[Shadowrun] Agents of the Dragon

[Krul]

So, I've collected the Shadowrun 5th edition ebook, going to be spending some time reading it to understand it, but I like it so far.

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We're back to the priority system, but it's the priority system with karma to buy qualities, though the cost of those has changed, and some of the nature of the qualities has been clarified. Also, it now costs time to improve attributes and skills, which is good.

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For example, I particularly like what they have done with Sensitive System for example, no more free points, regardless of what you do, it costs something

Sensitive System

Bonus Karma: 12

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A character with the Sensitive System quality has immuno-suppressive problems with cybernetic implants. Double all Essence losses caused by cyberware. Bioware implants, regardless of how they are grown or designed, are rejected by the character’s body.

This quality works differently for characters who are technomancers or Awakened and therefore never plan to take implants. Awakened individuals or technomancers remain fully capable of channeling mana or using Resonance, but they are potentially more susceptible to Drain or Fading. A magic user or technomancer with a Sensitive System must make a Willpower (2) Test before any Drain or Fading Tests. Failure on this test results in Drain or Fading Values being increased by +2 for that particular Drain or Fading Test, as the energy traveling through their body does more damage to their Sensitive System.

[Sailor OOC]

So they are making it so that harsh negative qualities are even harsher. You'd have to think, why is it then that people would take any negative qualities as they don't want to get hosed. Of course I'm waiting for more books to come out, but I am definitely not interested in 5th edition at the moment, I'll consider it in a few years when the splats come out.

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Meanwhile... we got this game...

[Krul]

Yes, we do.. however, I think you missed the point of negative quality adjustments, in 4th edition a mage or technomage could take Sensitive System and just avoid any cyberware or bioware.. in essence getting free points for the character, which caused many GM's to outright ban it for certain character concepts. This way, the negative quality actually costs you something, it's not getting stuff for free.

[Sailor OOC]

Seems heavy handed and counter to fluff. Why would being more sensitive to bioware and cyberware make it harder for you to channel magic? It sems a heavy handed measure to fix an already busted concept. I can see now 5th edition is following the tried and true Shadowrun tradition of not fixing what is broken, instead adding a whole new set of broken rules.

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Want to know why players, even ones not looking to munchkin hunt for those free points? Because your average Shadowrun character would get rolled by the usual opposition a GM would throw at them. What needs to happen is a complete removal of the qualities system. I do like the Priority system back in action, but it is heavily heavily built towards making pigeon-holed characters that can only be built in one way.

SR no matter the edition is a very poor system. Hands down. If it wasn't for the fact that the average (or even our) game gets to Saints Row levels of awesome when you get the right people together, I wouldn't play Shadowrun at all anymore.

[Krul]

Not to be offensive, but based on your reply you've already decided what you want without giving the system a look over, just on those few lines about a single disadvantage... I would say nothing in reply, but I am afraid I have to disagree with you, on a broad basis and on a specific basis, as I actually have the book and have been spending some time pouring over it, you need more exposure to the system I think, before you can say some of what your saying with any authority, otherwise all your speaking of is a personal opinion..

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Specific:

1. It's not Bioware Sensitivity or Cyberware Sensitivity, it's Sensitive System.. overall, that means your internal biochemistry is sensitive to any change, and channeling magic or resonance is a change. So on that level, it is consistent with fluff.
2. Secondly, it's a flaw, that means it should be a flaw and should cost you something. All flaws should come with disadvantages, that's the nature of a flaw.. a flaw that doesn't have disadvantages isn't a flaw, it's a gift.
3. Third, there are some other flaws that you can chose if you don't like that one's effects, some of which are better anyway, I prefer the code of honor flaw for hunting points down anyway,
4. Also, in this new system, they give you 25 karma straight up to purchase stuff beyond your initial priority choices, including advantages, and you can add up to 25 points of disadvantages, for more points. [On a side note, I did a quite character creation test and converted the cost back to build points, you end up with more then 500 this way, so over all, characters in the new system tend to be more capable then BP, not less]

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General:

1. Every system has it's merits and flaws, hands down the worst system with the biggest flaws being played around here is Abberant, it has huge holes you can fly a truck through, by comparison, SR is cleaner and more balanced. I won't say it's perfect, there are better systems out there, but I prefer it to several others, and I wouldn't run that world even in M&M, preferring the SR rules for SR.
2. Second, your complaining about pigeon-holing characters in one statement then saying you want qualities removed entirely in the next, which would make characters more pigeon-holed, not less..
3. Third, actually, characters are not as pigeon-holed as your talking about, there is considerable choices even for players who chose exactly the same priorities

Over all, I suppose I need to write a full review, but I'm not done reading it, here's a more full review made by someone who already looked it over: http://secondleft.blogspot.ca/2013/07/review-shadowrun-5th-edition-part-i.html

[Dave ST]

They took out hacking cyberware, I'm bummed about that.

[SalmonMax]

Oh? Eh, it was pretty hard to pull off anyway. And people -freaked out- over the idea it was possible.

[Krul]

Besides 5th Edition.. there's also this, enjoy.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFYsQ0M2Jrg

[Krul]

Ok, I'd planned to reply tonight, I started to work on it, but at the moment my head is killing me, so I'm laying down, a nap may be what I need... that usually helps when I'm feeling this way, I'll give it another try when I wake.. which could still be tonight, but is more likely to be early tomorrow

[Sakurako Hino]

I'm still watching this game. You'll get responses.

[Sakurako Hino]

Okay, I've not posted since the 9th of July... what's going on with this game? I'd sort of like to know what's happening.

[Krul]

In part, last few weeks people have become unavailable, or been on vacation for one reason or another, I've indicated last week that I was going on vacation myself, it's a bit harder during summer time to insure everyone is available, and in fact, my vacation is not entirely over.. but the other part is the players, I have a plan for things, but in this situation, I don't expect to do all of the work.. I've been trying to give the 'Face' a chance to take the forefront, but red has gone missing, and I'm not sure how many other players are still interested due to lack of posts..

[Sakurako Hino]

So what are you trying to say, are you closing this? What? I'd sort of like an answer so I can either continue planning using this character or consider this game dead and move on. I'm sorry I'm being so direct, but I want to make sure.

[SalmonMax]

I'm interested. Death Otter's just hangin' loose, letting other folks have the spotlight.

[Sakurako Hino]

Yah, if we're good, E's hanging around in the penthouse itching to get her actual suit on. Business is business and she can't wait.

[Krul]

As long as I have a few players still interested, I'll keep running this.

[Sailor OOC]

We should also wait to see what Long says as well, as he is in this (and on vacation). This would give us 4 players.

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Oh, sorry was on my OOC... but you guys should know who I am by now.

[Krul]

Ok, I've thought about this a bit, here's what I'm going to do...

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I know at least four of you are still in, so I'll go forward with this.. over the labor day weekend, decide if you want to move things forward, or would prefer a restart (I'd prefer to continue, but part of the reason things have slowed to a near stop seems to be that I'm not taking a direct enough hand).. I will also make myself available in chat over this time period to continue this run from a more active and direct point... starting tomorrow.

[Sakurako Hino]

If it is a reset, it will still be the same characters and system version, correct?

[SalmonMax]

I'm fine either way.

[Krul]

Yes, same system and characters.

[Sakurako Hino]

so ka. So when do we start, Mr. Johnson?

[Justin OOC]

I'm in and considering things, a reset may be the best option.

[Krul]

I was waiting for long to get back from his vacation, so that means in this weekend.

[Sailor OOC]

Krul: I am currently getting the laptop fixed. It's taking a change of OS, but it should work.

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I'm hoping I will be ready to go after this weekend.

[Krul]

I think, all things considered, a reboot of some degree is in order.. actually, I think a recall of those of you who are still active, and leaving the inactive's to continue this mission might work best.. that way what has gone before can be integrated into what is involved to this point... I'll work on that post tomorrow or the next day

[Krul]

And there's the reboot, this mission is less dangerous then retrieval of a artifact from blood mages within their own domain, but don't get to relaxed, there are plenty of dangerous within it.

[Sakurako Hino]

I'm starting to have problem with this mission already. I can't figure out how we can do this discretely. I'm sure once the others get on we can brainstorm an idea, but I don't know if we can get that going in time. Does anyone outside of D0 have any clue how to proceed?

[SalmonMax]

We have all day. That's quite a bit of time if we're focused on a plan.

[Krul]

Regarding this Reboot, best I know the following characters are still in..

• Shae, Saori, Ryan, Endeavor, Death Otter

As to your mission, I feel like I should add two thing, first it's a request for subtlety, doesn't mean it has to be non-violent, a sniper is subtle after all... also, if you manage to do this without being detected, but end up taking very violent means, it can still be.. arguably, subtle.

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To busy this evening, but I should be in chat this weekend for discussion, and guidance.

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Also, from now on, I'm running by the following rule.. if everyone hasn't chimed in within a week, I will post (and I'm setting that from Wednesday to Wednesday - sense I'm usually off that day) and move the story forward regardless, failure to act during that time period will have me NPCing any PC who has to act for things to move.. or doing nothing if that option is available.

[z028 Riley]

I'm rather lost on the transition that's occurring. I don't have any idea on how are characters are going from the old plot to this one or really much of an idea on what/how we're supposed to do this new run. Dave's suggestion of starting characters out as, well, starting characters seems like a good idea when a sizable chunk of your player base is completely unfamiliar with the game system and fairly unfamiliar with the setting. Right now we're at the equivalent of throwing someone completely new to the oWoD game/setting into the final Armageddon plot of the setting. There are a lot of assumptions being made about what the players know is even possible to do or how a run should go and it becomes very disorienting, frustrating, and not fun to both constantly feel lost and trying to figure out what's going on and to feel like the dumb kid in the class because you have no idea what to do to advance the game.

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I know you really like high powered games, Krul, but if that's how this SR game has to run, then I think I'm going to bow out. It's too much of a drain on me to try to play at that level with no support underneath to know how to. And I really really really really hate feeling like a moron. Especially with something that is supposed to be fun.

[Sakurako Hino]

Also, from now on, I'm running by the following rule.. if everyone hasn't chimed in within a week, I will post (and I'm setting that from Wednesday to Wednesday - sense I'm usually off that day) and move the story forward regardless, failure to act during that time period will have me NPCing any PC who has to act for things to move.. or doing nothing if that option is available.

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I do have one problem. If you are going to arbitrarily move us forward, like last time, it's going to once again create problems. We had a huge problem with our weapons and customs in the last go-round because you jumped us forward. In fact several problems stemmed from that. If we are planning, let us plan. It's hard enough to get everyone in chat at the same time to talk about what we should do, but to suddenly jump us forward won't do us any favors.

[Krul]

I'm rather lost on the transition that's occurring. I don't have any idea on how are characters are going from the old plot to this one or really much of an idea on what/how we're supposed to do this new run. Dave's suggestion of starting characters out as, well, starting characters seems like a good idea when a sizable chunk of your player base is completely unfamiliar with the game system and fairly unfamiliar with the setting. Right now we're at the equivalent of throwing someone completely new to the oWoD game/setting into the final Armageddon plot of the setting. There are a lot of assumptions being made about what the players know is even possible to do or how a run should go and it becomes very disorienting, frustrating, and not fun to both constantly feel lost and trying to figure out what's going on and to feel like the dumb kid in the class because you have no idea what to do to advance the game.

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I know you really like high powered games, Krul, but if that's how this SR game has to run, then I think I'm going to bow out. It's too much of a drain on me to try to play at that level with no support underneath to know how to. And I really really really really hate feeling like a moron. Especially with something that is supposed to be fun.

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When I first read this I wasn't sure how to react, but after thinking about this, I have to say this is a completely fair opinion, it has made me consider maybe tabling the entire idea for a while, and perhaps coming back to it later, but that seems unfair to the players already involved... unfortunately it seems like people keep leaving, which is a sign to me that I am doing this entire thing wrong. Also, some players havn't had as much opertunity to shine as others, which I also feel bad about..

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I do have one problem. If you are going to arbitrarily move us forward, like last time, it's going to once again create problems. We had a huge problem with our weapons and customs in the last go-round because you jumped us forward. In fact several problems stemmed from that. If we are planning, let us plan. It's hard enough to get everyone in chat at the same time to talk about what we should do, but to suddenly jump us forward won't do us any favors.

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This is also a valid concern... perhaps I jumped the gun on that one, but it was made in order to keep from stalling along the way..

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*sigh* it seems like shadowrun games on this board are cursed in one way or another.

[Dawn OOC]

Krul, I understood why you hopped us forward; as an ST, it's really hard to draw the line telling when you need to push things and when your posts are being pushy. I tend to opt toward not pushing, which is partially why my games can sputter along, among other reasons.

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Beyond that.... if you wanted to reboot us to a lower level, that'd be fine with me. I'm really struggling with posts on this game, in part because I don't know the world very well and while I want to learn, that takes more time than asking people for the bits and pieces I need to make a post. I sadly don't have a lot of time ATM for pretendy-fun-times, which makes me sad. I'm working on breaking out of the 40 hour grind, but I'm not there -- or close to there -- yet.

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So a hard reboot at a lower level would be fine with me, as would continuing at this level. I'm really trying to get up a post, despite the lack of a post since you rebooted. Part of that is that I have no clue what I can offer; I have a general idea but I stall out when I coax for details. Playing a newbie at lower levels would help with that, as it'd free me up to play someone who is new to the nightlife and learning the ropes. S/he can make stupid suggestions and instead of having people looking side-eyed at her while wondering how she lived this long, they'll just roll their eyes and explain to the fresh meat all the ways she's wrong.

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As far as tabling or dropping... to be honest, I'd be fine with that too. I like my PC but I have little connection to the world at large and that lack makes it hard to be in that world in any meaningful way. That comes back to my ignorance/lack of time as a new player and can only be cured with time... which I have little free time to devote to the study of the setting.

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I hope my posts were helpful to you and provided feedback. If you want me to clarify or expound on a point, just let me know.

[Sakurako Hino]

This might sound harsh, but I'm being truthful here.

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I want to know one way or another what we're doing. Character creation is a bitch no matter the version of SR. If we are re-building I want to know. Quite frankly though I am burned out on generating characters for games that go nowhere.

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So are you going to make a decision on this game, Krul? I want to play this but I want to know what we're playing and doing before hand.

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And again, sorry if this reads harshly.

[SalmonMax]

I'm having fun with D0, and will continue to do so regardless if we hard reboot or keep where we are.

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I do think that the general idea is that we could use a bit more grounding in the campaign setting, and perhaps with each other as a team too.

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Going down in 'level' and back in time might help with that. Help us develop more camaraderie by playing through it, rather than just sort of being told we're all experienced (when some of us aren't) and we all know each other (when most of us don't, characterwise at least).

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Those dissonances between character and PC can make it hard to get into character, which may be part of the problem here.

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If pressed, I'd say start us off small, then if you want to get to the higher power stuff, let us advance that way quickly after becoming invested in our characters and the setting.

[Sakurako Hino]

To be honest, if we are re-setting, I just want to know if we are re-setting. I'll have to know what sort of rules we're building on so I can grab Chummer and start this process again. Thing is I am invested in the character I got. I've been wanting to play her and to see that tossed away for yet again another reset is annoying.

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To be honest I am locked between wanting to see a game and wanting to keep my character and my eternal hatred of dealing with the SR rules in character creation.

I don't want to be a downer on this, or sound like one. If this pain leads to the gain of a working SR game, I look forward to it. I'm just asking that if we settle on something we settle on it and ride that decision to it's logical conclusion (a successful game, or the game dies off).

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To condense my feelings on this: As long as we get a game out of this, then I am happy with that. Also, I hate Shadowrun CC in any version.

[SalmonMax]

You can still play her. Just a scaled back version.

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But I'm fine either way.

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I just recognize that I have some advantages in that I'm already very comfortable with my character and with Shadowrun's settings and expectations...so I don't have those dissonances that would otherwise prevent me from connecting.

[Sakurako Hino]

Well I have to think on if I want to re-roll, or make a completely different character if we do a scale-back reset. I built Endeavor for a certain setting, and the character fit the power level in terms of where my mind-set was. I'm already too invested in this character and to change her would throw me off. I may just build a different character on a reset to a lower power level.

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Then again there is no guarantee even that will happen as we'll just continue with where we are. All I want is just some definitive answer at some point as to what we are going to be doing, is all, so I know what I am going to do next.

[Justin OOC]

so what's the plan here?