opnet [OpNet] Welcome to the future

[kestrel404]

Welcome to the future that Utopia has created for us all. Is it not wonderful?

I remember a discussion we had on this board not too long ago. There was a metaphor involving a pair of trains speeding towards each other, with many of the novas on these boards standing in the middle of the tracks and yelling for the conductors to stop before they crash.

Well, the trains have finally drawn close enough to me that I can recognize the conductors. One is being driven by Utopia, their ideals, and their orchestrators in the Aeon society. It is powered by all the novas in Utopia, in Triton, and all the other idealistic companies that follow the Aeon society's lead.

The other train is being driven by nothing less than human nature. And I've realized that it's not the same size as the Utopian train. It's a lot bigger, and a lot farther away. The protesters on the tracks have thus far been standing much closer to the Utopian end of the tracks, and we'll be the first ones to get knocked off them as the train goes by.

I thought I'd found a middle ground, I thought I'd jumped off of Utopia's train soon enough and gone far enough from it to find the midpoint, and perhaps get the two trains to stop. I was wrong. I was far closer to the Utopian train than I realized, and nearly got run over.

To those of you still on the tracks: The conductor of the train of human nature is blind, deaf and dumb. He will never stop, and never listen to reason, even if he promises both. Even if Utopia's train can be made to stop, the other will ram into it head on unless it can be made to change tracks. And both trains are up to full speed now.

I've taken this metaphor as far is it will go. I hope some of my friends have heard me. I'll be seeing you.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

:Sigh:

There are many dark parts to human nature, riot, murder, rape, etc. Just because they are ‘human nature’ doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be opposed, or that they should be left to run rampant.

By all means, chalk up the riot as a “loss” for Utopia. But I don’t see Utopia’s loss was anyone’s victory.

Generally speaking, the solution to riots is not to fire the police.

[Sakurako Hino]

Fitting metaphor, Alchemist.

I'm picking up the pieces somehow whenever someone gets mowed down. I thought I'd join the protestors, but now I'm protesting the protest.

Let me put it like this. It's sort of like an interesting analogy of the laws of thermodynamics.

You can't win.

You can't tie.

You can't quit.

Once you guys have realized the nature of things, then you can see the problem. Once you get entangled in the situation, then the train gets ya. The only way I could see this situation being any better is if no one started getting their cute little noses all up in the matters of the world from Day 1. But Egos, false pretenses, and sheer ambitions got in the way.

[Long]

When the trains collide even those who managed to get off the tracks can still be affected, The debris from such a wreck will be indiscriminate. It will affect all of us.

[kestrel404]

Long: My metaphor is flawed, but I chose to put it as I did to simplify the idea. When the conflict finally comes, it will engulf this entire planet.

Endeavor: What's done is done. We cannot change the past (not even Timeslip and Ashnod, not from our objective viewpoints at least), so we must work towards our best possible future. I cannot claim to know what that is, but I can point to what it's not.

Dr. Troll: The parts of human nature driving humanity into conflict with Utopia are not the darkest parts of them. In fact many would considder them the brightest elements.

Their drive for freedom and individuality. Their fear and hatred of oppressors. Their need to make a mark on the world around them. These are the innate qualities of humanity that are driving them against Utopia (in all senses of the word).

[Timeslip]

I'm...you know what? I'm simply too tired of the whole mess to even express myself well on the topic. Like Alchemist's metaphor notes, this is a train wreck in the making, and I'm sick and tired of beating my head against the idiots that insist in shoving the throttles up into overdrive. I'm increasingly of the opinion that nothing I say or do will matter one iota with regard to stopping or mitigating this pending disaster, and that the best I can hope for is to keep myself and those closest to my heart about as safe as possible when it happens.

[Sakurako Hino]

Alchemist, yes, we can try to salvage what we have for at least a better scenario to play out, but in all likelyhood, our hands have no stregnth against the house or the more apt poker-faces in the room.

The Dealer: Humanity - It's goals are Tri-Fold. 1, they wish to keep the gravy train flowing that is always around when Novas are about. 2. They want to keep us under their control, 3, they want us to play by their rules.

Poker Face #1: Utopia - Utopia is a UN organization controlled by a Human bureaucracy, but with so many Novas within Utopia, they are developing their own agenda.

Poker Face #2: Those that follow Teras - Except for a small few, most of them are hedonistic Nova Supremacists who love to flaunt that fact. I have found very few who are actually humbled by their gifts.

Poker Face #3 to Ad Nauseum: Elites and their different handlers - So many agendas as not to count.

So tell me, what can we who respect our powers and realize what we have in our hands do to try and create a better world for everyone when we can barely create a good enough world for ourselves? Right now people like us are either band-aids or pawns. We're the clean-up crew.

There is something Vile Bill himself taught me which now I feel is actually worth alot. "Sakurako, all the good intentions and effort in the world at some point might not mean a hill of beans. So you gotta look after yourself first. That doesn't mean not to be true to yourself, just make sure you're covred incase the shit hits the fan."

Hate to say it, but he told me alot of things before he told me being an Elite was a bad idea. CAn't believe at one time I hatd the guy.

[Vox Via]

Timeslip, I have much to show you. I may have to show you to someone who knows more than me. I see awesome things in your future.

Miss Hino, I have learned more from Hitler than I have from Jesus. We learn more from our daemons, than our saints. Daemons will tell you how to do things that you would never think of, saints will tell you how to do things the way that should come natural to us all. So, don't you dare idolize Vile Bill, he was killing machine and alma mater how nice of guy he may have seemed to you, he would have killed you for money.

he may not take the job, but that would not have anything to do with him liking you. It would more have to with he facts if the could do it and get away with the money.

As for the idea it is to late to change the world for the better. In away it is, but you can make the world a better place for at least a few people. You will not save the world. you can't, but no one is asking you to.

Lastly if everyone only looked out for themselves, the world would be hell.

[Preston]

Project Utopia is not the police. I hope more people can really begin to grasp that concept, as well as the penalty we pay for fawning off our problems and responsibilities on whomever claims they will take care of us.

We were taken care of, all right.

I am still in Ibizia, investigation the scene for the Spanish government. There is still much work to be done before more is known about what transpired here.

[Tesseract]

A question if you don't mind Mr. Preston, to satisfy my curiosity. Are you postcognative as well as precognative?

[Preston]

I can examine multiple future possibilities as well as what has transpired.

[Sakurako Hino]

Vanguard, why do you think he told me to get out of the business? Why you think he gave me the advice he did? I honestly think he didn't want me to become like him.

So, in a way I learned from a demon. I learned from his fall.

[Vox Via]

Miss Hino, if you were to go down the path of Elite you would never become Vile bill. You would be in a coffin.

But that is not the point. The point is, you should not idolize all that you learn from. You should not look fondly on the dead, because of them being dead. You should look back at people and reflect on how they lived. Vile Bill made a living on killing others. Do you really think he should be honored because he was killed himself?

[Long]

Vanguard not all Elites are the monsters you seem to think they are. Yes they fight for money, yes they kill for money. I realize that seems apalling, but it is no more than most nations ask of their soldiers. They are trained to fight, to defeat, to kill their opponent. Elites by virtue of their gifts are simply paid more. I have seen an Elite take out scores of tanks in a single battle without a scratch or friendly casualty. I know of no army on Earth that can post the sheer effectiveness of that Elite.

[Vox Via]

You greatly underestate the US army, and over romanticize your life path. I know some elites are moral, Vile bill wasn't one of them. I know some elites are worthy of praise in their own way. Again Vile Bill wasn't on of them.

You also say that because they are just soldiers they should not be judged harshly. You forget that unlike them most soldiers are in armies because they have to. They have no other way to live. A nova can be rich for just living. I could be rich just by signing endorsement deals. I wouldn't have to lift a finger. So instead of having an easy life, you go out and kill people. so, let me be the first to say, your kind are not teachers worth praising.

[Timeslip]

Vanguard, I can say only this: you do not know Long.

[Neil Preston]

Vanguard, did you ever meet Vile Bill? Did you ever hang out with any of his friends?

I sincerely doubt it. Don't use his corpse to validate your pet theories. Vile Bill was a complex man and he did some really horrible shit in his short life. He also was kind, honorable, considerate, compassionate, and loyal.

I know he didn't do what he did for me to help me out. He did it to get a slap in at my father. Still, I decided to get to know more about the man and I have spent time with those who called him friend.

Yes, he could be violent and brutal. It was his chosen lifestyle. He was also much, much more.

You ran off into space, Vanguard. Vile Bill stayed here and lived his life by his own rules. Don't disrespect him for having more courage than you showed.

[Long]

Vanguard what of novas who only have the power to destroy, to fight? There is little in this world except the occupation of Elite that they can do. You say I underestimate the US Army, but I know I don't. You say I romanticize my former path.. Then why did I give it up? Maybe because like a good number of Elites I grew tired of fighting my own kind, because in the end nobody ever really surrendered, because battles were fought until one side won. Have you ever fought in major combat? You say Elites are not praiseworthy teachers. There are two great Teachers in this world, Life, and war. Elites have learned their lessons from both.

[Vox Via]

Long, there is no nova that I have ever seen that only erupted with the abilities for combat, and nothing else. You are a human torch, go work at mine, a fire fighting program. You are only good at hand to hand combat, go on the road and dance. You tell me of one nova who can only was only given the abilities to fight, and I will show you a nova who either hasn't thought what his powers really can do, or has too large of an ego. Me, let's just say that the things i have done with my abilities wel they are not what many oters have done.

War and life you say are the greatest teachers? If you say that, then Elites can't teach the world they have learned, because you are saying that one must go to war to learn from it. In fact if you truly think war is a great teacher elates are stopping from many from learning. wars are now smaller and less people fight, because of them.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Alchemist:Dr. Troll: The parts of human nature driving humanity into conflict with Utopia are not the darkest parts of them. In fact many would considder them the brightest elements.

Their drive for freedom and individuality. Their fear and hatred of oppressors. Their need to make a mark on the world around them. These are the innate qualities of humanity that are driving them against Utopia (in all senses of the word).

I didn't see these "brightest elements" at work in the riot, nor was it my impression they were the cause. Ditto 'hatred of oppressors'.

'Need to make a mark on the world' might have been at work but that seemed to go away after they sobered up. Granted, my views were formed by the news from CNN & N!, but I doubt being there would have shown me different.


Preston: You were there a head of time, right? So you saw it coming?

[Vox Via]

Quote:

Originally posted by Neil Preston:
You ran off into space, Vanguard. Vile Bill stayed here and lived his life by his own rules. Don't disrespect him for having more courage than you showed.

Courage you say? You had no idea how liberating the place I found was. You have no idea how painful this world is compared to it is. Then again you don't care. You want your "friends" to be honored and you can't understand how I can so easily damn a man I never knew in person. then again you do it all the time.

Vile Bill may have seemed like a cool guy to his friends. Ask the families of his victims what they think? You should not only judge how good a person is based on how their good traits show. To say that Bill was a good person holds as much logic as voting for your leaders based on the idea they would someone you want to share a drink with. At the end of the day you have to ask yourself what if the people Vile Bill had killed were part of my family? Neil, would you still have a drink with him,if he killed your father?

[Vox Via]

I didn't see these "brightest elements" at work in the riot, nor was it my impression they were the cause. Ditto 'hatred of oppressors'.

Preston: You were there a head of time, right? So you saw it coming?

Troll, humans often do the greatest when the world is at it's worst. This is not to say those time are good, needed or wanted, but when backed into a corner people will do things that they thought of as being impossible.

And for Preston knowing, he wasn't the only one. I had other mater to attend to.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Vanguard: Troll, humans often do the greatest when the world is at it's worst. This is not to say those time are good, needed or wanted, but when backed into a corner people will do things that they thought of as being impossible.

Agreed. But now, IMHO, you are talking about the baselines and novas working in that hospital, the field trauma center, etc.

These people were working to clean up the mess the drunken novas running amok were creating.

The people fighting T2M were those previously mentioned drunken novas (and later the Teragen).

[Preston]

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
Preston: You were there a head of time, right?

I was on the Spanish Mainland when the crisis began, but was on the island within the first hour of the Team Tomorrow raid.

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
So you saw it coming?

Yes.

[Preston]

Dr. Troll, I will release more information as it becomes available and decisions on disclosure are given, but I would point out that T2M Europe did not present a warrant when the entered the Private Business called the Amp Room.

They were not in immediate pursuit of any wanted fugitive.

T2M:E was initially attacked by the Amp Room Security, which anyone can tell you, regularly includes off-duty elites, not drunken novas. Other patrons then joined in.

Doctor Troll, I suggest you look into the motivations behind the initial raid on the Amp Room.

[DigiGeist]

Once again the UN proves it doesn't respect borders. Just wondering what they were after and why? What caused them to risk something that would cause military action (and it sort of did near the end)?

Keep in touch Preston, this is too juicy for me to ignore.

As for what I'm doing, well, keeping paranoid is what I do best.

Out.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Preston: …I would point out that T2M Europe did not present a warrant when the entered the Private Business called the Amp Room.

Meaning they were jumped the moment they entered.

Preston: They were not in immediate pursuit of any wanted fugitive.

Not sure about this. Rumor has it that’s exactly what they were doing.

Preston: T2M:E was initially attacked by the Amp Room Security, which anyone can tell you, regularly includes off-duty elites, not drunken novas.

Hello, former elite here. From personal experience I can say the Amp room is one of the few places in the world were off-duty elites can go and get drunk. And they do. Don’t know if you’ve ever tried “Amp-wells”, but the big attraction isn’t the expense, it’s that they make novas drunk. This was true when Vile Bill took me there after my first run, and to my knowledge this was still true.

So that’s “dunken novas, some of which are off-duty elites”, and Amp Room Security... and to my knowledge cameras weren't running then so it's going to be tough figuring out who tossed the first punch.

Preston: Other patrons then joined in.

You mean, “Other drunken novas joined in”.

Preston: I suggest you look into the motivations behind the initial raid on the Amp Room.

Supposedly there will be an official statement sometime soon.

[Preston]

Doctor Troll, I know what I know because I have Retrocogged the room and talked to various eye-witnesses. While my own visions are not valid testimony, theirs is. I have yet to talk to any members of T2M:E yet, as they have left the scene.

My main points are that the local constabulary was not informed that a raid was gong to happen. They had no time to prepare. They had not opportunity to contact any higher levels of government to ask for extra support. They were left to die trying to defend their jurisdiction.

The focus of the attack was Count Orzaiz and as of now still unknown individual ... who was not pursued into the Amp Room, but was there meeting with the Count. No mention of what crime the Count has been charged with has since been brought forth, nor has anyone at Project Utopia mentioned anything concerning the identity of the person he was there meeting.

The off-duty elites that initially responded were there as Amp Room security. They responded because the invaders did not present themselves as law enforcement personnel. Since they were not there to apprehend everyone on the premises, they would have been obliged to inform the owners of what they were doing. They lost the veneer of law enforcement from the very first moment. The launched flash-bang grenades after breaking in through the skylight.

For that matter, the raid was poorly thought out for the circumstances of the environment involved.

I find it hard to believe that no one at T2M thought that dropping grenades into a crowd of novas, including many known elites, would have resulted in anything but hostility.

[Sakurako Hino]

Anyone consider this scenario?

Perhaps this whole thing was orchestrated by someone just to cause this chaos? Look at what's been lobbed about in the US legislature. Of course, the knee-jerk has occurred, and so far there's no movement, but what about crazies like CoMA, or other Human-Supremist groups? What about PU? Their PR has taken a nose-dive now more than when Pax got handed a plate of humility by Mal.

So, what's the deal? Who really profited in the chaos, and who really was pulling the strings?

Alot of damned questions to be asked and very few answers.

It's good that someone has the balls to find those answers. Hopefully not too many hornet nests will be tipped over Preston's questioning.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Preston: My main points are that the local constabulary was not informed that a raid was gong to happen. … The focus of the attack was Count Orzaiz and as of now still unknown individual.

And it hasn’t occurred to you that those two facts might be connected? That the really rich and well connected local nova might have some friends on the force?

,,

Preston: They had no time to prepare. They had not opportunity to contact any higher levels of government to ask for extra support.

Same exact comment. The Count has many well known friends and the like and is on VERY good terms with the local government.

Even assuming there was time to inform the Count, sorry, I meant “time to inform local law enforcement”, I doubt it would have been a good first step towards a successful raid.

Preston:…who was not pursued into the Amp Room, but was there meeting with the Count… the raid was poorly thought out for the circumstances of the environment involved.

Yeah, the Count picked a good spot if he didn’t want to be caught without a lot of trouble. Looks like someone decided to risk it.

Preston: I find it hard to believe that no one at T2M thought that dropping grenades into a crowd of novas, including many known elites, would have resulted in anything but hostility.

I suspect it was supposed to be a “quick in and out” type of thing.

,,

Preston: No mention of what crime the Count has been charged with has since been brought forth, nor has anyone at Project Utopia mentioned anything concerning the identity of the person he was there meeting.

Lots of dead and missing people. Whatever jar the Count was caught with his fingers in can wait, even assuming the relevant witnesses didn’t get killed at ground zero.

Preston: Since they were not there to apprehend everyone on the premises, they would have been obliged to inform the owners of what they were doing.

And how long were they given to do this? Dragon and Andy have great reactions I hear. I’d guess they reacted in less than it takes to say “you are all under arrest”.

Preston: The off-duty elites that initially responded were there as Amp Room security. They responded because the invaders did not present themselves as law enforcement personnel.

T2M showed up with out their uniforms? Odd the news footage shows otherwise. How about it Preston, if a guy in a police uniform breaks down the door at a party I’m at, can I assume he’s not there lawfully and attack him if I don’t hear him ID himself over the music?

What you are doing here is parroting “social machine” IronSkin’s statement (almost word for word). Yep, it paints him in the best of lights. Big surprise there.

I suspect they just reacted. Maybe it was legal, maybe it wasn’t, maybe they thought long and hard about the social and legal ramifications of what was going on but I don’t see where they had the time. Their reactions make a lot of sense, how often does a push squad with a warrant break down the door? But they deal with rowdy novas all the time. So they reacted.

But I seriously doubt the presence or absence of a warrant had any effect on someone’s reflexive actions at nova speed.

[Ashnod]

We cannot change the past (not even Timeslip and Ashnod, not from our objective viewpoints at least), so we must work towards our best possible future.

So you say.

[Wakinyan]

You better not be able to change the past Ashnod. I would hate to think that you where lying to me last year.

[Ashnod]

I did not speak any falsehood to you, Totem.

[Wakinyan]

Good. Because otherwise I would have to write you a very disapproving letter. Or bug you about a trip.

[Vox Via]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:
We cannot change the past (not even Timeslip and Ashnod, not from our objective viewpoints at least), so we must work towards our best possible future.

So you say.

Asnod the trick he wants is not about raw power, but proof. To go back into the past to change means that to the third parties nothing really happened. Or at least nothing like time travel.

The people do not care how many butterflies wing flapings stop hurricanes because to them there never was a threat.

[Sakurako Hino]

Thing you have to consider, is perhaps the event that was supposed to happen has already occurred, therefore the effort to change the past will fail because it is supposed to happen. Sort of like Temporal Paradox, but instead of killing your grandfather to prevent your birth, somehow your actions cause your grandfather to meet your grandmother and... well... time rolls on and you're one flustered time traveller.

Please, let's not start toying with the time-space continuum by finding which events we judge as needing to be changed.

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sakurako Endeavor Hino:
Thing you have to consider, is perhaps the event that was supposed to happen has already occurred, therefore the effort to change the past will fail because it is supposed to happen. Sort of like Temporal Paradox, but instead of killing your grandfather to prevent your birth, somehow your actions cause your grandfather to meet your grandmother and... well... time rolls on and you're one flustered time traveller.

Please, let's not start toying with the time-space continuum by finding which events we judge as needing to be changed.

Best not to debate temporal paradox with those who can influence time, Sakura-chan.

[Sakurako Hino]

Why, because you might actually try?

That does scare me, Ashnod.

I'm sorry, but that sort of direction I personally refuse to go. You can do what you want, but just keep my words in mind. Time Hacking = Bad.

It's far easier to show some wisdom and try to create a tomorrow you can at least live in. And maybe do something that's actually good on the side in return.

I find that sort of mind set far easier than worrying about temporal dynamics.

[Ashnod]

Hmm. Fascinating. I speak of the inexperienced debating the experienced, and you move into a meaningless cautionary warning, and a feel-good piece of optimism.

If you have never hacked time, how can you know if it is bad? Am I to simply trust your impressive knowledge of science-fiction on the matter?

I had so enjoyed your recent progress until now, Sakura-chan.

[Timeslip]

Endeavor, it's...hard to explain. When you can dip your hand into the timestream and create ripples and eddies, it is very much like having an entirely separate sense. The situation is almost like a blind person trying to discuss the aesthetics of a Monet: while the sighted person can discuss the painting from a first-hand perspective, the blind person can -- at best -- discuss the matter based on second-hand accounts of something that he or she can never truly experience.

I don't mean this as an insult, Endeavor; I'm just trying to explain why Ashnod was somewhat put off by your efforts.

That said, my recent experiences, and the theories that both lead up to them and have been largely corraborated by them, indicate to me that while literal travel to the past is possible -- though outside of the current grasp of all but a tiny handful of the most powerful Novas -- changing something in said past would not effect change on our subjective present. It would, rather, simply create another temporal stream, with the change reflected within it as "the way things have always been" by the subjective standards of the inhabitants of that timestream.

Long story short: we can theoretically change the past, but not in any way that would affect our present.