NEXT YEAR. We have a European Union now, and that never happened in the Aeonverse, and Russia never collapsed a second time to create a Confederation.

We'll probably still be posting about this kinda stuff as old-timers when the Aberrant War is scheduled to occur in real time.

So between Revenant's impeccable logic, and Overload's appeal to the fact that we've all been loving the system for an entire decade,

I stand before you

Defeated

Convinced not to change anything for my next game.

[Evan-Happy Scientist]

I feel so ... left out.

[Warren Verona]

Zappa Da'Rappa was an NPC in one of my Games. A cross between a hardcore gangsta rapper and Rockso the Rock n' Roll Clown. It was hard doing an urban accent while still trying to sound like Axel Rose...

[Arius]

Aw, Evan-happy, you too helped me become defeated. You're right that the atts aren't all equally valuable. Huge debates on Appearance were raged in the ExaltedWiki for 1irst Edition.

[Courier]

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You then are given the problem McGee had: since they are always 5, 10, or 15+ successes ahead of you, you'll find yourself doing whatever any social nova asks you too.

We have that problem anyway. The solution btw is to let all novas spend willpower to negate a social attack (i.e. not make them spend one willpower per succ), and to treat social combat as something other than mind control.

Example: You're an elite fighting another elite who has Mega-App 2.
Effect on you: You think she's really hot and you'd tumble her in a moment in a different setting, but that isn't going to stop her from killing you (and you know it) or you from killing her.

Example: You walk in on a mega-chr/manip who having sex with your girlfriend. He jumps up and says, "it wasn't me".
Effect on you: You laugh good naturedly and try to kill him anyway. You may like him like a brother but you'd try to kill your brother in such a situation too.

Example: Count O tries to talk you into joining the Teragen.
Effect on you: You like him, you believe he believes it, and at the moment he asks you, you'd tell him "yes". 20 minutes later you have serious doubts as too whether you were saying "yes - I'll join", or just "yes - I believe you". (And why didn't you spend a point of willpower and walk away from this guy?)

And so forth.

RE: 5 auto
Giving all stats +5 auto means that you never need to bother with the "contesting mega-stat" rules for domination, etc. That Chick just got 17 succ on her Style roll, a top of the line baseline would average 4. THAT'S why novas are desired by business, etc. A nova CEO might average 20 succ on his Biz roll. Ditto a nova artist, a nova detective, etc.

None of this bull about a mega-stat giving you an attribute beyond any human and then only giving an average of 0.9 for your dodge roll. Anyone with Mega-Dex can dodge anything thrown by any baseline. Of course if you're fighting the SWAT team and they shoot you 12 times and you only dodge 3, well, that's a different problem.

The Aberrant SETTING is built for this. Power of a god, etc.

[jameson (ST)]

I agree with Courier, there's nothing wrong with the system as a whole. Different players and different ST/GMs may cause parts to fall out of whack but the system does work.

To segue a bit from the numbers...

While much has been made of the role/roll play benifits of the mega socials I think courier hit a good point that common sense still riegns supreme, No matter how good a mega-Manip a nova has he cannot, after having been caught with smoking gun in hand, point to the next guys and say "He did it!" Even a baseline policeman will still treat the nova as a possible suspect even if they are convinced that maybe this nova has been setup. As Courier points out it doesn't matter how much you like the nova you catch banging your S.O., if you are inclined to give him/her a beating you will do so, they might be able to convince you to hold back from killing them however depending on (if a PC) how well they role-play (not ROLL) or (if an NPC) how well they ROLL-play (since generally that is the best way to handel those situations).

As for the mega-Mental and mega-Phsyical they should work similarly. A Jigsaw type criminal with even a dot of mega-int should be able to out plan the best Baseline detectives with little trouble. And a nova with just a dot of Mega-dex should be able to strike, dodge, and parry in combat better than any (or almost any) baseline. There are of course limits that must be dealt with to prevent abuse. A Int 1 and Mega Int 1 nova should really be no better than an average baseline but may benifit from certain enhancements as though a prodigy or even a savant (or idiot savant). Similarly a guy with Dex 2 and Mega-Dex 1 will be equally matched with a top notch basline with Dex 5.

My biggest pet peeve with Mega-Strength is a victim of the comics convention, that is your Mega-Str 5 character might be able to pick up a mass equal to that of a dump truck but that doesn't mean that the dump truck can, structually speaking, tolerate being picked up.

As a GM I usually do my best to be reasonable with this kind of thing but if a guy picks up a truck by the bumper he'll probably find the bumper in hand and the truck hitting the ground soon enough.

Lesson: A little common sense goes a long way.

[Mr Fox]

Actually what Courier suggested above is what I meant by spending willpower. Spend one willpower to negate their use of their mega-stat. However, if you aren't smart enough to remove yourself from their presence, they can always try again, and again to convince you until you have no will left to resist. Example, Mega-Charisma/Appearance lust goddess of a nova decides you are her intended bed-warmer for the night. You have a loving wife at home and just stopped by this party to wish your friend a happy birthday. She sets her eyes fluttering in your direction, you spend a willpower point and remember what a loving wife you have and how much that would hurt her and you resist the temptation. If you don't leave at that point there is nothing from stopping her from trying again, she walks over and caresses your arm and compliments you on what strong shoulders you have. another willpower needs to be spent. And so on until you either get smart and get the hell out of there, or you wake up the next morning wondering what the heck happened to your underwear and how you are going to explain to you wife why you never came home the night before.

Now, as for the Strength reality check that Bradford mentioned... The theory as I understand it is that the Mega-Str character is unconsciously using their quantum energies to bind the object in such a way that it doesn't fall apart from being lifted. Physics would not allow someone to pick up a battleship by the bow, and swing it like a club. However, it is supposed to work in this system, because the nova is making it so with their quantum energies. There are lots of things that shouldn't be able to happen according to physics in the game system, but I choose to gloss over them as much as possible while still maintaining as much a feel of reality as possible. In the situation Bradford mentioned, I'd probably allow the truck to be lifted but then afterwards that bumper would fall right off due to the stress it was subjected to. Otherwise, the character would find it hard to do many things just from a size to weight ratio and that would be very limiting to my mind. I agree though, that common sense is the standard to shoot for, just don't let it get in the way of enjoying the game.

[jameson (ST)]

Don't get me wrong I wasn't arguing against the use of willpower to resist something you would be inclined to to (bed a super hot nova chick). I was merely pointing out that you shouldn't have to even consider it if the situation goes against your personality or morals, etc. I.e. no matter how super hot and seductive that nova chick is she's not going to convince a gay man to have sex with her, he's just not interested ... No matter how good an argument you pose if I catch you banging my wife I'm gonna make you pay, you might be able to talk me down from killing you but you simply won't be able to get me to shrug and say "Aw, you're my bud, bang her all you want ..."

As for the truck and it's much abused fender ... well that's just my style vs. your own, in your game I take the actions of our Mega-strong man with a grain of salt. In my own game I play Courier's strength more towards my own style. That's a matter of preference more than anything though, neither of us is right or wrong.

[Mr Fox]

Well, I'd actually argue that the super hot nova chick could convince a gay guy to do it. Even if it is against your nature, if you stay in their presence and give them the opportunity to wear away at your will, then eventually you will give in. It's like brainwashing. A person can be programmed to do things completely against their nature if you spend a long enough time breaking them. The difference is the mega-social nova can do that brainwashing in a much shorter time. You are right though, if you walk in on someone banging your wife you are not likely to give the mega-social nova the chance to wear away at your willpower. He might convince you not to kill him, but you are hardly going to sit around and chat with him after that and become good friends. However, if for some very odd reason you have a compelling reason to not only let him live, but stay in his presence, he would eventually convince you to let bygones be bygones. Hell, he would even convince you to share your wife. Just look at the cults in the world out there and their leaders like David Koresh, he boned peoples wives with their permission and he wasn't even a nova.

[Arius]

And of course, enhancements can actually convince people to do stuff above and beyond a simple WP point resist...

[Charlotte]

Originally Posted By: Arius

I have a feeling in any straight contested roll, regardless of ability used, the one with the higher Mega-ATT wins, contrary to McGee's opinion.

It's not an opinion, it's right there in the book. Page 155, last paragraph of "Competing Mega-Attributes." Now granted, it's stated in wishy-washy terms such as "best use for attribute-to-attribute contests" so it's easy to misinterpret and an ST could choose to have all mega-stat contests turn out always in the higher ranked nova's favor, but if that's the case I'd have to question why they felt the need to put this in the book in the first place if it's not meant to be used.

[Warren Verona]

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We have that problem anyway. The solution btw is to let all novas spend willpower to negate a social attack (i.e. not make them spend one willpower per succ), and to treat social combat as something other than mind control.

Mind control should never have never entered into the picture to begin with. Where do people get this from? Mega-Social attributes enhance your social skills. You become more seductive, more likeable, more convincing but you do not gain control over a target’s thoughts or actions.

They still get a choice. That choice is determined by a contested roll which is described in the book in the ‘Drama’ chapter. Even with an enhancement active if you do not succeed in overcoming the target’s resistance then you fail. Willpower, unless otherwise stated Willpower is usually the attribute that assist’s targets in resisting temptation, compulsion, or urges. Even should you fail the roll, then you have the option to resist any effects by spending a WP.

It’s that easy and always has been. It’s WW 101.

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Example: You're an elite fighting another elite who has Mega-App 2.
Effect on you: You think she's really hot and you'd tumble her in a moment in a different setting, but that isn't going to stop her from killing you (and you know it) or you from killing her.

She’s really hot… +X dice to style rolls. So she’ll look really hot in her eufiber when he whacks her. You think this requires a WP… a WP to resist tits?

The brain’s own survival mechanism would not permit someone to die just because some chick is hot. You want them to stand there in a stupor while you whack em’, buy Dominate.

Since seduction is almost impossible during a combat situation her looks would offer her no assistance what so ever. Since it’s a fight chances are First Impressions are out the window as well.

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Example: You walk in on a mega-chr/manip who having sex with your girlfriend. He jumps up and says, "it wasn't me".
Effect on you: You laugh good naturedly and try to kill him anyway. You may like him like a brother but you'd try to kill your brother in such a situation too.

Fast-Talk: Your Manipulation + Mega-Manipulation + Subterfuge + bonuses from Enhancements VS. Target’s Willpower + Mega-Manipulation.

I assume your talking about Persuader.

Manipulation cannot force someone act outside their nature. Even Hypnotism has difficulty doing that and it’s a Level 1 quantum power. The manipulation attempt would be very difficult and the nova would only receive the 1 bonus success.

How hard was that?

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Example: Count O tries to talk you into joining the Teragen.
Effect on you: You like him, you believe he believes it, and at the moment he asks you, you'd tell him "yes". 20 minutes later you have serious doubts as too whether you were saying "yes - I'll join", or just "yes - I believe you". (And why didn't you spend a point of willpower and walk away from this guy?)

Oration: Count O’s Charisma + Etiquette + bonuses from Enhancements VS. Target’s Willpower + Mega-Manipulation

Possible, if Count O was able to persuade you. There is a reason it provides extra successes. Depending on the faction the target was already loyal to (if any) the ST would decide how many bonus successes he received (1-3). From there an opposed roll would determine the outcome.

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My biggest pet peeve with Mega-Strength is a victim of the comics convention, that is your Mega-Str 5 character might be able to pick up a mass equal to that of a dump truck but that doesn't mean that the dump truck can, structurally speaking, tolerate being picked up.

Page 156.
“Experts on quantum powers speculate that a mega-strong nova unconsciously emits quantum energies to help keep the object together while he lifts it.”