opnet [OpNet] War and Extinction

[Dr. Zero]

Ive been talking to some who see a major conflict between Nova and Humankind in the future.

Im curious as to what people think of this. I do not believe that humanity has the strength to combat Novas on any kind of large scale basis.

It seems to me that if there is to be war, it will go poorly for the humans. What would they do to stop Novas as a group?

I ask this not to incite a rash of anti-baseline sentinents but to get a better understaning of what people predict and what we can do about it. (Particularly those of you who can glimpse future events)

[kestrel404]

I've given this one a lot of thought, especially recently. There are a couple of ways it could go.

Pure probability, if none of the factions change and the independants don't band together to pull in any direction, it's open warfare with novas on all sides. The end result of that is either humanity will nuke themselves into the stone age, several factions leave, or both. I give novas even odds of becoming extinct a generation after that, due to our inherent infertility.

If the Teragen can be convinced to govern its members and negotiate with baselines, it'll put off the war. If Utopia changes enough to help with the taint problem (constructively), and convinces the rest of the planet that novas are 'seperate but equal' or some such, it will also stall the conflict. Both together might lead to a balance. Maybe.

Other factors can change the equation, but those are the bold strokes I can be pretty sure of. Preston's probably got a lot more detail than I do.

[Sakurako Hino]

I doubt Preston can stretch out more than a year at best. The future is that mutable.

As for our fate, well my calculations at one time or another when I look through the mirror darkly, sometimes reads we're screwed. Other times the picture is a little more rosy, but still ugly.

Untill we A; come to terms with our human neighbors, B; Have a genocidal war, or C; Agree to disagree and go out seperate ways, We all will be in conflict. Both within, and without, trying to figure some way to deal with the other side.

*shrugs* I don't think I have a solid answer, and I doubt God/Nature/Father Time/Reality will allow me to get a genuine answer.

[Xeno]

Are there no Nova groups/movements happily in favor of leaving the sweet larvae to their incubator? ... So to speak.

Larvae do not eject adults from the hive... the adults exit of their own accord to seek other things. This does not seem unreasonable.

It is suspected that neither Earth, nor any one area similarly small and delicate, can easily tolerate very many Novas... so long as Novas are mostly like Baselines and are mostly not seeking to improve themselves in the most critical regards. Perhaps staying is not in the best interest of so many?

Diaspora in conjunction with the present metamorphosis seems apt. Not for everyone, likely, but for more than none, surely. It would be nice if earth were not consumed, but some (enough) should be elsewhere, with data and resources relevant to the propagation of society, before that becomes an issue... perhaps?

[Edward]

I would hate to see a war like that happen. That would be terrible. Why would we fight? There is only one world and we all share it.

[Preston]

You are incorrect, Endeavor. War is the most likely outcome for us, though it remains largely in our far future (not before 2040). Yes, there are variables; too many to count, but the tendancy for their to be a war among novas here on this earth remains unchanged so far.

Changing the course of a river would be an inadequate metaphor. I imagine it as trying to change all the currents in the oceans, along with quieting the tides and altering the course of every raindrop and every stream, creek, and river. The remarkable thing is that it is possible for us to do.

Individually, we move through life, altering the course of raindrops. With effort, we can change the course of a stream. That does not reverse the direction of the Gulf Stream or make the Artic currents run hot. More than individual effort is required.

Forecasting long term events is actually easier for me than forecasting short term ones. Over time, the variables flatten themselves out. In the short term, there is such a wonderful sense of anything being possible and I see in these moments that the most can be done. I guess I always have.

[Dr. Zero]

I agree with the idea that the world may not have room for conflicting Novas as their powers grow bigger.

There are some of you who use your powers with respect for others in mind.

There are others who use your powers despite what it means to the world and, indeed, in spite of others.

Its a fragile balance. Those of us with enough power to do, more or less, whatever we want (myself included, to a certain extent) have to know restraint as much as we do evolution. If the most powerful among us squabble with continent sized grudges, no matter the reason, there wouldnt be much earth left to fight over.

That being said, besides the Protectors does anyone know of any Nova communities based on separatism? I am sure that among us we could, given time and effort, set up an extra-terran colony of sorts.

[Sakurako Hino]

Why you think I'm researching the proper equations and power sources for FTL drives?

Simply put, things may end up where we have to leave the kiddy pool (earth) and find a better swimming hole.

Right now, Earth is our home as well as the Humans. But there may be a time when we have to give our share of earth to Humanity. It was theirs first, after all.

Untill then, I try to be a good neighbor. Perhaps even a friend.

Heck, perhaps my positive attitude will hopefully rub off.

[Dr. Zero]

Endeavor, I like your attitude.

Perhaps my knowledge and ability might aid your research. I am something of a "getting from here to there" specialist in a number of ways.

[Sakurako Hino]

Hmm. I'll call you up when I get the chance.

Right now... I'm on vacation. Enjoying what was so rudely interrupted earlier. >_<

[Long]

Humanity constantly seeks ways to emulate us, to copy and in some cases improve on abilities manifested by novas. They are learing what we can do, and how to counter these abilites for a reason. Some seek to better the world's quality of life, some seek to be able to wage war on us on equal terms should it come to that. Knowing humanity's past, I must agree that one day there will be war between us. I hate to see it come down to that, but Humanity's track record speaks for itself.

[Xeno]

Quote:

Originally posted by Cull:
There is only one world and we all share it.

If there were only one world it would be tragically sad, would it not? Others should probably be located. ... Or generated. Until then, all of the eggs are in a singular, increasingly unstable basket.

[Magus]

Please let me know when your efforts towards travel are closer to fruition. I have a number of people I'd to ship out with you and will arrange for them to arrive in suitably sedated condition for transport prior to relocation to the wild.

[Dr. Zero]

Long... I hate to say it but "their" track record was until fairly recently "our" track record. None of us have been Novas for so long that we can claim that we were not once baseline and from the same culture, background and gene-pool.

Psimon, for the time being I think that the responsible thing to do is both try to prevent the worst and prepare for it at the same time. That being said, it would not hurt for us to have alternative plans but I dont want to run away from a world that will hurt if those of us who actually CAN get along with baselines are, ironically, the ones to leave.

That being said, anyone care to join me for a drink tonight at the Blackburn? First round is on me. I can pick you up.

[Magus]

I've found being adequately prepared for eventualities is often a plus in landing on one's feet. Now please forgive my presumption in the following as it assumes you'd not have deduced it, Zero.

There are forces in motion that work against efforts to establish peaceful coexistence as anything but a temporary situation. Many of these forces are the results of plans by those who in their own mind believe themselves to be moderates forced to act by an extreme situation. They are and will continue to be dangerous when they feel you're working against their goals.

Thank you for the offer but I have prior obligations. Perhaps another time.

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Zero:
None of us have been Novas for so long that we can claim that we were not once baseline and from the same culture, background and gene-pool.

By that definition, our children can make that claim immediately upon birth. Born of nova parents, into a time when novas have always walked the planet, and will be grow up with the expectation that eruption is actually quite likely rather than highly unlikely, if they are not already erupted in their early years.

We are also entering the time when many of us will have been novas longer than they were unerupted. The connection of the first generation to the human nation is growing weaker, and this will accelerate as the second generation becomes more numerous.

For a few of the first generation, it no longer has any bearing.

[Jager]

Doesn't that assume that the 2nd generation doesn't rebel against us and our values? I mean, what happens if they decide that we have been selfish, misguided gits?

[Ashnod]

That assumes the first generation is united in values to have something to rebel against.

[Magus]

There are multiple sets of ethic values with numerous variations possible as each step. It seems unlikely that nova children will limit their value sets to anything as simplistic as baseline / nova relations or allow only that to predominantly define themselves. Of much higher probability is that they have disdainful snickers for the utter seriousness the older generation treated such transient concerns. They may be polite enough to hide those expressions.

Most novas and baselines aren't capable of that but perhaps our children will be better people. Or at least more civil.

[Jager]

Ashnod, unity has not been a requirement for rebellion in the past, so why would we be different?

There is a whole lot of faith there, Psimon. Having failed to resolve these questions ourselves, I have a feeling they will inherit them and go through the same discussions yet again.

Things like the scale of sentience, the efforts we will go through concerning other sentient beings, and what constitutes our responsibilities, if any have been around for some time in a variety of forms. I seriously doubt we are the Omega of that discussion.

[Ashnod]

"Rebel against US and OUR values" implies unity or at least a commonality.

Rebellion on a smaller scale, individual to individual, child to parent, is expected to happen regardless.

[Jager]

Yes, but what does it mean when one rebels on a relatively equitable level? What happens when the rebellion is againts individual self-expression and personal evolution?

[Magus]

I appear to have been unclear. I will attempt to rectify.

They (our descendents) will inherit the questions, seek their own answers in the priority they place on the question not dear old grandfather's and in all likelihood will feel the same way about our efforts in finding answers that we feel regarding the 'factual report' from the 1700s that dirty laundry causes the spontaneous creation of mice from thin air.

I don't believe any nova today even begins to fathom the manner in which the quantum born will perceive the universe yet we're going to sit here and decide what their philosophies would or should be? In probability our children or their children will understand the underlying mechanics of Walker discussing sonnets with spiders or the taint and if we're extremely lucky they will revere their ancestors sufficiently so as not to feel inclined to treat us as the retarded imbeciles we will eventually appear to be from their point of view.

In the main, the problem with even discussing this is that those children will not be human as we understand the concept though for them all will appear as it should be. There is no philosophy to account for this. Utopia? Babes lost in the woods and enough aware of that fact to be grateful that children are a distant issue. Teragen? Children playing at games of monsters and myths in hopes that through random chance they might attain what the quantum born will have from birth. And perhaps one of them will achieve it but even if so fortunate they'll never be able to communicate what they've come to understand. The average nova honestly believes, if they care to consider the matter at all, that they could understand anything given time and inclination but probability is otherwise.

It is not a case of understanding your fellows or the mind and nature of a lesser creature. It is a case of being a lesser creature somehow certain against all evidence to the contrary that it is possible that they understand the mind of a man. Jones could provide the correct terms far more eloquently but we in all our blustering ego and quantum glory will be nothing more than the bridge leading from baseline to their existence.

[Jager]

The assumption being that our children will somehow have greater insight than we do?

Okay, that possibility does exist, but I hardly see it as a certain thing. We don't understand enough of the nature of our own existence, what effects our lives previous to becoming novas do have upon us, and what effects of being able to naturally manipulate quantum (if that is even what happens) will have on development.

What if our children find manipulating no easier, or harder, than we do?

What if they are more susceptible to taint and taint-related effects?

[Magus]

What if the polarity of gravity should reverse itself at 1201 pm tomorrow?

There is actually quite a large body of evidence from a variety of sources. More appears as quickly as certain parties make effort to remove it. Efforts that are of dubious value as they never think to expunge the information until after some clever fellow begins to draw conclusions and entertain experiment protocols. Are there assumptions involved in my statements? Of course but the assumptions are tentatively accepted only after careful analysis of data and cross referencing.

You appear to be a man looking for exceptions rather than conclusions. In any event perhaps Preston or one like him will be inclined to settle the matter to your satisfaction. He recently explained that looking far ahead is significantly less affected by deviation than short term prognostication. Should he or one like him be so inclined to do this for you it would not be surprising if his report were highly accurate observations accompanied by stark inability to explain what he sees in meaningful terms. There is only one road to truly understanding the future and quantum does not change that.

Take heart however. As a man may with inclination and effort may come to understand the mind of a lesser creature so too will our children have the capability to understand us and our baseline forebears should they choose.

We are only the forerunners.

[Jager]

Well Psimon, dish.

What is this large body of evidence from a variety of sources?

I am not looking for exceptions, but rather witnessing hopeful thinking based on limited observations over a limited scope of time. I am definitely interested in gaining more information on the subject.

If you can't access the information right now, could you answer some questions for us?

1) Does the parentage matter? Is the child notably different if one parent is baseline? Could the child be born baseline?

2) How often is the child born erupted?

3) Do the children show an enhanced ability to manipulate quantum, or, if they are unerupted, are the quantum sensetive?

4) Do children share traits from their nova parents? For instance, would the child of a "smart" nova have enhanced intelligence themselves?

5) Are aberrations inherited?

6) Does the amount of taint the parent(s) have effect the child? If so, how?

[Magus]

This large body of information is the data gathered on nova physiology, geneology and genetics while the evidence is the forensics data from deceased novas, the psychologic data gathered to support treatment from two nova only treatment facilities and the work of two parapsychologists, one of whom did his best work before it became customary for the word 'para' to preface work done in regards to novas, and one paraphysician. One of those parapsychologist even anticipated the symptomatology of 'the taint' before the first cases entered public awareness although of course he didn't call it that. Scientific investigation is rarely sexy to laymen but it is quite fulfilling nonetheless.

Hope is well and good but comes after the inquiry not before. After the data has been gathered and properly analyzed the results become known. These results in some this will engender a sense of hope while others experience despair. In both cases the emotional context has nothing to do with the data itself but rather the individual's interpretation of the data as it relates to their views.

I should exercise caution should you choose to follow up on the work of the parapsychologists. Obtaining that data was costly. More than worth the effort but quite costly.

[kestrel404]

Psimon: So where's the link to nova born children?

[Magus]

Still in the research package. He asked for the data on nova children in the event I couldn't access the other data.

Most likely imprecision on his part perhaps but such things often occur when dealing with non-scientists in the context of scientific research project.

I'm sure you've run into it before.

[Preston]

We diverge as a people. There is no single destiny for our offspring. There are those who are too hard to describe with this limited medium as they will transcend reality as we know it. We will also give birth to monsters who think they are nothing more than monsters.

This was a very difficult vision for me and not recent. I do not wish to go back there for some time as I would like to hold out the possibility that I will sleep soundly once again.

[kestrel404]

Preston: I'd argue that terminology. We're a species, not a people. 'A people' in that sense indicates common ground. Our only common ground other than our humanity (which we all seem to be moving away from) is our ability to manipulate reality. That's much like saying being made of matter is common ground (and that's not actually true for all of us anyway).

Psimon: Some of our children may be as insightful as you are saying. But just as there are Mozarts and janitors within the same generation of humanity, there will be Divis Mals and near-baselines born to novas.

Thus far all the research I've looked at has solely pointed out that we are nothing if not diverse.

[Magus]

You have an opinion. I understand that. The difference between us at the moment is that I am actively engaged in seeking answers rather than elaborating on an opinion.

Ask yourself whether you have any reason to believe what you just conveyed to me beyond the fact that it suits you. Now, having realized the data you lack there are two options available to you as a scientist. The first is prefacing your comments with the words, 'in my opinion' knowing that it is based on nothing factual and that its unlikely to garner replies based other than on opinions as you'll be speaking predominately for and with those that have only opinions as well. The scientists and serious researchers will be gathering data and conducting analysis as should have been the case in the MIT Warp Debacle this month or the Cold Fusion Fiasco decades ago.

The second option is beginning the research to collect the data, the analysis of which will provide answers. Should you choose the second options we'll likely have further opportunities to meet along the way and discuss observations even if we don't share data. Should that opportunity arise please remember that I am uninterested in using scientific data to support social agendas. This is true whether the agenda is proving baseline equality or nova superiority. I will let the facts speak and the politician will do as they wish anyway.

Near baseline? Please. Only if their lives are as ridiculous as the ones we lead. Elite rankings, cartoons, toys, eateries, television dramas? If we're lucky they'll have empathy for the absurdity of our situation and therefore some respect for us. Otherwise its likely we'll all be seen as idiots. I point to your example of superiority, Divis Mal, as proof of ridiculous posturing. Despite that, Pax wasn't defeated by power rather a superior understanding of the underlying principles of quantum mechanics. Were he not so enamoured of the bigger stick paradigm he'd have realized he was attempting to defeat the wind with the utopian equalvalent of incantations and mystic gestures.

I do not pity fools. I sometimes sympathise with them.

[kestrel404]

Psimon: Data collection can only begin when there is data to collect. Of the half dozen publicly aknowledged children of novas, more than half are terats and uninterested in furthering public (to baselines) research, and the exception (Anna DeVries' child) leads a very private life over which much is speculated (just pick up yesterday's Inquirer), but very little is really known.

In other words, conjecture is all there is, for now.

[Jager]

My experience, data, and analysis leads me to believe we exist in a period of quantum instability, were in novas are an experiment and not natural evolution. Essentially, our environment has been altered so that eruptions are possible and the drawbacks are rather limited. I also have strong evidence that this artificial condition will fade over time and the results will be that manipulating quantum will have greater consequences and costs.

Beyond that, information is useful, thus sought out. Being sexy, or not sexy, is of no relevance. Accuracy of data is paramount, though analysis is less necessary.

Alchemist, we can talk about this off-line if you like. I get the feeling no actual data is going to be thrown up here.

[Magus]

Alchemist;

It appears to me that you have other avenues to uncover and perhaps even create. As I said, we may meet along the way should you decide to pursue the research.

Oh look. Here's some data now from your partner Jager to further your efforts. A shame he didn't share this insight in person or perhaps on camera. How fortunate he happened to think of it here.

I joke of course and apologise if either of you took it to heart. Its simply that this is a variation of the same theory that a crackpot used to explain the disappearance of all physical evidence that a technologically advanced civilization (Atlantis) once existed.

Very humorous of you Jager.

[Jager]

(looks left)

(looks right)

*psss ... Alchemist, I think Psimon is onto our conspiracy*

Psimon, you mean you can't track quantum variations over time, or is it you haven't been looking in that direction? The scientific study of the environmental causes of genetic variations is well established. That thousands of novas have erupted on every continent over the past 17 years is an investigative phenomena you might want to look into.

I live for humor.

[Magus]

Its actually a very amusing jest when seen in the proper light.

As you implied there are sufficient researchers looking into that already. Since they can't decide what is the 'proper' quantum level that avenue is unlikely to bear fruit for the foreseeable future.

[Jager]

Yep. I personally like the TimeTraveling Atlantian Ghost angle ... but doesn't that make the Michaelites sorta right?

Oh, and I've gotta show you the journal written by the guy who thought he was an intelligent gorilla. Its a hoot, with a self-contained, yet elaborate, delusion.

[Magus]

I once consulted on a case where the subject insisted there was a primitive civilization existing beneath the surface of the Earth. He had an extensive repertoire of characters he'd 'met' and a startlingly rational, albeit unique, ecostructure envisioned. The imagination is truly an amazing thing.

Now that we seem to have passed the point of tit for tat can proceed with the current topic?

[Dr. Zero]

I think we spend a great deal of time looking at "Novas" and "Humans" as two separate and/or unified groups.

Arent we, as Novas, as different in a myriad of ways from each other as we are from any Baseline? I may be a Nova but I am, without a doubt, as unlike any of you in too many ways to count as I am from Joe Average Baseline.

I only bring this up because the "us and them" subject was broached by myself and I see people making alot of conjectures based on macrocosms... but since each of us are an effective x-factor in words and deed to any given situation, moreso as our powers grow, wouldnt that make it impossible to paint pictures of the future of our collective (baseline and nova) relations, psychology and future with such broad strokes?