Aberrant RPG - Time Travel

[Destiny]

I was just thinking how people who handle time travel (which thanks to the APG) in aberrent/trinty/adventure (but mainly Aberrent). There is lot to suggest that time travel had has an important part in to play the history of the setting and I would like peoples opinions on the matter.

[Charlie]

Depends on how you run it. Look at the skewed logic that WW uses in it's possible answers to "Can you change the past?"

"No" - Why have Time Travel if characters cannot change the past? A character can have many ways to view the past such as Pretercognition to see it from a first person perspective. You could use Telepathy to relive it by reading someone's mind. All of which a lower Quantum level character can do.

"No, changes create new timelines", Why have Time Travel if you all you do is create a new timeline? A character could just have Crosstime Travel for much cheaper with the same effect.

"Yes, but it's hard." This is my favorite theory since certain events seem to need to take place. If Hitler had not been born or killed at a young age, Germany was ripe for some type of World War fever. Their economy was collapsing and when people have their backs to the wall, it is human nature to blame someone else. It takes a mature people to do otherwise. I like this one so that if the characters use enough planning and thought (or Mega-Intelligence if the character is more intelligent than the player) they can make changes in the direction that they desire, without you as the ST having to rewrite your whole campaign.

"Yes, and it's catastophically easy." Just how intelligent do you need to be to not screw up the Time-line so bad that you have no hope of recognizing what is going on? The classic Butterfly Effect (somewhat appropriate that Ashton Kutcher stars in it since he has played characters that would bungle the whole process). It would turn into a full time ST position to run this option. Characters would have to play the changes, then the ST would have to work on the effects and get back to the characters next game session. Flow charts would become a way of life. The History channel.com would become their only Favorite on the web (other than this forum mind you, since they would be asking for help all the time). From a character perspective this is bad as well. There is meeting yourself as you try and stop a past you from making a mistake. How do you do that? "Sure you are me from the future. How do I know you are not some Illusion generating Nova trying to stop me?" Believing a future self only works on Bill and Ted (I happen to like that movie for the amount of Paradox involved).

All other questions are incidental compaired to how you answer what effects Time Travel has.

Just a few thoughts to help I hope.

[Sakurako Hino]

I subscribe to a theory I lovingly call the "Toriyama" theory.

I call it that because it's primary example is in the Anime "Dragonball Z", which was created by Akira Toriyama.

You see, there is this character named Trunks, who travels back in time from the future to save Earth from an Android apocolypse.

The unfortunate thing is, since his events already occurred, his interferance only creates a new timeline, where the Androids eventually get beat by Goku & Co.

Using the experiences and skills he learned in the present, he returned to his future and finally laid low the Androids.

I actually like to subscribe to the "Time Travel creating Alternate Timelines" theory. It takes care of the paradox problem. In one timeline, the traveller didn't come, in the other the traveller did. When the traveller returns to their own time, things haven't changed at all.

[Sekhmet]

With only a few rare exceptions (anyone remember Time Vortex?) time travel is deux ex machina or a plot device. With that in mind I'd like to try answering a couple of questions, which will indirectly answer some of Destiny's.

"No" - Why have Time Travel if characters cannot change the past?

- To show them the ramifications of actions, or give them a chance to moderate the results of their own actions. Perhaps take an event and simply show there beyond a doubt what the consequences are. This can be very cheese ala any number of comics, or it could be very thought provoking and heartfelt.

One possibility is time travel only in the very loosest sense of the word. The characters get to go on a "jaunt" into the future via a mental simulation (JLA readers will recognize the hallmark of one of the Martian Manhunter's tech toys here) and see what "might" happen. Given that knowledge how will they react?

Imagine a world of Elites vying in the remains of a world divided by petty Warlords. Will a modern day Elite lose her taste for combat? Become a champion of honor or victory? Work to reform world law to prevent excesses? Work to institutionalize wars with rigid guidelines? Seek other alternatives?

"No, changes create new timelines" Why have Time Travel if you all you do is create a new timeline?

Suppose you knew this in advance. Seems pretty useless, but... Suppose you had something in your life you felt passionate about whether it be the death of a child, the estrangement of a loved one, a destructive nemesis or simply something you bungled and just can't quite get over. How short a step is it to deciding it's worthwhile to create that new time where life is better in one small way even if you never get a chance to live in it?

Merely some small considerations.

[Charlie]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sakurako 'Endeavor' Hino:
I subscribe to a theory I lovingly call the "Toriyama" theory.

I call it that because it's primary example is in the Anime "Dragonball Z", which was created by Akira Toriyama.

You see, there is this character named Trunks, who travels back in time from the future to save Earth from an Android apocolypse.

The unfortunate thing is, since his events already occurred, his interferance only creates a new timeline, where the Androids eventually get beat by Goku & Co.

Using the experiences and skills he learned in the present, he returned to his future and finally laid low the Androids.

I actually like to subscribe to the "Time Travel creating Alternate Timelines" theory. It takes care of the paradox problem. In one timeline, the traveller didn't come, in the other the traveller did. When the traveller returns to their own time, things haven't changed at all.

Why bother having Time Travel then if you can't make changes? If you want to create new timelines, you could just use Crosstime Travel instead?

Takes care of all those issues at a lower (and I mean low, Q2 according to the book, yet another fine WW editing example) Quantum level.

Trunks did make changes to "his" past otherwise he would not have gained skills and experience to defeat the Androids in "his" present.

Time travel by it's very nature is Paradoxical. If you can't deal with that, then stay home. I believe Dr. Who said something like that.

It is true.

Dragonball Z is Superman/Martial Arts on Super-Ultra-Mega-Steroids. I have tried to watch it with my kids and found it painfully lacking in any real substance.

Black Holes were only a Mathematical model until Hubble was placed and we knew what to look for. At the center of every Galaxy is a Super Massive Black hole. The effects on "local" space showed us what to look for out in other parts of the Galaxy. Part of the model also has a place for Time Travel depending on which direction across the Event Horizon you go in. The Future or the Past.

Until humans are mature enough to not screw with time just to see what would happen, we will not advance to that level of technology. There are those wise enough to make sure that does not happen.

Use the Yes, but it is difficult approach. It takes a little more research, however, you can make changes. The need for something seems to drive many of the changes that we have. History is replete with the number of inventions for instance that would have made over the face of our world had they not been "lost". Archeologists have found many Incredible inventions that have been "lost" due to many reasons.

[Destiny]

I interesting thing was pointed out to me, (just as an atempt to raise the stakes a little) I'm not sure of the science behind it but I believe it is vaild in princeple is that in black holes time and space become interchangble, if so I teleporter with Adapabilty would be teleport move about bit and teleport out at a different time. (While I guess some ST my not allow anything to keep some one alive in blackhole it can be aurged for) therefore even Quatum two nova could time travel.

[Sakurako Hino]

Charlie, the reason why I believe the theory, is this.

If I went back in time, and successfully killed Hitler while he was still a starving artist, I would not have changed any events in my time.

Because the events already happened in my time, when I return, WWII will still have Nazis and Hitler.

While, the events I created will spin into a new timeline, where (theoretically) WWII involved Europe and the US against a Russian/Japanese axis. Or perhaps Japan insted comes to us for resources and becomes our ally against the Russians who invade most of Europe?

All because I enterfere in that timeline, hoping to change my time.

(By the way, Trunks's future wasn't changed. But he was strong enough to save what was left of Earth from the Androids in his time.)

[Speed]

Quote:

Originally posted by Charlie:
Why bother having Time Travel then if you can't make changes? If you want to create new timelines, you could just use Crosstime Travel instead?

Here's one for you: Why aspire to Universe Creation? In effect, when you use Crosstime Travel, do you not pick what specifics the Universe you are travelling to contains? So why create a whole universe(and wait til Q10), when you can do essentially the same thing at Q6(because we know that's what they meant)? Unless it matters to you that the universe you are travelling to "already exists".

Just something I was wondering last night while reading the PG...(and, I also have trouble enjoying DragonballZ...it's sort of like what I imagine the world of Aberrant would be if Gabriel Melchior had succeeded, but with an afterlife and wishes and other horse-um-stuff)

Also, as Doc pointed out to Marty, once you change the past you can't get back to 'your' timeline, because you are in the 'new' timeline as long as you exist past the point of change. So, travelling (ahem) back to the future would take you to the 'new' future, because that is the continuum that you exist in 'now'. So, whether you can 'change' history or create 'new' history is pretty much moot.

[Understudy]

Okay, Time travel and free will. Lets take a random person off the street and call him M. He travels a few years into the future. He dicides. If when he gets there he does not have appeared to traveled back again, then he will travel back again. If he appears to travel back again then he will not.

New timelines resolve all this. There is a timeline with both and his dicidions tell him where he ends up.

However I would feel I little cheated if that is what time travel did. Because it would be simply be crosstime travel with maybe an extar or two.

Another point, Time travel vs Percogs.

I Percog sees what happens, she then changes the future, she then sees something different.

A time traveler travels to the future, what he sees is what happens reguardless of howmany times the Percog has atempted to change things. ie the time traveler and the Percog do not see the same thing.

The time line theory also solves the Percog now only sees different time lines and doesn't actually see the future of the one she is in unless she is lucky.

Timelines solve most things, but I not a fan of it and it isn't the Aberrant default. How does one resolve all this and still keep free will?

[Zima]

The most basic (and probably the most ignored) way of handling this is to simply assume there to be no paradox associated with time travel.

Think of it this way: someone travels back in time, changes events, and as a result they are never born. From the perspective of the resulting world, a collection of sentient matter (the time-traveler)with certain memories spontaneously came into existence at one point, and that's it. Why not?

Of course, I would be the first to admit that there is legitimate scientific theory saying this probably wouldn't work. And also, having crazy reality-bending ramifications could be fun.

[Understudy]

And from the view of the time traveler. If they changed events so they didn't time travel, does that leave the new version and the old. If so then it is possible to create yourself many times over. Or get into Paradoxes involving your own time creation.

It is a solution i have used and it does work to an extent. I'm very tried so excuse me if this doesn't make much sense

[Zima]

By that model, if a person went back in time and changed events so that they didn't time travel, they would remain unchanged - just sitting in a different world. And yeah, you could have multiple versions of yourself by going back in time to a time when you were alive - which could get confusing all in its self, but at the the universe isn't having to jump through hoops.

[Jager]

So, you go back and alter your timeline. Whether or not you have created an alternate timeline isn't really relevant, as it is your home, now. For precogs, it would be interesting, as they might detect "what should have happened", but I'm a precog fan.

Thus, you can go back in time and kill yourself, and you will still exist (though no one will understand your existance).

[Kirby1024]

The thing is, of course, that there's no such thing as a truly coherant Time Travel story, in the strict sense of the term. All Time Travel is inherantly illogical, and when you get past that, talking about temporal theory becomes that much more interesting. Of course it's all false, since the premises don't stack up, but it's fun to see where the false premises lead...

[Sakurako Hino]

Time Travel = Deus ex Machina.

I tend to avoid it in any game. Heck, if I was running Aberrant, Time travel of any type would be banned to characters and players.

Too much of a headache dealing with different theories.

[Speed]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sakurako 'Endeavor' Hino:
Time Travel = Deus ex Machina.

Not always, and not, I would say, even a majority of the time. There are some tremendous Time Travel fiction stories out there, and I have had some great gaming sessions where TT played a key role. In aberrant, I think the fun is to let them screw around the past, then watch them scramble to fix it so that they can get back to at least a 'reasonable facsimile' of their previous time.

I guess it depends on what you're into.

[Sakurako Hino]

Well, actually, you can forgive my view on time travel, since my only exposure to it was through Dr. Who, then the few Star Trek episodes where the characters take insane measures to avoid paradoxes.

The Time Machine by H.G.Welles I don't count, because his character went pretty much foreward and back.

[Charlie]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sakurako 'Endeavor' Hino:
Charlie, the reason why I believe the theory, is this.

If I went back in time, and successfully killed Hitler while he was still a starving artist, I would not have changed any events in my time.

Because the events already happened in my time, when I return, WWII will still have Nazis and Hitler.

While, the events I created will spin into a new timeline, where (theoretically) WWII involved Europe and the US against a Russian/Japanese axis. Or perhaps Japan insted comes to us for resources and becomes our ally against the Russians who invade most of Europe?

All because I enterfere in that timeline, hoping to change my time.

Worse yet, someone who developed the Jet engine, Nuclear weapons, Mass Accelerator (commonly called Rail Guns), etc. in 1939 instead of 1943 when it was too late. Everyone assumes that Hitler made no mistakes and that if the Americans had not entered the war, he would have won.

Time Travel is part of the Uncertainty Principle. "The more precisely the position is determined, the less precisely the momentum is known in this instant, and vice versa." The more you look at Time Travel, the more out of focus it becomes. http://www.aip.org/history/heisenberg/p08.htm

Time Travel by it's very nature is a Paradox. However, we see many paradoxes in nature. Take the "Photons faster than light" Paradox. http://www.biols.susx.ac.uk/home/John_Gribbin/quantum.htm Since you can never create just 1 photon at a time, always in pairs, always will travel parallel to each other, you can have some interesting results.

In the experiment above, the scientist predicted that 1 photon passing through a thin glass barrier would arrive a fraction of a second at a detector behind it's twin that had no barrier. The photon that went through the barrier actually arrived before the other photon.

An experiment that proved that no matter how far away 2 photons are to each other, they will always remain parallel to each other, earned a French scientist the Nobel prize. He was working on work a Scottish scientist pioneered. In the experiment, when one of the photons was deflected, the twin changed angle to remain parallel. NASA is looking at using the technique to keep constant communications with a Mars mission.

Quantum Physics is a strange animal.

[Charlie]

Quote:

Originally posted by Leonid 'Zima' Lov:
By that model, if a person went back in time and changed events so that they didn't time travel, they would remain unchanged - just sitting in a different world. And yeah, you could have multiple versions of yourself by going back in time to a time when you were alive - which could get confusing all in its self, but at the the universe isn't having to jump through hoops.

That is why I suggest the limited changes, so that you don't end up like Marty McFly, trying to get your parents back together.

Which came first. The chicken or the egg?

[Charlie]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
So, you go back and alter your timeline. Whether or not you have created an alternate timeline isn't really relevant, as it is your home, now. For precogs, it would be interesting, as they might detect "what should have happened", but I'm a precog fan.

Thus, you can go back in time and kill yourself, and you will still exist (though no one will understand your existance).

I too like precogs, since I have had some personal experience with the subject.

There is always the case of mistaken identity. Did I really kill my self before I went back in time to prevent myself from going back in time? Or did I kill someone else?

Quantum Tunneling would prevent killing oneself according to High Energy experiments. As particles pass close enough to each other that they could react, they cause a warping of space that prevents them from actually touching. The same thing could happen between the time traveler and their past self. No matter how hard they try, a quantum warp is created that prevents the change from occuring.

[Charlie]

Quote:

Originally posted by Kirby1024:
The thing is, of course, that there's no such thing as a truly coherant Time Travel story, in the strict sense of the term. All Time Travel is inherantly illogical, and when you get past that, talking about temporal theory becomes that much more interesting. Of course it's all false, since the premises don't stack up, but it's fun to see where the false premises lead...

What does logic have to do with quantum physics. Just what scientist expect to happen, the opposite seems to occur because of QP.

"You must unlearn what you have learned." Yoda

[Charlie]

Quote:

Originally posted by Speed:

Quote:

Originally posted by Sakurako 'Endeavor' Hino:
Time Travel = Deus ex Machina.

Not always, and not, I would say, even a majority of the time. There are some tremendous Time Travel fiction stories out there, and I have had some great gaming sessions where TT played a key role. In aberrant, I think the fun is to let them screw around the past, then watch them scramble to fix it so that they can get back to at least a 'reasonable facsimile' of their previous time.

I guess it depends on what you're into.

You have a sadistic streak in you.

I like that. Make them think (even if it hurts).

[Charlie]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sakurako 'Endeavor' Hino:
Well, actually, you can forgive my view on time travel, since my only exposure to it was through Dr. Who, then the few Star Trek episodes where the characters take insane measures to avoid paradoxes.

The Time Machine by H.G.Welles I don't count, because his character went pretty much foreward and back.

Dr. Who is rife with Paradoxes. That is the only way he could have that huge space inside a Police Phone box (ie Teseract).

I love the Voyager episode that Ensign Kim left himself a message that he owed an 15 year older version of himself, since the older self had changed the past. Another one was the Tasha Yar return, where she did not die.

[Understudy]

There are two ways in which time travel can always avoid pardoxes. The first, no free will. The second only applies if the only way to travle fasher than light is to travel backwards in time is doesn't apply in aberrent. I have third, but it is complicated and probably wrong.

[Charlie]

Quote:

Originally posted by Understudy:
There are two ways in which time travel can always avoid pardoxes. The first, no free will.

No free will? Might as well hand my character over to the ST.

[Understudy]

I never said it was popular way of avoiding pardox, but full marks to any ST wo can run a game without free and doesn't tell the players that.

[Vixen]

The Hypertime theory that Grant Morrison and Mark Waid put together for the DC Universe always tickled my fancy. I like the notion that the universe evolved to withstand the nature of paradox after everyone and their dog kept time-travelling.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Originally posted by Understudy:
I never said it was popular way of avoiding pardox, but full marks to any ST wo can run a game without free and doesn't tell the players that.

I've been in that game, twice, with different ST's.

In both cases we went far enough back in time that we didn't know the details of what was going on.

We didn't exist, our parents didn't exist.

[Charlie]

Quote:

Originally posted by Understudy:
I never said it was popular way of avoiding pardox, but full marks to any ST wo can run a game without free and doesn't tell the players that.

When I ran a Dr. Who game I had to do it...I suppose I could do it again.

The most difficult part is a good understanding of History and how certain events are focal points in shaping our world.

Example: Alexander Graham Bell was not the only person working on the Telephone at the time he invented it. Knowing that, if someone travelled back in time and accidently killed him, the Telephone would still have been invented, just that phone companies would not have been named after him.

[Gryffen]

Contrary to popular belief, Alexander Graham Bell didn't invent the telephone. He paid a patent clerk to give him the details of another guys patent application.

He then submitted it himself successfully and claimed credit for it. Killing Alexander Graham Bell would have probably only slowed the uptake of the telephone as a household device - since the actual inventor wasn't as hot on the aggressive marketing.

[Neil Preston]

Kage, I am curious as to where you heard that.

[Charlie]

The Sun Newspaper of course. That is where that article which depicted President Jacques Chirac as an earthworm .

How is this for an idea that will "Bake your noodle"? I just recieved my copy of Aberrant:Teragen. In there it talks about Chrysalis "The basic duration of a Chrysalis is a number of weeks equal to the experience points the player's character spends while in the Chrysalis." The player travels back in time to the moment that they enter Chrysalis and they are able to continue playing with the rest of the group.

Then when the "Past" self exits the shell, the future self travels back to the future.

[Gryffen]

It's amazing what you can find out on the Discovery channels.

This was a fact also repeated on discovery kids...

check out http://www.popular-science.net/history/meucci_bell.html

[Myrmidon]

Charlie - thus invalidating everything the other players did without you, the first time. What would their reactions be?

Kage - now someone needs to champion the cause of poor Alexander Graham Bell!!!

And the struggle goes on.