opnet [OpNet] Seeking The Gate

[Xeno]

It has recently been suggested that Nova-Hood may obviate sentience. What evolutionary capabilities trump direct, fundamental reality adjustment? Very few, it is thought. Indeed, it may come that self-awareness and empathy would pose a survival risk in the face of those willing to offensively deploy reality-manipulation immediately and without significant forethought. Some seem to be actively promoting such reversion. (Pleasing, Emotionally Sensitive Terats: The preceding statement is not directed generally at your philosophical block.)

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Sentience and Quantum Power are, of course, preferable in conjunction with one another (probably). However, the eventual subsumtion of the former by the latter is estimated to be a tangible, if distant, possibility. This is axiomatically accepted as unacceptable.

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Has Quantum-Sentience yet been achieved? This is unknown, though considered doubtful. The nature of the state is possibly incomprehensible at this level. Nevertheless, it seems that such a fusion of elements would be required to provide security against degradation from fairly powerful mind-things, to very powerful meat-things. Such a change of state is also axiomatically accepted as unacceptable.

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Activities based solely on Hope/Faith are not generally endorsed. Axioms accepted without full logical justification are disdained, but tentatively accepted in this matter. If there is any relevant purpose to being a Nova, it is hopefully not making reality a sandbox (is this metaphor adequate?). It is finding the Gate. It is going further outside. There is no strictly logical sub-basis for this way of thinking. It can only be followed as an axiom.

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Meat things are not disdained. The meat supports the mind which pursues the purpose.

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Is anyone else seeking the Gate? There is a concern: It seems an obvious and fundamental pursuit. If no one else sees it so... it may be that the axiom is merely the result of detrimental cognitive divergence. That would be imminently distressing.

[Walker]

An excellent post Xeno, not one word of which I understood. Just kidding there. Further note - humour being attempted in the proceeding statement(s) I am not making a reference to giving birth.

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The first bit depends on how you define 'offensively deploy reality-manipulation immediately and without significant forethought' Exactly which bit of reality did you mean?

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So you don't want to lose your mental faculties? I'm sure there are always ways of maintaining your mental faculties.

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I have no idea if this has been achieved but I did once meet some Nova who could create small constructions made out of static electricity. As far as my understanding of current quantum theory goes - these creatures are quantum entities of some description and they were able to act independently. The idea of a quantum sentience/being is an interesting one though.

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There may well be a gate outside of this reality. And may I compliment you on your more than adequate metaphor. Have you been taking Metaphorazine? (proceeding statement is a joke, perhaps.)

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Speaking of meat things have you considered the aquisition of a colony of eufiber? It might serve as an adequate protective covering. Again the perhaps bit applies.

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Did you mean a way out of the physical universe?

The seeking of a gate beyond reality is perhaps not dissimilar to treating the world as a sandbox. Or perhaps it may be possible to create another reality or universe in the long term, Novas have been likened to gods after all. The task of seeking this gate is probably - all things being equal - a good task.

[kestrel404]

Xeno: I'll try to address your questions, but I'm not sure I fully understand them.

Quantum manipulation without sentience may be possible, but it may not. It takes far more neural activity to activate and control the M-R node than is commonly thought. Virtually every part of the brain except the cerebral cortex (the left and right brain, basically the seat of consciousness) is directly involved in manipulating the node, and the cerebral cortex directs the rest of the processing.

I considder it highly probable that reality manipulation would not be possible without the complexity and capacity of the human brain. This does not make it impossible for reality manipulation to evolve independantly, or for novas to lose sentience now that we've evolved the 'evolutionarily superior' ability of reality manipulation, however I considder both scenarios to be exceedingly unlikely.

By Quantum-Sentience, do you mean the quantum layer of reality attaining sentience, or do you mean a form of sentience that relies solely on the manipulation of quantum? If the latter is the case, there are several instances of novas that have 'lost' their bodies permanently but still persist in either an energy or psychic form. These novas could be considdered a form of 'Quamtum-sentience'.

Your referrence to a 'Gate' is interesting. You are perhaps searching for an escape from reality itself? Or an escape from this universe?

I'm not looking for either, as of yet. I think it is far more important to get a complete understanding of this reality before moving on to another. With a few sets for refference, an overall pattern would hopefully emerge that would give an understanding of the over-arching scheme of things.

Oh, and to answer your initial question, the only evolutionary advantage that would trump reality alteration (omnipotence) would be reality awareness (omniscience).

Omniscience trumps Omnipotence? Certainly. If you know everything, you know how to kill your opponent and you know when he's going to come after you. So you can always get him before he gets you. Definitely superior, evolutionarily speaking.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Alchemist:
Omniscience trumps Omnipotence? Certainly. If you know everything, you know how to kill your opponent and you know when he's going to come after you. So you can always get him before he gets you. Definitely superior, evolutionarily speaking.

Being able to see it coming isn't the same thing as being able to do something about it. But I suspect Omnipotence is pretty much a dead end. If you can do anything, why would you do anything?

[Xeno]

Your collective input is greatly appreciated. Clarification will now take place.

Quantum consciousness, as expressed here, does not mean merely separating thought processes from meat (though that may be a step in the right direction). Instead, consider an analogy with quantum fueled strength or intelligence. There is no knowledge of a comparably significant quantum-fueled boost in fundamental awareness. It seems the nature of sentience that a higher/stronger level thereof than that which is possessed must be difficult to comprehend. That does not preclude seeking it out. But, so long as Nova minds are shaped by meat and chemicals designed for meat/chemical activities... the pursuit is not expected to be highly productive.

The Gate sought is not from this place to another place like this one. The analogy is larvae in a pool. There might be some interest in seeking out a new/bigger/better pool, or improving the pool in which one resides, or creating a new pool. However, the ultimate end is leaving the pool. It is not known what might be Outside, or how to reach it. However, it must be. Its nonexistence is unthinkable.

Is no one else concerned/terrified at the prospect of being trapped? Of continually accruing basic physical/tangible potential that vastly outstrips the ability/venue to meaningfully apply it? Of continually exceeding the threshold of self-comprehension? Of... ... It has been suggested that expressing this level of concern is premature. This pool is still large, largely unseen and reasonably pleasant.

Other matters:

The reference to reality-manipulation in this context refers to the deployment of quantum powers, in general. Perhaps a more complete, innate understanding of how this is accomplished would be a component of a higher level? (Envision: understanding the process of seeing only by undertaking the act of seeing. Replace seeing with teleporting. Optional exercise: replace seeing with thinking.)

Eufiber has the potential to be useful, but its pursuit is not a priority. There is some concern that it might accidentally be brought Inside (where it would be interesting, but less useful). Expense and personal interaction involved in its acquisition has precluded further investigation. ... Also, oil drums are prolific and sometimes adequate.

It is sincerely hoped that Omniscience is strictly hypothetical. If one can be aware of all events, it strongly implies fundamental pre-determinism which, while not impossible, would be considered... unfortunate. Full Omnipotence seems to entail significant paradoxes. The nature of maximal potential omnipotence is (probably, presently) outside the scope of this exchange.

[kestrel404]

A wonderfully explorative topic, Xeno. I'll add my thoughts here.

"There is no knowledge of a comparably significant quantum-fueled boost in fundamental awareness. "

There are all kinds of expanded consciousness for novas. Those that expand logical reasoning, intuitive understanding, all forms of perception, critical thought processes, speed of decision making, entirely new forms of perception, etc.

If, by fundamental awareness, you me perception of your environment, there are several novas that have various forms of perception that are entirely independent of the 'meat' body. These novas can expand their senses (often including purely quantum based senses) to points outside of their bodies and beyond the range of their normal perception.

On the other hand, if you were using the term 'fundamental awareness' to indicate the person's ability to process the information from their perceptions and make decisions based on that information, then certain areas of that have been shown to be greatly improved upon in novas, while other areas have had no measureable increase to my knowledge.

The area of awareness that I'm thinking of is generally referred to as 'common sense'. I have yet to hear about a nova with a superior set of heuristic reasoning abilities that allow them to stay out of trouble.

"It seems the nature of sentience that a higher/stronger level thereof than that which is possessed must be difficult to comprehend."

That's an understatement. If you could comprehend a higher level of consciousness, then you would be able to emulate it and would therefore have achieved it. Really, we don't even fully comprehend our current level of consciousness. Greater forms of sentience, if they exist, would literally be beyond our ability to understand.

"The Gate sought is not from this place to another place like this one."

You are referring to alternate dimensions? Parallel universes (not the same thing, BTW)?

Both have been theorized. I believe that some such is possible, and there is a fair amount of scientific evidence (and a much larger and possibly more significant amount of anecdotal nova evidence) suggesting the existance of parallel universes. Less is known of alternate dimensions (which are pretty much parallel universes with different sets of physics). Not my field of study, but it's something I plan to look into in the future.

"However, the ultimate end is leaving the pool."

Yes, that would be what I meant by escaping from reality. A truly unique goal. I wish you luck, and hope you tell someone about your attempts before you make them. Please don't try to do this by 'drying the pool out' or otherwise removing the pool from the equation. The rest of us larvae may be quite happy living in the pool.

"Is no one else concerned/terrified at the prospect of being trapped?"

Trapped indicates a desire to leave. Thus far, most of us haven't even though to study the bars of our cage, let alone considdered what could be outside of it.

[Ramone Gemeos]

It is quite possible for us to reach higher plains of enlightenment. In fact, I see it happen all the time, to certain novas. The problem is that once you get really there, you can never come back. If only my end were so clean, I would rush to it.

As for the possibilities of escape, I am told that the wall between what is and what could have been is paper thin. You simply need to know how to travel in that direction, and it takes little more effort than teleportation. I have not yet met anyone capable of that mode of travel, but conceptually it sounds plausible.

But leaving it all behind, I've seen a nova that will do that, too. And in his going he will punch a hole in space that will never heal. Fortunately, that hole will be stable in relation to the universe, not this planet, so it won't be too damaging. He was happy to hear that, at least.

[Xeno]

Quote:

Originally posted by Alchemist:
A truly unique goal.

This is the concern. This is the crux. If the pursuit were as important and clear as had been perceived... it would not be unique.

The search will not be forsaken on this account. But caution must be taken. There may be infinite paths on this Level, but where can they lead but Outside?

The pool must be protected. Its occupants are its justification. In the absence of minds, the entirety of this place is a pointless amalgam of materials and conditions, save its potential to generate/harbor minds anew (this is a stance based on present observations, no intent to sway others is present).

No means of egress harmful to the larvae can be correct. They too must grow strong and leave the pool, when they are ready.

Another version of reality is not sought. What lies above, or behind... What lies Outside this one, and any/all others, is the question. What contains this reality? It was thought, for a time, that everything outside the Self was simply Outside. But this axiom has been revised. The Outside, it is thought, is Inside something bigger. But what? The answers lie on the path to, and beyond, The Gate.

[Walker]

Xeno, The fact that you see what you are doing as unique should not alarm you unduly, I think. Two individuals with exactly the same talents and subjected to the same set of stimuli will still have a different set of experiences and will come to different conclusions. Those differences of opinion could be quite radical even though the initial conditions are much the same. Of course in the Nova age such things as telepathy and group minds are possible but I don't think that invalidates the above argument.