Aberrant: The Long March - Table Talk: The Long March

[Courier]

Quote:

Actually, if you took the time to study the Genesis timeline you'd find that the overall effect is quite positive. The world is moving toward peace and prosperity and Genesis isn't doing anything to force that to happen. Sure, his actions are having consequences, but he could easily do what the Cabal did and tweak politicians and others to force compliance to a 'right' way, but he isn't doing that. He's using political and social pressure to bring about change. But then everyone has that option by voting. He just has a lot more influence as the Sovereign of a nation.

Oh I just love Mega-Socials.

Quote:

Nope sorry, personally I'm not buying it, the Watcher... has proven to not live up to his own standards.

Yep, I agree with that.

On the other hand that is true for all of us, and that probably is always going to be true for everyone. We have multiple principals, sometimes they conflict.

[jameson (ST)]

Originally Posted By: Courier

On the other hand that is true for all of us, and that probably is always going to be true for everyone. We have multiple principals, sometimes they conflict.

I'm not entirely sure if I can agree to that, I've tried to hold Andrew to some pretty rigorous standards for himself. He's objected to everything the Cabal did that he had a problem with and even won a couple of arguments.

[Adrian Moss]

Fox, in my mind, the Watchers are Villians and in the end of the game, the Villians won.

[Courier]

Justice is frequently at odds with Mercy.

Compassion is frequently at odds with Letting people grow up (i.e. giving them responsibility).

Free will the concept is at odds with getting people to make the right choice. I'm willing to let a child get burned on a hot stove, I'm less willing to let someone burn the world down to prove that some concept is a bad idea.

When is it "just" to mind rape someone into killing himself? Or even to alter someone's mind at all?

We did a ton of that early on. Historically we needed the Great Depression to realize that Banks needed the FDIC, in our reality we adjusted key senators so we got it before the Depression.

In the 1920's and 1930's many people *really* believed Communism and Nazism were *good* things. The Germans had been victimized in the aftermath of the first war, they deserved better. Communism claims to be perfect, just, etc.

Armed with the benefit of hind-sight and perfect knowledge we... mind raped people into doing the right thing. We also used and abused our powers in ways that would be seriously illegal in the 21st century but weren't at the time.

Steve made public Communism's failures (including mass starvation)... meaning he had to let people starve to death to prove a point. Even better when other countries tried similar measures later on he had to do the same thing, or worse, *help* them fail.

We were faced with a child playing with gasoline and matches... except the "child" was an adult who really did have the right to do such things.

[Mr Fox]

Sorry you feel that way Adrian. The watcher's weren't meant to be viewed as villains or heroes. They were just a mystery for you guys to solve, which you did.

My intent was to explore what it meant to have the power to do the things they did and to see what you guys would do with a fraction of that power along the way.

I hoped that the NPCs, the Watchers, would be interesting and that they would make you guys think about the ultimate consequences of having the powers of a nova and one possible outcome of what that would mean. The fact that you guys are having this discussion means I must not have totally failed.

Although, I didn't mean for you to come away with the feeling that the bad guys won, because like I said, I don't view them as Villains.

Of course even Mikey isn't really a bad guy. Even with all he did wrong he still ended up presiding over a very peaceful and prosperous society. It might not be one you'd choose to be part of but then, I wouldn't choose to be part of Communist China, but over 1 billion live there today.

I once attended a Q&A session with Nigel Bennett at a comic con. He is known for playing many different bad guys over the years and he made the point that no bad guy ever really views himself as a bad guy. They all have what they believe to be valid reasons for doing what they do. In their own minds they feel justified.

So basically what I tried to portray with Mikey was that he was a bad person, but in the end he repented of his evil ways and tried to make up for what he had done in his past. (At least the Mikey on your specific timeline did.) Of course you guys, as the victims of his manipulations and having those deeds freshly revealed feel the sting keenly. But remember, he has spent over 250 years trying to atone for what he did. Who is right? Is he an evil villain for something he did 380 years in the past that he is very sorry for and has tried to make up for? Or is he an evil villain because to you it is a fresh wound that hasn't had time to heal from your perspective? To my mind there is not easy answer and I'm pretty pleased that it came across in the story as powerfully as it did to you guys.

[Adrian Moss]

I guess it boils down to prosperity versus justice. In my mind, Michael committed crimes he should have been punished for. That many years had passed and he had done many good things (supposedly) were not the issue, they were mitigating circumstances.

I guess you are saying that his good deads and his remorse outweighed his evil. I don't feel that way.

[jameson (ST)]

I agree with Adrian (no big surprise there eh?) there is no Statute of Limitations for crimes like the ones Mike committed, hey may be a right bastard who has given up his ways but that doesn't mean that he is no longer guilty of heinous crimes.

[Courier]

Assuming there is a statue of limitations, 250 years has to cover it.

I'm not at all sure future society is a *good* thing... although at the same time I'm not sure I could reasonably create anything better and this might just be Future Shock.

IMHO the core problem with Mike is simply his *presence*. My concern is he just "weighs" too much. It's like we have a basketball League made up of 10-year olds but Michael Jordan at his prime is somehow also in there.

Even if everyone plays by the rules, even if the game is "fair", Jordan is still going to end up dominating the league, and I have serious doubts as to whether this is a good thing or not.

Is future reality a group-ish mind because that's what everyone wanted, or is it just that Mike wanted it and he's the center of gravity?

And (punch line time)... all of us are going to end up in the same boat as that. Heck, all of us are going to end up in the watcher's league.

What is Omar going to do with Q10? Steve? Andrew? Joani?

[z028 Riley]

Warning: I am apparently long-winded today. You are forewarned.

This is a debate that isn't just about this game. Philosophers have been grappling with these questions for thousands of years. It usually comes down to whether or not you believe in an ultimate Good and Evil by which people (and their actions) can be judged (btw, not saying there isn't gray areas in here, just that there is in the end things of total Good and things of total Evil), or if you believe in ultimate relativity (ie no Good or Evil, merely perspective).

Personally, I'm a person of perspective. Michael did awful things and should be held accountable for that; he also did wondrous things and should be held accountable for that as well. Those that were hurt from his actions will want their revenge or will forgive him, either way they will act in accordance with their decision. Those that have benefited from him will act in accordance with their attitude towards that. Is someone evil for seeking to harm another, whether from manipulation or from anger? Is someone good for loving another simply because they have little reason to do otherwise?

The Watchers are so far beyond mortal existence and understanding as to be nearly unimaginable. Their relationship to mortals and even to realities is more akin to a force of nature than as individual, discreet beings. They will warp the flow of reality around them no matter where they go, unless they imprison themselves in some lonely Abyss. Are they then evil for interacting with the universes? For seeking to change such places to their desires? Isn't that what we all do, everyday?

The difference between us and creatures like them is merely the scope of our ability to bring into being what we desire. Are we then good because we are nigh unto powerless compared to them? Are they evil simply because they are powerful? Or are they evil because in being powerful they did not decide to abstain from using power beyond that of the lesser creatures around them?

Am I evil if I am more intelligent then those around me but do not refrain from employing that intelligence? What about a natural athlete that uses their talent to its fullest in competition? They have an advantage, is it evil to use it?

As I said, I believe in perspective. I believe that what Michael did violated my personal code of ethics, so from my perspective it would have been an evil decision or action to make myself for I would have been showing myself to be someone I did not wish to be. For Michael? I can't say how he views it; I'm not him. As for how I view him: with nearly four centuries of history to look though and the brief glimpse of the society in which he helped create and holds such high esteem in, I would say that he is currently someone I would view as benevolent. He is not perfect, as his checkered past shows, but he exists in a community that exalts him, that I do not view as evil in its nature, and that does not seek the harm or confinement of its members or of beings that are not members of that community. That is a better society than we have yet produced with any regularity in our own world in regards to peace, opportunity, and freedom.

I understand that for a community to function (whether a family, a neighborhood, a country, or a culture), it must have a standard of acceptable and unacceptable actions for its members. Michael should be held accountable to his community for the actions he has taken and reacted to accordingly. From what I've read in the game, he has and was. They chose to forgive him and we chose to leave the community to go exploring. I'm not saying that individuals do not have the right to react to him, merely that that is personal revenge, not justice. Justice is a function of society.

As for the Watchers, they have no doubt committed great acts that have upheld and violated the personal ethics of all of our characters and of the players themselves. React accordingly and enjoy the opportunity to explore your character and yourself more thoroughly.

A storyteller has no greater applause than to have touched the hearts and minds of his audience; to have caused in them a moment of thought and reflection.

[jameson (ST)]

Andrew with Q10?

honestly after a point I had figured that Andrew would start to look at the deeper meaning of his "hive mind" eventually he'd be forced to either stop using it or realize that he had some level of telepathic type power. What with the potential for mastery of shape shift added in, yeah, eventually Andrew would probably become like the watchers in concept if not execution.

The problem is (as I see it) that Novas, even with Mega Stamina have a set lifespan. Only through Invulnerable(aging) or repeated use of Temporal Manipulation can they become 100% immortal (ageless) and there will always be somebody with the chutzpah to kill them and the power to do so.

For me I see Andrew taking on a similar mission as the watchers (to experience and learn all he can) but I think he would likely tire of cross-time travel and settle down on a single time line. How would that pan out? Well eventually you have to simply give in to the fact that you are who you are and live your life. The watchers did it in their own way Andrew would find his own.

[Mr Fox]

I didn't say he wasn't guilty of them. I was saying that he's spent 250+ years trying to make up for them. The fact that you weren't around during that 250 years doesn't invalidate them. What would you do? Put him on trial for his crimes and punish him even though the person who committed them has spent 250 or more years changing and is no longer the person that did those things?

Every action has consequences. Putting him on trial would might cause a great deal of social upheaval. He is First Citizen after all. The people love and admire him. What happens if you suddenly rip the curtain off of his past and reveal to those billions of people that he is not the person they thought. They start questioning everything. Suddenly there is great turmoil and social upheaval. In your quest for justice you tear apart a peaceful and prosperous society? It might be JUST, but would it be RIGHT? Do you then become evil for the chaos you cause in the service of justice, or are you heroes for righting a 380 year old wrong?

Not easy is it?

[jameson (ST)]

actually it is easy, its easy because it doesn't matter what we do; There will always be a time line where Mike has done what he has done and gotten away with it. If we do anything it is essentially to assuage our own guilt in the deeds we committed (unknowingly) that led Mike to be able to do what he did.

Fact is in the LM universe YOU CANNOT CHANGE ANYTHING. Once you accept that then you can realize that all you can hope to do is make yourself a place to call home.

[z028 Riley]

Jameson,

In that mindset if you accept the model of existence that LM is based from, then it never matters what you do, since you will always do every possible action for you to do. Choices matter only to determine which path of You is the experience that you are having. On that, though, I'd rather experience the paths were I did change things to better suit my desires.

[jameson (ST)]

Kyria,

Lemme quote myself ...

Originally Posted By: ME!

Once you accept that then you can realize that all you can hope to do is make yourself a place to call home.

I agree with you, the best that one can do is to make the most of their life. But in this universe the concept of justice flies right out the window since there will always be a world where that man goes free.

[Owns-The-Night]

Originally Posted By: Mr Fox

I didn't say he wasn't guilty of them. I was saying that he's spent 250+ years trying to make up for them. The fact that you weren't around during that 250 years doesn't invalidate them. What would you do? Put him on trial for his crimes and punish him even though the person who committed them has spent 250 or more years changing and is no longer the person that did those things?

Every action has consequences. Putting him on trial would might cause a great deal of social upheaval. He is First Citizen after all. The people love and admire him. What happens if you suddenly rip the curtain off of his past and reveal to those billions of people that he is not the person they thought. They start questioning everything. Suddenly there is great turmoil and social upheaval. In your quest for justice you tear apart a peaceful and prosperous society? It might be JUST, but would it be RIGHT? Do you then become evil for the chaos you cause in the service of justice, or are you heroes for righting a 380 year old wrong?

Not easy is it?

Just to be provocative. I'll quote a hero of mine:

No. Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never compromise. - Rorschach, Watchmen

[z028 Riley]

Why does that mean justice does not exist? Wouldn't it more mean that justice is not successfully employed in all possible realities?

It may seem like a semantic difference, but I do not believe that something ceases to exist simply because it does not exist uniformly across all possibilities.

[jameson (ST)]

that's certainly one way to go about things, and if we had simply time jumped forward on the one true timeline Andrew would have been the loudest pain in the ass about putting Michael to trial for what he'd done, and what he was still doing. As Steve pointed out, Mike may not be meaning to be a dictator any longer but he's simply such a forceful personality that it cannot be avoided while he is still active in that culture.

[Mr Fox]

Some scientists speculate that this is exactly how our universe might work.

Regardless, I still reject this logic:

Quote:

Fact is in the LM universe YOU CANNOT CHANGE ANYTHING

Fact is that every change you make spawns off a massive new branching tree of timelines. Every positive change you make alters the balance and makes things better for innumberable timelines. Sure you can choose to view it your way and that anything you do is in vain since you ultimately can't change what has already been done. I on the other hand choose the Glass Half Full viewpoint that every good thing you do effects a near infinite amount of future people.

[Mr Fox]

Quote:

As Steve pointed out, Mike may not be meaning to be a dictator any longer but he's simply such a forceful personality that it cannot be avoided while he is still active in that culture.

And you have more right than Michael to make that choice for the people? You have the right to decide for the people that their way of life is not valid simply because Michael exists and influences them?

Not saying that you shouldn't do whatever you think right. I'm just pointing out that your actions would have consequences. One of those consequences is that you are making a decision that might shake that society to it's core and might negatively impact the lives of billions. Isn't that what you are saying Mikey doesn't have the right to be doing? So again I say, Justice isn't always the Right thing to do. In other words I agree with SalmonMax. I believe in Perspective.

BTW, Max, that was very well put.

[jameson (ST)]

last post of the day for me ...

This is basically why I see us having arrived at the breaking point. The cabal is going to splinter apart because we have differing view points on how all of this should play out. Ulric wants revenge, Andrew doesn't care because he feels its pointless, Cody wants to join the watchers, Kyria wants to step far away from her father's shadow, etc etc etc ad nauseum

Anyways I very much enjoyed the more philosophical aspects of this game and though the ending may not have been what everybody wanted I rather enjoyed it. Its like the ending of the Sopranos, it just goes to black and you the viewer are left to decide what you want to have happen.

[Mr Fox]

Yeah, a lot of this game was more about the choices you guys would make than anything else.

Babylon 5 is one of my all time favorite shows. The two major races ask two different questions... Who are you? What do you want?

Who are you? That more than anything else is what this game was about.

The question at the beginning was - Who are the watchers. In the process of discovering that you answered the question of who You are.

I wish I'd been a better StoryTeller that I could have expressed that IC.

[Adrian Moss]

From Ulric's point of view, it isn't about Revenge, but about stopping an Unnatural Force from influencing the multiverse. The Watchers warp reality around them. No matter what pretty pictures they paint, it isn't the natural state of things. In essence, the use of quantum manipulation has to be countered in the all existance.

Ulric has ambitions, to be sure.

[Mr Fox]

Define natural. The universe created them; what makes them less natural than Ulric?

So Ulric is against the use of quantum?

[z028 Riley]

How is it not the natural state? In a multiverse of infinite possibilities, what exactly constitutes the unnatural? Isn't quantum and the ability to manipulate it a natural state in this part of the multiverse?

This isn't a rhetorical question (I know print doesn't always convey intent well), I really am interested in your thoughts on this.

[SalmonMax]

Bear in mind I'm only defending the Watchers.

Michael's another story.

This is how I see it.

He started out powerful and used that power to manipulate and control others to gain more power. This is his 'supervillain' phase. We pretty much all agree that he was doing evil things at this time.

Then he falls in love and softens and realizes his errors. He decides to try to make up for them. How?

...by capitalizing on his vast power to create a peaceful world...uh...that he's in charge of, basically. This is his 'First Citizen' phase.

The Watchmen quote is apt. He did the wrong thing for the right reasons, and part of him doing so makes him impossible to remove without compromising the society he built, and plunging people into chaos and madness and death.

So yeah, in Michael's case, as in Watchmen, the villain won.

In the Watcher's case, they neither win nor lose. Their existences are essentially static. Even in their reincarnating of themselves, what's one lifetime of change and fresh experience compared to -millions of years-? Each new life is a drop in a bucket...something to concentrate here and now, to stop themselves from contemplating the realization that -this isn't going to end-. Ever.

They're actually kind of pathetic, when you think about it. Their immortality; the source of their power, robs their existence of meaning. And so they live on, day by day, century by century. Life by life. But for what? What of consequence is there for them that they haven't already experienced some version of?

But then again, how can they stop? Just throw away all that knowledge, all that time, as if it never existed?

They're walking a narrow line, trying to find a compromise between the two extremes. Trying to keep existence as fresh as they can, but not hitting the 'reset' button.

[z028 Riley]

SalmonMax,

There's philosophic school that basically says that's what happened to 'God' or Godhead. That the creation of the universe and thus the introduction of polarity is an attempt by a singular infinite creature to experience limitation and growth. By that philosophy we are all little pieces of that one Being that is experiencing the rest of itself from our limited perspective. Talk about a house of mirrors!

[Mr Fox]

Yep, that philosophy is part of the premise of Babylon 5. We are the universe trying to understand itself.

[z028 Riley]

"Then I will tell you a great secret, Captain. Perhaps the greatest of all time. The molecules of your body are the same molecules that make up this station, and the nebula outside, that burn inside the stars themselves. We are starstuff. We are the universe made manifest, trying to figure itself out. And as we have both learned, sometimes the universe requires a change of perspective."

--Delenn, Babylon 5: A Distant Star

[SkyLion]

God I love this conversation. I am going to refer people here when talling them about what roleplaying means to me.

I do have a couple of comments:

Quote:

But if you look at it, Joanis life was an illusion. Almost all of it. She had become an idea more than a real person. She held on to that for most of her life ignoring the truth and not giving it much thought because that would lead back to the dark places of her past - and to the Watchers eventually. The Watchers solution to Joani's situation would have her merge with the others and simply forget about it. It's just another experience which adds to the collective - done.

The implication of your post is that we are all somehow Watchers. The Watchers in fact had nothing to do with what happened to Joani. Tat was Michael. Jonai probably is incapable of merging with the Watchers. Meri can because she is already one of them and in time and enough Quantum all of us could. As it is now Cody is the closest one of us able to merge with them because he already has experienced gestalt on a global scale. Still as Fox told me that s a drop in the bucket compared to Universal gestalt and so even Cody is going to have a looong period of aclimation before they actually ascend him to their ranks. His journey really is only just beginning.

Quote:

From Ulric's point of view, it isn't about Revenge, but about stopping an Unnatural Force from influencing the multiverse.

Huh? The Watchers are as "natural" as anything else that has manifested from the Universes existence. they are as much a product of their environment as we are and Michael was. Others have already said all this pretty well IMO...

Micahel was/is a Sphynx. In abby Sphynx theory says that when beings (novas) achieve a certain level of intelligence and awareness they simply *cannot* help but manipulate the world around them. Just as that gifted athlete that was mentioned earlier or even a human baby when it starts to recognize its powers and dominion over its environment for the first time.

And we are no different. Steve was often saying that from societies standpoint WE were doing the evil black hat thngs. WE were Sphynxes and Michael just outsphynxed us. We had foreknowledge of a world at war and the power and ability to change things. Given our persepctive we couldn't NOT take action...and thus is the riddle of the Sphynx. the only way us, or Michael or the Watchers could have "abstained" from doing what we all did was as someone mentioned to lock ourselves out of reality into an abyss...which is counter to the nature of life being involved in life (at whatever level of power/consciousnees).

I am sad that Ulric is so filed with hate over the nature of rality and the nature of the beings that inhabit it and I am sad that he is going to dedicate himself to revenge...a very dark path and not at all Justice as other have pointed out.

otherwise i am pretty much in total agreement with Kyria and the relativity of perspective.

[z028 Riley]

Like Sky, this kind of discussion and exploration of self (whether through player dialogue or character portrayal) is exactly why I RP and why I love RP. Thank you all for jumping in on this with your opinions and reactions!

We won't all agree, which I think is part of what makes our lives interesting and the discussion worth having. Learning what and why others think and feel as they do is one of the most wondrous experiences in my life. I hope it is for the rest of you as well.

Aww, now I'm getting sappy.

[Adrian Moss]

As Ulric sees it, it is about the course of events that would have happened had not Quantum beings intervened are Natural. When Quantum powered idividual's intervene, things enter an unnatual state.

As I see it, the Watchers are God-like beings as Fox has envisioned them. Game over. My opinion of them doesn't matter.

I don't see Ulric accepting that. It's not in his personality to lie down and take it. So, he plans to fight the Watchers. He knows he's in it for the long haul. It is not about hate, because he knows hate would burn him out way before he accomplished his goal. It is about what he sees as a fundemental flaw in the design of the Multiverse. They need to be opposed and wiped out in the same way you fight a virus, or cancer.

Now, if you find the Watchers actions justifiable, if not out-right good, you won't see it Ulric's way.

The Babylon quote about we are all God/the Universe trying to make sense of the itself is one of my all-time favorites.

Joani, Ulric would spend time with Joani until she died. He would find a way to achieve immortality while with her. Once she dies, he will not love another.

[SkyLion]

And yet as I understand it, quantum and psionic potential are embedded in human DNA. Quantum abilities ARE natural and a natural part of the evolution of the species. It cannot be helped unless Ulric's plan involves learing as much as Andrew about genetics, travelig back to the source point of all realities and erasing that genetic potential from life itself. Which of course would be monstrous and tyrannical in its own way..

The Dune series is bascially about something similar. In the later books when Paul Atreides mutates into a godlike being with ultimate preesscience he basically engineers war and strife and sets himself up in the role of master villain so that everyone hates him. He did this so that he wold ultimately be destroyed along with the very protential for precognition...because he knew that as long as ANYONE was able to see the future, there would be no free will and tyrnats would always manifest. he became the ultimate tyrant so that mankind would then forever after be free of tyrants.

[Adrian Moss]

Ulric is convinced, and would find it diffcult to believe otherwise, that the Watchers had something to do with that. This time line, after all, doesn't seem to have the gene. Going with the belief that Quantum use is unnatural, it is the quantum using timelines that are abnormal and the current timeline that is the normal.

Now, once the Watchers are dealt with, Ulric would be free to re-examine the situation, but his premise is strongly rooted.

It seems to me that you are tending to look at this current world and go "oohhh" because people appear happy and prosperous when the reality is that they have little choice to be anything else. Is free-will intact because the people have been bribed? Ulric doesn't think so.

[Mr Fox]

Appear happy and prosperous? Would they appear more happy and prosperous if they had come to the same situation without Michael's influence?

We in the United States are in the situation we are in because 233 years ago some people made some decisions that lead to the situation we have now. Are we without free will because our ancestors made the choices they made? The people on that timeline spent 300 years getting to where they are now. Who is Ulric to tell them they should be somewhere else? They chose to follow Michael, he didn't manipulate 9 billion minds. Sure he shaped things to his liking, but the people willingly followed. He didn't force them to become what they became.

Oh, and for the record. A good deal of that timeline is based off what I am predicting for our on future. We are less than 20 years away from something similar to the plugged in nature of the Augs. Mark my words. It is coming in our reality, it's just a matter of time. We already have PDA and Iphone's that we use to keep track of appointments and look up websites from anywhere and GPS, etc. I've been waiting for years to ditch my phone, pda and mp3 player and replace them with a single device. In time the next step will be to plug in directly and ditch the devices altogether and have direct neural uplinks to the net or whatever replaces the net.

[z028 Riley]

No kidding, Fox.

http://www.emotiv.com/

BCI headset (Brain Computer Interface). They come out this year at $300 a pop. Less than the Wii when it first came out.

[Adrian Moss]

Fox, in answer to your first question: Yes. They made the choices.

Secondly: I've been hearing that since the late eighties. Sure, devices are getting smaller, but that's not the same as a direct brain interface.

Thirdly: The problem with a phone in your head is that you can't ignore the people you don't want to talk to. You are never 'not home'.

Lastly, either we give up driving for ourselves, or we thin out the gene pool. We can't drive safetly now with cell phones.

[SkyLion]

-When the Watchers are dealt with-

This made me laugh. How are you going to deal with q10 if you don't have q10? And when you do how are you any better?

If it is so unnatural and unfair then Ulric should ask that they remove his powers and make him a mortal baseline and he can deal with reality on that level. Otherwise Ulric is using his powers in the same way that he apparently abhors.

[Adrian Moss]

You just figured this out?

Seriously, Ulric doubts anyone else on the team feels the way he does, so he feels it falls to him and him alone to defeat the Watchers. How does he think this is even possible? There is really only one Watcher from which the other's spawned, so he feels that he too has a chance to oppose them. He feels that it is his mind, intellect, and drive against one other.

Maybe he has a shot. Maybe he doesn't. We will never know.

Actually, Fox could tell us. It's his game.

[SkyLion]

Thing is, since every reality is an actuality, there are an infinite of realities where Ulric would succeed and Infinite ones where he would fail. So in a way he wuld always fail because on some reality the Watcher will exist and become the Watcher(s). Unless Ulrix finds a way to unweave reality..

My brain is hurting now.

And since all things exist so does free will...the freedom to choose/create the reality/choices you make...

We are getting into paradox territory.

[z028 Riley]

Yay! Paradox means it's real. This is truth. Unless of course it isn't.