opnet [OpNet] When not to help?

[Good Alice]

At what point are the means to far for the ends? At what point should we step back and say that if they wanted a better world they would make it better themselves?At what point should we let them suffer because they do not see the problems they have?At what point is it all right to let them live in hell, because it is all they have known?

[z-Clark]

I assume you speak of baselines. If that is indeed your intent, you must state it more specifically. I cannot reply to this post until I specify.

[Good Alice]

Yes.I am only talking about baselines, because novas do now wrong, and live in heaven. If I was talking about baselines only I wouldn't have posted on this forum.

[z-Clark]

Your use of mockery and sarcasm is unneccesary, Good Alice. I wished clarification so that I could answer your question. If you do not make yourself clear, then I will not make a statement that could be false because you did not provide all the possible data needed.

The questions you ask are subjective, based on the person helping and the person recieving the aid. Can you provide a concrete example of these ends and means?

[Splitmind]

I'm not any more qualified to answer this than anyone else, except perhaps through experience of being on the other end. My life has not always been as good as it was now. People who cared tried to help, and I ignored them or pushed them away. After six years of that, it took only six months to turn my life around, but this required that I was willing to seek help.

Franklin once said that God helps them who help themselves. If there's any truth to this, it's because it's impossible to truly help someone who doesn't think they need help. And the knowledge that one needs help must come from one's self; no amount of logical discussion will counter a deep-seated emotion.

So to answer your question, Good Alice, give up when people don't want your help. If need be, give help anonymously so that people are more likely to accept it. But people who don't want the help you're offering won't accept it, and you'll only burn yourself out trying.

On the subject, your quote talks about building a better world. As big a part as Novas play in the world, it's still a Baseline world, and so the assumption that you were concerned primarily with aiding Baselines is not without merit. And this forum isn't about Novas, it's a forum where Novas are the members; posting on this forum is only an indication that you're speaking to Novas, not that the subject matter has to be about Novas. Ill-conceived sarcasm doesn't help you get the answer you were looking for any faster.

[Doctor Nova Madigan]

Most. Vague. Topic. Ever.

I don't have the power to change the world. (Hell, just putting on makeup in the morning is hard, and I have to hold my facial gestures extra long just to make sure the intended recipient saw me smile or nod.) But, that hasn't stopped me from taking a job with Metro Life Flight in Cleveland.* I may not change the world, but the half-dozen patients who I've carried to the trauma center are still alive.

At the end of the day, I get to tell myself that I made a big difference for someone. That's better than giving up, I think.

-----

(* Helicopters can't fly in some kinds of weather, and for the most critically injured, the wait for the chopper is too long.)

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Good Alice:
At what point are the means to far for the ends? At what point should we step back and say that if they wanted a better world they would make it better themselves? At what point should we let them suffer because they do not see the problems they have? At what point is it all right to let them live in hell, because it is all they have known?

Very poetic, unlike some of the above posters, I think what you meant was obvious.

Building a better tomorrow is a journey, not a destination. We are not uplifted by how far down they are, but in helping them we help ourselves. On the very grand scale, there is no “them”, no “they”, there is only “us”. Heaven always has room for one more, so does hell, but it's better to help others into heaven than join them in hell.

[kestrel404]

Ask a silly question... (or in this case, a vague question)

At what point to the means outweigh the ends?

When you cannot justify them to yourself.

At what point should we step back and say that if they wanted a better world they would make it better themselves?

When you no longer care enough to help them despite themselves.

At what point should we let them suffer because they do not see the problems they have?

Same answer.

At what point is it all right to let them live in hell, because it is all they have known?

When they no longer wish to live anywhere else.

[Good Alice]

I am sick of this Novas watching out for other novas. That is why I put this topic up. didn't put it forth because then some of you would say that I was anti-nova.

I am just sick of how if a nova is killed, or put in jail,or something bad happens to them they are martyrs. Sometimes bad things happen to bad people. Some novas are bad people. Deal with it. You don't need rally around every nova who commits a crime. you don't need to rally around every nova who died fighting a war. You don't need to care about a nova who is bad with money.

Hell, just because you are a nova you are far from a saint, and you shouldn't be treated any different from any other person ho did the same thing.

Another thing that pisses me off is how these novas sell themselves for money. Hell I have no love lost for any Elite who dies fighting in a war for a cause they have nothing to do with. I also don't shed a tear for novas who don't seem to understand that things will not fill their lives with happiness.

Still this topic is about the idea that novas are people.Some time people are assholes.

Flicker, you can't change the world? You worry that you can't change the world? I worry that you will.

[Doctor Nova Madigan]

Honestly, if I knew what you were talking about, I'd consider whether I should be offended or not.

So, since ferrying the injured and sick to a hospital will apparently change the world for the worse, what would you rather I do anyway? Perhaps I could go back to being a nobody in an office. I definitely wasn't changing the world there. Would that be better?

There's some larger dynamic that you're hinting at, I think, but it's unclear to me. Could you be more specific?

[Splitmind]

Curious about two things, really. First off, did you ever make whatever decision this thread was predicated upon (if it wasn't just a hypothetical question)?

Second, where's this anger coming from, Alice? It's natural for people to identify with their peer groups, and whether you place us higher, lower, or off to the side, it's still hard for most Novas to relate the same way to baselines as they used to. I respect that you're following sort of a counter-culture with your views, but isn't it kind of silly to be focusing on Nova flaws when you're trying to point out how we are still people? I mean, none of the flaws you mentioned apply only to Novas.