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Joseph OOC

This is a public announcement to the boards

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The cat is, so to speak, out of the bag. I was getting sloppy anyway, which tends to mean I was getting bored, and this way you're getting the words right from the source. "Millie" doesn't really exist in the conventional sense of the world. She (and her girlfriend, and other associated characters) are creations of mine, characters just as much as any of the characters on these boards.

Long time ago, I thought it would make a nice story, about a girl who defeated all odds to be with the woman she loved, it was optimistic, it was bright, it sounded like fun. I ran with it. I set myself up as this "Millicent" here and those of you who have got to know her have heard about her drama-filled long-distance relationship with Sarah, the history of her drug problem and her move to Barcelona to be with her girlfriend. Cute. Not real, but I do hope it at least proved to be hopeful and entertaining, in a way. It certainly lasted much longer than I originally intended, and the revealing of this is almost accidental, but oh well. Life moves on due to this kind of randomness.

I would say I'm sorry for lying to all of you for so long, but I'm not really. It was fun, I don't think the facade was harmful in any way and, well, I'm kind of an amoral bastard, anyway. So, the truth (which, considering this, you may or may not believe) is I do live in Barcelona, I am an 18 year-old university student, I am bisexual, but I'm a guy (although I know those who'd question that last one). My name is Joseph, Joseph Bach Hardie, (you can even google the name if you want, it's real) although I'll be using the screen name of Cain, starting tomorrow, maybe tonight.

Well, well, I'm Cain, nice to meet you.

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Well Cain - or Millie, or Joseph Bach Hardie (which doesn't Google, despite your claim), or whoever you are....

This is the part where I'm supposed to say something pithy and welcome you aboard. I won't be doing that.

You presented your false self and your false life to us in OOC chat for the past year. In that time, people have accepted "you" as a fellow member of the N!Prime community. Some of us have accepted "you" as a friend.

We have talked about all manner of things in "your" life and ours. We have confided things in "you". We have been there to offer emotional support when "your" problems, to celebrate "your" victories, to joke and laugh and cry and otherwise relate to "you" as Millie. We've been with "you" as "you" raved about the many and splendid joys of chocolate. We've reached out helping hands when "Sarah" was away and "you" would start to sink into an emotional pit. We've talked about the many differences in life between wherever we are and "there". We've told "Millie" secrets based on our supposedly similar experiences.

So now, after a year, you let us know that the person we accepted and befriended and cared about doesn't exist... and you're not even sorry? "Amoral bastard" is a fair start, to be followed up by "manipulative jerk".

Hell, I have Asperger's; what's your excuse?

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Originally Posted By: .Cain
The cat is, so to speak, out of the bag. I was getting sloppy anyway, which tends to mean I was getting bored, and this way you're getting the words right from the source. "Millie" doesn't really exist in the conventional sense of the world. She (and her girlfriend, and other associated characters) are creations of mine, characters just as much as any of the characters on these boards.

Long time ago, I thought it would make a nice story, about a girl who defeated all odds to be with the woman she loved, it was optimistic, it was bright, it sounded like fun. I ran with it. I set myself up as this "Millicent" here and those of you who have got to know her have heard about her drama-filled long-distance relationship with Sarah, the history of her drug problem and her move to Barcelona to be with her girlfriend. Cute. Not real, but I do hope it at least proved to be hopeful and entertaining, in a way. It certainly lasted much longer than I originally intended, and the revealing of this is almost accidental, but oh well. Life moves on due to this kind of randomness.

I would say I'm sorry for lying to all of you for so long, but I'm not really. It was fun, I don't think the facade was harmful in any way and, well, I'm kind of an amoral bastard, anyway. So, the truth (which, considering this, you may or may not believe) is I do live in Barcelona, I am an 18 year-old university student, I am bisexual, but I'm a guy (although I know those who'd question that last one). My name is Joseph, Joseph Bach Hardie, (you can even google the name if you want, it's real) although I'll be using the screen name of Cain, starting tomorrow, maybe tonight.

Well, well, I'm Cain, nice to meet you.


Fuck off and die.


Originally Posted By: Wakinyan
No new info here for me.. But I am like the CIA that way.


And if this means what I suspect it means, fuck you too.

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Cain, you're an asshole. Since our entire social relationship was based on a lie, I am discarding it as worthless.

If you wish to begin a new social relationship with me, understand that you begin not from zero, but from below zero, since you've already established that you're an amoral selfish liar.

--Flicker/Mithril/Flea/King Felix

(But my real name is Nova.)

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Pathetic. Given my low opinion of "Millie" and her moral vaccillations, I can't say I'm particularly hurt on my own account, especially considering my own identity issue to get around Wakinyan. PW's right, though. You manipulated people, played on their feelings, and abused both their trust and their compassion, knowing that the person you pretended to be didn't even exist.

So, nice work. You fooled a bunch of kind, open-minded people into thinking you were a decent human being, and apparently did a thorough job of it. I'm impressed with your creativity.

I also hope you contract an obscure, wasting disease that will first render you completely sterile, then utterly destroy your extremities, render you completely paralyzed, and finally melt your brain and internal organs in a slow, debilitating liquification characterized by excruciating pain and abject humiliation.

Enjoy yourself on the boards, pariah.

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My turn, since PW thrust me at the keyboard. My rant was already nicely summed up; I second Craig, PW, Nova and Velvet - completely. Oh, and I add a second "Fuck off and die" to Craig's masterful litany.

As as aside, let me add only this: we have OOC and IC boards, tags and ideals for a reason. When Millie IC had something bad happen to her, it was great drama. When Millie OOC had something bad happen to her, it was a tradegy. The difference is huge.

Millie was not a story to us, and to find out that she was leaves us all deeply hurt. Yes, others have lied about themselves, but none have built an entire life out of nothing, hooked our sympathies and then drop kicked them off a cliff like an unwanted puppy.

Learn IC and OOC, and use it the next time you join an internet community, especially one as small and tight as N!Prime.

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Another person's words can only hurt me if I allow them to. For some reason, totally my own fault, I've let your revelation hurt me. This probably has to due with my condition.

I don't understand why you would want to lie to people the way you have. It is very alien to my upbringing. It is not so much a matter of forgiveness, but a matter of adjusting my perceptions of what you are capable of.

Take care.

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Originally Posted By: Dawn, GM
Millie was not a story to us, and to find out that she was leaves us all deeply hurt.


It does?

Shit. Millie irritated the fuck out of me with her whiney ignorant "I'm a cheating slut, but I still love her" crap anyway. I could only take so much before I really quit giving a shit about her to begin with.

To find out she was fake is like a breath of fresh air, it's like she's dead now and considering most the time she went on I wanted to wring her immature little neck it sort of works out for me. While I'd never wish that sort of thing on anyone, I certainly won't miss her.

I feel like I have closure now. I'm more at peace... almost Zen like.

As for you .Cain, you little shit wipe, I'm inclined to stand behind Flicker. Respect is not easily earned and you threw away a metric fuckton of it with this little stunt. Dawn's point about all of us being a tight group and looking out for each other is very true.

Some of us may have met one another but most of us haven't but each and every one the people that frequent this board I consider a friend and would sincerely trust them with personal feeling if I ever needed advice. From James to Hugin, Carver to Timeslip, Flicker to The Shnod, nowhere will you find a better gathering of listeners and genuinely good-hearted people.

You have a lot of work to do, and lemme tell ya, I don't envy you right now.

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James, I don't think that's the reason it's bothering you. He's a worthless, manipulative bastard who's got no idea how much hell he's going to have to go through if he wants even a shred of the trust and friendship he had... If his post can be believed, anyway. You're entirely justified in feeling hurt by this revelation, because a lot of other people do as well. Not everyone, mind, but some of us just didn't like "Millie" anyway.

Don't worry. It's not just you! *hug*

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You know, I agree with them. I can't continue gaming with someone like you. I quit your little Team Tomorrow game. I apologize to the other players.

Eat shit and Die, you sonovabitch.

Have a totally craptastic day, each and every one from now on.

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Oh, well, this worked out in the worst possible way. Nevertheless, it was interesting. It seems people commit themselves emotionally to people they only really know through words on a screen much more than I ever believed. I do apologize for the truly hurt feelings I seem to have generated. It was never my intention, and I did not predict this level of reaction. Certainly, other times I've played this game people have been much more indifferent.

I still need to better understand people, but as they say, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. This has certainly taught me not to manipulate people so lightly.

With that, I take my leave from this community. I am certain you will all live on much more peacefully this way, and it is no great loss to me. Other projects require my attention.

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So sad, a parting shot is indeed needed.

But to add somethingto this somber and rage filled place.

A) Joseph was the name of the sometimes mentioned "Roommate" of Millie. An Asperger's suffering man [Whome s/he claimed that had gotten over his social problems and only kept the objective view of everything benefit], with an ncredibly high IQ, sex appeal and who Millie would go to. (Do I smell Mary Sue?)

B) I wondered why Millie, someone who called themself a Spanish gal, did not know Spanish. She said it was because of her usage of Catalan during her daily life. But when I got her/him to talk in spanish I noticed the usage of online translators. Discarded it as her attempt to cover up spelling mistakes from rusty spanish.

C) It's sad to say it, but this might be the third time I have fallen in a trap like this. Sad isin't it?

All in All, I guess I was not in here for enough time, or had forged a strong enough bond, to be as hurt as most of you because of this; and even though I have been fooled 3 times already like this, you know what? I won't stop and reexaminate every relationship I have on the internet because of it.

But still, let's join the others in a small chorus of: Fuck you Cain!

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I know many people who like to have alter-ego personas online. I have no problem with someone who does. (Part of the reason I try not to get too emotionally attached to online persons or characters). I would ask of everyone, that they try not to get so bent out of shape about it. I do not think any malice was intended...at least that is my hope. I know that there are some of you who invested emotional energy into 'Millicent'. All I can offer is: Live and learn.

So I guess this is it for the game then..Bummer, I was hoping to see where things went with Ingot. Oh well, take care Cain...I'm still around if you want to continue the T2M game.

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Alright. First off, to quote South Park.

"Whats the big fucking deal, bitch?"

Grant it, I haven't been on this forum for a long time like someothers, but I had gotten to know 'Millie' a lot. We've talked for hours on end for these past two or three days. I was really liking Millie, both as a girl and as a human being.

That having been said, when I found out about 'Millie' not being real, and 'Joseph' being in her place.. I was fine. Crack it up to being an emotionless fuck or whatever you like, but it didn't make me want to ostracize the person or the character. The difference is that I wanted to know who 'Joseph' was more.

I'd understand it more if he said "Omg! I fooled and manipulated you all! Haha! :P Losers!", but he did not. It was not malicious. I understand that so many of you are hurt by this, because you got to know someone to find out they were fake. I like movies. I like roleplaying too. White Rat said it best.

Joseph. Cain. I am way willing to join a T2M game if you need players.

~Warren

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Holy shit! You mean people misrepresent themselves on the internet?! What a total fucking revelation!

Seriously, as the risk of alienating everyone here, Rat and I can't be the only people who just don't give a damn. Considering most of you claim to have a pretty low opinion of Millie to begin with, I have trouble understanding how everyone feels so betrayed and put out by this. I mean, if you were bosom chums, sure, but unless you were friends with Millie or otherwise lay awake at night fretting over her, I really don't see the complaint. I don't know, maybe I wasn't here when Millie put you guys through a ton of shit or something, but this reveal doesn't really affect me one fucking iota.

It's worth nothing that Millie - Joseph - volunteered this information. He wasn't "outed", he got tired of the charade and came clean. If he hadn't told you, none of you would be any the wiser, and none of you would be pissed off and kicking him out of your little scene. Food for thought; was this shady of him? Sure. Does it merit the kind of reaction I'm seeing here? I do not fucking see how. Seriously, guys, overreact much? I'm sure none of you have ever lied about something online, right? Oh no, not you. You're all honest 100% of the time, just like everyone else. Yeah, and everyone in prison is innocent. Sometimes a lie starts innocuous enough and is hard to get out of, you know? People pretend to be other people online all the time; it's one of the chief allures of the medium for some people. And as you get to know people better, at what point is it no longer acceptable to admit "I was playing someone else when we first met, this is the real me, and I'm sorry"?

For all your talk about what a tightly-knit, close, intimate little scene this is, you guys sure are eager to turn your back on someone.

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If I'm asked to side with either the sociopaths or those who are capable of empathy, I'll take the side of empathy every time.

It's empathy that separates us from the animals. We don't have license to do whatever we want to other people.

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Realistically Seph, Troy and Rat. It's just that some people enter a relative "trust" agreement with other people once you start to do collaborative work.

It's something that happens, 'Millie' voluntarily gave information about her life to the people of this site, and asked for advice. This is different than asking about rules, or asking about technical advice on installing a PC component. This inheritly means that the person trusts you enough to revel details about their real life to you.

Granted, to some people when somebody asks "Hey, I cheated on my girl and I want to make it up to her, what should I do?" it's nothing more than the usual Friday night question, but to the others it's a question that not everyone can make.

It's just beyond false pretenses, it's down right manipulation of feelings.

But as I said, I have gone through this before and it won't stop me. So yeah, .Cain if you feel like keeping running your game, I will play.

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After having spoken to you, Flicker, on this subject at length, I thought it might do well to clarify myself somewhat.

Part of what I said was taking the stance of Devil's Advocate. Most of you who know me well know that it's a frequent position of mine.

In all seriousness, however, I am being empathetic, here. With Joseph. Because while what he did was shitty - and make no mistake, it was a pretty shitty, callous thing to do, especially considering the trust people placed in him - it also looks to me like the rest of you are getting ready to crucify the fucker and and declare him officially dead to you. To say that reaction is a bit extreme, I think, is an understatement. Deceiving people about who you are is not the worst thing anybody has done here, not even in recent memory. I will plainly hold up Kris as the example, since everyone gleefully busted his balls a few months ago. And now he's back, and people still talk to him. I don't know the details of what went down there, nor do I want to, but it was enough that people were calling for his being banned, so I reckon it was pretty raw. But people have not turned their back on him. And it seems pretty shitty, to me, for all of you to do just that to Joseph for something that comparably doesn't see like that wicked a thing to do.

So, hey, as much as none of you ever expected this out of me, how 'bout we all circle up like Elvis Costello and show a little fucking peace, love, and understanding?

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Okay. It doesn't bother you. Fine. Congratulations.

It does bother a lot of people here. Neither Rev nor I care about the guy, personally. I'm pissed at him because of the emotional manipulation he used on people I respect and consider friends.

I'll be the first to admit I lied about my identity for a while, because of one of the players here. I still will not interact with him, particularly after his abuse of certain protocols came to light, and I can't understand why others do after the verbal lynching he received.

The difference, however, is that "Joseph" even stated he only 'fessed up because he was caught/getting bored. There was no issue with his conscience, no attempt at apology for what he'd done until after everyone pointed out how truly fucked up it was.

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Originally Posted By: Seph OOC
In all seriousness, however, I am being empathetic, here. With Joseph. Because while what he did was shitty - and make no mistake, it was a pretty shitty, callous thing to do, especially considering the trust people placed in him - it also looks to me like the rest of you are getting ready to crucify the fucker and and declare him officially dead to you. To say that reaction is a bit extreme, I think, is an understatement. Deceiving people about who you are is not the worst thing anybody has done here, not even in recent memory. I will plainly hold up Kris as the example, since everyone gleefully busted his balls a few months ago. And now he's back, and people still talk to him. I don't know the details of what went down there, nor do I want to, but it was enough that people were calling for his being banned, so I reckon it was pretty raw. But people have not turned their back on him. And it seems pretty shitty, to me, for all of you to do just that to Joseph for something that comparably doesn't see like that wicked a thing to do.

Actually, no, I don't talk directly to Waki anymore. I don't even do fictions with him, and my characters don't answer or quote his posts. I do my best to pretend he doesn't exist. I personally disagree with those who do still talk to him, but that's their choice.

Waki was a lech, a pervert and drew a really blurry line between online detective and online stalker. However, Kris never lied about himself, or who he was. His opinion about what he is differs from my perceptions of him (ie, I think he's a borderline pervert and manipulative jerk and he thinks he's sexually explorative and someone who likes to fight for what he wants [if I'm recalling our discussions many moons ago when I cared about him enough to actually talk to him]). Yes, what Kris did was bad, but so is what Joseph did. I'm not going to quantify them; both hurt people, and both hurt people I consider friends. At the end of the day, that's what counts to me.

Joseph, if you're still reading, let me see if I can explain what I mean when I said people here are tight. When people here have had money problems, I offered to loan them the cash, with no expectations that they could pay me back anytime soon. Two people that I met here are located in my 'Family' listing on IM because I feel that close to them. I can talk about things with people here that I can't with some people in real life, because I'm just that comfortable with them. Maybe that makes me a big emotional softie, and if so, that's fine. This whole thread has been about what we are feeling in the face of this news.

Like you mentioned Cain, I've been in other online communities. Despite being in one that required you to use your real name, I didn't feel like those people were my friends. We were all just in the same group. It's not like that at N!Prime. We're friends.

After some thought, I've come to a decision about the M&M game. By the guidelines of this site, I have to let any member here play in my game, assuming they make the character cap cut-off. So you're still in the M&M game. If I have two or more players drop because you're still in the game, I would ask you to please remove yourself. I can't make you, but it would be a nice gesture.

Originally Posted By: Vivi OOC
The difference, however, is that "Joseph" even stated he only 'fessed up because he was caught/getting bored. There was no issue with his conscience, no attempt at apology for what he'd done until after everyone pointed out how truly fucked up it was.

And another second for Vivi... that's what struck the worst cord with me, I believe. He was "getting sloppy anyway, which tends to mean [he] was getting bored." Yeah. That just sucks.

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At this time I need to point out we have some hypocrites on high horses. The people who were first to bitch about this manipulation are some of the ones who have done this very thing in the past on this very site.

Okay sure you did not do it for the reasons Millie (which I assume was sheer amusement)did but so the fuck what. You DID it. It doesn't matter if you did it to be cooler than your real life or to avoid me the perverted registered sex offender of N!prime (according to some people here anyway) or for the sake of a "story".

You still manipulated people and no matter how you want to excuse it you are still being hypocrites. And as normal one person fucks up and blood is in the water to which requires almost everyone to take their shot on here.

I hope the air is breathable up there because those horses are pretty damn high.

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Really Waki? I think I was the first in this thread to bitch; point me to where I've ever done anything even remotely like this.

As for the two bones of contention you really have:

1. Dawn's Ghost character was an IC concealment. Read that again: Ghost was an IC concealment. There was no effort to create a fake OOC persona involved (though you apparently felt the need to hunt and wheedle and pry and dig to determine exactly who was behind the character). As such, that particular note is completely and utterly moot.

2. Velvet did have a separate OOC persona for a while (to avoid you, Lusty McStalker), kept said OOC persona very much at arm's reach with very little in the way of personal chit-chat, and has apologized - sincerely and often - for having done so. That's a bit different from coming in, creating an OOC persona out of whole cloth, bringing fake personal situations and dilemnas and tragedies and whatnot to us for a fracking year, forming relationships under false pretense, and then going, "Oh, that's not really me; experiment over."

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I wonder if we really need to pick these apart but the fact is deceptions are deceptions. The WHOLE reason I pryed in the Ghost situation was because of things like this. In a collabrative writing environment there is no need for deception like that and to a point it is counter productive. As for Vivi I would have much rather her told me to go fuck myself and never talk to her again or have Rev threaten to beat me with a lead pipe for disrespecting his love than again the need for deception.

Ghost was supported OOC she came into the chat granted she did not say much but she was there so existed as a person not related to Carver OOC. Vivi spoke of events and even spoke of visiting Rev and Artemis to the point that Rev even backed it up. Once again I would have rather had him punch me (or her for that matter) in the nose than just get lied too. If had just been a lie to me to keep my Mclustiness at bay that would have been shitty but understandable but it was not it was a lie to EVERYONE.

So now we have Millie who lied made shit up. Created drama for a fictional life and even admitted to it. Maybe if he had said he created the character to avoid me it would have been ok then?

This place has more cliques than a John Hughes movie. Where is Seph aka John Bender when I need him..

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While I am under no illusions as to the commonality of deceipt on the internet I would like to expand on the reasons for my reaction in this case and since Seph brought it up, in some of the other cases as well when it has impacted RPG-Post and the folks here.

In the case of Joseph Hardie (aka Millie, .cain) someone I do not know presented a false face to me. In my case I was never particularly close to Millie so I don't have any sense of loss over not having her to interact with anymore. But what I do have is the situaion in which a perfect stranger decided that fooling me was an entertaining prospect. My existence to him was meaningless outside of that. If I was to offer trust or empathy so much the better because it would have validated his ability to mislead me (and others, I'm speaking personally but I do believe it applies to more than just myself) and shown him what believable character he'd created.

To me that is unacceptable. I don't care that this is the internet and that fraud is rampant. That doesn't make the deception less vile. My expectation for decency isn't lessened simply because I don't see your face. You're still a human being, I'm still a human being. And I expect you to act like one. No, this does not make me naive. This does not make me an idealist. It makes me someone who doesn't think simply being faceless gives a person the excuse to be a jerk. If I was to have met Joseph Hardie in person and found out after more than a year that he'd been playing me the fool my response would be the same. I'd have used the same profanity and I'd still have decided to not interact with him.

In the case of Kris (aka Wakinyan) it is all I can do to treat him civily. I still believe he should have been banned and I am shocked that some people are still willing to interact with him IC because the fact is his behavior OOC is far more important.

Some might think me hypocritical. In chat I'm often vulgar and occasionally offensive. I have also been her for going on five years now. That's who I am. Folks who have been here awhile seem to accept me for who I am and new folks can make that choice as well. If there is ever something that I do that incites others to reject me then that will likely be on my head and not theirs. The reaction to Joseph Hardie isn't extreme because we're overly sensitive flowers but because his behavior is unacceptable.

Thank you for your time.

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Originally Posted By: TroyLloydCampbell
I spoke to Cain this morning.
He will not be returning to the site.

~Warren

Warren, thanks for letting us know.

~Dawn

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I think the issue here is that all relationships are built on Trust. When you break someones trust you jepordize the relationship. When the entire relationship has been a lie, that relationship is entirely broken when the lies are exposed. I'm not at all surprised that so many are feeling betrayed and want nothing more to do with Millie.

The only interaction I've had with Millie is in the T2M game (as Dougal) so it's no big loss for me. I've never invested any personal trust in him, but if I had I'd be very angry.

On the other hand, I've been around these boards for a while now, and though I've never interacted much with people on the personal level, I may change that now, having seen just how close people are after the mess that Millie has caused.

No thanks to Millie/Joseph, my Dougal character is now without a home. If anyone is interested in having him I may just move him to 2017 or 2009 forums (which I've never tried before).

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Okay, you got the bad. You ready for the indeffirent? I could care less what you look like, how you act or whatever in real life. I am not going to ever see you. It is unlikely I will ever see or talk to most of the people from this site.

Your Turing test passed for a wile. You told the truth. Cool. I don't care. You are the same person to me as you were yesterday, or the day before. This is the internet and I do not know if you aren't a dog. Peace outside!

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Alright.

I first met Millie in the chat a few weeks back. I thought that 'she' was a total douche.

It wasn't until Friday or Saturday morning of the past week when we actually started talking. And we talked a lot.

Between when the initial discussion of our interest took place, from when I spoke to him last in the chat before everything got so 'kung ho' bullshit, we must've actually spoken for upwards to six to seven hours. Six to seven hours in a span of a day to two. Thats pretty fucking reasonable.

So Sunday morning rolled around, when Seph_Leo, Velvet, and I were all in the chat together. Daylights time came around, and the chat went down. This lasted for a good twenty to thirty minutes. When I got back in, no one else was around. I exited and entered the room, and still no one. At about 3 or 4 AM, Millie comes in. We speak for another hour or two about shit that we're into, and current shit going on in the forums. He than tells me that he is not really Millie, and that Millie is a character of his. His real name was Joseph.

I thought this was great. I mean, he did a fantastic job at playing it. We kept talking. I wanted to get to know the actual Joseph. Seph came in about a half hour later, we all talked, than Joseph left. Later that day, on my way home from work with Seph, Seph was all like "So Millies really a guy, huh?" This was a fucking shock to me.

Apparently through our entire conversation, Seph_Leo and Velvet were still in the chat. Seph had even been talking to us, and thought we were just ignoring him. They were invisible to us, and I mean that in a literal meaning.

I told Millie about it when I got home, and he made the post so that you guys would hear it from him and not Velvet, if she was even paying attention or going to say anything or not. He could have just as easily denied it.

But he said it.

That is how everything went down, and I wanted to get his permission before I put it up here. That is what took me so long to post this.

I know that this will not change opinions of him, and its not supposed to. Its just what happened.

~War.

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