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Aberrant: Infinite Earth - Cosmos Nova - Quantum Discussion

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Simply put, it's been nearly a year, the timeline we set before we'd consider allowing Quantum 6 in this game.

I personally, am against allowing it, this game is fine at the level it currently resides, and I don't really see higher quantum adding much to it.

Still, this ruled by consensus, so Your thoughts, fellow players.

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Just for reference, the rules are written such:

  • No nova built for CN can go over Q6.
  • Q6 cannot be "unlocked" until One RL Year after the start of the game.

From the way that reads I'd assume that it is allowed automatically at the 1 year mark which is coming up. However, I'd be fine with it if the majority of the group wants to revise that to not allow Q6. I always prefer the option to not having it, but I don't actually have any plans for raising Nate to Q6 so it's no big deal either way.

But since you brought this up, if it is time to consider Q6 then that means it's also time to allow 6 dot backgrounds (one per character), and Sanctum Sanctorum. Woohoo, Nate's ship can finally get finished.

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Actually, I think Q6 could be allowed if carefully measured.

1: Cross-Time Travel is BANNED.

2: Any Authroity power is BANNED.

3: Any other powers that are L4 must be approved for use. In a case-by-case basis.

4: If any Extra would make a power a L5, that extra cannot be taken. Also, all powers L5 and up are BANNED.

5: Any mundane background (That is any background that wouldn't need a quantum explaination) can go to 6 without having Q6.

6: The cost of buying the 6th dot of a mega attribute is twice the normal cost.

7: The cost to buy Q6 is twice the normal cost.

8: Taking your 6th dot of quantum will incur a difficulty of two to all social rolls dealing with Novas at Q5 or under or any Humans or Psiads.

9: Your Quantum Pool does not increase from gaining Quantum 6. Your Quantum Pool is calculated as if you were still a Quantum 5.

10: By going to Q6, any action that is seen as disruptive by a simple (50%+1 player) majority of the CN participants will result in REMOVAL of the character.

Also it goes without saying, you get one point of permanent taint For going to Q6, and you get one point of permanent taint for every L3 or Higher power (this also counts L2 or L1 powers brought up to L3 with Extras) you bring to 6 dots. Mega Attributes can be brought to 6 dots safely, as well as abilities and normal attributes.

Also if this is the policy, I would like to put Immortality on the table as availiable (as Immortality at Q6 Is limited a bit compared to what happens at Q7 and higher.)

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Q6 would still open alot for the player.

1: Their Attributes and Abilities can go to 6 dots.

2: They would be able to take their powers to 6 dots as well as their mega attributes.

3: There are very few L4 powers outside of what I said should be banned that will be availiable.

4: I am willing to wiggle on the Q6 not applying to the quantum pool.

5: Just going to Q6 increases the scope of many powers.

6: We AREN'T going to go higher. I doubt anyone would approve of that.

High power brings higher responsibility, Q6 with my regulations would be far more reasonible and fit the CN canon.

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and you get one point of permanent taint for every L3 or Higher power (this also counts L2 or L1 powers brought up to L3 with Extras) you bring to 6 dots.

,,

I don't understand the part about L3 powers adding a point per power/dot. Why add that in? Or is that already a house rule that I did not see?

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Honestly, I'd like to avoid Q6. It seems that games go to hell once its allowed. And I agree with Mala that if you have to put up that many "but we don't allow X" restrictions on a thing, then maybe that thing is too disruptive to allow. In particular, I find that point #10 is heavyhanded and draconian. If the inclusion of this actually results in people losing their characters, no matter what the reason, we should definitely not allow that power/thing/whatever into the game.

,,

So I vote no to both Q6 and Kami's long list of suggestions. And I vote yes to allowing skills and backgrounds go to 6. The backgrounds in particular will add to the game in fun ways. :)

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As for Q6, according to the rules as written, Q6 can be bought as of March 1st, and the only limitation on that is this:

,, ,,
  • No nova built for CN can go over Q6.
  • Q6 cannot be "unlocked" until One RL Year after the start of the game.
  • No Mastery at start
  • No Q Supremacy ever

Any changes would need to be voted on.

Upon going back and reading the Background over 5 post, I realize that Q6 is required for having your signature background. I am assuming that Sanctum Sanctorum would be a 6th dot in the Sanctum Background? If this is the case then Nate will have to purchase Q6. Otherwise we'd need to alter the rule stating you have to have Q6 in order to have a 6 dot background. I don't think this would be too big of a deal since we are only allowing 1 six dot background per character.

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I like Carver's suggestion of allowing skills and backgrounds to go to 6 without needing Q6. I'd be fine with that.

,,

So to sum up, unless we vote otherwise Q6 goes in as of March 1st, with the caveats mentioned in my post above. It also sounds like we've got a significant number of people who would rather not deal with it at all.

,,

1) A quick show of hands on a yay or nay vote for Q6 please?

I'm completely ambivalent so long as we vote yes to number 2, otherwise I'd vote to leave things alone and allow Q6.

,,

2) Allow skills (any) and background (singular) to go above 5 without needing Q6, yay, or nay?

YAY vote for me.

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Can somebody please update the rules for Cosmos Nova so that the results of the vote in this thread are reflected in the actual rules for Cosmos Nova?

,,

I only just now saw this, and I'm having a very hard time controlling my temper about it at the moment, because it has completely shot my entire, overarching plotline for Zhenglai in the foot! I seriously have got no idea how to proceed with him now.

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For the record, here's my vote:

,,

1) Yae! Because seriously, there are what? 100 or so novas world-wide, according to the setting info, most of whom are 'blips' (i.e. novas who're operating at the level of A!-style stalwarts), a few thousand psiads crowding around them, and several billion baselines. We get 100NP to start with, Q5 with no taint (because, hey, might as well throw some sprinkles on that twinkie, right?), and 25xp a month. What - exactly - is having one extra dot of Quantum on a character sheet going to change in this scenario?

,,

As of right now, not even First World militaries could stop Mech or Telluris if they decided to go on a rampage, and Coyote could pretty easily crack the planet's crust, or create free or mostly-free energy for the entire human race with one of her inventions, if she really put her mind to it. Meanwhile, folks keep finding new and interesting ways to try and break the game with Background enhancements. Q6 is going to change that dynamic in what way, exactly? (And no, I am not trying to be sarcastic or obtuse here; I am truly, genuinely confused by the apparent lack of logic I've just finished reading up-thread.)

,,

And as for the "if you have to put up so many walls around it, is it really worth it" = "it's too complicated so let's just dump it" argument. I call bull.

,,

This is Cosmos Nova. We have more custom rules than I can easily keep straight. It's ridiculous. Adding a handful of qualifications and restrictions to taking Q6 is just a drop in the bucket compared to the CN rules as a whole.

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And I haven't even addressed the fact that almost none of the arguments used against Q6 were actually valid. Not even joking, pretty much every rules-based example cited up-thread is misquoted, partially or wholly wrong, or just flat-out made up. This - more than anything else - is what gets me upset about conversations like this. If you're going to decide you don't like something about a game, either learn the rules surrounding it first, or admit that the reason you don't like is because you just don't understand it!

,,

There are four L4 powers that can be taken at Q6 (Crosstime Travel, A:PG pg. 121-122, Disease Authority, A:PG pg. 122-123, Molecular Authority (which is a game-breaker in what way, now?), A:PG pg. 124-125, and Quantum Awareness (also totally not abusive as a power), A:PG pg. 126-127; the others require a higher Q-rating before you can take them), five powers if you include Biomanipulation (A:WWP2 pg. 113-114, which is listed as L3). L5 powers cannot be taken by novas with anything lower than Q8 (A:PG pg. 120), and novas with a Q6 rating cannot add Extras to an L4 power because this will take it to L5 (A:PG pg. 120).

,,

So can someone please do me a favor and read this brain-melting list of customizations, exceptions, and clauses - including all of the attached links - and then answer me the following question:

,,

What would be so difficult/complicated/terrifying about the following rules qualification: Q6 allowed 1 year after game start, no Mastery extra, no Crosstime Travel, no Disease Authority?

,,

If someone could do that for me I'd really appreciate it. :)

,,

2) Nay, I think, but honestly this one confuses me.

,,

Where did you guys even come up with this? There are already rules - playtested rules - for handling Abilities and Backgrounds above five. They're found in Adventure!; having an Ability at 5+ is called Ability Mastery (see pg. 125 of Adventure!, for experience costs, pg. 138 for rules related to their use), while having Backgrounds at 5+ is called a Background Enhancement (see pg. 149 of Adventure!). Some of you may not have realized, but I submitted the notion of Abilities at 5+, and I referenced A! when I did. That's what was originally voted in.

,,

As for all of these Background enhancements that seem to be all the rage in CN, they're being cribbed directly from A! as well. What, precisely, is wrong with the rules already written for them? You guys just finished having an entire argument about how dangerous Q6 is, even though CN basically allows every single player to start with a level of power equivalent to the low-end of Q6, if they so choose, and then dumps them into a world where even a 30NP nova would be vastly more powerful than 99.9% of the population, then you have an argument about not complicating the rules unnecessarily - and then proceed to vote in more custom rules to cover something that already had perfectly good ones to begin with?

,,

*is so confused* (*and frustrated*)

,,

...alright. I really am pretty frustrated at finding this thread, so I'm going to shut up now before I say something I'll regret. :mellow:

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Weighing in here, I'm inclined to agree with Cent.

,,

1) In favor of Q6, for reasons that Guo/Cent has already covered. Boiling it down, it really isn't going to change the face of the game: we're on 25+ XP a month and building Super-Sanctum-Sanctorums. I have an idea for handling Mastery, also, one that strikes a compromise between overpowered and "Q6, meh, what is it good for?" Also, because Cross-Time Travel is ruled out for CN, that leaves the only lvl 4 powers available as Molecular Authority and Elemental Authority.

,,

Pardon the phrasing, but big whoop. ;)

,,

Mastery Idea: Simply put, and I know it's not a new idea, break Mastery up into pieces and make each piece available as a regular Extra only accessible by people with Q6+. For example, a Q6 nova can take two extras on a lvl 3 power, which means that he could have two choices out of the following:

  • Area or Range. That's right, break the Scope part into two as well. That way, a nova wanting to boost their Elemental Mastery's (lvl3 power) overall scope would have to use both extras, one for range and one for area.

  • Effect. Same as APG.

  • Duration: same as APG.

  • Oh, and Reduced Quantum Cost is a seperate Extra. No need to go into that.

The usual Q6 rules about number of extras applies as normal. So a nova who wants a super-duper q-bolt (lvl 2) can add 4 extras to it when they hit Q6.

,,

2) Skills shouldn't need to go above 5. There's a Body Mod for Attributes above 5. And there's rules in Adventure for handling Backgrounds above 5. I would say Nay to this, simply because it's superfluous.

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I think the only way I am changing my vote to allow Q6, is with the QMasteries and other problem L4 powers banned.

As for the sanctum situation, It takes a boatload of XP to build truely crazy sanctums (for instance when I get to post Kei's carrier... that took alot) and a sanctum sanctorum in of itself is more plot device than a actual utility for the character. A SS isn't game-breaking as much as soomething that defines the character in terms of quality of life and position in society.

If anything if a character in CN has a Sanctum Sanctorum or other Background 6 backgrounds, I think if the character has a 6 dot, it should create some sort of norotiety or fame more than anything.

I fully accept the fact Kei would be a target, yes I prepared for that. I think this factor instead should be noted.

But, we are confusing the situation, the conversation should be kept to Quantum 6. Putting over 9000 other things on the table just makes this feel more like the US congress.

Let's get back to the situation at hand if we want to revisit Q6. Otherwise we should let the vote stand and carry on from there.

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I think the only way I am changing my vote to allow Q6, is with the QMasteries and other problem L4 powers banned.

This is not a terribly helpful or insightful input into this conversation. Firstly, only Mastery 1 can be taken by novas with Q6, so there are no 'Masteries'. Secondly, what exactly are the problems you mentioned? Pretty much everyone has agreed that Crosstime Travel should be banned, so aside from that what do you have a problem with?,,

As for the sanctum situation, It takes a boatload of XP to build truely crazy sanctums (for instance when I get to post Kei's carrier... that took alot) and a sanctum sanctorum in of itself is more plot device than a actual utility for the character. A SS isn't game-breaking as much as soomething that defines the character in terms of quality of life and position in society.

A Sanctum Sanctorum takes 34xp, which is not expensive, and which - even at the basic level - grants access to Q6-levels of mechanical effect (notably with the Traveler, Nexus or Thousand Eyes enhancements - all of the other enhancements mostly just represent a whole ton of free NPs dumped into your character's sheet for an initial cost of 12xp). This is not expensive.

A second level of Sanctum Sanctorum kicks the final cost all the way up to 85xp, which is expensive. However, by the time you get to the second level of Sanctorum, your Sanctum can potentially be incredibly powerful.

Adding a sixth dot of quantum costs 40xp (or 20, if you want to go ahead and except two dots of permanent taint for one dot of quantum), after which you still have to pay for the sixth dot in your various powers you'd like to raise that high, along with the costs for extras. By the time you've raised even a single power with 5 dots in it (never mind six) to the level of Mastery 1, you will have spent 63xp. I can take a Sanctum Sanctorum with The Thousand Eyes as its enhancement and have the equivalent of Q6-level sensory abilities for 34xp - nearly half the price. For 85xp I can have that plus Nexus or any of the other Enhancements, plus all of the non-enhanced Features (30 of them) that I got just by raising my Sanctum background up to 5 twice. Raising a Q6 nova to a similar level of power will take at least that many xp (again, unless I'm willing to go all taint-monkey), and will probably cost more than that.

So I'm afraid I have to disagree with this, Tommy.

---------------------------------------------------------------

All of this is especially true in my own case, as I am only looking to take Q6 as a part of Zhenglai's developing, and then proceeding to teach, Qi Meng. Taking a 6th dot of Quantum is the only really reasonable - realistic - way for Zhenglai to accrue taint in a setting like Cosmos Nova, due to the fact that he wouldn't purchase a power tainted, he's not especially likely to go maxing his powers like a fiend and developing scads of temp. taint that way, and in Cosmos Nova we don't get a dot of taint at Quantum 5 like normal.

In other words, I want Q6 (which I will have to pay 40xp for) just so that I can then learn the Qi Meng techniques (totaling another 14xp - just for the techniques, never mind the specialty levels for the Martial Art or the other techniques not specifically related to dealing with taint) that will allow him to both purge any of his own taint, prevent himself from developing any more, and be able to pass those techniques along to others, after which I'll then need to go about actually purging the taint gained from taking Q6 (another 30xp). That doesn't even include any possible use I might eventually put having Quantum 6 to, like purchasing the sixth dot in a power or adding some extras or something. That's all extra xp on top of the 84xp I just costed out for you.

So don't talk to me about what's "expensive", because believe me: I already know. Probably better than you.

---------------------------------------------------------------

As it happens, I was going to propose a modification to Q6 that was even more stringent than Telluris' proposal, but then I took a second look at the Sanctum Background the other day and completely changed my mind. I've been meaning to put up my current thoughts on the matter since then, but was trying to get another Zhenglai post done first; this new round of conversation has caused me to speak up before that, however.

[A NOTE FOR CLARIFICATION: The following is not meant to disparage the Sanctum Background or imply that it should be removed from play - I'm just pointing some things out about it and what it says in regards to whether Q6 should be allowed.]

Frankly, given what Sanctum Sanctorum (and, to a lesser extent, the Sanctum background itself) grants a player who takes it, I really don't see why I should:

1) Not be allowed to take Q6 for my character, and,

2) Have to put up with any restrictions on it at all, other than the obligatory "no Crosstime Travel" rule (since that would legitimately destabilize the gameworld in a way that no one wants).

Seriously.

I am in no way joking when I say that, nor being dramatic just to make a point.

I'm just making an observation: that Sanctum Sanctorum grants access to tremendous amounts of power, equivalent to and, in some respects, superior to, Quantum 6 and the powers/extras available upon reaching it.

And expressing an opinion based on that observation: that it is unfair, close-minded, prejudiced, intolerant, shortsighted, and, to some extent, elitist for others on this forum to forebay me from taking Quantum 6 just because they're (you're) "uncomfortable" with it. (Because you cannot possibly have another reason for not wanting me to at least have the option of potentially taking it - as I have just amply demonstrated, Sanctum Sanctorum is, in all ways that matter, effectively the same as letting a nova have Q6, so the argument "Q6 is too powerful and abusive, therefore it should be banned" is illogical - or at least hypocritical - and therefore invalid in any reasonable discourse.)

---------------------------------------------------------------

That all said, what I would suggest for allowing Q6 is this:

1) Any character who wants to take Quantum 6 should have to submit to a "review by the board" - in other words, subject their characters to a vote cast by all active players in Cosmos Nova. They can officially post this request either in the OOC thread, or in some thread especially created for this purpose, after which time the official vote begins.

2) Those voting players should carefully review the proposal of the player asking for Q6 and decide if their character has justification for taking it.

3) Justification should include:

--3.1) Does the character have a real, story-driven motivation or cause for taking Q6 (having the xp to spare for it doesn't mean you should be allowed to take it - the character's story so far should point towards something that might actually result in the nova becoming fundamentally more powerful)

--3.2) Aside from being "real", is that justification valid (maybe the nova has amply demonstrated their drive to get better/faster/stronger/whatever-er, but so what? lots of novas worked towards that in the canon setting - how many of them ever reached Q6 because of it? it should take something more than just that to actually push the character past the brink of Q5 and into the Q6 range)

--3.3) Can the player (not the character) be trusted with Q6? (if you've played a character with Q6 in another forum and made a mess of things, or if you've already made folks nervous with your Q5 nova here, why should anyone agree to let you have Q6?)

4) Should the player's request for permission to take Quantum 6 for their character be denied, they should need to wait some set amount of time before attempting to request this right a second (or third, or fourth...) time. I would recommend something like six months.

5) Crosstime Travel should be banned (right now the Compiled Rules say nothing about it, BTW), and Biomanipulation should be either banned or broken out into separate, approved, powers as was done in A&A.

6) I would also be open to considering Telluris' proposition of breaking Mastery 1 out into separate parts - given what Sanctum Sanctorums allow, I don't really see where the problem with Mastery 1 as written lies, but neither would I care much if its effectiveness were reduced somewhat.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Finally, the following should be noted about what Q6 does and does not give you, since there seems to be a certain amount of confusion on this point:

QUANTUM 6 GIVES YOU

  • A 6th dot of Quantum
  • 1 dot of Permanent Taint (2 dots if you purchased it tainted for half-cost)
  • The ability to raise Attributes up to 6 dots (though there are, as Telluris pointed out, Bodymods that will let you raise them higher)
  • The ability to raise Mega-Attributes up to 6 dots (or to the level of your [Relevant Attribute] rating, whichever is lower)
  • The ability to raise Powers to 6 dots
  • The ability to purchase certain techniques for L3 Suite Powers with a Q-minimum rating of 6
  • The ability to add a single Extra to a L1-3 Power without raising its level (any additional Extras - beyond the first - will raise the Power's level as normal)
  • Because of this:
    • You can add up to 4 Extras to an L1 Power (with each one after the first raising it one level apiece)
    • You can add up to 3 Extras to an L2 Power (with each one after the first raising it one level apiece)
    • And you can add up to 2 Extras to an L3 Power (you get the idea...)
    • Mastery 1 still raises the Power by 1 level, no matter how many Extra have or have not been applied to it already
  • The ability to purchase L4 Powers with a Q-minimum rating of 6 (because some have a higher Q-minimum)
  • The ability to purchase the Boosted Attunement Background and/or the third and fourth levels of the N-Stage Node Background
QUANTUM 6 DOES NOT GIVE YOU
  • Any automatic increases in Quantum points
  • The ability to raise Attributes, Mega-Attributes or Powers higher than 6 dots
  • The ability to raise Abilities higher than 5 dots (see Ability Mastery for that)
  • The ability to raise Backgrounds higher than 5 dots, barring the exceptions mentioned in the first list (see Background Enhancements for everything else)
  • The ability to purchase all L4 Powers (as mentioned, some have a Q-minimum higher than 6)
  • The ability to add even a single Extra to a L4 Power

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I was going to respond to you, I was going to bring up how a Sanctum really outside of pretend bling for a character has no real bearing beyond that. I've looked. Sanctum isn't that game breaking.

Q6 opens up many L4 powers, some of them ARE game breaking.

I would go into more details, but I do not have my books with me and calling me ignorant, prejudiced, and elitist makes me want to go further in this conversation even less. As there are things in the world that deserve such labels and what is going on here is not one of them.

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I was going to respond to you, I was going to bring up how a Sanctum really outside of pretend bling for a character has no real bearing beyond that. I've looked. Sanctum isn't that game breaking.

I didn't say it was. That was sort of my point, in fact.,,

Q6 opens up many L4 powers, some of them ARE game breaking.

Name them, please (note my use of the word 'please' - I am not making demands, here). Bear in mind that some L4 powers require Q7 to take. Also bear in mind that problems with L4 powers do not constitute problems with Quantum 6. What they constitute, is problems with L4 powers. :),,

I would go into more details, but I do not have my books with me and calling me ignorant, prejudiced, and elitist makes me want to go further in this conversation even less. As there are things in the world that deserve such labels and what is going on here is not one of them.

Allow me to first point out that I did not call you anything. Allow me, secondly, to point out that I didn't use the word 'ignorant' at all in my last post. Then, please, allow me to elaborate on my choice of words:

In order of appearance, the words that I believe have offended you are: unfair, close-minded, prejudiced, intolerant, shortsighted, elitist, and hypocritical.

Unfair: Not just or evenhanded; biased. I chose this because this is what the decision to allow Sanctum Sanctorum but disallow Quantum 6 looks like, after a careful review of just what, exactly, each allows (and assuming a banning of Crosstime Travel).

Close-minded: Intolerant of the beliefs and opinions of others; stubbornly unreceptive to new ideas. I had actually meant to use narrow-minded, but somehow close-minded is what made it into the post. Since I have zero evidence at this time for any lack of receptivity to new ideas from anyone involved in CN, I can only apologize for this mistake.

Prejudiced: Having an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason. It did not (and does not) seem to me that the opinions expressed about Q6 in this thread were (or are) based on a solid knowledge of the rules that Aberrant uses. (Some of you may very well have first-hand experience of games going wrong wherein a specific character or characters had a sixth dot of Quantum on their sheets, but based on the conversations in this thread, it does not seem that the actual rules in Aberrant were being paid much mind in those games or that the specific "going-to-hell" examples given really apply, since the only specific powers that have been mentioned so far are either not available at Q6 or are not allowed in CN.) It also seems to me that disallowing Q6, while simultaneously allowing something else that gives a character access to pretty much the same sorts of things that Q6 grants access to, lacks reason.

Intolerant: Not tolerant of others' views, beliefs, or behavior that differs from one's own. I chose this because it seems to me that if I pursue a Sanctum Sanctorum then I will be accepted in CN, whereas if I pursue Quantum 6 I will be derided in CN. Since this is more or less exactly what happened to me in chat immediately after putting up my last post, I see no reason to change my views on this point.

Shortsighted: Lacking imagination or foresight. Everyone here has plenty of imagination, but allowing SS and disallowing Q6 - given their high levels of similarity - does not cause me to think that a great deal of forethought or planning was put into the decision.

Elitist: The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority. In practical terms, elitism results in one group of people attempting to prevent another group of people from attaining positions of privilege or power. The current vote tally of this thread demonstrates that the current viewpoint is that those who pursue SS as a means to position or power are totally OK, while those who choose Q6 are not.

However, in retrospect; while the word's usage was technically correct, I can't really see where it adds anything to the point I was trying to make (including it after I'd already used prejudiced and intolerant was, if nothing else, redundant), and I can definitely see where it might be inflammatory for some. Given both of those things together, I apologize for my use of this word as well.

Hypocritical: Of the nature of hypocrisy, or pretense of having virtues, beliefs, principles, etc., that one does not actually possess. Saying that Quantum 6 is abusive or too powerful or just too much, or that games always crash and burn when it's allowed may or may not be true - that is largely a matter of opinion. Saying this, but then also saying that something else that allows more or less exactly the same things is totally acceptable? That is hypocritical, hence my use of the word.

To all: If you are a player in CN, and you feel that one or more of the words I just finished elaborating on - and that I did, in fact, use in my previous post - do not apply to you, then please feel free to explain why. Or, alternately, you can simply choose to ignore all of this, not explain yourself at all, and live your life content in your belief that you were being none of these things when you voted "Nay" to allowing Quantum 6.

I felt the need to add this because some folks in the Chat Room expressed to me that my previous post came across as though I was "steamrolling" my opinion over others, and essentially forcing people to either agree with me or admit they were something they did not want to be. That was not my intention, and none of you should feel obligated (let alone required) to respond to anything I've written. If you will take my advice: don't let my opinions (or anyone else's) dictate your thoughts or actions. :)

Additionally, a number of people seemed to be quite upset that I was, in their view, expressing opinions as fact. Here's the thing; unless you're telling me something as incontrovertible as "if you pick up a ball, hold it out at arm's length, and then let go, that ball will fall to the ground", then almost anything you might choose to tell me is - by at least some measure - an opinion and not a fact. 85F is hot, if one is measuring temperatures by what is the average temperature across most of planet earth, but to many people 85F is just "kind of warm" and your statement that 85F is "hot" is an opinion, not a fact.

Further, an 'opinion' is not a 'feeling', and an awful lot of what was directed my way in chat after my last post had far more to do with the latter rather than the former. I can barely control what I feel on any given day, let alone what any of you feel, and I also cannot help what my opinions make you feel, just as you cannot help what yours make me feel. So please, do not make this about feelings. That is wholly counterproductive (in my opinion, at any rate). Let us please keep this at the level of facts and opinions. :)

Finally, by my measure, SS and Q6 are equivalent in all pertinent ways (to this discussion). Therefore, disallowing one and allowing the other can be reasonably described as unfair, narrow-minded, prejudiced, intolerant, shortsighted, and hypocritical. Each of those words has a meaning, and each of those meanings provides an adequate description of one or more aspects of the behavior of allowing one thing but disallowing something else that is essentially the same as the allowed thing. Please note that the preceding sentence is not an opinion - and it certainly isn't a feeling - it is a 'fact'. The opinion portion is the view that SS and Q6 are equivalent. I believe my opinion in regards to this is correct and have explained my reasons for why I feel this way.

Other players in CN may disagree that SS and Q6 are equivalent, and according to this viewpoint disallowing one and allowing the other could not be described using all - or perhaps any - of the words whose definitions I provided above. In this case, it is no longer a question 'fact' vs. 'opinion', but rather a question of my apparently being wrong entirely.

I would very much appreciate it if someone who holds to this second viewpoint would list and explain the 'facts' they are using to base this viewpoint on, however. (But am not "requiring" anyone to.) :)

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Right. And I'm supposed to respond to that in what way, exactly?

If I respond in kind, then I'm being passive-aggressive, and I would most definitely be "condescending" at that point too. Whereas if I back down and apologize, out of fear that you or others might say even worse things about me, then I'm the hypocrite.

Your tactics aren't poor, exactly, but they definitely aren't helping the discussion at all....

Your post is a case in point, Mala: outbursts of feeling aren't opinions or facts, nor are they helpful. That was why I ended my first post with the admission that I was being emotional, BTW.

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It wasn't tactics, it was an observation and my opinion on that observation. And it's your second post that is exceedingly condescending and, in my opinion, squarely in the full-throttle jackass arena.

,,

Instead of actually addressing the issues and looking towards resolution, you're focusing on how you're right and everyone else is just wrong or apparently in need of an elementary dictionary.

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And no, I'm not looking for a resolution of this. One, because I don't have a current character in CN, though I do have one I might come back to, and two - and here's the important part - this discussion was had and voted on by the active players three months ago. It's insulting to step in well after the fact and bitch about it. I say bitching because you've already acknowledged that you hold no belief that anything you're saying here will change opinions or get what you want in the game, so I'm not seeing how that second post is anything else. And since that's my opinion, according to what you said in chat, that makes it fact until you can convince me of a different opinion.

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The second post was put up as per Carver's request, which I acquiesced to. The first was put up because it was my right to place a vote, and I chose to exercise it. I did get a touch emotional while I was as it, though, which I admitted to.

Also, so far as I can tell, after careful consideration of both the canon and custom rules in use here in CN, everyone who voted against allowing Quantum 6 but keeping the custom 6-dot Backgrounds is wrong. That is my opinion. You do not have to like it, and you can definitely complain at me about it, but it is my opinion.

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For the record I like Telluris' suggestion on breaking Mastery out into separate extras. That gives powers a nice boost if you care to use them, but don't break the game the way mastery would as written in the APG.

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In my original vote I said I was ambivalent about Q6, but would lean toward allowing it if the majority went that way. Even if you call my vote a yes, that would make it No's 5, Yes's 3 so it still wouldn't pass unless others changed their votes.

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That said, Cent, there are other options besides making Q6 available. You want to have a certain technique, or several of them because that is what it will take for you to achieve your vision for the character. If you can't convince folks to change their votes, how about petitioning the group to allow Zheng to be able to achieve those techniques instead, by waiving the Q6 prereq for them?

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There isn't a Q6 prerequisite for Qi Meng; rather Q6 was the smoothest option for acquiring taint in Cosmos Nova where, for whatever reason, novas are sort of given something of a pass on taint (in that they don't get any for having Q5 and costs are generally low enough that there's little temptation to cut corners and buy things tainted). Other options were largely limited to "buying powers tainted", which is not in-character for Zhenglai. In the original compiled rules (which remain unchanged and do not reflect the results of the votes here, BTW) Q6 was allowed and I had been operating under the assumption that I would be able to simply purchase Q6 at some point after the subforum's 1 year anniversary, acquire a point of taint, bump Z's Mega-Intelligence up to six dots, have him reach a super-human epiphany, blah blah blah. Quantum-powered kung fu shenanigans ensue, and hopefully I manage to make it all seem really mystical and cool and "enlightened" in the process. Simple, smooth, no muss no fuss, easy-peasy, and everybody's happy.

Then I noticed this thread (which, again, is not reflected in the compiled rules, where I had been going to, y'know, see what the rules were) and it irked me rather a lot, due mostly to its completely interfering with my plans for the character. Hence my admission of emotional influence and decision to end my initial post there. My actual arguments about the apparent lack of logic or fairness in the votes made were based on my best attempts at real, unbiased logic, but I still felt they were colored by my own frustration at the time. When I closed out my first post my intention was to go find some other way to inflict some taintiness on poor Zheng that would, hopefully, not seem wholly contrived, and then get on with life.

Afterwards, however, Carver told me that if I submitted a request for a another vote on the matter, and presented my arguments for why, along with any suggestions for mitigating the potential harm from Quantum 6, that it would be considered. Apparently she was wrong... but, at the time, that had sounded reasonable to me, and I'd intended to put up such a request at some point in the near(ish) future. But then Telluris put up his post earlier today and Tommy responded to it. The two posts together prompted me to go ahead and post my thoughts ahead of schedule.

And here we are. My stance regarding Quantum 6 vis a vis Sanctum Sanctorum is as stated in my previous posts, and that opinion seems to offend some folks. So far, however, the only person who has attempted to provide any counter-arguments is Tommy, but unfortunately those have been either very vague or else misinformed (I do, however, sincerely appreciate him taking the time to offer counter-arguments at all). Others have settled for expressing only their emotional response to my previous posts, either here or in chat, without providing any reasons for why they feel my stance is wrong - or, actually, even if they think my stance is wrong at all. That is their right, I suppose, but I'm not sure where it's supposed to get us.

I fully realize that Q6 opens up doors to things that can potentially break a game. What I fail to see is why the only possible solution to that is to ban the sixth dot of Quantum, as opposed to the game breaking Powers that folks're thinking of when they say that Q6 breaks games. Also, since Sanctum Sanctorum allows access to the rough equivalent of certain Quantum Powers with Mastery 1 on them, as well as to certain L4 powers (specifically Quantum Awareness), I also question the logic, personal bias, and motivation of the people who voted according to the "Q6 breaks games" mantra at all. My apologies if that hurts someone's feelings, but I'm not going to lie, keep my mouth shut, or roll over just to spare the feelings of a bunch of folks who are, presumably, mature adults capable of self-reflection, reasoned argument and debate, and of admitting when they're wrong (assuming they are wrong, of course).

Given the way that Sanctum Sanctorum operates, I don't really see what difference it will make to allow Q6 and Mastery 1, hence my statement that I didn't really see a reason to limit or restrict Mastery. I do see a reason to ban Crosstime Travel, as well Biomanipulation as it's written. As I mentioned before, though, I don't actually care if Mastery 1 is allowed at all, let alone if it's broken up into separate Extras. As for the other L4 powers, the only one that's particularly interesting to me (and only slightly, at that) is Quantum Awareness. The others I really don't care about, and the only one that looks directly harmful to a game to me is Quantum Authority which requires Quantum 7 before a nova can purchase it, making it entirely unimportant in the context of this debate.

Made a minor edit to clarify something in parentheses that could have been misinterpreted otherwise. Changed "assuming they are" to "assuming they are wrong". Should be a clearer and less ambiguous phrase.

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Warning: I get a bit tongue-in-cheek a few times. I'm not mocking; writing it that way really helps me to keep myself from getting uncivil.

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I did tell Cent to reopen the discussion on Q6, because CN is the place where the inmates run the asylum. ;) So I figured we could review it and see if the group wanted to change its mind. I didn't realize the train wreck that would result from doing this. For the record, I believe that open discussion is good (if only for watching while eating popcorn in some cases ;) ).

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I just re-read the stuff about SS in the book, and unless I'm missing another section in the Adventure! book, I am completely baffled why you think that SS = Q6+Mastery powerwise, Cent. The latter is a game-breaking combo of two traits that lead to powers getting too big to manage and cats marrying dogs. The former is a schway house in a volcano or something. Yes, inside that place, your PC is nigh invulnerable but with Mastery, the PC is always insanely powerful, no matter where he goes. I may not understand what SS does, fully. But I've read what I can find about it, and with the knowledge I have, comparing the two seems unbalanced.

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Let's really look at a power that Q6 allows:

Disease Authority

--Diagnosis allows identification of diseases in an area, without individual examination; Range is Q+PR x 100m, area is Q+PRx 10m, Duration is Q+PR hours

--Pestilence allows the nova to create or intensify a disease and can do things like make AIDS airborne transmission for a mere two sux; Range is Q+PR x 100m, area is Q+PR m, Duration is instant

--Sterilization allows the nova to kill any harmful disease-carrying microbe out and somehow also allows them to wipe out cancer; Range is Q+PR x 1000m, area is Q+PRx 100m, Duration is instant

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Those are the only three things it does, but all of those are really powerful. First, the ranges are huge and the area is large. Pestilence allows you to start a plague of biblical proportions, for a mere five successes. Now, given that the die pool is Perception x Disease Authority, you're looking at a pool of 6 regular dice and (because this is CN and things be cheap) 5 mega dice. At roughly 1 sux per 3 dice, you have 2 sux from the regular, and at least another 2 megas. Pop a willpower just to be sure and the world is a corpse.

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That right there is why I don't like Level 4 powers, and when you combine them with CN's power costs, you end up with game-smashing combos. Two things pop immediately to mind. First, QF died because the players almost couldn't sneeze without laying waste to vast tracks of land. Going off-planet was the only way to let loose without causing mayhem on a global level. CN is not that bad, and probably won't get there. But the principle applies: the world will become a place where massive damage has to be done in order to challenge the PCs. Second, that's exactly what has happened in every other game I've seen go past Q5. Challenging the PCs starts to require global threats, which affects every other PC in the game. Consent becomes tenuous when the Plague to End All is ravaging the globe and everyone around you is dying. Or when a guy with 6 dots in Q-Bolt and Mastery walks into Tokyo with a grudge against the city.

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Let's revisit Mastery briefly.

  • L1 powers cost nothing to use; L2 and L3 cost half.
  • The power's range and area change m to km.
  • The power's effect doubles, so Armor grants +6 instead of +3.
  • Concentration powers become Maintenance measured in turns; Maintenance powers change from turns to hours or scenes.

Again, you have something that could potentially affect the world, a shared consent world. If we had a bonafide ST, that would be different. But we don't. All we have is the trust that someone's not going to jack it all to hell. I trust a lot of people here not to shit on my sundae. I trust a number of people here to do that and then claim I'm a bitch when I complain (I am a bitch, but what they mean is "shut up and eat my shit, and tell me how good it tastes as you swallow"). As I told Cent in our private conversation last week (I trust he won't mind me sharing this small part), I am not comfortable with some players here having Q6 (we weren't even talking Mastery or I would have been cursing more). There are some players I would be comfortable with them having Q6, but because it's not fair to say, "Player X, you suck so no Q6 for you, but Player Y, you're a good un, having all the Q6s!" You can't pick and choose.

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So I remain against Mastery and against Q6. Thanks for reading.

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Just a note, as having run a quantum 8+ game, where I let people get to mastery 2.. I'm never likely to allow mastery in a game I run again.. I might someday allow some aspects of mastery, but it will not be for a long time, and it will never be all of it. So my vote is with Dawn..no, however I'm not invested in Cosmos Nova at this time, so my vote is more or less from a watcher's view.

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Qualifier: The following “generic sanctum” variations were created very much off-the-cuff. I made no effort to streamline or “min-max” anything. I just grabbed stuff at random and then applied some of the various Enhancements to it.

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1 GENERIC 5-DOT SANCTUM:

Host: 1 FP (feature point); can host 4 individuals indefinitely, 16 for a month, add a month per 1 fewer guest until down to 4

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Professional: 1 FP; adds +2 to relevant rolls

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Security:

· Defensive: 5 FPs; 5 [10] soak/armor and +10 HLs

· Offensive: 3 FPs; 9d10 damage (B, let’s say, just to be nice), external range 50m

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Mobile: 3 FPs; Flight speed of 1000kph

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Sensors: 1 FP; Standard, range 200m

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Remote Access: 1FP; 1 remote access key; no maximum range (for teleporting to the sanctum, or back to starting point), no cost

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Please note that this is already quite powerful – though by no means “Q6” powerful.

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GENERIC 5-DOT SANCTUM W/SANCTORUM ENHANCEMENT VERSION 1.1:

Traveler: Sanctum may warp up to 1 light year per jump; has a Q-pool of 30, recovers qp at a rate of 1 per hour. If nova is touching the Sanctum they can transfer their own qp to the sanctum to accomplish the warp.

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This is Warp with either all dice pools maxed while still under the Q5 limit, coupled with a very good roll, or Warp with Mastery 1 tacked onto it and an average roll. Considering that this works without a roll, I’m inclined to call this Warp with Mastery 1. Plus 30 Quantum points.

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GENERIC 5-DOT SANCTUM W/SANCTORUM ENHANCEMENT VERSION 1.2:

Lyceum: I’ll just sum this up. The sanctum has 5 dots in all skills, gets 1 auto-sux on all skill rolls, has the Pedagogue Enhancement, and automatically succeeds at all instruction rolls.

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I’m not real sure what to call this. It isn’t directly comparable to anything Q6 gets you access to, but is kind of better than anything Q6 gets you access to. Please read the rules regarding the Instruction ability in the A:PG, then read the rules regarding the Pedagogue enhancement in Forceful Personalities, then take a good, hard look at what I just purchased for my character.

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GENERIC 5-DOT SANCTUM W/SANCTORUM ENHANCEMENT VERSION 1.3:

Nexus: Sanctum has a number of remote access keys available “as per the Host rating” (I’m not sure if this means I have to have the Host rating in the first place, nor if this means I have 4 keys or 16). These keys all have no range for t-porting to sanctum or to locations “in sensory range of a computer system”, otherwise range is equal to sanctum’s sensory range, and there is no cost. Additionally, the Sanctum can copy information from any system or “data stream” with a “static 5 successes” (using which dice pool, though, I’m not sure).

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Since none of the default t-porting powers allow abilities like this, I would say this is also better than Quantum 6 plus Mastery, though with obvious limitations.

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I didn’t mention the benefits gained if one has Cyberkinesis which, if one does have it, allows something similar to Mastery on that Power.

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GENERIC 5-DOT SANCTUM W/SANCTORUM ENHANCEMENT VERSION 1.4:

The Thousand Eyes: Sanctum has all sensor options (UV, Infrared, Sonar, Quantum scanners, etc.) and range becomes kilometers instead of meters. Also grants [Host rating] remotes (again, not sure if this means 4 or 16 – or maybe just 1?), none of which have a limited maximum operating range from the sanctum, and all of which have full sensory capabilities and ranges. Additionally, these remotes can copy information from systems and data streams, as per the Nexus enhancement. Finally, if the nova has Cyberkinesis, they suffer no difficulty penalties for affecting any computer system with range of their sanctum or their sanctum’s sensors.

,,

This actually better in most respects than Quantum Awareness with Mastery and the MIRV Extra added to it. Also, the data-copying stuff doesn’t have a direct comparison to anything a nova can normally do, but given the ranges it’s pretty freakin’ amazing. Finally, the benefits to Cyberkinesis are also comparable to, if not superior to Mastery.

,, ,,

Other Enhancements:

The “Unknowable” enhancement grants the equivalent of Cipher 5 plus the 6th dot Enigma enhancement (on the sanctum only, of course), plus the equivalent of Psychic Shield 3 (with some Weaknesses built in), plus Blank 5, plus Invisibility 5 with the Enhanced Effect Extra (assuming Q5 as is normal in CN and assuming the nova has no M.Wits, then 9 successes is the average that a nova with Q5, Wits 5, and Inviz 5 would get on a roll).

,,

That’s not Q6 by any stretch, but it is quite potent, and quite the bargain at 34xp (1NP and 12xp, if the player purchased their initial 5 dots in the background at chargen and only the enhancement with xp).

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“Tricked Out”: I’m not entirely sure what all you would or could do with 40 extra feature points, but I definitely wasn’t referring to this when I was comparing an SS to Q6.

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“Unassailable Security”: Neither of the two options on this enhancement operate at the Q6 level, which is all well and good. So I have no comment here.

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“Micronation”: not directly comparable to quantum powers at all, though it is allowing access to a large percentage of the other backgrounds a nova could potentially have otherwise and it, from a strictly narrative point of view, gives rather a lot of power to the nova possessing this sanctum.

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Conclusion:

A Sanctum Sanctorum does, in fact, grant access to capabilities that can normally only be gained by attaining Quantum 6, and then purchasing certain Powers or Extras only accessible to novas with a Quantum 6 rating.

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Sanctum Sanctorum also grants things that are, in some cases, better than what Q6 will give you access to – in some cases much better – and it also grants access to some things that Q6 doesn't grant access to at all.

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Now, am I saying that any of the above is “game breaking”? No, I’m not. That isn’t my point. My point is that it is allowing access to things that Q6 grants access to.

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This leads me to the conclusion that peoples’ problem with Quantum 6 is not with Quantum 6, but rather with specific Powers or Extras that Quantum 6 grants access to. This is what I have been driving at. This is what I have been asking for a reassessment of.

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Carver, your example of Disease Mastery is valid as an example of a game-breaking use of an L4 power and, by extension and implication, of Quantum 6. It’s also a fine example of someone breaking Wheaton’s Law and being a giant dick; which, I had thought, was just sort of frowned upon in general and not really dependant on the access to Quantum 6 or lack of same.

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Given that someone with Coyote’s level of M.Int and a maxed rating in Medicine (like Zhenglai, for example) could also unleash a world-ending plague, were they so inclined, I’m not really inclined to see your argument as a strong example of why Q6 shouldn’t be allowed, but rather for why player-to-player accountability as a gaming concept in CN should be strongly advocated and practiced.

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Your example of Mastery’s potential abuses is also valid, but two things: as I noted above, SS is already granting access to the equivalent or better than Mastery on certain powers – and for a lower cost; and pretty much everyone involved in this discussion has voiced a willingness, if not a strong desire, to modify or even outright ban Mastery from play.

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So I’m still left with my original point of contention. What exactly is wrong with Quantum 6?

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In fact, no: let me reiterate the question I asked in my very first post in this thread: What would be so difficult/complicated/terrifying about the following rules qualification: Q6 allowed 1 year after game start, no Mastery extra, no Crosstime Travel, no Disease Authority? (In retrospect, I would also add Biomanipulation to that.)

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I may not see the point in significantly modifying Mastery, but I’m more than willing to ban it outright, and just as willing to break it out into separate Extras as Telluris suggested. Likewise, while I don’t see the point in banning Disease Authority, given the alternate methods of achieving similarly devastating effects that are already available to our characters, I am more than willing to ban it outright. Same for Crosstime Travel, same for Biomanipulation. If folks have problems with the other L4 Q6-minimum powers, I’m all for discussing those as well.

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I don't see how Sanctum Sanctorum fits in with the whole Quantum 6 issue.

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Also we have been operating with the background rules for almost as long as CN has existed and NOW it's an issue?

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It almost feels like the Sanctum Sanctorum issue is being used to keep the Quantum 6 debate going.

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I'm not seeing how Sanctum Sanctorum is overpowered with your examples, all I'm seeing is your custom rules for it. Q6 on the other hand is much more overpowered compared to what Sanctum Sanctorum gives right now, even in the overall scheme of things.

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I'm sorry, I'm not seeing it.

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Tommy, I hope you'll understand that I'm not trying to be rude or insulting when I say this, but your confusion seems to be the result of you not actually reading other people's posts - or at least not processing what you're reading.

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If you had been you would have realized how SS fits into the Q6 issue.

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You would have realized that no one has an issue with the background rules (that I know of, at any rate). ((Although, correction on that: my initial post did have some angrily-phrased complaints about SS in it, and if that's what you're referring to then I completely understand your confusion. However, at the end of that post I pointed out that I was very frustrated, and I've since pointed out that my frustration was coloring my words. I do not, for the record, have any problems with the backgrounds as written.))

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You would also realize that SS is most definitely being used (not "almost" being used) to continue the debate.

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And finally, that no one has claimed that SS is overpowered, and that everyone has agreed that what Quantum 6 grants access to is overpowered (though myself and Telluris obviously disagree that Q6 itself is a problem).

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To state what all of my posts have boiled down to (and what I have already stated in at least as clear terms before now), my argument boils down to this:

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Some of the L4 powers are potentially game-breaking and should be banned from play; Mastery is also problematic and should either be banned or heavily altered as Telluris suggested; Biomanipulation (which is technically an L3 power) is also problematic and should be banned. Assuming all of this were done, Quantum 6 would not allow anything game-breaking.

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That right there is the crux of this entire debate.

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SS was brought into the discussion (by me) because it does allow Q6-level effects - not game-breaking effects, just Q6-level effects. This being the case, it is clearly not true that "Q6 breaks games", because if it were true, then so would SS break games. Rather it is the case that some of the powers/extras that Q6 grants access to break games. My point in comparing the two in this way was to show that we would be better served by addressing what is actually broken, rather than "throwing the baby out with the bath water", to coin an old phrase.

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I've just read what you posted and to me this reads as a complete contradiction as to what you're wanting.

I'm physically and mentally done with this debate.

I am not going to approve anything that comes out of this and only vote to keep the status quo. Because it's what was agreed to months ago.I am not interested in doing a massive amount of book keeping, crosschecking with everyone to make sure I'm not stepping on toes, or checking the roles to see if some other voice from the ether is going to jump in and re-open a vote.

I'm sorry, I am very, very fatigued on this whole matter and It's leading me to believe that I am not going to be happy no matter how this turns out outside of us just going on from where we left off. This whole game has gone from playing out our stories, to things that should have been sorted out at the damn beginning of the game.

In a way, that was my reasoning behind my posting that proposal to change systems as that system was a far more defined system and it seems, even if unconciously, that is what people really want all along. Yet the transition would destroy this game faster than any arguing about rules will ever do.

We have been going fine outside of one or two hiccups for the year this game has been going on. We've not had issues. Suddenly this whole game is now in question it feels and it's just further delaying posts that are in general scarce around here.

That is why right now, I am motioning to table this whole conversation and continue with things as they are.

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Tommy, I’m not okay with stopping an entire conversation because you’re drained by it. You should step back and pull out; you’ve said your piece and put down your vote. Also, this was sorted at the start of the game. We were to get access to Q6 and all the goodies that come with it in March of this year. This conversation and vote started because we wanted to change what was set at the beginning of the game.

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I’m a bit tipsy, apologies in advance for stuff being off or poorly spelled/worded.

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So, back to what I was thinking at the start of this post, which was namely that I’m willing to concede that Q6, in and off itself, isn’t the problem. It’s the jump of power that’s built into the game by WW developers who couldn’t develop Burrows and Bunnies if I gave them an outline, much less a game of actual complexity.

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As an aside, I’m now really excited, because I just read that B&B came out only two years after D&D. Wild, huh? I had no idea it was so old. Also, it was the first RPG to have a detailed martial arts rules – called Bun Fu!! And it had the first attempt at a skill system, and women liked it as much as men did. Oh, and you could play a non-human for the first time!

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunnies_%26_Burrows

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I’m totally in shiny squirrel mode. Should I post this or wait until tomorrow? Ah fuck it, what’s the worst that could happen?

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Anyway… back to Q6 instead of cute bunnies. If Q6 were just another dot, I’d have no problem with it, and the way it’s written gives it way more than you get for it just being a dot of quantum. It’s a total gateway drug.

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I’m blaming Jer for this. He cursed me.

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Or maybe I shouldn’t post when tipsy.

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Q6 is not the devil. All the stuff it allows is. I’d love to say just Q6, without level 4 powers or Mastery. The only thing it’d do is increase quantum pools, raise the max amount of dots and allow level three powers to have an extra.

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I also don’t want to see Mastery in the game, even in bitty pieces. Even those pieces are unreasonably game altering, and I want my game to remain soft and fuzzy.

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And that’s what any gamer wants: their soft and fuzzy game. We should remember that. We shouldn’t fight about stupid stuff. We’re here to be players – make games, not war!

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Man, I should not post when tipsy.

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I’m blaming Jer for this. He cursed me.

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She tried to skin me for a Jer-bear rug! :P ...Though I suddenly suspect this is why a Bunnies RPG has suddenly entered the picture...

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Man, I should not post when tipsy.

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Let's just settle for that.

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Dawn: Fair enough. Also I should take your example as I should not post when frustrated as you probably (not sure on it) don't want to post tipsy.

I'm also in agreement. I just wanna game, man. That is really the reason why I posted what I did.

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