Aberrant: Nova Reality - OCC: The problem with the Knights

[z-Sean McCline]

The Knights have at least one major problem that I have seen recur again and again. A character waltzes into our city, commits crimes with impunity (Edward being a notable exception here, though he was seeking death), and we are tied by consent.

I would like to propose the following. If you are entering Chicago and plan to commit a crime, that you are bound to the following rules:

• You must waive character consent up to, but not including, character death. This waiving will carry though arrest, arraignment, the trial, sentencing and carrying out the sentence (IL has suspended their death penalty, so that's not an issue). Trial and sentencing will be carried out by a vote from the board as a whole.

• You must submit a character sheet so that things can be done fairly, by the numbers.

• All fictions where the Knights will be involved will be posted in the Nova Reality, not the fiction discussion.

• All fictions involving criminal activity in Chicago will automatically be considered non-canon by the Knights, and those fictions will not be responded to or acknowledged.

And now... let the discussion (or flame wars) begin.

[Sandcaster]

Sounds fine by me. You wanna stir up stuff in on the WCK's turf, you commit to the consequences. 'Nuff said.

[Origami]

-deleted-

[Gerald Haney]

If the Knights insist on consent being waived (a good idea I feel, and fair to the players who are in the Knights) and demand character sheets then the Knights whould live up to the same conditions.

[The White Rat]

While I agree with the merits behind the motion put forth by Sean, I also agree with Gerald.

WR has been one of the criminal elements that the Knights have had to deal with. In the past, neither the Knights or WR could act with impunity towards the other characters. Mutual consent was required regarding the outcome of the conflict. Believe me, WR would have enjoyed killing off a few Knights. Unfortunately, due to the medium in which we interact, our options are limited.

To sign a waiver, would mean that the criminal element gains a few benefits. While he could be killed or captured, he can also do the same. Because he is not constrained by any laws or morality, he can assassinate and bomb and ambush with impunity. This makes the probability, of one (or more) Knight(s) biting the dust before the criminal does, very high. Unfortunately, with egos the way they are, most people would not be willing to see their characters die.

The actual combat would also need to be role played with die rolls.

How many people would be willing to leave the realm of pure fiction, and add an element of chance, around which the fiction is written. I myself could live within such parameters.

As for needing character sheets, I agree. If you are going to put other characters' survival in jeopardy, you have to have a character to risk. Writing a character with the powers and abilities of Pax or Mal is also not conducive to such a proposal. If you are going to put a character on the chopping block, you want to make sure that the other person has an actual character, that they nursed from infancy, to risk. Going up against a created 200+ NP Nova, under such conditions, is suicidal. Besides, it takes all the fun out of the conflict.

I suppose we could all create new characters that we could kill off. Characters in which we have invested little.

[Velvet]

I agree, for the most part. Character sheets would definitely need to be required for anyone and everyone involved, and if you're playing, you should willingly give up consent for anything to happen to your character, save being killed. Otherwise, there's really no sense of drama to the story.

However, on Sean's last point, I'm a bit confused. Could you clarify, please?

,,

Quote:

"All fictions involving criminal activity in Chicago will automatically be considered non-canon by the Knights, and those fictions will not be responded to or acknowledged."

That seems to be a bit of a blanket statement. Does that apply to all criminal activity, or nova v. nova crime, nova v. baseline crime, etc.? Using Tessio as an example (sorry, BT)- he's a nova criminal based in Chicago, technically speaking. He kills people for a mob boss. Is he forbidden from writing fictions about said profession without the express permission of the Knights' players, or only fictions which involve or directly affect the Knights?

[Good Alice]

Oddly enough aside form the character sheat, This owuld not have changed one thing in Vox's story.

[Wakinyan]

I have huge problems with this.. Much of which have already been pointed out.

If you want to 'approve' of all criminal activity in the city then you are basically claiming that Chicago is 'your' city. Meaning anything that happens in it is under 'your' (meaning Knights) total control.

I have issue with the knights to begin with. A dozen (or more) Novas half or more are Quantum 5 (Or one six). Working for a city for reasons other than financial. I am hardly one that can bitch about power levels but let's be realistic. That is more power than the average T2M branch has. Do I oppose the knights? Not really but there has to be some rules set.

Character sheets. This cannot work at all unless every Knight who participates has a sheet.

Consent waivers going both ways. You want to put a stop to a goings on so be it. But face the fact that there are going to be casualties on both sides of a conflict. Perhaps even more so on the knights since they are about saving civilian and property where as the offender might not.

This idea in concept isn't terrible but unless simply giving up ownership of a major city to a group of players (who can approve or veto any story that takes place within it)has to come up with better base rules than this.

[Access]

ahem...2 sixes.

Whatever is decided really needs to float both ways. Even if consent is defenestrated for the city of Chicago and the Windy City Knights, there needs to be much discussion on exactly how something will go down, and it does need to be kept fair to the players and the characters.

[Warren Verona]

The Knights are not Omni-Present in Chicago. Threfore, I will not ever request 'permission' to have Revenant pick a pocket or steal an item.

Hell, even a bar brawl or shoot out. You guys are not, can not, and should not at any point in time think that just cuz someone breaks wind in Chicago that you can teleport onto the scene. Petty crimes happen, this isn't a perfect world.

Reven is just as much a criminal as he is a saint. If I stir up trouble I'm fair enough to notify the Knights that they may include a few members in the story. But aside from that, you guys aren't everywhere. Considering more than half your number was recently at a Pow Wow in South Dakota.

My character is a criminal in Chicago, a rather good one, and in my opinion (when it comes to other players) a rather considerate one. Declare a single fic of mine non-canon just cuz the Knights didn't get thier time in the spot light to back me into a corner, knowing that I'll have to surrender because I can't take all of em on at once, an it'll be the last fic I post.

Especially when you have members who walk through the door with power levels like Cade. That's just crap, you force people to simply just play by yout rules, quit, or play a criminal who is just a little whipping boy for the WCK.

Tell ya what, I'll boost Reven to Cade's level of power... just so I feel it's fair if this lil idea falls through.

Considering Character Sheets:

"You must submit a character sheet so that things can be done fairly, by the numbers."

This is stupid.

Seriously. Would it matter? When 8 of you pop onto the scene no one would win anyways, and if you did lose a new member would pop up next week specifically designed to handle the character in question. Or another Cade would sign up.

The only Knight on the WCK team that is in anyway practical is Sandcaster. The rest are overpowered juggernaughts.

And don't give me the "Well, look how powerful Revenant is!" That's crap. He's a potent nova, but he's a low soak, designed to bleed once in awhile. I prfer to have more fun when I'm not invulnerable.

Until every WCK memeber has a posted character sheet, Reven will be rendered 'immune' to the WCK. I post one for him for the sake of fair play, since not all of you have done that, the Knights have shown that they have no desire to 'Play Fair'.

Post Sheets. Then we'll talk.

[Wakinyan]

What is needed here is a neutral mediator for events. Like a... ST maybe... Hmmmm..

[Good Alice]

Here is something if I can show you a character sheet that is prefectly legal, and you can't stop form committing a crime,and explained how and why the WCK would be powerless to stop it. Would you consider that non-canon if they did so?

[Machina]

Quote:

Originally posted by Wakinyan:
What is needed here is a neutral mediator for events. Like a... ST maybe... Hmmmm..

Yeah, or maybe they could settle it by being reasonable and acting like fucking adults.

Sic semper rules lawyers!!

[Tekk One]

I have been guilty of this while playing Tekk, but I think what Sean propsed could work. The WCK member's who don't have posted sheets is the only thing really that I would change.

[Sandcaster]

Quote:

Originally posted by Good Alice:
Here is something if I can show you a character sheet that is prefectly legal, and you can't stop form committing a crime,and explained how and why the WCK would be powerless to stop it. Would you consider that non-canon if they did so?

Feel free. Go ahead and bring in yon ubercheeze unstoppable Deus Ex Machina. Have said character stomp through Chicago, kicking sand in the Knights' faces with utter impunity.

Then write some nice fiction detailing how Proteus and/or the Directive now consider said D.E.M. to be a top-level threat and come hunting it down. Because if you decide that this monstrosity is going to waltz into Chi-town, take down a building or three, wipe the floor with the Knights, and then suffer no rammifications for its actions, you're going to find yourself voted non-canon by one hell of a lot more players than just those who have WCK characters.

[The White Rat]

Amen Rev,

WR is a viscous, sadistic and sociopathic Nova who is also not invulnerable. While he has power, it is not close to being earth shattering. If he were to be surprised he could be killed by just a few blows. Preparation is the key to his survival.

The Knights have to produce reasonable character sheets if they want to finally rid the world of a menace like WR. Until then, whole families of innocent humans will die horrible and gruesome deaths.

[Sandcaster]

Quote:

Originally posted by Wakinyan:
I have huge problems with this.. Much of which have already been pointed out.

If you want to 'approve' of all criminal activity in the city then you are basically claiming that Chicago is 'your' city. Meaning anything that happens in it is under 'your' (meaning Knights) total control.

I have issue with the knights to begin with. A dozen (or more) Novas half or more are Quantum 5 (Or one six). Working for a city for reasons other than financial. I am hardly one that can bitch about power levels but let's be realistic. That is more power than the average T2M branch has. Do I oppose the knights? Not really but there has to be some rules set.

Character sheets. This cannot work at all unless every Knight who participates has a sheet.

Consent waivers going both ways. You want to put a stop to a goings on so be it. But face the fact that there are going to be casualties on both sides of a conflict. Perhaps even more so on the knights since they are about saving civilian and property where as the offender might not.

This idea in concept isn't terrible but unless simply giving up ownership of a major city to a group of players (who can approve or veto any story that takes place within it)has to come up with better base rules than this.

1. Yes, both the number of novas and the strength of those novas in the WCK is absolutely disgustingly sick. That said, it's there, it's not going to go away, and by dint of such, yes: Chicago is effectively "our" city. Maybe it sucks, but that's how it is. Cope.

2. I'm fully in favor of everyone posting a character sheet for every character on this board. Simply put, no matter how much we try to say that this isn't an actual game... it is. Our characters interact and throw around dice pools. We pull up dice rollers. It's a game; put up a fracking sheet, people.

3. Consent waivers do indeed work both ways, and I believe such was implied. If not, than I'll say it right now: consent waivers work both ways.

4. The fact of the matter is, ownership of a major city has already been given up to a major group who has veto rights over any story within it - there are twelve players with characters on the Knights (one way or another), and that's enough to force a veto. This just acknowledges the obvious so that we don't wind up haggling over it later.

[Sandcaster]

Quote:

Originally posted by Revenant:
...lots of stuff...

This isn't about the Knights being omnipresent, stopping every little pickpocketting that enters their holy domain. It's about novas waltzing into town, stirring up major shit, then being completely immune to arrest or injury because they refuse consent. Considering the composition of the Knights, it's unrealistic in the extreme, it breaks suspension of disbelief in a major way, and it is a problem.

Yes, the power level of some of the characters on the Knights is sickening. But you know what? The power level of the characters on N!Prime as a whole is sickening. We've got players here that think absolutely nothing of building multi-hundred nova point creatures with multiple 5-dot Mega-Attributes, lists of Enhancements that look like a reference book, banks of Powers that compare to entire T2M field teams, more soak than the shields of NCC-1701D Enterprise, and more health levels than the combined population of Rhode Island. I've considered (and get ill at the though every time I consider it) bulking up Sandcaster so that there's some sort of reason that she would ever be accepted as a team-leader by these titans. Hell, I'm halfway considering, after a talk in chat last night, having Ptesan-Wi apply for Psi 6 next year, just so that she remains relevant in this crowd of Odins and Heras; how sick is that?!? It's disgusting, but we're stuck with it.

That said, Sandcaster is not the only Knight with a non-ridiculous sheet. Check out Sean's, or Access', or Clark's for that matter.

Regarding character sheets: see my response to Wakinyan above.

[Hugin]

Well, let's look at precendent. We've had situations where a single character has expressed the desire that nothing happen in an entire city because said city was under his control (Preston). Since an unpleasent incident I've not touched Boston except for one small attempt to mend fences. I don't think anyone else has complained at the level of protection expected for Boston so why are we complaining about the protection for Chicago? If you don't want to deal with it, don't deal with Chicago.

The only reason to go to Chicago and have your Nova act the fool is:

1. You want to interact with the characters in the Knights and you're going to be polite enought to work out the story details beforehand. If you all don't agree it doesn't happen.

or

2. You want to be able to shake your ass in front of the Knights and deny consent if anything happens other than your character getting away scot free.

In option number two you're being a dick and screw you.

There are about a dozen Novas on the Knights played by around eight players. That's a hefty portion of the board that has decided to devote their character's time and energy to that one place. Why not respect that?

[Singularity]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sandcaster:
Simply put, no matter how much we try to say that this isn't an actual game... it is. Our characters interact and throw around dice pools. We pull up dice rollers. It's a game; put up a fracking sheet, people.

There is no storyteller, nor are there players, nor is there a planned plot created by a storyteller for the players to use, nor is there a requirement that sheets are to be used, and (most importantly) this isn't necessarily germane to the discussion.

Hugin has the right of it; it's a question of respect and it's a two-way street.

[Warren Verona]

Hugin:

I agree whole-heartedly Hugin. Which is why, as I said, I'm respectful about causing trouble in their domain. If I plan on stirring up major shit I allow them to send a player into the fic.

Why wouldn't I?

I'm sorry if everyone is not that respectful to them, but that's not my problem, and I'm not about to suffer for it as a result.

We've discussed before the level of power, and as players that we reserve the right to exclude those players from fics that stand outside the boundaries of what is acceptable in their fics. That said, people should tally (and note) somewhere on their character sheet the amount of NPs that character is made with. The writer of the fiction then reserves the right to block those players from entering his fic this includes Knights.

It's like sending eight 25th level D&D Heroes up against a single 11th - 15th level PC. I sure as hell wouldn't appreciate it at my gaming table, why should I have to put up with it here?

Obviously, for social interactions, why do we need sheets right? So this would still permit player to do interactive fictions just not rough and tumble.

Hey, ya wanna play a 250+ invulnerable bruiser who doesn’t remember what it's like to take a health level of damage that's fine, just don't do it in my fics.

Sandcaster

I know that not all of the Knights are insanely powerful. But have the potential to be. Sean was completely rewritten to 'better suit his level of power' once already after battling Waki. Gee, if we all had that luxury we'd all be at Long's level of power by now.

The ones that aren't uber powerful usually aren't doing the field missions, they're staying the base making sure it's a neigh impregnable fortress that can withstand any and all attempts to breech it, yet can still be breeched at any time the Knights feel it's dramatically appropriate. As long as other players who do not have Knight characters attempt it.

General Rant

I suppose, however, that until all Knights have posted character sheets, most of these arguments are moot.

We, as players, will need a fully updated and complete Knights roster that includes all active and reserve members.

To be clear, I am not attacking any one character or group of characters. I am stating my opinions on the matters brought up by Sean and citing examples of why some players may feel that this just isn't a 'fair' play.

I'm willing to work to make it into something everyone can agree on, but as of right now, it still needs a lot of work.

[The White Rat]

As someone who has tangled with the Knights, I respect their domain over Chicago. That's why in my latest fic, I am being careful of drawing any attention of the Knights. They will get involved if his presence is known, or his location discovered. Chicago is their place.

That being said however, they do have some characters that are uber-powerful, and make it so that any actions not in Chi-towns best interest are suicidal. The Knights are so powerful that Chicago is isulated from harm.

Some of us wish to interact and conflict with 'the good guys'. Unfortunately, they are all concentrated in Chicago. So what is to be done?

1. I can be an arch villain, I just have to write fictions alone, where any conflicts are with NPC's, and lack drama.

or

2. I can be an arch villain who pops his head out of his hole just to get it nuked by Novas so powerful and mysterious (no character sheet) that my (and other) Novas might as well be baselines.

I started WR as a 35 point Nova. In the year since he started, he has gained ~160 XP.

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by The White Rat:


1. I can be an arch villain, I just have to write fictions alone, where any conflicts are with NPC's, and lack drama.

I'm going to cry bullshit on that one, Rat. A well written story doesn't require two individuals participating in the story. It requires a well written story. You can do that with NPCs. I've read some great stories here where the opponents or antagonists in the piece were all NPCs.

[The White Rat]

Hugin: I understand that a well written story doesn't require two individuals. It would just be nice to interact with opponents who are PC's on occasion.

[Jager]

In case it was unclear:

- I am against enforced character sheets in any way shape, power, or form. I don't want to total up Nova Points, I want to know who the other character is and what they do. It is not the same thing.

- I would like it if players realized their characters operated within a vast world not (totally) dominated by White Wolf silliness. Actions have consequences, just like in the real world.

- I would hope that a group of adults could get together and hash out a story arch that made sense, was fun to read, and pushed the continuity along.

You don't want your Bad-Ass to be arrested? Fine. Get used to the fact that you've not only pissed off the WCK, but the United States Federal Government, too. You aren't going to places like the Phoenix Room, or any other swank, legal party ... ever again. You are now a wanted terrorist and criminal of the highest order.

All I am asking for is a bit of co-operation and consideration.

[Good Alice]

It is not about raw power. It is about being more evil than and willing to go over the top, build ing fail safes, back up and counter measures. The idea is that you can't stop a truly dedicated, and perverse mind from doing wrong if you wish to maintain a free society. SO you want WCK to make Chicago a jail, you can. Then let heads roll as all of T2M, Big D and and the US Armed forces comes down hard on WCK and rescues the Chicago from it's evil overlords TM.

Let's put few ideas out.

One YT can walk in Chicago, not look like a nova, not look like herself. Buy chlorine, Bleach, condoms. Go on to a tall building and start throwing these chemical weapons. She only need to throw a few of them to really scare people, and kill a few people. With in the time WCK know anything is happening she is in Mexico.

She can with various cell, and or wireless devises make IEDs send them out using UPS,FedeX..ETC and have some them go off if they get a signal, if they don't, have them be on timers, when any number of other X factors happen.

Three YT, is all but invisible to all forms of dictation via the use of Quantum. This means precoging her is just not going to happen. She could just walk into a bar and start killing people, and by the time 911 is put threw have killed enough people to make the point.

You guys are simply saying stay out of our sand box, cause we want to be the biggest kids on the block. YT can be physically beat up at least three of the novas in WCKs. That is not the point. The point is that she is damned good at isometric warfare she has been doing for around 17 years now, more than 10 of those years as a nova.

She also deeply believes that humans are out dated models and should most likely should be purged form the earth. She would hit Chicago, because it si such a "safe" city. With all it's good house novas. She would want to drive the point that even in a city with so many novas acting like police the law will not stop someone who is willing take up the cause.It would also show people if I could do in in Chicago, don't you think you could do it in say anywhere else cause no just about no where else will be as hard to crack as Chicago.

So, yes the fact you put so many novas defending the city means the city is not a safe you want to think it is, or you could make you characters in Jailers.

This not souly about waht YT can do. I am using YT as point of refrenace because I cna control ehr actions. Any nuber of other novas could do things like this.I just happen to know thsi what YT does for a living.

[z-Sean McCline]

Hugin, Singularity and Revenant are all correct, and I was wrong in my idea. This is not a game; it's a shared universe. The key here is respect, and I don't feel that the Knights are given enough respect.

It was never my intention to stop Reven from picking pockets, or for Blackthorn from carrying out his mafia activities. This was meant to curtail things like what Good Alice described above for YT or White Rat's Big, Master Plan ™. Those of us who play Knights put effort into our characters and being a Knight, as much as WR puts into his character and plans. And I know I'm not the only Knight tired of having our hands tied.

How about this idea, instead? If you're stirring up major shit in Chicago, you work with the Knights before you start your fiction. We work out an outline, who is on duty, which Knight you tangle with first, who comes in when in the fiction. This would simulate the fact that not every Knight can come to every fight; some get there just for clean-up. We can work out locations, tactics, powers used and their effect on the environment, possible back-up for both sides and basically stop this crazy free-for-all that has defined these encounters up to date.

And please don't insult anyone's intelligence by asking me to define major shit. I think everyone here can look to past examples and see what major fights look like.

Not showing the Knights the respect of allowing them to look competant in their jurisdiction will mean that they don't have to acknowledge your fiction as actually being canon.

Just to repeat, this does not and was never intended to cover minor criminals such as Revenant or Blackthorn or even to cover major criminals such as Wakinyan or White Rat (only used because both have been hostile to or in Chicago before) committing minor crimes. I apologize to anyone who took this as a personal insult. This suggestion is meant to function as Edward's fight did, with perhaps even more organization; maybe Edward could have gone a few rounds with Sean or Vali before the big guns arrived.

Basically, I'm asking for a bit of cooperation and respect from the "villians" on the board. In exchange, I'm more than willing to give you the same in return, and treat your evil mastermind with all the respect he or she deserves.

[Sandcaster]

Sure, YT can do the above. YT can also become hunted for her troubles. If you plan to waltz in, play this shit with YT, then waltz away and carry on as if nothing has happened, I'll gladly lead the charge in declaring the fic non-canon. If instead you waltz in, pull your shit, waltz out and then find yourself hunted by the Knights, Utopia-Proteus and/or the Directive (amongst others), you've got something viable.

[Warren Verona]

That assumes you Knights even know it's happening. Considering not a single person signed on has any formal legal or invetigative back ground, what qualifies you to solve crimes?

How about, if the Knights can actually think of a legit reason why they would know, then they can jump in.

And remember, anything can slip by the Knights all the player has to do is play the "As long as I am never found out for the crime." and it is an acceptable 'Get-Away-From-Knights-Free' card.

Not even Preston can bust you then.

If one player can do it, we all deserve the same courtesy.

[Good Alice]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sandcaster:
Sure, YT can do the above. YT can also become hunted for her troubles. If you plan to waltz in, play this shit with YT, then waltz away and carry on as if nothing has happened, I'll gladly lead the charge in declaring the fic non-canon. If instead you waltz in, pull your shit, waltz out and then find yourself hunted by the Knights, Utopia-Proteus and/or the Directive (amongst others), you've got something viable.

I never said scot free. i never said she would. I said it would be hard to stop her from doing it. Note how I did not not state she would have no after effect no bad day, no legal problem. I pointed out that the idea that the WCK could physically stop her form doing it was stupid. She doesn't need to be bigger than them, just hit them when they aren't looking.

So yea she would be hunted down for the res tof her life, the point is if YT did she would have made sure she could live the life ont he lamd and was firendly in the right places witht eh righ people who don't give a shit about the law.

[The White Rat]

Sometimes your crimes cannot be ignored, and the fact that a Nova is involved can't always be hidden. WR found that out, was captured, escaped, and is now wanted. Now he must tread with care, should he be seen. He will be hunted for the rest of his life.

He will have to avoid direct confrontations with the WCK, as they bring too much firepower to bear.

WR always has a Big, Master Plan: he's delusional.