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Aberrant: 2011 - Hina and her position


z-James Walker

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Because I know that some on the board are likely to have a problem with my newest character and her government ties, I wanted to open up this thread for discussion. If a lot of people are upset at what I've done, then I'll change it - I am open for other ways to achieve the same results that don't piss everyone off.

Hina as a UN Ambassador - The Reasoning:

-because she's clearly inflicted with India Syndrome, I wanted her to have a legal protection, and diplomatic immunity does that very well

-as Wargear pointed out to me, the "Dr. Doom" parallels are really fun

-Tuvalu, in real life, is just this impoverished and corrupt to give "their" adopted nova this kind of status

Pros:

-I am a responsible player who is more than willing to be flexible

-this is 2009, which has stopguards against me going crazy with THE POWAH

-I bought the appropriate backgrounds, including Backing (Tuvalu) 4, Influence 4 and Resources 5

-Tuvalu has little to no international influence; the most significant thing their UN ambassador can do is "sell" their UN vote for international aid (not that they've never ever done this with Japan in RL, never, no)

Cons:

-this is the governing body over PU

-Hina considers herself superior to baselines, making her a Terat; gradually, these ties will come out, and I don't know how realistic it would be for a Terat to hold a position on a gov't body who concerns itself with human rights.

Now that I've laid things out, please: discuss. Constructive comments and suggestions are welcome.

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She has oddly colored hair (streaked with the colors of sunset) and eyes (red). She has one dot each in Mega-Manip (The Voice), Mega-Appearance (Awe-Inspiring) and Mega-Charisma (Commanding Presence). The resources come from being born into a wealthy family and getting a trust fund which was hers on her 18th birthday.

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Originally Posted By: Hine-nui-te-pō
-Hina considers herself superior to baselines, making her a Terat; gradually, these ties will come out, and I don't know how realistic it would be for a Terat to hold a position on a gov't body who concerns itself with human rights.


As to Iran, China... They really care about human rights..
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First off, cool idea.

Secondly, as long as you appreciate that international pressure can be brought to bare against Tuvalu if Hine does something too extreme, you are fine by me. Also, remember that international credentials have to be ACCEPTED in order for them to work. Just showing up and saying "I'm an UN Ambassador" isn't enough. It is not impossible for the United States to forbid entry on to their soil though you can get around this with teleport or warp and would only be used in extreme circumstances.

Mind you, I don't think being labelled a terat would cause this to happen. After all, Count Orzaiz travels the globe as a private citizen and he founded the organization.

A further point to consider is that if Hine does something to a nova, they may take it out on Tuvalu in retaliation. How would that be handled?

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My opinions (cuz you knew I had something negative to say smile ):

I'm against any character with Diplomatic Immunity. It's a crutch for saying I can do anything I want and not have to answer for it. And I would liek it nipped in the bud before it causes some trouble later.

I'd like to know why the mods approved such an idea, if they didn't (or weren't informed) they should have the final decision. And the player smacked around a bit for not informing them if this idea.

I'm not going to ask why this girl's family seems to have more money than the nation itself, nor the fact that trust fund's are generally liquidated assets and could not hope to support the character on a consistant 100,000/week salary.

If a player can post for me actual proof that a trustfund can support a character on 100,000/week (for waht I'm assuming is her natural life) I'll retract my statement. So far she has nothing solid that can support that sort of funds.

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On one of the points, Tuvlau is not just an empoverished third world nation.

Tuvalu is THE alpha of the poor, this is a sovereign nation that consists of 9 islands that are being erosioned slowly by the sea and whose main export is sand.

Yes, Sand.

They have a population numbering in the couple thousands, and I'm pretty sure the only reason they don't sell off the islands it's because they have some pride on being a soveriegn nation.

But hey, this are facts from about 4 years ago, feel free to re-check them =D

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Originally Posted By: Catalyst
As to Iran, China... They really care about human rights...

You're right, they don't. But you'd be surprised how much human rights matter when it's baseline vs. nova.

Originally Posted By: Ravenshire
<snip>
Secondly, as long as you appreciate that international pressure can be brought to bare against Tuvalu if Hine does something too extreme, you are fine by me. Also, remember that international credentials have to be ACCEPTED in order for them to work. Just showing up and saying "I'm an UN Ambassador" isn't enough.
<snip>

If I keep this idea, she'd have all the documentation from Tuvalu to prove that she's their ambassador.

Originally Posted By: Ravenshire
A further point to consider is that if Hine does something to a nova, they may take it out on Tuvalu in retaliation. How would that be handled?

That would be handled as best I can. Economic sanctions if they refuse to remove her from her position, followed by further actions. I'd make it as realistic as possible, and would seek the general opinions of the board should the situation occur.

Originally Posted By: Gabriel Law
I'm against any character with Diplomatic Immunity. It's a crutch for saying I can do anything I want and not have to answer for it. And I would liek it nipped in the bud before it causes some trouble later.

Actually, as I explained, it's so that my character has some protection from PU until she's powerful enough to protect herself. I have no intention of using it to commit crimes left and right and get away with it. If I do, then Tuvalu will suffer for it, and have to remove her from power. If she bought her way in, it can be bought out by someone with enough money or influence.

Originally Posted By: Gabriel Law
I'd like to know why the mods approved such an idea, if they didn't (or weren't informed) they should have the final decision. And the player smacked around a bit for not informing them if this idea.

The mods have never approved any concept, only the numbers. They're not Story Tellers, they're bean counters. I've never provided a concept except in the short "concept" box on my character sheet.

Originally Posted By: Gabriel Law
<snip>
If a player can post for me actual proof that a trustfund can support a character on 100,000/week (for what I'm assuming is her natural life) I'll retract my statement. So far she has nothing solid that can support that sort of funds.

No, I will not provide this. I do not have to justify my nova point expenditures to the players in any way, shape or form. I paid the points during character creation, and provided reasons why she has the money now. For those of you not in chat, it started as a trust fund which has been properly invested to maintain. And it is ridiculous that you would demand this. At character creation, I can set my points as I please, so long as I'm within the rules. And 5 Resources are well within the rules. Why are you demanding this with my character? Have you demanded it of every other 2009 nova with 5 Resources?

I provided this forum to talk about the diplomatic immunity issue. I've explained why I wanted it. For those that don't agree with it, please provide something else I can use. Hina has a 3/1 soak, with 1 in her social megas and no mental defense. Unless I want to put her in PU's place for crazy novas(oh, what fun - such compelling writing), then I need something to protect her. I'm open to ideas.

Thanks for all the input so far.
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Quote:
Actually, as I explained, it's so that my character has some protection from PU until she's powerful enough to protect herself. I have no intention of using it to commit crimes left and right and get away with it. If I do, then Tuvalu will suffer for it, and have to remove her from power. If she bought her way in, it can be bought out by someone with enough money or influence.


Alright, I'll conceide to the resources, that was unfair of me. I don't think the story holds water, but I'll not make an issue of it.

HOWEVER! As far as diplomatic immunity goes, nuh uh. I don't take the word of people. Not with all the wing-ding lame ass things that go on around here. Sure you say you won't now, and I suppose I could take your word for it.

But I don't. And won't.

If you don't have to explain your reasoning behind her resources I see no reason you need Diplomantic Immunity to reason off why PU leaves her alone.

I think DI needs to be gone. Asside from that, she's okay.
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Originally Posted By: Vajas
On one of the points, Tuvlau is not just an empoverished third world nation.

Tuvalu is THE alpha of the poor, this is a sovereign nation that consists of 9 islands that are being erosioned slowly by the sea and whose main export is sand.

Yes, Sand.

They have a population numbering in the couple thousands, and I'm pretty sure the only reason they don't sell off the islands it's because they have some pride on being a soveriegn nation.

Actually, I'm somewhat convinced that Tuvalu hasn't sold their islands only because no one will buy their amazing sand-exporting pieces of land. wink

Gabriel Law: This is what I'm having trouble with here. You say my story regarding resources doesn't "hold water" but you haven't been very clear why. Or at least, I don't see that you've been very clear. Why can't someone take a large bundle of money, invest it in the kind of large-turnover investments that you can get with that kind of seed money, and live off the income? Her assets aren't liquid, not after seven years of investment in various places and sources. I fail to see why this is an issue for you.

For the Diplomatic Immunity - forgive me for being so hard-assed but I do like things to make sense. That's why I've done this - I'm trying to find something that will make everyone happy. But if I can't make everyone happy, I'll try to make the majority happy. I'm not here to piss people off, but to have fun, and I don't want to ruin the fun for everyone else, either.

So... any other ideas? That's why I asked for "Creative Criticism" - I don't want you to say, "Don't do that," but to say, "Here's another way to get it.'
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RE: Diplomatic Immunity

Also known as backing 5.

If I wanted to build a member of T2M (the real thing, with resources 5, backing 5, etc), then I'd have something pretty darn close to Diplomatic Immunity.

Oh sure, not formally, charges against me would have their paperwork "lost" rather than "dismissed". DeVries would do the same thing by throwing very expensive lawyers at it. But it still comes down to the same thing.

And I should also say that DI from those islands doesn't carry anywhere near the weight that DI from France would.

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Originally Posted By: Courier
RE: Diplomatic Immunity
Also known as backing 5.

If I wanted to build a member of T2M (the real thing, with resources 5, backing 5, etc), then I'd have something pretty darn close to Diplomatic Immunity.

Oh sure, not formally, charges against me would have their paperwork "lost" rather than "dismissed". DeVries would do the same thing by throwing very expensive lawyers at it. But it still comes down to the same thing.

And I should also say that DI from those islands doesn't carry anywhere near the weight that DI from France would.

The slight difference is that a member of T2M is more like an international cop, generally. And come to think of it, they have immunities granted because of their responsibilities, and they can still be PCs.

Also, after doing some more, in-depth research about DI, I've found out that it's very easy to lose DI if you commit a felony. A small country like Tuvalu couldn't afford to piss off their allies. For example, the US was giving Tuvalu $9 million annually in aid (a number which was supposed to rise) in 1999. In the same year, Australia, New Zealand, UK, Japan and S Korea all help support a $35 million international trust fund for the nation. Hina committing a crime against the US would result in that aid being yanked, something that Tuvalu could not afford. All of these are major US allies, and would all place tremendous fiscal pressure on Tuvalu to revoke the immunity. Tuvalu could even be forced to prosecute her themselves.

In short, DI would not be free rein for her to say or do anything. Revoking it would just be one more step in a criminal prosecution case, and one that would happen without question, in this situation.
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Dr. Doom is the most ignorant example of DI and I really wish you guys would stop using a comic book character as an example.

Dr. Doom is a known criminal, he is not permitted in the U.S. by any means, so running his own counrty doesn't mean squat when you are BANNED.

His diplomatic immunity is a comic joke and should never be used as a basis of comparission.

That said, since Hinbo-Muck-Luck-McDuck or what ever the fuck her names is is a diplomat and NOT the country, it should not br her perview to decide the basis for when/if she has fractured a law.

DI does not apply to felonies only, you can have DI revoked of misdemeanors as well, and with a phone call your DI can be revoked and the character tried and convicted (be it jail time or community service) not just deported with no repercussions for thier actions.

The country should be 'played' by either the moderators, or through a public thread of other players who can and will decide what any punishments should be for this character shout the break any laws in whatever country.

Bare in mind that as a public and political figure all of her actions will be a direct reflection on the country she represents.

Also since Project Utopia is recognized by the UN, and by far has more money than her piss ant country whose major export is cat litter and her family who set her up with the best accountants money can buy apparently could, with a heart beat, strip her DI away at any time.

She is not safe just because "you say so". If you want political intrigue than be sure that you know that as far as canon is concerned you and your DI have no chance in hell.

Oh, and DI is usually only granted while on official business for the nation in question, it usually doens't extend to vacation, small trips, and whatever else can be thought up at the time. Has this been taken into consideration?

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And you all are reacting to the idea that because she could do something bad with with.She will do something bad with it. Fuck it. Think of this way. You drive a car, right? Well if you want to, you can run over people on a side walk. That is bad.

The point I am making it is it does matter that it could lead to someone broke,damaged or bad. Because it hasn't happened yet,and I think it could lead to something good. Right now you guys are only seeing the fact this thing could be used to get her out of the real world level of playing and not seeing that it could trap her in red tape or have other interesting stories in it.

You guys may as well bane cars or something.

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Cat, let me say what I'm sure Hine is thinking right about now: Please, please, please stay off her side.

Gabriel: if you will be so kind as to back the hell off? Thanks. Hine isn't suggesting she be totally immune to prosecution for crimes, or that she be able to get away with anything she pleases. What she IS suggesting is that as the ambassador of a country (even a tiny one), she has a high enough profile and enough initial legal protection to discourage Utopia from just grabbing her in the middle of the night and carting her off to "protective custody".

That's it. That's all she's suggesting.

Now, if you have a problem with that, start having an argument about that. And stop ranting at the top of your lungs about something that's not actually on the table.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Before I forget about this: I've revised Hina's background so that she's not an Ambassador. There are IC and OOC reasons for this; if you wish to know, ask and I'll go into detail. I will say that my number one reason for doing it is the same as Craig's reason for retiring Ultimax.

Now Hina's reasoning will be that her father is powerful enough politically that PU needs a real reason to go after her. So long as she keeps her nose clean, she's fine. If she screws up, they'll land on her like a ton of bricks. She'll still building her temple on Tuvalu, for those interested; the completion date is August 2009.

Let the Teraty fun begin!

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The character was already played with the background in question, and now you're changing it? It was posted in an IC forum and was read by players. Okay. Whatever.

I think that you hint to the fact that she practically owns the nation because they are indebted to her is also a complete crock. As a player you cannot, or should not be permitted to own an entire nation.

However if this practice has become legal, by all means let me know, I can work with it.

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Originally Posted By: Gabriel Law
The character was already played with the background in question, and now you're changing it? It was posted in an IC forum and was read by players. Okay. Whatever.

It was a comment in the Blackburn party. Easily change and easily chalked up to dirty rumor.

Originally Posted By: Gabriel Law
I think that you hint to the fact that she practically owns the nation because they are indebted to her is also a complete crock. As a player you cannot, or should not be permitted to own an entire nation.

She doesn't own an entire nation. They have let her be a citizen there, and build a temple to herself. This is all. She now has less influence than she did before, due to the background change. She's just another nova who thinks she's better than she is. I repeat, she has no real power anywhere.
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Originally Posted By: Gabriel Law
I think that you hint to the fact that she practically owns the nation because they are indebted to her is also a complete crock. As a player you cannot, or should not be permitted to own an entire nation.
So Josh the PC can't claim he's had sex with every woman between the ages of 18 and 40 in South Africa/New York/The United States?

IMHO of course he can. Where we'd run into problems is if I the player claimed that.
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The difference is... Josh can claim it, but he's got nothing to back it up. If someone is an ambassador however, or a public figure, there is most definitely factual information available to the public at large.

As it's been stated in the "Un-purchasing Traits" thread, I don't think you should be able to take a mulligan once you've already used something in-character, regardless of how easily it's removed. That being said, it's not up to me.

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Yes and no. Technically, we can say it all we like. If there's something wrong with my "Kittie" character, for example, but it's a conceptual issue rather than a mechanical one, everybody could rant until the cows came home and the only thing that would merit a change from my end would be courtesy. If I don't feel it's a problem, tough luck.

If it's a mechanical issue, the only thing that can be done, if I refuse to concede to your point, is bring it up to Director 2009 and the mods.

As long as no hard-and-fast rule (i.e. what's stated in the Charter) is broken, people can still do more or less whatever they like. In this case, the "Unpurchasing Traits" rules are still under discussion, so whether people like it or not, Hine's (and everyone else's, should they decide to do something similar) bases are covered.

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You can't, period. On N!Prime players of characters can do and will do as they please regardless of what poeple around them think.

I've pretty much given up. Now I just go with it. Summer for example can cause just about any sort of little problem and say whatever she pleases and will most likely never be removed from Team Tomorrow. Why? Well, because that's just how things flow around here and the best part is, T2Ms lawyers will even get her out of trouble (Backing 4) and there is little most people could say or do about within the Project (Influence 4). Sure an NPC could speak up, but hey, I control my own NPCs within my own fictions, and I can easily just have them roll their eyes, giggle, ground her for a week and all is well.

Ain't life grand?

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