opnet [OpNet] Rehashing old threads

[Ashnod]

Please do not turn this into a "Why I hate the Teragen" thread. I am curious about this for those of you to whom it applies, and I am not going to criticize your responses. I am simply going to listen.

1) If you removed the passage about self-governing from The Null Manifesto, how would you feel about the presentation of novas as an "other-than-human" species?

2) If tomorrow, if the merely the labels changed and life otherwise continued as normal without escalation of conflict or tension, would you be opposed to novas being called/thought-of as "other-than-human?"

3) How do you feel about Violette 'V' D'Aronique's presentation of transhumanism versus The Null Manifesto. If you find it preferable, then why?

Thank you in advance for your honest replies.

[Preston]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:
1) If you removed the passage about self-governing from The Null Manifesto, how would you feel about the presentation of novas as an "other-than-human" species?

Beyond being a mass appeal to a very individualistic sub-species (being homo sapien novus versus homo sapien sapien), it does have merit in that it calls for novas to approach looking at their existance from an other-than-human manner. That is a positive.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:
2) If tomorrow, if the merely the labels changed and life otherwise continued as normal without escalation of conflict or tension, would you be opposed to novas being called/thought-of as "other-than-human?"

No. I see myself as other-than-human and have worked hard to get the humans around me to both accept this reality as well as accept the many possible implications.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:
3) How do you feel about Violette 'V' D'Aronique's presentation of transhumanism versus The Null Manifesto. If you find it preferable, then why?

Ms. D'Aronique's arguments were less confrontational and posed as a "we should think about this", where as the Null Manifesto was more of an "in your face" and "you have no choice but to accept my dictate".
The reality is that many novas do think of themselves as humans with kewl powers. If all they can grasp from the Null Manifesto is a "Might Makes Right" message, they have missed the point.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:
Thank you in advance for your honest replies.

Your welcome.

[Sandcaster]

1) I would consider it the same bit of nonsense that I considered it with Mal's self-governance demands.

2) Yes, I would. It's a factionalization that will, if continued, cause a great deal of harm for no justifiable end.

3) It's a velvet glove versus an iron fist. Both look toward the same goal; but Ms. D'Aronique's approach applies a liberal coating of sugar.

The problem isn't how the idea of "novas as non-humans" is presented; the problem is the core idea itself. Novas and baselines share common parentage (both immediate and racial), common cultures, common blood typings, common reproductive compatibilities...the only difference is the one has a particular gland well-developed, and the other does not. "Latents" blur an already fuzzy line even farther. This is no different than people who possess the ability to wiggle their ears, or have ear lobes, as opposed to those who do not. Simply put -- we are human, delusions of godhood notwithstanding.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Ashnod:1) If you removed the passage about self-governing from The Null Manifesto, how would you feel about the presentation of novas as an "other-than-human" species?

This is a political, rather than scientific argument. Science already says homo sapien novus or homo sapien sapien. Scientifically there is no reason we can’t call aliens “human”.

Historically, the word “human” normally applies to creatures you want to integrate into society as equals, while not-human implies the opposite (and yes, I realize that since this is a political argument other people can and will disagree with this).

Also historically, good things don’t come of one religion, race or other sub-group of sentients declaring another isn’t human. War, genocide, and/or slavery are the usual results… or perhaps the cause.

Quote:

Ashnod:3) How do you feel about Violette 'V' D'Aronique's presentation of transhumanism versus The Null Manifesto. If you find it preferable, then why?

Is it ‘preferable’?: Yes.
Is it a good thing?: No.

Calling ourselves “other than human” sets us down a path I don’t like. The Null Manifesto is much further down that path than V’s stuff, but the eventual destination is the same.

[Singularity]

1) It would be an acknowledgment of one way of looking at things. Although Dr. Troll presents an interesting way of labeling sentient creatures, it's closer to the truth that I'm not human. At least in comparison to a random baseline plucked off the street.

2) I walk through life with label as it is (though Regan and I don't exactly live in a population center) so it wouldn't be opposed to doing something I already do. However, there might be an inherent problem with everyone holding that view because it can lead to an "us versus them" mentality. Prime examples of this mentality, although not yet exploited through fascism, are the Church of Michael Archangel and some of the more genocidal elements of the Teragen. This kind of attitude has been exploited in the past, with fascism being a famous example. The native ethnic group would be considered "normal" while all others would be considered "inferior," making it much easier for the populace to commit horrible acts. That mentality, the "us versus them," is ripe for abuse by power mongers and ignite even the most docile of situations (as highlighted by Dr. Troll).

Of course, some people want that outcome so they're completely in favor of that mentality, if not embracing it.

3) I find Ms. D'Aronique's ideas to be geared towards integration, as opposed to The Null Manifesto being geared towards separate societies. They're two ways of addressing the same situation: baselines and novas are different. As for a preference, Ms. D'Aronique's ideas would do a much better job of helping baselines and novas coexist productively. However, I'm interested to see if she has a solution for preventing novas from adversely affecting baseline development and vice versa.

[Liam Stewart: TAG]

1) If you removed the passage about self-governing from The Null Manifesto, how would you feel about the presentation of novas as an "other-than-human" species?

That there is no purpose or point to it.

2) If tomorrow, if merely the labels changed and life otherwise continued as normal without escalation of conflict or tension, would you be opposed to novas being called/thought-of as "other-than-human?"

Yes.

3) How do you feel about Violette 'V' D'Aronique's presentation of transhumanism versus The Null Manifesto. If you find it preferable, then why?

I think she understood similarities between baseline humanity and nova humanity. I also think she put quatum sensitivity and manipulation into proper perspective. If you were to high-jack the information conduits of the world and put the words of the Null Manifesto in anyone's mouth other than Mal it would sound...

Cracked.

[Madison 'Vali' West]

1) Well, if you consider the (paraphrasing)"we aren't ruled by the conventions of man" thing ... that's too open for abuse as well. Whatever is said, it is the actions that matter.

2) No.

3) I didn't find either preferable. I tend to want to find my own truths.

I would like to ask the questioner a question (or two).

Do you find the actions of those touting the importance of the Null Manifesto to be detrimental to understanding it? Can the Manifesto be misinterpreted?

[Ashnod]

Mr. West,

1) The message can be mistaken for the messenger.

2) Anything can be misinterpreted.

[kestrel404]

1) The Null Manifesto takes a single article of faith and runs with it to the logical extremes. The arguments it makes are agreeable and acceptable only if you accept that single point. Specifically, that "[Novas] are required by destiny to attain their full potential".

If that was the entirety of the message behind the Manifesto, I would agree with it (if only because a nova's full potential is, by definition, whatever he achieves before he dies, assuming that you believe in destiny). However, it is written in an inflamatory and emotional format - true to the Manifesto label - and because of this the document goes beyond requring us to seek our eventual potential, and instead tells us to ignore all other aspects of ourselves in persuit of personal enhancements!

"If you choose to live under the laws of Homo Sapiens Sapiens, you choose to waste your power"

"To allow or encourage any nova to wallow in the base and rapine pleasures of Homo sapiens

sapiens is the very definition of pointless waste of a rare and valuable resource"

"By squandering your gifts on petty baseline

desires and vices, you mire yourself deeper in baseline ideology and morality, making your

personal ascension all the more difficult."

These statements ignore the idea that novas cannot have a baseline aspect in addition to their other aspects. That your roots must be completely forsaken and abandoned in order to grow beyond what you once were. This is much like saying (and in fact, it is saying) that if you are capable of winning the nobel prize for science, you must forsake your family and favorite Op Show because they will prevent you from doing your best work.

"We want only to live in accord with the promptings, which come from our true selves."

On the surface, an innocuous statement. However, it implies that external factors are irrelevant to a nova's growth and evolution, which is much like saying that an ice age is irrelevant to the evolution of tropical fish. External factors are always relevant.

2) I have no problem viewing myself as something that is not human.

3) Transhumanism implies that we improve upon what we gained from our humanity. The Null Manifesto requires that we forsake certain aspects of that humanity, but strongly suggests that we forsake ALL aspects. Neither one is suitable in all cases.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Alchemist, well said.

Madison 'Vali' West: Can the Manifesto be misinterpreted?

I don’t think so. Part of the message is that the social contract and social order needs to be rewritten. The author is still around. If the followers got it wrong then he could correct them or do something like Moses and threaten to walk away. That he hasn’t implies the Manifesto is as much tool as message.

[Splitmind]

1) I would say that even if Divis Mal were to merely suggest that Novas are not "human" and leave it at that, he would still be guilty of breaking apart the whole that is the population of Earth. The view is not a helpful one; Novas are more capable of growth with the assistance of other "people," regardless of whether these assistants are Baseline or Nova. The distinction only serves to isolate us, weaken us all. Truth is subjective here, especially since the Teragen definition of "human" apparently veers wildly from the genetic. We must stand strong--together--if we are to survive.

2) I would be opposed, yes. Attempting to label ourselves as "other than human" serves no purpose but to stroke our egos and frighten Baselines, as if we weren't egotistical enough, and as if the Baselines needed another reason to fear us. Call us freaks, call us gods, but call us Human Freaks and Human Gods, because the alternative both ignores genetics and fractures an already-delicate balance in the world.

3) I haven't familiarized myself with this enough to give an educated opinion.

Long rant cut short: the separation is a) in our minds unnecessary, c) divisive, d) dangerous. We don't have the luxury of wasting time. We have to be ready for visitors.

Oh. Yes. Hi. Splitmind. My name.

[Lemmy Chillmeister]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:


1) If you removed the passage about self-governing from The Null Manifesto, how would you feel about the presentation of novas as an "other-than-human" species?

About the same as I do now. I don't get sick or poisoned, I ain't aged but a day in a year, I freeze shit solid by wanting to, I make it rain and if I really focus I can become GOD ALMIGHTY for a few seconds without the aid of LSD. That ain't human.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:
2) If tomorrow, if the merely the labels changed and life otherwise continued as normal without escalation of conflict or tension, would you be opposed to novas being called/thought-of as "other-than-human?"

Fuck the labels. I know what I know.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:
3) How do you feel about Violette 'V' D'Aronique's presentation of transhumanism versus The Null Manifesto. If you find it preferable, then why?

Good idea. Different strokes and all. Let her talk to folks that are a bit too pussy to hear the unvarnished truth. She's smart and she's cuter than Geryon. Good for her.