Aberrant RPG - Quantum Imprint?

[Gislef]

How do you get someone with Quantum Imprint to drop duplicated powers?

It's a maintenance power, and maintenance powers (presumably) fade after sleep. But what if someone has Mega-Stamina and never sleeps? A QIer can latch onto Mega-Strength and other stuff, and then what? Keep it forever?

[Krul]

Maintenance powers also cost quantum to sustain, you don't restore quantum while it's being drained... of course, there are ways around that, but with the basic power with no enhancements, that's the answer.

[Justin OOC]

eclipsidol fixes most problems like that... drains all their quantum denies them the effects of mega atts and enhancements, turns all the powers off at the end...

[Dave ST]

Re-read the section on durations. A maintenance power must be maintained every [Quantum + Power Rating] turns. Even at Quantum 5, Quantum Imprint 5, that character is only going to be able to maintain that power theft for about a of an half hour on 30 quantum points. Something else to consider: Outside of combat a maintained power only lasts for a scene, so about 20-30 minutes or so.

Also keep in mind that Quantum Imprint doesn't let you pick and choose what powers you keep or toss away. The moment you activate Imprint on another host, the Imprint your holding goes away (and the powers with it). Your character can only maintain a single stolen Quantum Signature. There are extras around that, but for sake of argument and simplicity I'm keeping it simple.

And where do people get the idea that Novas with Mega-Stamina never sleep? There are enhancements that remove the need for sleep, if your nova does not have those enhancements, they sleep like everyone else.

[Gislef]

"you don't restore quantum while it's being drained" I'm not seeing that in the rules. Could you clarify where it is? It's not clear that using quantum for maintenance means that a nova is not "at ease but not completely relaxing." (pg. 146). Maintenance doesn't require a Nova to concentrate. (pg. 179)

"And where do people get the idea that Novas with Mega-Stamina never sleep? There are enhancements that remove the need for sleep, if your nova does not have those enhancements, they sleep like everyone else."

From... page 160 of the rules? 1 dot of Mega-Stamina = "You can go for weeks without sleep." No mention of enhancements. I don't think everyone else can go weeks without sleep! I suppose it's not literally "never," but it's good enough. And presumably it just gets better from one dot. If one dot is weeks, what is five dots?

A maintenance power must be maintained every [Quantum + Power Rating] turns. Even at Quantum 5, Quantum Imprint 5, that character is only going to be able to maintain that power theft for about a of an half hour on 30 quantum points.

Well, yes, but that's 100 rounds of combat. Do you have many battles go that long?

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One question: do powers with no cost, cost 1 for Quantum Imprinters?

[Krul]

You assume your only going to be using quantum imprint, if you imprint someone else's powers, you also have to spend quantum to use them.. and yes, in answer to your question, it costs 1 more then the power costs for someone with the power.. so, even if the cost is 0, it costs the Q.Imprinter 1 point.

As to the other statement, I'm sorry, but I think that's just plain as day, if your using quantum, you are not relaxing, any other interpretation on the ST is generally being stupid (As an ST.. if the player takes advantage of such a stupid ST, they are just making use of a stupid ruling, which is not stupid). Also, if your relaxing and imprinting someone's powers, then clearly you don't need to be imprinting any powers, it's not vital to the game.. most of time, someone is going to use Q.Imprint when they need it, in battle or some similar situation..

Also, playing abberant, haven't you ever used up your Q.Pool quickly?

[Gislef]

"You assume your only going to be using quantum imprint, if you imprint someone else's powers, you also have to spend quantum to use them.."

We're not assuming that. But if you're duplicating Mega-Attributes and "no cost powers" (Armor, Claws, so on), then there may not be any quantum you need to spend on them. The Hulk, for instance, is a big bundle of no-cost powers. Which is why I asked my follow-up question above.

"it costs 1 more then the power costs for someone with the power.. so, even if the cost is 0, it costs the Q.Imprinter 1 point. "

Well, the first responsive question is, do Abilities and Attributes have a cost of 0, or no cost?

But we do think there's a difference between a power with no cost, and a power with 0 cost. Yes? No? You get into a grey area because it's hard to argue that, say, Linguistics ability has a cost of 0. You'd say that it has no cost. So then you got to figure out what costs 0, and what costs nothing. The wording on powers like Armor and Claws and their cost, could go either way.

"if your using quantum, you are not relaxing, any other interpretation on the ST is generally being stupid"

Agreed about relaxing. But can you regain quantum at the lower rate when you're "at ease." That's why we asked if you could regenerate Quantum while you're at ease, not relaxing (see my post above.)

"someone is going to use Q.Imprint when they need it, in battle or some similar situation.."

Or while they're waiting for battle, they're going to use QI to maintain their copied powers and be at ease the rest of the time so they can regain Quantum in-between. Hence one of our questions. Is keeping QI going just to maintain copied powers "at ease"? As above, we agree that it's not "relaxing."

[Dawn OOC]

The way I've always seen (and always run and always agreed upon because it grants a great deal of balance to the game) is that when you are using an active quantum power, such as QI (and you are using it actively when maintaining it), you are not regaining quantum. To me, "at ease" was reading a book, checking email, watching TV or stuff like that - you're seated, not really chilling out but still not doing much activity. Maintaining a power is an active action that is not "chilling" or at ease. I believe that this is what the developers intended (even if they didn't say it, thanks White Wolf). It's to keep the silliness that you describe above from happening.

I'm not sure if you're a player or an ST, but since you're talking about 'getting someone to drop it', I assume ST. Frankly, intrepret the rules however you please. If you want "at ease" to mean that someone can gain quantum while maintaining a power, then they do. If you want them to have to stop maintainance to recover quantum and be "at ease", then rule it that way. You're the ST, and what you say goes. If the player doesn't like it, he can either cope with it or leave the game. You are the boss.

As for what costs and what doesn't, I'd apply the KISS principle and just say that anything that requires you to have a node to use it is what costs. So Megas, powers, enhancements. Easy enough.

[Dave ST]

I'm not seeing that in the rules. Could you clarify where it is? It's not clear that using quantum for maintenance means that a nova is not "at ease but not completely relaxing." (pg. 146). Maintenance doesn't require a Nova to concentrate. (pg. 179)

It's commonly accepted rule that while you're using powers, your pool doesn't regenerate. You can run the game in any manner you wish however.

From... page 160 of the rules? 1 dot of Mega-Stamina = "You can go for weeks without sleep." No mention of enhancements. I don't think everyone else can go weeks without sleep! I suppose it's not literally "never," but it's good enough. And presumably it just gets better from one dot. If one dot is weeks, what is five dots?

Ahh, the typical response, like this is an original argument. You're right, the book does say that, and it also says that at Mega-Stamina 5 you can bounce missiles off your chest. I assure you, the character using just their Mega-Stamina can not bounce a missile off their chest. This is the part where you, as the ST, must exercise some common sense and decide just how literal you want to perceive the rules in the book. I assure you, what the book says, and what the dice pools will yield will be two very distinct things.

Well, yes, but that's 100 rounds of combat. Do you have many battles go that long?

You're thinking solely in a combat perspective. While 100 rounds in only ten minutes, the Quantum Imprinter still has to pay his maintenance cost (assuming the 5+5 scenario) every 10 rounds, or 1 minute. That's 3 Quantum points/minute plus the upkeep on any maintained powers he's stolen, plus the increased cost of any powers he's activated. The "keeping powers" indefinitely thing will solve itself in less than an hour of game time, assuming the Nova has a 30 Quantum Pool, even if it's higher, the diminished returns on regained quantum every hour will see to it that he loses the abilities soon enough.

One question: do powers with no cost, cost 1 for Quantum Imprinters?

Yes.

Everything has a +1 point surcharge if the power possesses an activation cost. Claws would (activation cost) but invulnerability would not (it's always active, regardless), for example. This also counts for powers that have Reduced Quantum Cost on them to reduce the cost to 0. In the previous example, if you took Claws from someone and they have it costing 0 due to Reduced Quantum Cost, you enjoy that benefit also (since the power no longer has an activation cost). The surcharge applies to enhancements as well, so if you QI Quickness you pay the surcharge, if you QI Lifting you pay the surcharge, if you QI Accuracy, you pay the surcharge. I think you get the idea.

Quantum Imprint can get expensive, which is why the TT character that I had who possessed the power had a Quantum Pool over 150. And even then, yes, he had to give up the stolen power eventually, until he acquired the Longevity Extra for QI. Longevity increases the duration to [Quantum+Power Rating] days, but removes the Maintenance duration (so after the duration, you automatically lose the abilities you've stolen)

Also keep in mind that Reduced Quantum Cost on Quantum Imprint does affect the cost of stolen powers, but it does not stack with any powers you steal that already have Reduced Quantum Cost applied to them.

[Gislef]

"Ahh, the typical response, like this is an original argument. "

It's not an argument, it's an answer to the question posed about why people think that Novas with mega-stamina can go without sleep. You don't think readers can come away with the conclusion that Novas with MSta can go for weeks without sleep based on that statement in the rules?

If it's a typical response, then it's probably a typical understanding.

The surcharge applies to enhancements as well

Can you QI enhancements? They don't seem to be "Attributes, skills, abilities or powers". (And isn't "skills, abilities" redundant? ). We understand that anything that refers to Attributes typically refers to Mega-Attributes, but we didn't think it included enhancements as well.

Everything has a +1 point surcharge if the power possesses an activation cost.

Right, that was understood. We were asking about powers that have no cost. Armor, Body Modification, and Intuition, for instance. And Abilities. And Attributes. And straight-out Mega-Attributes.

We mentioned the Hulk above. We weren't even thinking of enhancements like Leaping and Thunderclap. But a 5-dot QIer grabbing his Strength, Mega-Strength, Mega-Stamina, Brawl, and Armor is going to be pretty potent. As noted, the QIer can go a hundred rounds of combat like that with no extra Quantum payments beyond QI itself. That's why we wondered if there was some cost on the non-cost stuff, or a way to make him drop the Quantum Imprint.

[Gislef]

You're the ST, and what you say goes. If the player doesn't like it, he can either cope with it or leave the game. You are the boss.

We're a cooperative/rotating roles group, so there is no one boss/ST.

As for what costs and what doesn't, I'd apply the KISS principle and just say that anything that requires you to have a node to use it is what costs. So Megas, powers, enhancements. Easy enough.

That's what we thought, except for the one issue of powers and base Megas that have no cost.

[Dawn OOC]

What I was saying with the KISS statement was that IF it requires a node to work, it should cost. What that cost is would be up to an ST or in this case, group concensus. So an Enhancement might cost 1 quantum, while armor might cost 2. Up to you guys.

I'm not sure I'm reading this right, but one of your players seems to be using the ambiguity around the term "at ease" to allow himself to have enough quantum to keep up QI for hours, days, etc at a time. Is that accurate?

[Krul]

Sorry, but if your playing in a game with no clear ST... then Abberant's uncertainty's are going to create all kinds of problems.. generally you need a ST to firm up and deal with any game situation where rules are ambiguous, and Abberant is filled with ambiguities.

On a different note, if you really think M.Stamina One allows you stay awake for weeks.. do the endurance rolls, you will find that your going to fall on your face sooner then that, unless your very lucky.

[Gislef]

Just a note. The reason we assumed that QI doesn't duplicate Enhancements (besides the fact that it doesn't mention Enhancements as something that can be copied) is... well, QI works on a dot/level basis. Enhancements don't have dots. Unless you know what dot/level each enhancement is, it's impossible to tell how many dots in QI you need to duplicate an enhancement. Unless you assume all Enhancemens are one dot. Which we weren't comfortable with. Just because you get one with a dot in a Mega Attribute doesn't mean it's one dot itself.

"I'm not sure I'm reading this right, but one of your players seems to be using the ambiguity around the term "at ease" to allow himself to have enough quantum to keep up QI for hours, days, etc at a time. Is that accurate?"

As a group, combining STs and players, we have noted some ambiguity. No one yet is trying to "allow" themselves anything. The "at ease" issue is one thing, yes.

"On a different note, if you really think M.Stamina One allows you stay awake for weeks.. do the endurance rolls,"

Again, the question wasn't whether you can do it or not, or what I think of it. The question asked is why people think that, right or wrong.

Sorry, but if your playing in a game with no clear ST... then Abberant's uncertainty's are going to create all kinds of problems.

We've dealt with dozens of them so far, in Aberrant, and also in Storyteller, and in plenty of other RPGs with uncertainties. This one was a bit more contentious, and had a couple of different issues involved, but obviously we'll settle it. In this case, wanted to see how the Aberrant community at large might have handled it, or had handled it in their own experience.

[Dave ST]

Can you QI enhancements? They don't seem to be "Attributes, skills, abilities or powers". (And isn't "skills, abilities" redundant? ). We understand that anything that refers to Attributes typically refers to Mega-Attributes, but we didn't think it included enhancements as well.

When an Enhancement is purchased it becomes a part of that Mega-Attribute. It's as natural as the attribute itself. So when you steal a Mega-Attribute, you automatically take all the enhancements attached to it the victim possesses. So, if you QIed the Hulk's Mega-Strength, you would automatically have all his Strength-Enhancements as well. If you QIed Wolverine's Mega-Stamina you'd automatically have all his Stamina Enhancements (but be paying twice as much to regenerate health).

Some STs may permit individual enhancements to be stolen (I do, there's no real harm in it), if the thief wants just one particular enhancement. It's up to you. Remember though, that you have to have at least one dot in a Mega-Attribute in order to steal an enhancement for said attribute. I was reminded of this once when I tried to swipe Engineering Prodigy from a Nova, but I didn't have any dots in Mega-Intelligence... so I just took every dot of Mega-Intelligence and all his Enhancements instead, it worked out.

Again, the question wasn't whether you can do it or not, or what I think of it. The question asked is why people think that, right or wrong.

It's a common argument, yes. I'm not trying to sound insulting, but people tend to read, then forget how to do the actual math. When you read something in Aberrant, please, take the time to do the actual math involved. Krul is right, do the rolls and try to get your PC to stay up for weeks and see how it works out for you.

Think. Or Aberrant will have you drinking the Kool-Aid.