Aberrant: Infinite Earth - Gadgets Feedback thread

[Kazuo]

So first off I’m going to (re)establish some terms to help keep things clear, since there still seems to be a lot of confusion as to what sorts of high-tech gadgetry are available to PCs in the Aeonverse setting. I wish more folks had access to the rules in Adventure! since it is – by far and away – the best resource on any of this stuff within the Aeonverse.

Terms to use:

Gadget: is a background, is purchased as a background, is treated as a background. Lets you buy Advancements. Just as your character might need to meet a ‘contact’ in an espionage-style game, while also having an actual rating in the ‘Contacts’ background, you can have/use/build ‘gadgets’ in-game (if that’s what you want to call ‘em ICly), while having some other, completely different rating in the ‘Gadget’ background itself.

Advancement: is something that ‘advances’ normal technology. It will typically be one to two generations ahead of the current technological curve. In the A! system – which I recommend we use here – baselines can design and build advanced technology, so long as they possess Ability Mastery in the relevant Ability. Novas can build such items if they have even a single dot in Mega-Intelligence.

Innovation: is something that flat-out breaks – or goes so far beyond that it at least badly stretches – the laws of nature as we currently understand them. An innovation can take the form of anything from a super-science blaster pistol that works like a quantum bolt does, to a literal ‘mirror on the wall’ with a talking head floating inside it that tells you the future if you ask it questions in rhyming verse. Innovations work because the nova who created them believes they will work. This is an important distinction to keep in mind since it does (not ‘should’, does) separate them about as fundamentally as is possible from regular technology as well as from advanced technology.

Device: this is the new term that folks have started using and which I will as well, which denotes an ‘innovative Gadget’. Like the Gadget background, a Device is a ‘container’ (to borrow Kamiko’s term) for any combination of ‘gadget-contained’ powers – or power-and-advancement combinations – that the character wants to use. As with the word ‘gadget’ it’s important to notice that your PC can have/build/use a ‘device’ in-game and this could be an IC descriptor for any of a large number of things, while a ‘Device’ is an OOC title given to a particular, paid-for trait on your PC’s sheet.

Super-Science Inventions: I’m borrowing this term from Adventure! and am putting it forward as a good term to use for OOC discussion and clarity. Super-science is a catch-all term used to denote any invention – whether advanced or innovative – that a nova invents in-game. If the nova winds up paying XP for it, it will become a Gadget or Device, while if they don’t it will remain a potentially unstable invention that, while unique and potentially quite powerful, is ultimately little more than a temporary plot device. ‘Advancements’ essentially are ‘super-science’, as they build on current scientific theory, however ‘innovations’ might appear to work using mystical, spiritual, or even outright magical principles. Even so, for OOC clarification we use the same term, ‘super-science’, to denote them. (In-game you can use whatever terminology you please.)

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Ok, now that’s out of the way, I’ll put forward my thoughts for Gadgets, Devices, and Super-Science Inventions.

Gadget: Should work as Dave’s proposed background. 4 Option Points or Build Points (OPs or BPs, your choice – I like ‘OPs’ better) per dot in the Background. Different sorts of items, vehicles, or other equipment have inherent limitations on how many options they can hold.

Weapons: Can hold up to 6 Options

· +1 accuracy (2OP; max +3)

· +1 damage (2OP; max +3)

· +[1] damage (3OP; max +3)

· -1 Str-Min (1OP)

· +1 Str-Max (1OP)

· +50% Range (1OP; suggested max +200%)

· Extra Maneuver (1OP/Maneuver – RoF is technically a Maneuver, so not sure why that was listed separately before…)

· +50% ammunition capacity (1OP; max +100%)

· -1 Conceal raiting (1OP; J to P, etc; no smaller than P)

· Change damage type (3OP; bashing to lethal, lethal to bashing)

Armor: Can hold up to 6 Options

· +1 Bashing soak (2OP)

· +1 Lethal (2OP)

· -1 Penalty (2OP)

· +1 Destruction (2OP)

Vehicles: Total options possible depends on the size of the vehicle. One- or two-passenger vehicles can have up to 10 options; up to 12-passenger vehicles can have up to 20; anything larger can have up to 30.

· +1 passenger (1OP; no idea why there should be a limit on this, so I recommend none other than what common-sense dictates)

· +25% cargo capacity (1OP, common-sense limit)

· +50% speed (1OP; safe and max; up to 4 levels)

· +1 maneuver (1OP; up to 5 levels)

· +1[2] armor (2OP; up to 3 levels)

· Conceal any armor (2OP)

· Personal-scale weapons mount (1OP; e.g., machine gun)

· Vehicle-scale weapons mount (2OP; e.g., 20mm cannon)

· Conceal existing personal-scale weapon mounts (1OP)

· Conceal existing vehicle-scale weapon mounts (2OP)

· Heavy industrial equipment (2OP; e.g., mining drill, crane)

· Living Quarters (2OP; barracks, 4 occupants)

· Living Quarters (2OP; Luxury, 1 occupant)

· Mobile Laboratory (3OP)

· Support facilities for a smaller vehicle (3OP; e.g., airplane hangar in a zeppelin)

· Improved fuel efficiency (2OP; x2 current; up to 5 levels)

· Extra movement mode (3OP; e.g., flying car)

Medical or Chemical (see below): Medical options shouldn’t really work with nova physiology in general, and Chemical options aren’t generally recommended (but it’s possible someone might come up with a good one, I suppose). The following couple of Chemical Options might be suitable for use independently, or with weapons or vehicles:

· Silk-steel (4OP; clothes with [2B/4L, 0 encumbrance] armor protection): 30 days R&D

· Advanced alloys (2OP; reduces weight by half; up to 2 levels)

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Device: Would be any Power, Body-Modification, Mega-Attribute, and/or Enhancement contained within a ‘container’ of some kind (anything from a slip of paper, to a vehicle, to a weapon, to a suit of armor, and more besides). I’ll reiterate again that a Device, even more so than a Gadget, should be an intrinsic part of your PC. In CN terms, if it isn’t “in-theme”, then why does your character have it? (This isn’t to say that a character can’t have an “out of theme” Device, but there should be a very good explanation for why they do).

Devices should be handled by purchasing the Power, Body Modification, Mega-Attribute, and/or Enhancement at half cost. That’s it. Never mind what its Q-rating is, never mind what its Q-pool is, never mind how you figure out what dice pool to use. It’s a power. You purchase it at half cost.

That’s.

It.

(Seriously, I’m sort of mind-boggled at the apparent desire to complicate this process unnecessarily. Make it a half-cost power that the character can temporarily have stolen or lose, and that can be used against them, and have done with it.)

Extras: For those who just have to make this process more complicated.

· In the Hands of Mortals: this allows the Device to store an independent Quantum Pool of up to (20 + [minimum Q-rating required by the power] x 2) and allows the Device to be used by anyone, Inspired or not. These points must be "fed" into the Device by a nova and they do not recharge naturally.

· Immunity: while the Device can still be stolen its effects cannot be used against you unless you choose to allow them to be.

· To Me, To Me!: this extra allows you to summon your Device from just about anywhere. This doesn’t make it any harder to steal it from you (though you can always summon it back once you realize it’s been stolen), but it does make it almost impossible to lose - at least permanently.

Options: Spend 1NP for 4OP, or 1XP per 2OP. Then spend 'em as you would on a Gadget.

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Creation of Super-Science Inventions:

To make super-science devices a character must have Ability Mastery in Engineering (for inventing technology, weapons, advanced buildings or vehicles, etc.), in Medicine (for inventing advanced organisms, medical treatments, and the like), or in Science (for creating chemical compounds, etc). The character must also have three or more dots in the Ability most appropriate to the proposed creation (i.e. you need some skill in the Computer Ability if you want your PC to invent some crazy-powerful Super-science computer virus, while creating a hyper-advanced super-science pistol would be based on Firearms, an orbital craft needs Pilot, and so on).

Novas with one or more dots in Mega-Intelligence do not need Ability Mastery at all, and need only a single dot in any other relevant Abilities for their proposed creations rather than three.

Step One: Research and Development:

This can potentially be a very long and arduous process, but is normally handled as ‘downtime’ – though the player can certainly include ‘in-game’ if desired. Regardless, once you know what it is you intend to research and develop, you must still determine how long the process will take, and whether your character is ultimately successful in her efforts. The R&D roll, which is based on the primary Ability involved (Engineering, Medicine, or Science), determines both of these factors in one go. Each design option for your prospective advancement or innovation has some minimum amount of R&D time associated with it (listed below), and any extra successes on your character’s R&D roll help to reduce this time, at the rate of 1 day per extra success (to a minimum of 1 day – though see below for certain exceptions to this timeframe).

This assumes that the inventor is devoting approximately 5-10 hours in a given day to the initial R&D time. In this way, they should still have time to engage in other activities “outside of work”, allowing them to continue to be involved in what’s going on around them (to an extent anyway). Those who wish to can “lock themselves in the lab”, as it were, spending every available waking moment working on their project. In this case they may reduce the total R&D time by 1 day per 3 days that they work like this. Novas with Adaptability, or other enhancements that reduce or negate the need for things like sleep or sustenance, as well as novas with the Mega-Intelligence enhancement Total Concentration, can reduce the total R&D time by 2 days per 3 that they were work non-stop.

By the same token, if the inventor’s work is interrupted for an appreciable time (say they run out of materials or are forced to/choose to leave the lab to go on an adventure/take a vacation, etc), the countdown pauses until he can resume his work.

· Research Assistants: If your character has access to research assistants they gain benefits in the following fashion:

. +1 bonus dice per assistant that has 3 or more dots in the appropriate Ability

. +1 bonus dice per assistant that has 3 or more dots in any related Abilities

. +1 bonus dice per Inspired assistant (psiad or nova)

. +2 bonus dice per assistant with Mega-Intelligence

. +1 bonus dice per assistant with the relevant Mental Prodigy enhancement

. These benefits are cumulative

. Inventors can gain these benefits from a maximum of one Inspired assistant, plus a number of un-Inspired assistants equal to the sum of his Intelligence and Charisma.

· Enhancements: Certain enhancements can provide substantial advantages during the R&D phase of invention:

. The Mega-Intelligence enhancements Inventive Genius as well as any relevant Mental Prodigy enhancements add their bonus dice to the R&D creation roll. These are cumulative.

. The Mega-Wits enhancement Hypercognition allows a nova inventor to reduce all R&D times by half.

. The Mega-Wits enhancement Synergy can add bonus dice when working with assistants, up to a maximum equal to the number bonus dice the assistants are already providing.

Step Two: Construction:

Once the research stage is complete the character must actually build his or her invention. This requires four things:

· Time

· Funding

· Facilities

· A copy of the completed plans for the invention. (This is important because it means the design cannot be built if the plans are stolen.)

Construction times are not as rigidly enforced as R&D times and should in general simply reflect the size and complexity of the invention being built, as well as the overall amount of ‘super-science’ that was put into it. Converting a handgun to fire explosive rounds should require less time and work than building a wristwatch that lets you teleport from place to place.

However, the following table is provided as a guideline for total construction times as a function of total time spent on successful R&D:

· 1-5 days R&D = 4 hours construction time

· 6-10 days R&D = 8 hours construction

· 11-15 days R&D = 12 hours

· 16-20 days R&D = 1 day

· 21-30 days R&D = 2 day

· 31-60 days R&D = 2 weeks

· 61-120 days R&D = 1 month

· 121-180 days R&D = 2-3 months

· 181-270 days R&D = 3-6 months

· 270+ days R&D = 6-18 months

Enhancements: The Mega-Dexterity enhancement Fast Tasks can reduce all construction times by up to one half, where appropriate (extremely large inventions requiring entire teams to properly build will not have their construction times reduced appreciably just because one of them happens to be able to move at super-human speeds).

Particularly advanced or intricate super-science inventions are apt to require quite a lot of funding and/or resources and it is highly suggested that this be a factor in the creation of any significant invention. However, getting this funding or acquiring the necessary resources should be an occasional plot point, not a constant inconvenience. As a general rule of thumb, the higher the character’s rating in Resources, the less of an issue funding should be. In many cases Backing might provide similar benefits.

Additionally, most construction above the level of personal equipment is going to require a full-blown facility of some sort. This is (to quote Adventure!) a common-sense ruling. Assume that vehicular construction requires a facility at least three times as large as the vehicle itself. Chemical super-science requires a functional lab, and medical super-science requires a full surgical theatre.

Advanced Super-Science:

Advancements are direct linear developments of an existing concept. They do not break known laws of physics, though they do usually represent a large leap forward ahead of the current state of the art. This is why Advancements are handled by adding Options to existing technologies.

Prerequisites:

· The character must have either Ability Mastery in Engineering, Medicine, or Science, as required, or they must have at least one dot in Mega-Intelligence.

Below will be outlined the various Options available for the different types of Advancements, along with the R&D time in days that each requires. Unless specified, each Advancement Option can only be applied once. R&D times listed are cumulative with each other, as are multiple levels of the same option. Additionally, adding extra levels of the same option (for those that allow it) adds +1 to the difficult of the initial R&D creation roll. Note that adding multiple different options does not add to the base difficulty (unless specifically stated otherwise) – it just increases the R&D time.

The options listed below are not meant to be all-inclusive, comprehensive, or definitive.

Weapons (Personal, Stationary, or Vehicular): In general, weapons can include no more than 6 options total:

· +1 accuracy (up to 3 levels): 3 days R&D

· +1 damage (up to 3 levels): 7 days R&D

· +50% ammunition capacity (up to 2 levels): 3 days R&D

· +50% range (up to 4 levels): 5 days R&D

· -1 Conceal rating (J to P, etc; no smaller than P): 10 days R&D

· Disguise true appearance (sword-cane, etc): 7 days R&D

· Change damage type (bashing to lethal, lethal to bashing): 15 days R&D

Vehicles: Total options possible depends on the size of the vehicle. One- or two-passenger vehicles can have up to 10 options; up to 12-passenger vehicles can have up to 20; anything larger can have up to 30.

· +1 passenger: 1 day R&D*

· +25% cargo capacity: 2 days R&D*

· +25% speed (safe and max; up to 8 levels): 10 days R&D

· +1 maneuver (up to 5 levels): 10 days R&D

· +1[2] armor (up to 3 levels): 15 days R&D

· Conceal any armor: 10 days R&D

· Personal-scale weapons mount (e.g., machine gun): 1 day R&D*

· Vehicle-scale weapons mount (e.g., 20mm cannon): 5 days R&D*

· Conceal existing personal-scale weapon mounts: 1 day R&D

· Conceal existing vehicle-scale weapon mounts: 5 days R&D

· Heavy industrial equipment (e.g., mining drill, crane): 10 days R&D

· Living Quarters (barracks, 4 occupants): 2 days R&D*

· Living Quarters (Luxury, 1 occupant): 3 days R&D*

· Mobile Laboratory: 20 days R&D*

· Support facilities for a smaller vehicle (e.g., airplane hangar in a zeppelin): 20 days R&D*

· Improved fuel efficiency (x2 current; up to 5 levels): 10 days R&D

· Extra movement mode (e.g., flying car): 50 days R&D

Options marked with a ‘*’ is not an increasing refinement on a basic design and therefore does not add to the R&D roll difficulty. Further, the actual maximum level is somewhat dependant on the size of the vehicle, and therefore common-sense must be applied.

Medical Experimentation: This is super-surgery that is years or perhaps even decades ahead of its time. Each super-surgery is unique, and therefore requires its own R&D creation roll. Super-surgeries are different from most inventions, and usually only take hours where other inventions take days. The process reduces the subject to Crippled health, and they must recover from this naturally (barring use of nova powers or other super-science items). A botched R&D roll for a super-surgery tends to result in fatalities or other equally nasty outcomes. Additionally, many super-surgeries will have noticeable side-effects – regardless of how successful they are. Armor may reduce the subjects movement rates, tails make finding comfortable seating difficult, and any alteration that makes the subject obviously more than human can (and probably will) hamper social interactions.

No organism can hold more than 10 medical Advancement options. For what should be obvious reasons, novas are ineligible for any medical Advancement options:

· Muscle implantation (+1 Str; up to 3 levels): 20 days R&D

· Nerve tweaking (+1 Dex; up to 2 levels): 40 days R&D

· Structural reinforcement (+1 Sta; up to 3 levels): 20 days R&D

· Sensory enhancement (+1 Per; up to 3 levels): 15 days R&D

· Brain augmentation (+1 Int; up to 2 levels): 90 days R&D

· Brain augmentation (+1 Wit; up to 2 levels): 90 days R&D

· Plastic surgery (new face, same App): 5 days R&D

· Pheromone implants (+1 Man; up to 2 levels): 60 days R&D

· Lobotomatic behavioral modification (+1 Cha; up to 2 levels): 75 days R&D

· Dermal thickening ([2B/0L] armor): 20 days R&D

· Subdermal chitin implants ([1/3] armor): 60 days R&D

· Exoskeletal transplantation ([2/4] armor): 120 days R&D

· Minor animal transplants (surface, minimal connections – e.g., whiskers): 60 days R&D

· Intermediate animal transplants (surface, extensive – e.g., tail): 120 days R&D

· Major animal transplants (internal, extensive – e.g., claws): 240 days R&D

Chemistry: Not necessarily pharmaceutical. These could be compounds in the form of materials and/or clothing/gear. It is possible to mass-produce these compounds, requiring only the extra resources necessary. No matter how successful the initial roll, it’s worth mentioning that things like drugs tend to have side-effects – often very unpleasant ones.

Compounds may not include more than 3 options:

· Attribute enhancement (+1 for one scene; up to 3 levels): 5 days R&D

· Reflex enhancement (+2 Initiative for one scene; up to 3 levels): 10 days R&D

· Mind control drugs (reduce victim’s Willpower by 3 points): 25 days R&D

· Silk-steel (clothes with [2B/4L, 0 encumbrance] armor protection): 30 days R&D

· Super-fuel (10x fuel efficiency, +25% speed; up to 2 levels): 40 days R&D

· Concentrated explosives (+25% damage dice; up to 2 levels): 60 days R&D

· Advanced alloys (reduces weight by half; up to 2 levels): 60 days R&D

· Healing enhancement drugs (heal lethal damage at bashing speeds): 60 days R&D

· Anti-aging drugs (age one year per decade): 270 days R&D

Optional Warranty: Advanced super-science inventions will normally last indefinitely, however it is possible to build “fast and dirty” or even “one-off” advancements that take far less time to complete, but that are far more prone to breaking down.

· The Standard Option: The invention, once successfully completed, is no more prone to breaking down than anything else of similar design.

· The “Fast and Dirty” Option: Once the advancement is constructed, roll the primary Ability involved in the invention process (Engineering, Medicine, or Science). The successes rolled indicate the number of months the invention functions reliably. After this time has passed the innovation has about 1 week of unreliable functionality left, and at some point during that time it will fail (preferably at a dramatically appropriate moment). The tradeoff for this is that all R&D and Construction times are reduced from days to hours. This option is not available for Chemical Advancements, and using it for Medical Advancement will likely result in your character being hunted down and arrested or killed.

· The “One-Off” Option: If the nova inventor wishes, they can further reduce the Warranty time on their advancement from months to days, in which case all R&D and Construction times are reduced from hours to Rounds. Again, this option is not available for Chemical Advancement, using it with Medical Advancements will probably wind up getting your character shot, and using it with Vehicular Advancements is only slightly less intelligent.

· Using either of the last two options precludes any ability to rebuild or repair the invention after its ‘warranty’ is up. If it is damaged or breaks down and needs repairing before this time is up, it can be fixed normally.

· Using either of the last two options also precludes the ability to "lock oneself in the lab" and further reduce R&D time in this way.

Innovative Super-Science:

This is the stuff that goes beyond what Science tells us is even possible. It might look like science-fiction, it might look like fantasy, it might look mystical. Whatever the case, innovative super-science is only possible when created by a nova.

Prerequisites:

· The character must be a nova.

· They must have at least one dot in Mega-Intelligence.

· They must have at least one dot in all relevant Abilities to the proposed innovation.

· Creating L2 Powers with Extras, or L3+ Powers at all requires the character to have either Mega-Intelligence at 3+ dots, or to have the appropriate Mental Prodigy Enhancement.

Quantum: This is the innovation’s effective Quantum rating.

· The innovation must meet the minimum Quantum rating requirements for any Power or Mega-Attribute it is intended to emulate.

· Nova inventors can create innovations with Quantum ratings up to half their Quantum rating (rounded up) normally and at no additional cost to R&D time.

· This can be increased at a cost of +2 difficulty on the creation roll per dot of Quantum, up to the inventor’s own Quantum rating.

· For an additional +4 difficulty this can be further increased to a Quantum rating 1 higher than their own.

· A Quantum rating of 1 – 3 takes 10 days of R&D per dot.

· Quantum ratings of 4 and 5 take 20 days of R&D per dot.

· A 6^th dot of Quantum takes 60 days of R&D time.

· Innovations with Q-ratings over 6 should probably be left alone for now, and treated as Plot Devices later on down the road once they’re allowed (if they’re allowed).

Quantum Pool: This is the maximum amount of stored quantum energy the innovation can hold. Once this is depleted the device can only be operated by “feeding” it some of the character’s own quantum points. Note that this is a required feature for any innovation that is intended for possible use by baselines or psiads.

· Innovations do not start with any inherent Quantum Pool to start.

· Adding up to (20 + Quantum Rating x 2) adds 1 day of R&D per (Quantum Rating) QP.

· Add +1 difficulty and 1 day of R&D per (Quantum Rating) QP added beyond this.

· These quantum points will recharge naturally at the rate of 2 per hour, and nova operators can also “feed” the innovation some of their own QPs to speed this process up.

Effect: This is the Power, Mega-Attribute, Enhancement, or Body Modification that your innovation is meant to duplicate (and for game balancing purposes, let us here declare that such inventions cannot duplicate the effects of Enhancements like Inventive Genius or any of the Mental Prodigies).

· Mega-Attributes are treated as L2 powers for determining R&D costs.

· Body Modifications are treated as L1 powers.

· Enhancements are generally treated as L1 powers.

· For Enhancements with more than one level, treat each level as a dot of power.

· For Enhancements that require a minimum of Quantum 6, treat each as an L4 power.

For Quantum Traits the Nova Inventor Already Possesses:

· L1 Powers take 1 day of R&D per dot of intended effect.

· L2 Powers take 2 days of R&D per dot of intended effect.

· L3 Powers take 3 days of R&D per dot of intended effect.

· L4 Powers take 6 days of R&D per dot of intended effect and add +2 difficulty to the roll for the first dot and +2 difficulty per dot thereafter.

· L5 Powers, like Q-ratings of 6+, are Plot Devices and probably should not be allowed for player characters for some time to come.

For Quantum Traits the Nova Inventor Does Not Possess:

· L1 Powers take 3 days of R&D per dot of intended effect and add a flat +1 difficulty to the creation roll (i.e. not +1 per dot).

· L2 Powers take 6 days of R&D per dot of intended effect and add a flat +2 difficulty to the creation roll.

· L3 Powers take 9 days of R&D per dot of intended effect and add a flat +3 difficulty to the creation roll.

· L4 Powers take 18 days of R&D per dot of intended effect and add a flat +4 difficulty to the creation roll.

· L5 Powers are still Plot Devices.

· If the nova inventor has access to someone who can demonstrate use of the intended Power in a ‘laboratory setting’ during the design process, then subtract 1 day per dot of intended effect from the R&D time.

Dice Pool: Use this pool when rolling to use the invention’s effect.

· Your character’s inventions begin with a base dice pool equal to half of what it would be if the Power was the character’s own (rounded down, minimum of one die).

· Each additional die up to what would be the character’s equivalent dice pool adds three days to the R&D time.

· Characters may increase regular dice (i.e. not Mega-dice) up to one-and-a-half times the character’s equivalent dice pool (rounded up), adding nine more days to R&D time and a +1 difficulty to the creation roll.

· In the case of innovations granting use of Mega-Attributes (which simply stack atop one of your PC’s base Attributes), you would initially be able to use one half of your character’s base Attribute in conjunction with it, and could add dice up to your character’s maximum base Attribute rating as listed above – characters may not increase this up to one-and-a-half times their base Attribute.

Secondary Function: This covers any Advanced options the character would like to include in their innovation’s design.

· Choose Advancements options from the list above and apply their listed R&D times and difficulty modifiers.

· Innovations can generally have up to 10 Advanced options added, or the amount listed per item type, whichever is less.

· These secondary functions do not themselves require Quantum to operate.

Usability: Any innovation is automatically usable by its inventor.

· Adding +1 difficulty to the creation roll makes it usable by any other Inspired character of their type (novas, typically).

· For +2 difficulty, the innovation is usable by any Inspired character (so psiads could use it as well as novas).

· For +4 difficulty anyone at all can use the innovation, though it must still have a stored Quantum pool in it for baselines to use it.

· These difficulty ratings are not cumulative.

Durability: Innovations start with a soak rating and health or structural levels equal to one less than those of its least durable part (see Material Strengths, pg. 257 of Aberrant for examples). This can be increased at the cost of +1 to the difficulty of the creation roll for each level of soak or each level of health/structural level added, up to twice its base rating.

Warranty: Innovations all have a base life expectancy, after which point they grow increasingly unreliable (note that this has much more to do with the memes surrounding super-science in fiction than with any attempt at being ‘realistic’).

· The Standard Option: Once the innovation is constructed, roll the primary Ability involved in the invention process (Engineering, Medicine, or Science). The successes rolled indicate the number of months the invention functions reliably. After this time has passed the innovation has about 1 week of unreliable functionality left, and at some point during that time it will fail (preferably at a dramatically appropriate moment).

· The “Fast & Dirty” Option: If the nova inventor wishes, they can reduce the Warranty time on their innovation from months to days, in which case all R&D and Construction times are reduced from days to hours.

· The “One-Off” Option: The nova inventor can further reduce the Warranty time from months or days to “number of uses”, in which case all R&D and Construction times are further reduced from hours to Rounds. Note that in the case of this last option, the device’s inherent Q-Pool (if any) cannot provide more uses than the “number of uses” provided by the Warranty roll.

· Using either of the last two options also precludes the ability to "lock oneself in the lab" and further reduce R&D time in this way.

Rebuilding: Inventors can rebuild any innovation built using the “Standard” or “Fast & Dirty” Options.

· A complete rebuild takes roughly one-tenth the time it took to construct the invention originally and requires the player to make a new R&D creation roll.

· This involves a complete disassembly, cleaning and/or replacement of every part involved, after which they make another Ability roll, which starts is Warranty afresh (either in months or in days, depending on the option used to build it).

· Innovations cannot be Rebuilt more than once.

Examples:

Example 1: GunnBunny is, as her nova-name implies, a bit of a gun fanatic. She decides to tweak her favorite assault rifle to provide it with a little more accuracy and damage (+2 to each). She isn’t one of the Big Brains of the CN world, but she does have Intelligence 4, Mega-Intelligence 1, and Engineering 3.

Adding +2 to both accuracy and damage equals out 20 days of R&D before any modifiers, and to a +2 difficulty on the initial R&D roll itself. GunnBunny makes her roll and gets 4 successes. This is 1 over the minimum for success, reducing her total R&D time by 1 day.

GunnBunny gets to work on her Advancements. During the week she puts in only the minimum amount of time necessary to plan and prepare for the actual modifications, since she does have an actual job to worry about during the day. But during the weekends she really gets down to business and “locks herself into the lab”, so to speak. Friday afternoon through Monday morning is close enough that we’ll call it 3 days “locked in the lab” for each weekend. Since she also has some dots in Mega-Stamina and the Adaptability enhancement, GunnBunny subtracts a total of 4 days from the total R&D time of 19 days, for a remainder of 15 days, or just over two weeks.

Once all of this planning, acquiring of necessary supplies and equipment, and other preparations are complete, GunnBunny can begin work on the actual construction of the device. Given the relatively low-key level advancement involved, the “guideline” timeframe of 1 day for construction can be reasonably hand-waved down to a handful of hours.

At the end of this time GunnBunny finds herself with a tricked-out assault rifle that provides a total of +4 accuracy and does a base of 10d10L damage, and this is before she adds anything else such as a scope or specialized ammo. This rifle has no “warranty” or “shelf life” and should remain functional indefinitely, provided that its owner takes good care of it.

Example 2: Professor Potts is in need of an offensive weapon of some kind, and he needs it STAT!! He decides build a blaster pistol that works like a Quantum Bolt. He has Quantum 5, Intelligence 5, Mega-Intelligence 5, the enhancement Mental Prodigy: Engineering, as well as Engineering 5. Also relevant, he has Dexterity 5, no Mega-Dexterity, and Firearms 3.

The Professor decides to build his Blaster Pistol with a Quantum of 3 (1/2 of his own Quantum rating, rounded up, and which is the max he can take for ‘free’), a dot rating of 4, and he wants to boost its dice pool so that it is equal to his own Firearms dice pool of 8 dice (it starts with 4 dice). This equals out to a difficulty penalty of +2 and a total R&D time of 36 days to start. However, since the Professor wants his pistol ASAP he opts for the “One-Off” option, which reduces the R&D time to 36 Rounds to start.

Since he has Mental Prodigy: Engineering, the Professor makes good use of it and roll his Intelligence, getting a whopping 10 successes! He adds this to his Engineering dice pool for a total of 20 regular dice and 5 mega-dice. He makes his R&D roll and achieves 15 successes. Since this is 13 over the minimum number of successes needed, this reduces the R&D time by 13 days (rounds, in this case), for a final total of 23 rounds (or about 1 minute and 6 seconds, give or take a few seconds).

Following the R&D time, during which he most likely grabs at anything even vaguely super-sciency-looking in his immediate vicinity, and scribbles hastily drawn-up plans on a scrap of paper, the Professor can begun construction. The guidelines give us a rough time of 2 days for an R&D time between 21-30 days, which is here reduced to 2 rounds, for a final total of 25 rounds from initial concept to completed product.

Finally, the Professor makes his Warranty roll, for which he has 10 regular dice and 5 mega-dice, and he garners 7 successes. This would normally equal out to a “warranty” of seven months – if he had taken the 23 days that this device would normally required to design, along with the 2 days to build – but since he’s using the “One-Off” option this time cut entirely and he instead receives 7 uses from his new, jury-rigged Blaster Pistol. After this 7^th use the Pistol will break down, burn out, or otherwise become utterly unusable.

[z006]

Serioiusly, Kazuo - that's simpler? I can't honestly even follow most of it.

At this point I don't know what to do. There are too many different "this is how we should do it"s running around in the thread.

Cayote is an inventor and will want to have lots of devices/inspired tech/whatever the hell we're calling it eventually.

Vyserian has no powers of his own, only items.

I'd like to see system that is simple to understand and follow and that allows both of us to play our characters without being unduly confined, that fits the idea of having items instead of powers inherent to the nova (with the common sense that items can be taken away and possibly used by others, even against the character that made/manifested the item).

Is this going to be possible? Because after all the back and forth of the past two days I'm just exhausted and ready to throw the towel in on the whole thing, character and game-wise.

[Kazuo]

The system I provided above is simple. Re-read it - carefully this time - and follow the examples.

I whipped up both of those examples in - literally - the time it took me to type them (and to roll some dice).

There is certainly a lot of information there, but that should not be viewed as a bad thing. The actual methods used are extremely simplistic and easy to manage. Work through a couple of examples for yourself and you'll see.

[z006]

It may seem simple to you, but you're the one writing it. It makes my head hurt. I don't want to have to try to decipher it each time I want to make something in the game, especially when other, much more straightforward systems have been proposed.

It also doesn't address my character concept, which is making magic items. Engineering and medical skill requirements make no sense for that, even if he's making a healing spell ring or something. That distinction might be selfish, but I'm looking to see if I can player my character, so I bring it up.

Also, telling me to read it over "carefully this time" is rather insulting. I did read it. I'm not your student or some child to be lectured at.

[Kazuo]

That would be Engineering, with an associated dot in Occult - if you want it to be a magic-related item. My own PC will likely be doing similar things. Basic inventions use Engineering, Medicine, or Science, but Computer, Firearms, Occult, Art - heck, even skills like Performance - could all be brought into play as associated Abilities.

Edit: And the reason that I don't care for the other systems proposed is that I have yet to see one that wasn't extremely susceptible to abuse, or that utterly ignored entire ranges of possibility. When I see one for which neither of these is true then I will gladly denounce my own proposal above in favor of it. Mind you, if everyone votes in favor of one of the other systems that's fine. I'm not trying to issue any ultimatums, I'm just stating my opinion and offering my own alternative. My apologies if I've offended anyone following this thread.

[z006]

Occult isn't a skill, so far as I know. I believe it might be an Academics specialty. Also, why engineering for him? He's making shirts and rings and staves. None of those require any knowledge of Engineering.

[Kazuo]

The Occult Ability was only ever used in ReignofEvil.com that I know of, and the only other place that makes mention of it is the fan-made Aberrant Directory, making it easily the most obscure and easily-forgotten Ability in all of Aberrant canon. Still, it does exist and it is the Ability that makes the most sense for use with 'magic' items.

Engineering because it is the best ability for use in intellectually designing a physical object whose construction will involve some form of blueprinting or other schematics. The idea of having 3 central Abilities (Engineering, Medicine, and Science) is to provide a defined, centralized core of Abilities that eliminates any questions of 'which Ability do I use for this?', as well as what might otherwise have turned into a tendency to simply grab whichever vaguely-related Ability a character might happen to have the highest (and thus most advantageous) rating in and use that.

That's the logic behind that setup, but I'm certainly willing to listen to other suggestions. My primary concern is that the system be comprehensive, not immediately open to abuse, and internally consistent.

[z006]

Next revision after making some examples with my proposal above:

Advanced Tech: Options only, no Inspired Options.

Inspired Tech: Options & Inspired Options.

R&D time: 1 day per NP or 4 xp spent on the device, base. Each dot of Mega-Int reduces the time by one day and appropriate Enhancements reduce the time further by 12 hrs down to a minimum of one day.

Suggested Enhancements -

Prodigies for associated mental skills.

Artistic Genius for Arts as the associated skill.

Fast Tasks.

Multitasking.

Any others people can think of off the top of their heads?

Note

- MacGuyvering: A character may create "on the fly" or one-shot items with an appropriate roll; the number of successes needed is determined by the plot ST or by narrative and takes 5 minutes per success out of combat or 1 round per success in combat. As a suggestion, each success provides 1 BP for the item; in the case of Advanced Tech, a BP may be spent to buy 3 more uses of the device above the base one use and multiple BP can be spent this way. For Inspired Tech, the device will work until it runs out of qp. These items work only briefly as previously described, being cobbled together, but can provide the basis for permanent items later on.

Repairs: 1/10th the time and 1/100th of the original cost of the item per health level of the item repaired.

Upgrades: Same time commitment as R&D; the cost is just for the additional BP.

Mass Production - (this represents the time needed to prep a new tech for mass production)

Advanced Tech: 1 day per BP.

Inspired Tech: 1 week per BP.

Cost Chart

1 NP = 7 BP

4 xp = 5 BP

Options - add $500 to the base worth of an item for each BP spent on Options. Materials cost (base item + $50/BP) for determining Resources availability.

Weapon Options

Accuracy (+1/2BP), Damage (+1B/2BP or +1L/3BP), Strength-Min (-1/1BP), Strength-Max (+1/2BP), Range (+50%/1BP, max x2), Maneuver (+1Mnv/1BP) - It has to make sense for the user or the gadget, Rate of Fire (+1/1BP), Clip (+50%/1BP, max x2), Concealability (-1 step/2BP)

Armor Options

Bashing (+1/2BP), Lethal (+1/2BP), Penalty (-1/2BP), Destruction (+1/1BP)

Vehicle Options

Safe Speed (+50%/1BP), Max Speed (+50%/1BP), Maneuver (+1/1BP), Passangers (+50%/1BP, only once), Armor (+1B/1BP or +1L/2BP)

Inspired Options - add $5,000 to the worth of the item for each BP spent on Inspired Options. Materials cost (base time + $500/BP) for determining Resources availability (this is primarily to reflect finding rare materials that will hold a quantum signature to work into the item).

Purchase costs:

1 BP = +2 QP

2 BP = Level 1 powers, Enhancement

3 BP = Level 2 powers, M-Att

5 BP = Level 3 powers

7 BP = Quantum Rating

Example build:

10 NP = 1 Level 3 power at 5, in-theme (70 BP)

56 xp = 1 Level 3 power at 5, in-theme (70 BP)

70 BP

Quantum: 5 (35 BP)

Quantum Pool: 20

Powers: 1 Level 3 at 5 (25 BP), 1 Level 1 power at 5 (10 BP)

Base Quantum Pool: 12 at Quantum Rating 1, +2 for each additional level of Quantum Rating

This give a bonus to having an item that can be (temporarily) taken away or broken instead of just an inherent power, without making it game breaking.

Thoughts?

[z006]

Cent - Fox included a Magic Knowledge skill in IE for universes that have a magical base. As Vyserian is effectively from one of those universes, I'd probably just use that unless someone objects. It's the best equivalent of the Spellcraft skill and Item Creation Feats from DnD.

[Kazuo]

Yeah, if he's from a magic-using universe then I would absolutely use one of those - and if I've understood Fox correctly, then any innovations Viserian created would actually be using magic - as opposed to the PC I'm currently working on who's meant to be a native of the CN Earth and whose inventions would only appear to be magical (really, more 'mystical' than 'magical') in nature.

[z006]

Well, it's debatable about Vyserian's "reality". Amaranth, his player in a DnD game, erupted in to him. S/he is a CN native, if now a bit mentally split on things.

[Justin OOC]

Mala your latest version is the most balanced I've seen, it has my vote

[SeaEagle]

I'm behind this. 100%

[Kazuo]

Sorry, I didn't notice that you'd put up a revision to your system, Mala.

Here's what I'm seeing, and why I don't care for it (that isn't meant in a disparaging way - and certainly not towards you - it's just meant to indicate that I see problems with it):

Firstly, according the examples you've posted, an L3 power with Q5 and 5 dots costs exactly the same as an in-theme L3 power at 5 dots that a character might simply possess, sans Device/Gadget/Invention. What is my motivation for choosing to have these devices at all unless I just plain really, really want to have my powers be a device? (And if that's the case, then why don't I simply purchase the power as-is and take on a weakness or the Aberration 'Dumbo Syndrome' dictating that I can't use the power without my device. It'd certainly be a lot simpler than any of the rules systems that have been proposed so far, my own included.)

On the other hand, purchasing an L3 power with Q5 and a single dot would cost me 6NP or 32XP. Now I really don't have any incentive to build a device! Holy crap! It'd be way easier to just build the stuff in-game 'for free' and, according to these rules, once it's done I don't even have to worry about it breaking down! Seriously, what's my motivation for ever purchasing an invention under any circumstance that doesn't involve some sort of 'gamer purity' or some other ideological reasoning? Because - and this is important - RPGPost does not have a long and glorious history of attracting only the kinds of gamers who would take that kind of attitude.

Now, what about basic advancements? Well, let's say I want me a sword that adds +3 accuracy and +3 damage. Nothing too over-the-top there, right?

Then why is it costing me 2NP!!! What the nonsense?! Forget that, I'm gonna wait and build the thing in-game. It'll take me, like, 3 days to do and then I've got me a free bad-ass katana blade. Whoo!

Now let's look at an already-established gadget. Carver's 'The Flintlock!' is a Q2 Quantum Bolt with 3 dots to it. This would cost 23BP to build if I'm doing my math right (Q2 x 7BP = 14BP, 3 dots of an L2 power is another 9BP, total is 23BP, correct?). This would cost 4NP/24XP!!!! Holy crap! This is still 2NP less than what Carver would have to pay to purchase a Quantum Bolt as an out-of-theme power, but it's also 2XP more than she'd have to pay to purchase the same power in-game with XP, and it's also 1NP more than someone else would have to pay for the power outright if it's in-theme (making it not very appealing for anyone to take a gadget for a power that would otherwise be in-theme). And it's not even working as well as it would if she did purchase it outright for Karrie.

Continuing on, 'The Sexah Leather' would cost ((Q3 x 7BP) + (Q3 x 7BP) = 42BP + (L2 Pwr @ 4 dots x 3BP) + (L2 Pwr@ 4 dots x 3BP) = 66BP. This is 9NP/60XP. All of a sudden, this is way less than simply buying the powers outright (though it's slightly more than buying them outright if they're in-theme). But only in NP, in XP is pretty much the same cost.

Basically, what I'm seeing is that there is a draw to this system if you're interested in purchasing high-powered gadgets that our out-of-theme for less than they'd cost you to purchase outright. There is little-to-no draw for purchasing low-powered gadgets in- or out-of-theme, and there is, at all stages, a lot of draw to simply build the items in-game 'for free'. Most of which will take less than 2 weeks in-game to do.

To me, this is wildly open to abuse. That's why I have a problem with it. I mean no disrespect to you, Mala, or to anyone else involved in this discussion, but this system is not, IMO, balanced.

[z006]

Well, one of the points was that you couldn't build anything for free. No free gadgets/devices in the game period. The option points were 'ported over from Dave's Gadget rules. I admit that I didn't much look at them.

On the costs, I may have confused you. The example posted shows that buying a 10 NP Inspired Tech would get you effectively a Level 1 power at 5 dots for free in addition to granting the Level 3 power at 5 dots on the device.

I think part of our communication issue is that I have really hard time reading your posts.

"Continuing on, 'The Sexah Leather' would cost ((Q3 x 7BP) + (Q3 x 7BP) = 42BP + (L2 Pwr @ 4 dots x 3BP) + (L2 Pwr@ 4 dots x 3BP) = 66BP. This is 9NP/60XP. All of a sudden, this is way less than simply buying the powers outright (though it's slightly more than buying them outright if they're in-theme). But only in NP, in XP is pretty much the same cost." - This makes my eyes bleed for some reason and while I can understand the individual parts, I can't put them together in my head in a way that makes it make sense.

[Kazuo]

An example of creating the Flintlock! using my proposed system:

As a Device: It costs 2NP. Done. Moving on.

As an innovative super-science invention:

First, let’s look at Karen’s relevant traits: Dexterity 4, Firearms 2, Stamina 4, Mega-Stamina 1 w/Tireless, Intelligence 5, Mega-Intelligence 5 w/Inventive Genius and Mental Prodigy: Engineering, Engineering 5.

Now let’s look at The Flintlock!: Quantum of 2, Quantum Pool of 15, Power Rating of 3 dots, Dice pool of 6d10 (Karen’s Dexterity + Firearms).

Okay then. From here we’ll just drop on down the list of Innovative categories:

Quantum Rating: Karen’s Quantum rating of 5 means she can build an innovation with Quantum of up to 3 for ‘free’. No additional R&D, no additional difficulty to the R&D roll. So The Flintlock!’s Q-rating of 2 costs us nothing.

Quantum Pool: The rule is 1 day of additional R&D per (Q-rating of the innovation) QP added. Since Karen could take a Q-rating of 3 if she wanted at no cost – even though she’s actually ‘settling’ for a rating of 2 – we’ll say that she can add QP in blocks of 3. 15/3 = 5 days of R&D. No increase in difficulty on the R&D roll.

Effect: 3 dots of Quantum Bolt. This is an L2 power that Karen does not have, so it will add 6 days of R&D per dot, and a flat +2 to difficulty. Our running total is currently 23 days R&D and +2 difficulty.

Relevant Dice Pool: Dexterity + Firearms. Karen’s is 6d10, which means the innovation has 3d10 by default. Increasing this up to 6d10 is 3 days R&D per extra die, for a total of 9 days R&D. Running total is now 32 days, +2 difficulty.

Secondary Function: None.

Usability: The description of the Flintlock! doesn’t say, so we’ll assume it’s only meant to be usable by Karen.

Durability: By default, this would be 4 HL/ 2 Soak (1 less than Wood’s entry on pg. 257 of Aberrant). We’ll assume this is fine for Karen’s purposes.

Ok, so we’ve got a +2 difficulty and 32 days of base R&D time. With Karen’s Mental Prodigy: Engineering, she can roll her Intelligence and expect to get right around 6 successes, statistically, double this if she also brings in her Inventive Genius (and why wouldn’t she?). Assuming these statistical results, this would give her a dice pool of 22 regular dice and 5 mega-dice. This would likely result in right around 14 to 15 successes, which is 12 to 13 over the difficulty of the R&D roll. This would reduce her R&D time to 19 or 20 days.

Now onto Construction: The chart tells us this would be about 2 days. So there you go.

All told, Karen’s looking at around 22 days of work before she’ll have her Flintlock! as an innovative invention. If Karen just wanted this to be a “fast and dirty” invention, then this would translate to around 22 hours. If she needed it immediately, then it would take 22 rounds.

Warranty: Now Karen rolls her Ability dice pool (Engineering) of 10 regular dice and 5 mega-dice. She’ll probably get around 8 successes (again, that’s statistically). Meaning her Flintlock! would be good for around 8 months, 8 days, or 8 uses, depending on which method of construction she opted for.

And there you are. We’re all done.

I’m sorry if this system seems complicated to anyone. It’s really not, and it really does work (IMO, at least).

[Kazuo]

Well, one of the points was that you couldn't build anything for free. No free gadgets/devices in the game period. The option points were 'ported over from Dave's Gadget rules. I admit that I didn't much look at them.

On the costs, I may have confused you. The example posted shows that buying a 10 NP Inspired Tech would get you effectively a Level 1 power at 5 dots for free in addition to granting the Level 3 power at 5 dots on the device.

I think part of our communication issue is that I have really hard time reading your posts.

"Continuing on, 'The Sexah Leather' would cost ((Q3 x 7BP) + (Q3 x 7BP) = 42BP + (L2 Pwr @ 4 dots x 3BP) + (L2 Pwr@ 4 dots x 3BP) = 66BP. This is 9NP/60XP. All of a sudden, this is way less than simply buying the powers outright (though it's slightly more than buying them outright if they're in-theme). But only in NP, in XP is pretty much the same cost." - This makes my eyes bleed for some reason and while I can understand the individual parts, I can't put them together in my head in a way that makes it make sense.

Sorry my posts are hard to read. Also, sorry I misunderstood your post. I'll re-read and re-assess my response to it as soon as I have time. Unfortunately, I have to go now and won't be back on until much later.

Again, my apologies if my misunderstand of your post has led to my forming an unwarranted opinion of your proposed rules system.

[z006]

No need to apologize, I just wanted you to know that part of the issue was my ability to read.

Here's my builds for the three gadgets you mentioned:

On the sword, understanding that we're nixing free in-game building, I'm going to go over it just to try to understand the build you were using.

+3 Accuracy (6 BP)

+3 Lethal Damage (I'm assuming, as it's a blade) (9 BP)

15 BP

This would cost 3 NP (with 6 more BP to spend, then), or 12 xp as is. That doesn't seem out of place, I don't have an equivalent non-gadget NP or xp cost to compare it to. I would say that if people see this as too expensive, then the BP costs of Options need to be adjusted.

The Flintlock!

Quantum 2 (14 BP)

Quantum Pool: 14

Quantum Bolt 3 (9 BP)

23 BP

4 NP (with 5 more BP available) or 20 xp (with 2 BP available).

As in-theme power: 6 NP (3 NP for the extra 14 (well, 15) QP points), 54 xp (12 xp for Q. Bolt 3, 42 xp for the extra 14 QP points)

As out-of-theme power: 16 NP (7 for the extra 14 QP points), 62 xp (20 xp for Q. Bolt 3, 42 xp for the extra 14 QP points)

The Sexah Leatherness

Quantum 3 (21 BP)

Quantum Pool: 20 (1 BP)

Armor 4 (12 BP)

Force Field 4 (12 BP)

46 BP

7 NP (with 2 BP available) or 40 xp (with 4 BP available).

As in-theme power: 12 NP (4 NP for the extra 20 QP points), 104 xp (42 xp for Armor 4 & Force Field 4, 60 xp for the extra 20 QP points)

As out-of-theme power: 28 NP (4 NP for the extra 20 QP points), 130 xp (70 xp for Armor 4 & Force Field 4, 60 xp for the extra 20 QP points)

Part of the cost benefit of Inspired Tech is the individual quantum point pools, though it's also part of the drawback as you have a limited number of uses and can't force the item to recover quantum quicker.

On Durability, I don't know this, so I don't have anything in the rules on it. I assume it's how many effective health levels the item has (based on the base item, I would assume). I think perhaps that Bodymods need to be added in, with Extra Health Levels to be able to make an item more durable than another item of its type. I'll work on that and post up another repost of the compiled rules.

[z006]

Part of my issue with your system, Cent, is the sheer number of things to keep track of for each device. Things to track when making the device, tracking time the item has been in play once it's created....it's a headache. You may think it's simple, but it is really really complicated in construction to me and has the added annoyance of me needing to keep track of when the device entered play to see if I still have use of it or whatever I have to do once its "Warranty" time runs out.

[Sean Cassidy]

Okay, I'll make another proposal. As much as I like the BP option, it doesn't seem to be working very well, so, I'll suggest something simple.

Gadgets: As Dave original proposed, only Advancement Options are available.

Devices: Centi proposed the half cost method and Carver suggested simply a flat -1 per dot of power, or something to that effect. Just to keep it simple, let's go with something similar.

Reduce costs by half (or by a third, if we think a 50% cost break is too much). Most powers will be considered in-theme for costs. Because this can get some weird results (like 1np = 4 dots in a level 1 power, and you want either 3 or 5 dots), so instead, just total up the NP/XP of all the powers you've bought as a Device, assign those powers to specific devices, so you know what goes with what, then assign the cost reduction (ie, half or one third).

Don't bother with the extras Centimane proposed - do you have to apply them to all the powers in a Device, or just one? People get their devices back with near certainty, just not when they like. If they get stolen, it's for plot and story; likewise, we can just say whoever stole it can or can't use it, as necessary for the plot or story.

For Q-rating or Q-pool, either just use the PC's, or go with minimum needed for the Power(s) in the device and a Q-pool of 10+(QRx2) (Q-pool has to be recharged by the PC or through some other method, doesn't happy naturally - try not to blow through all of your devices at once). I'm fine with either option - there's pros and cons for both. We could even have both in play, if we want, maybe.

If you really want to add Advancement Options to the Device, just buy various dots of Gadgets, and say the Gadget and the Device are the same thing and slap them together. Done.

Creating Super-Sciency Stuff:

Both Centimane and Malachite came up with rules for rolls and how long it takes. All fine and good if you need guidelines, but not really all that necessary. I like Dawn's suggestion of more or less hand-waving the construction of one-shot items, like how she made the phone when trapped - that was a perfect example. Use them once, maybe twice, and they're gone.

Sorry, but from my point of view, something with a duration of 8+ months is hardly temporary, and after it's been build once, it's even easier to make it again. I don't think we should be allowed to make free stuff, as Mala has said. If you want a Device or Gadget, buy it.

As much as I like the BP system we have been trying to create, there is another issue I've seen. The NP costs are fine, since everything costs a flat amount per dot. But with XP, using our current BP-Device system, everything still has a flat cost per dot, whereas if you are buying the power normally, the xp costs get bigger with the higher number of dots you have. As such, I like Centi's and Carv's idea of simply buying Devices as powers with a 'flaw' (it can be taken away), giving you a price cut.

[Sailor OOC]

So it looks like right now I, Mala, and Justin on Mala's Proposal, Cent dead against, and Kevin with their own. Where does Jeremy, Carver, and Fox sit on this?

[z006]

Advanced Tech: Options only, no Inspired Options.

Inspired Tech: Options & Inspired Options.

R&D time: 1 day per NP or 4 xp spent on the device, base. Each dot of Mega-Int reduces the time by one day and appropriate Enhancements reduce the time further by 12 hrs down to a minimum of one day.

Suggested Enhancements -

Prodigies for associated mental skills.

Artistic Genius for Arts as the associated skill.

Fast Tasks.

Multitasking.

Any others people can think of off the top of their heads?

Note

- MacGuyvering: A character may create "on the fly" or one-shot items with an appropriate roll; the number of successes needed is determined by the plot ST or by narrative and takes 5 minutes per success out of combat or 1 round per success in combat. As a suggestion, each success provides 1 BP for the item; in the case of Advanced Tech, a BP may be spent to buy 3 more uses of the device above the base one use and multiple BP can be spent this way. For Inspired Tech, the device will work until it runs out of qp. These items work only briefly as previously described, being cobbled together, but can provide the basis for permanent items later on.

Repairs: 1/10th the time and 1/100th of the original cost of the item per health level of the item repaired.

Upgrades: Same time commitment as R&D; the cost is just for the additional BP.

Mass Production - (this represents the time needed to prep a new tech for mass production)

Advanced Tech: 1 day per BP.

Inspired Tech: 1 week per BP.

Cost Chart

1 NP = 7 BP

4 xp = 5 BP

Options - add $500 to the base worth of an item for each BP spent on Options. Materials cost (base item + $50/BP) for determining Resources availability.

Weapon Options - Strength Max is the Destruction rating of melee items (see Armor, Core Book pg. 277), Wooden Ranged Weapons have a Destruction rating of 3, primarily molded plastic/metal Ranged Weapons are a 6.

1 BP - Bashing Damage +1, Destruction +1, Lower Strength Min by 1, Range +50% (max x2), Maneuver (It has to make sense for the user or the gadget), Rate of Fire +1, Clip +50% (max x2)

2 BP - Accuracy, Lethal Damage +1, Concealability down by 1 step

3 BP - Raise Strength Max by 1 (includes Destruction bonus)

Armor Options

1 BP - Destruction +1

2 BP - Penalty reduced by 1

Vehicle Options

1 BP - Safe Speed +50%, Max Speed +50%, Maneuver, Passangers +50% (only once), extra Battered Structural Level

2 BP - Armor +1, extra Dented Structural Level

3 BP - Armor +[1], extra Scraped Structural Level

General Options

1 BP - Bashing Soak +1

2 BP - Lethal Soak +2

Inspired Options - add $5,000 to the worth of the item for each BP spent on Inspired Options. Materials cost (base time + $500/BP) for determining Resources availability (this is primarily to reflect finding rare materials that will hold a quantum signature to work into the item).

Purchase costs:

1 BP = +2 QP, per NP cost of a Body Modification

2 BP = Level 1 powers, Enhancement

3 BP = Level 2 powers, M-Att

5 BP = Level 3 powers

7 BP = Quantum Rating

Example build:

10 NP = 1 Level 3 power at 5, in-theme (70 BP)

56 xp = 1 Level 3 power at 5, in-theme (70 BP)

70 BP

Quantum: 5 (35 BP)

Quantum Pool: 20

Powers: 1 Level 3 at 5 (25 BP), 1 Level 1 power at 5 (10 BP)

Base Quantum Pool: 12 at Quantum Rating 1, +2 for each additional level of Quantum Rating

Note on Destruction ratings of non-Weapon/Armor items - The base Destruction level will have to be case-by-case. Please use common sense. For example, if Vyserian creates a "magic" ring, the base Destruction rating would be 1 because it's a ring. Most small items and non-wooden or metal items are going to start at a rating of 1.

[SeaEagle]

I think we should add to that for options the ability to add mundane items into advanced tech gadgets. With a BP cost based on the resource dot value of the items used.

[z006]

Can you give me an example of what you mean, Umi?

[z-Coyote-Mad Scientist]

So it looks like right now I, Mala, and Justin on Mala's Proposal, Cent dead against, and Kevin with their own. Where does Jeremy, Carver, and Fox sit on this?

I vote for my own system. I like Cent's stuff, but its way too much like the APG for me. I DO NOT want to use Build Points for power-based gadgets when we have NP or xp to use and people get a cost break on their costs. The cost break should be equvilant (IE has no spell check ) to how often we plan to take devices away. Half cost is way too cheap unless we're planning for the PCs to get them taken away about half the time - not something I look forward to as a player or ST.

I'll clarify my system a bit and resubmit. Very few people commented on it so I don't know if it was lost in the flood of replies or people really jsut hate it.

[SeaEagle]

I'm going to withdraw my vote then until Carver has a chance to produce a gadgets solution.

I'm also going to wait with my example on Mala's until I see Carver's.

[SeaEagle]

I am thinking though we should, after Carver gets her suggestion in, to close the table for suggestions and methods and actually try to get this done.

It feels to me we've had 3 false starts which caused a flurry of rebuild on the system. It's time we decide which direction to go.

[Sean Cassidy]

Carver - my latest suggestion was most similar to yours, I believe, with one or two adjustments or additions. I didn't come up with all the nitty-gritty details, but I think I had enough for us to go on. Kept non-powered Gadgets as they were, and for Devices, left it easily adjustable for a 50% or 33% cost break (or any percentage we deem fair, really).

Tried to explain my reasoning for why a flat xp cost for BP, instead of needing to buy a gadget rating granting so many BP, doesn't quite scale fairly with people buying powers normally with XP (At character creation using NP, the flat costs of things is fine, since everything is bought per dot, with no matter how many dots you already have in a power/Mega/skill/etc).

Looking forward to what you come up with, Carver.

Everyone, I just want to say, while this is getting kind of exhausting (mostly from staying up too late trying to work out a solution), I'm not mad or annoyed in the least. I think, for the most part, we've been considerate and patient, without getting too exasperated, while still working on a solution we can all agree with. Many rules discussions here have been far more... aggressive. I just want to say thank-you..

[z006]

My main issue with what you suggested, Carver, was the Out-of-Theme cost for powers that the character doesn't have. Vyserian doesn't have any, which rather screws him over in comparison to all of the other PCs. The gadgets are his theme for the most part (his theme is DnD Elf character, but he won't be able to "cast spells" again on his own until several major character development plots are worked through).

I also like the BP system because you can mix-and-match Options and Inspired Options on a single device and you can build things into a single device as high as you're willing to pay for. The system you proposed (at least how it read to me) doesn't allow mixing and still restricts gadgets to 20 OP at max (at least until Plot Devices are allowed, and then the max is 36 OP).

I get the allure of saying "just stick a weakness on a power that makes it a device" but that doesn't address devices with multiple powers, ones that could also have Options on them, or what happens when someone else tries to use the device-power.

I also understand the issue of flat-buy vs. xp costs.....

For the sake of finishing this whole damn mess sometime in the next year, here's another suggestion that tries to address everyone's concerns:

1. Go back to the "container" idea. A Gadget/Device/Whatever is an item that contains Options and/or Powers.
   
2. Advanced Tech is Options-only.
   
3. Inspired Tech is Options & Powers or Powers only.
   
4. R & D times are in-game time commitments by the character, not out-of-game time commitments.
   
5. Options are bought 20 for 1 NP or 3 for 2 xp. This is flat because Options aren't powers.
   


1. Under the old system, you'd get 20 for 1 NP (because that buys 5 background points) or
   
   

[*]Powers/M-Atts/Enhancements are bought at -1 NP or -3 xp per dot/Ehnahncement/whatever. 1 NP or 1 xp must be spent on each power or Enhancement or whatever; if the cost-break reduces the cost of one dot below 1 NP or 1 xp, then multiple dots are conferred until the cost reaches at least 1 NP or 1 xp. No free powers, ehnhancemes, etc.

1. 4 for 2 xp or (2:1)
   
2. 8 for 4 xp or (2:1)
   
3. 12 for 8 xp or (3:2)
   
4. 16 for 14 xp or (8:7)
   
5. 20 for 22 xp. (10:11) (all done together you get an average ration of roughly 3:2)
   
The cost of powers is in-theme if the device fits the theme of the character or the character already possesses the power (even if the power was bought out-of-theme); otherwise it's bought out-of-theme for the gadget. Base Quantum Rating is the highest minimum QR needed for the power(s) in an item, base Quantum Pool is 10 + (QR x 2). Buying higher QR or extra QP is done as if tainted for in-theme gadgets and at the book cost for out of theme gadgets.
Examples for in-theme and out-of-theme determinations -
• Vysarian building a magic ring with spell equivalents available to him from his DnD character sheet (yes, I made one) count as in-theme. Making a spiffy gun or souped-up car would be out-of-theme because it does not at all fit the DnD theme.
  
• Karrie making anything she can explain using actual phsyics (or really damn close) would be in-theme, as would making a gadget that contained only Options and powers Karrie already possessed. Making an item that is just blatantly "quantum magic" would be out-of-theme. The Flintlock! is perfectly in-theme, but a device that summons monster to fight for her (FF, Quantum Construct, not Animal Mastery) wouldn't be because it's just too fantastic.
  

Advanced Tech: Options only.

Inspired Tech: Options & Innovations.

R&D time: One hour of reserch/design plus 5 hours per NP or 1 hour per 2 xp, base.

Note
- MacGuyvering: A character may create "on the fly" or one-shot items with an appropriate roll; the number of successes needed is determined by the plot ST or by narrative and takes 5 minutes per success out of combat or 1 round per success in combat. As a suggestion, each success provides 2 "xp" for the item; in the case of Advanced Tech, 1 "xp" may be spent to buy an extra use of the device above the base one use and multiple "xp" can be spent this way. For Inspired Tech, the device will work until it runs out of qp but the device can only have the base qp (no "xp" can be spent on extra qp). These items work only briefly as previously described, being cobbled together, but can provide the basis for permanent items later on (removing the 1 hour of planning/design time).
Failing a use roll on a MacGuyvered device counts as a botch and the device instantly breaks. Botching a use roll not only instantly breaks the device but deals one level of lethal damage to the user (it explodes, cuts the hands as it falls apart, whatever is appropriate for the device).

Repairs: 1/10th the time and 1/100th of the original cost of the item per structural/destruction level of the item repaired.

Upgrades: Same time commitment as R&D; the cost is just for the additional NP or xp.

Mass Production - (this represents the time needed to prep a new tech for mass production)

1 day per xp and/or 5 days per NP spent on the item.

Options:

Weapon Options - Strength Max is the Destruction rating of melee items (see Armor, Core Book pg. 277), Wooden Ranged Weapons have a Destruction rating of 3, primarily molded plastic/metal Ranged Weapons are a 6.

1 OP - Bashing Damage +1, Destruction +1, Lower Strength Min by 1, Range +50% (max x2), Maneuver (It has to make sense for the user or the gadget), Rate of Fire +1, Clip +50% (max x2)

2 OP - Accuracy, Lethal Damage +1, Concealability down by 1 step

3 OP - Raise Strength Max by 1 (includes Destruction bonus)

Armor Options

1 OP - Destruction +1

2 OP - Penalty reduced by 1

Vehicle Options

1 OP - Safe Speed +50%, Max Speed +50%, Maneuver, Passangers +50% (only once), extra Battered Structural Level

2 OP - Armor +1, extra Dented Structural Level

3 OP - Armor +[1], extra Scraped Structural Level

General Options

1 OP - Bashing Soak +1

2 OP - Lethal Soak +2

Note on Destruction ratings of non-Weapon/Armor items - The base Destruction level will have to be case-by-case. Please use common sense. For example, if Vyserian creates a "magic" ring, the base Destruction rating would be 1 because
it's a ring
. Most small items and non-wooden or metal items are going to start at a rating of 1.

[SeaEagle]

Just a question, Mala.

With Advanced tech, is it possible to combine two existing objects as well? For instance placing a cell phone in a helmet, or those glasses I built prior to this?

I was thinking that to figure the OP cost of a item's integration into another would be equal to the item's resource cost.

So if the 2 Dot Cell phone is being put into a helmet, it would be a 2OP add-on. So on and so forth.

You would just need to be able to get those items with the resources you have.

[Justin OOC]

Device should never benefit from in theme costs the costs should always be straight.

they are NOT part of the character in any way, as they can be removed, destroyed, and aren't part of the user's quantum signature. They have their own powers and own quantum power source.

[Novakowski]

I got a question. so far i see a lot of designs that says xp cost/np cost.

what about in game what ater the rules for crafting.

Mr fox stated character must have the skills needed.

are you basing it off of D20 aberrant R&D or Exalted artifact crafting or even Brainwaves.

Xp cost is only for plot immunity. or am i wroung so one can't build with out it turning into xp drain.

I reread New Flesh and Brainwaves.

Are we just Mini-max to make NP go father. i been reading so i am getting confused as the thread seem to shift focus.

From what i understand if you want a watch with cellphone and camera and wireless with gps that is like 4 options so it is over $1500 and lvl 1 to 2 Device/ artifact/ gadget. even in the real world i got one in Japan for $200

I also get mix up with Device/ gadget/ etc

in Aberrant Device is normal device that one can buy or be supplied by a organization ( I.E BFG,Nano bugs from De'vris)

a gadget is a heavly modified device that can't be found in market or inspired with can conly be used by a nova.

I guess what i am asking is What are we trying to do here make ruling on creating with in the game or just min-max character to strech a all ready large pool of points.

[z006]

So Thor's Hammer isn't an integral part of the character? I'm talking the movie and comic books here, not the mythology, as were looking at game mechanics.

[Justin OOC]

it's not part of his power, no. It is an item of power.

[z006]

Seirously? You're arguing that Mjolnir, were Thor a character in a game, is not in-theme? Is not an integral, vital part of the character's concept?

[z006]

You know what - whatever. You made your opinion abundantly and rudely clear in chat. Just vote against it, then.

[SeaEagle]

Here is how I see this. Perhaps we need to look at this from the standpoint of an engineer or a scientist. We have a problem and that is coming up with a rules set that provides a guideline to creating a breed of gadgets in a world not meant for them (Aberrant).

1: The Gadgets being made have to have some benefit to the character. Or else they wouldn't try using them.

2: The Gadget has to have a commensurate drawback that while limiting doesn't dissuade a potential gadgeteer from acquiring or building a gadget.

3: The Gadget is something that isn't available in the real world. At all. This should be the only thing covered.

4: The option of adding the extraordinary to a mundane item should also be an option.

Here is how I recommend we solve this issue.

1: We remove invention times completely. In a PbP environment this is unnecessarily harsh and punitive limitation.

2: Make it so you CANNOT get a invention made for free. If you want to MacGyver that's fine, Just consider it a one shot gadget, with as many dots (up to 5) in successes you get with the requisite roll. Just hope you have the stuff you need around you. This rewards creativity by using the environment around your character.

3: If you pay NP to make a gadget, you cannot improve on the gadget, but you pay half the cost.

4: If you pay XP to make a gadget, while you pay half price to make it, you have to pay double to improve it.

5: The OP/BP system works for customizing existing gear and should be seperated completely from the Gadget issue for now. I will be posting something about that next.

This is what I am thinking. I'm not going to bother further if people think this is a waste of time. But if you think this provides a skeleton for a potential solution let me know.

[z006]

Here's one last suggestion:

Gadgets are just Advanced Tech. You can buy Options for the Gadget at a rate of 20 for 1 NP, 4 for one FP, or 2 for 3 xp.

Innovations are powers bought at least the "Item" Weakness that can have Options applied to the item as well, for the same costs as above.

Innovation Weaknesses & Strengths

Weaknesses

Item - All Innovations must have this and its is a 3 pt Weakness that means that the power is housed in an item. It runs off of your Quantum Rating, using your Quantum Pool and relevant die pools; if it is taken by another nova they can use it with their own relevant pools at whatever power rating is stored in the item. The item may also be a Gadget, that is a player's choice and the Gadget must be payed for separately.

Mundane Materials - This weakness means that the item that the power is contained in is breakable, requiring repair or recreation of the item (ie, time spent in game without access to the item). 1 pt of this weakness gives the item 8 health levels, a soak of 6 B/6 L and 12 levels of Armor (essentially the statistics of a Main Battle Tank, Core Book, pg 278). Each additional point reduces the structural integrity of the item by either 2 health levels or 3 Bashing Soak or 3 Lethal Soak or 4 levels of Armor. All powers in a single item must have the same Mundane Materials rating.

Strengths

Quantum Battery - The item stores quantum that can be used instead of a nova's own quantum pool. This Strength costs 1 pt for every 2 quantum points that can be stored in the item; every three purchases also confers one level of Quantum Rating on the item itself. The item will recharge from the ambient quantum energies around it at a rate of 1 qp per hour per Quantum Rating of the item. If the item does not have a Quantum Rating, it must always be recharged by a nova. A nova may also transfer additional quantum points into the item at a rate determined by their Node rating. This means that baselines or other non-nova people may use the device so long as it has quantum in it, but may not recharge it themselves; either they must wait for it to recharge according to its Quantum Rating or find a nova to recharge it for them. The item will run off the user's relevant die pools, but quantum minimums are ignored. Quantum Battery purchases on powers are cumulative and the item has a communal quantum pool for the powers to draw from.

Mine and Mine Alone - The power in the item is bound the user or can only be passed on to another in a specific (and willing) manner by the user. Anyone else attempting to use the power in the item without the permission or knowledge of the owner finds themselves holding just an inert item. This Strength costs 2 pts and does not have to be bought for each power. Any power in the item that does not have this Strength will be available to anyone that has control of the item.

Extra: Recall

This extra allows an Innovation to appear at the nearest appropriate spot to the owner, with whatever appropriate fluff for how it got there. If an Innovation has multiple powers attached to it then all powers must purchase Recall to have the effect (since only one item is being moved). Recall is a standard action in combat.

Mega-Attibutes

Maybe be included as a permanent boost to the character's stat so long as they control the item. The total Mega-Attribute rating may not to exceed the user's Quantum Rating or the item's Quantum Rating, whichever is hgher, but is allowed to exceed the user's base stat. This follows the same rules as other Innovation powers in regards to Strengths and Weaknesses and is considered a Level 2 power already at the dots of the user's own Mega-Attribute for determining costs. No free Enhancements are conferred from this boost.

Enhancements

Enhancements are purchased as a 1 dot Level 2 power and follows the rules as other Innovation powers in regards to Strengths and Weaknesses.

Strength -

Phantom Power: This Strength costs 2 pts per purchase; each purchase grants a +1 to the effective Mega-Attribute rating when determining the effect of the Enhancement it is attached to. The effect cannot exceed the Quantum Rating of the user or the item, whichever is higher.

As Innovations are just powers housed in items; therefore if the power would be in-theme for the character, it is purchased in-theme and vice versa if it would be out-of-theme. The power may be specialized just as standard powers would be. Putting Options on the item costs the normal Gadget/Options costs as well as one dot of the Incorporation power bought at out of theme cost. This dot of Incorporation is one standard dot, no Strengths or Weaknesses listed here required or allowed and no others (or Extras) allowed; it is simply here to reflect the ability to combine Advanced Technology with Inspired Technology. The durability of the item is determined by the Innovation (meaning indestructible unless the Mundane Materials weakness has been taken).

I don't care about R&D times. It's PbP and Open World. I would just say that mass production of something should still take time, but hopefully we can just leave it nebulous and done through good, common-sense roleplaying.

I think that addresses most of the issues we've been running in circles around; using Strengths and Weaknesses allows Innovations to be highly specialized powers.

[z-Coyote-Mad Scientist]

Fuck.

[z-Coyote-Mad Scientist]

,,

This is a very simple system. I don’t know if you’ll like it, but I wanted to suggest it for people. It puts the cost for a gadget somewhere between the in-theme and out-of-theme costs, which is where they would be, in my opinion. Thanks for any feedback or thoughts.

,,

Gadgets the background: as per Dave’s rules.

,,

Gadgets are meant to improve already existing items.

The costs are outlined as such:

● Mediocre Gadget with up to 4 options
●● Minor Gadget with up to 8 options
●●● Major Gadget with up to 12 options
●●●● Powerful Gadget with up to 16 options
●●●●● Artifact Gadget with up to 20 options

Accuracy (+1/2OP), Damage (+1/2OP or +[1]/3OP), Strength-Min (-1/1OP), Strength-Max (+1/2OP), Range (+50%/1OP, max x2), Maneuver (+1Mnv/1OP) - It has to make sense for the user or the gadget, Rate of Fire (+1/1OP), Clip (+50%/1OP, max x2), Concealability (-1 step/2OP)

Armor-
Bashing (+1/2OP), Lethal (+1/2OP), Penalty (-1/2OP), Destruction (+1/1OP)

Vehicles-
Safe Speed (+50%/1OP), Max Speed (+50%/1OP), Maneuver (+1/1OP), Passangers (+50%/1OP, only once), Armor (+1/1OP or +[1]/2OP)

,,

Time: Research is one day per option point and construction is one day per 2 option points. Powers and enhancements can lower this as appropriate.

R&D costs: Level of the Gadget -2 (Resources or Backing)

,,

Devices, powers built into an item

,,

Devices are the super-science of the world. They cannot be created by someone without a quantum score.

,,

Level	NP costs	XP New Dot	Increase (x current)
Level 1	1/2 dots	2	2
Level 2	2	4	3
Level 3	4	7	5
Level 4	6	10	7
Level 5	8	13	10
Level 6	10	16	13
Mega-Attributes	2	4	3
Enhancements	2	3	--

,,

The quantum level is the minimum required for the power or the creator’s quantum level, whichever is lower.

The quantum pool is 15 +2x Quantum rating.

,,

Enhancements can be bought without the Mega-Attribute; the purchase of a Mega does not confer a free enhancement.

,,

Additional options:

1 NP/3 xp to raise the Quantum

1 NP/3 xp to add 5 to the Q pool

2 NP/6 xp to allow baselines to use

2 NP/6 xp to lock for personal use

,,

Times: Research is 2 days per NP and 1 day per xp; Construction is 1 day per NP and 1 day per 2 xp. Powers and enhancements can lower this as appropriate.

R&D Costs: Research or Backing equal to the highest level power.

,,

Macguyerin’ it

Simple: one-shot items be created by Advanced science/magic/whatever rolls; the number of successes needed is determined by the ST (or narratively) and takes 5 minutes per sux out of combat and 1 round per sux in combat.

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