Mutants & Masterminds - [M&M 3E] Taint, Chrysalis and Aberrations

[Joani]

Ok - the premise:

I'm looking for a way to translate Taint, Chrysalis (if at all) and Aberrations into 3E. Basically the idea is to run an Aberrant setting Game with M&M 3E rules but I want to catch the "feel" of Aberrant.

I understand that stuff like Aberrations are mostly cosmetic and will probably dealt with the use of the Complications system of 3E. But what about Taint?

The gradual descent into inhumanity should have a strong effect and the struggle to fight for your humanity should be a theme of the game since it also builds the foundation of one of the major factions.

I like to hear ideas, options and comments how to adapt those mechanics into 3E one way or the other. Thanks for participating.

[Dawn OOC]

I'd just roll Taint into aberrations and let Complications cover both. For example:

Complication: Aberration (Low, Taint 4) - Steel Teeth

[Jeremy]

Here's an odd idea or two for permanent Taint:

#1: Apply Taint as a negative sort of Weaken Attribute (Broad: Social Traits), and another for the Will Save, all Limited to the appropriate circumstances, as in not weakening Intimidation for the social stuff.

#2: Like above, only applied in the right circumstances, but a flat penalty to Presence checks and Will checks, amped up each level (like a negative Feat). Once you reach X levels of this feat... buh-bye character.

[Dawn OOC]

Well, flaws to powers where appropriate is good for simulating taint. Though now that I think about it, Aberrations could be powers that could be granted by the ST for free if you take certain levels of Complications to reflect the social stigmia of taint.

As an example: you want to have three "aberrations". You buy two complications: Slight Taint and Moderate Taint. The first gives you a disadvantage with baselines; the moderate gives you more difficulty. Taint becomes an RP thing, not a numbers thing. The ST in turn gives you one-1 rank power and one-2 rank power. These are aberrations - which can beneficial in the right circumstance but are largely inconvenient and a sign you're going bonkers.

I personally like Taint as a RP mechanism instead of a hardcore numbers system. Taint's effect was aberrations and social penalities, so I think that'd work.

[Caninicus]

Would you model Quantum through power level or just drop it entirely? And would powers be bought at half price by accumulating taint feats?

[jameson (ST)]

Quantum

I wouldn't bother with this. M&M just doesn't work this way. Quantum was not just an intrinsic measuring stick of power but it also was power, almost every effect in Abby gained dice or sux from Quantum. There's nothing in M&M that could work for this, I say dump it as a mechanic outright and leave it as fluff if you like.

Taint

Again, I say you toss the mechanical aspects right out the window. Taint was a mechanical carrot to convince players to follow the fluffy stick. The thing is it just brought itself to be abused. Toss it out I say and let the concept of high or low taint be governed by aberrations...

Aberrations

Speaking of which ... Dawn hit it on the head here. Aberrations are really just an RP thing. The negative social, mental, and physical aspects should be played out by way of RP and the use of complications. A character with lots of charm (Presence) need not suffer social penalties in M&M depending on the complications they obtain they may suffer mentally or physically, allowing the player to dictate how the character loses his humanity.

M&M tends toward rewarding the player for how he plays his weaknesses, his quirks, his attitude; basically Hero Points are the reward for using your complications, not additional power up front like Aberrant does. M&M is already a game that can be abused by min/max if a GM isn't careful, there's no reason to attract it even more with rewards of even more PPs at chargen.

[Joani]

Originally Posted By: jameson (ST)

Quantum
I wouldn't bother with this. M&M just doesn't work this way. Quantum was not just an intrinsic measuring stick of power but it also was power, almost every effect in Abby gained dice or sux from Quantum. There's nothing in M&M that could work for this, I say dump it as a mechanic outright and leave it as fluff if you like.

My idea was making use of PLs to reflect Quantum in one way or another. I was planning to have a range between PL7 to PL12 which would represent Quantum 1 to a max of 6. PCs would comfortably start at PL7 with the option to start at a higher PL in return for more Aberrations/Complications. PP Max would be the same for all – 150 PP (which would equal a standard PL10 Character).

PLs 11 and 12 would not be available at game start, those could be achieved later on, preferably through a nice told story that reflects the development of the Character.

Originally Posted By: jameson (ST)

Taint
Again, I say you toss the mechanical aspects right out the window. Taint was a mechanical carrot to convince players to follow the fluffy stick. The thing is it just brought itself to be abused. Toss it out I say and let the concept of high or low taint be governed by aberrations...


Aberrations
Speaking of which ... Dawn hit it on the head here. Aberrations are really just an RP thing. The negative social, mental, and physical aspects should be played out by way of RP and the use of complications. A character with lots of charm (Presence) need not suffer social penalties in M&M depending on the complications they obtain they may suffer mentally or physically, allowing the player to dictate how the character loses his humanity.

M&M tends toward rewarding the player for how he plays his weaknesses, his quirks, his attitude; basically Hero Points are the reward for using your complications, not additional power up front like Aberrant does. M&M is already a game that can be abused by min/max if a GM isn't careful, there's no reason to attract it even more with rewards of even more PPs at chargen.

I agree with both but having some kind of ´guideline´ or a ´list´ that could be referred to would be nice. Alternatively I could approve each Aberration individually and try to find a balance (just to make sure people with similar Aberration suffer similar penalties/complications) and hopefully get major consent by the players.

For example – once a PC has 6 Aberrations/Complications (caused by Aberrations) he succumbs to taint and becomes effectively an NPC – is that too low or too high? And since I brought up Chrysalis – what would be a reasonable way to have someone reduce his taint and effectively lose an Aberration (and thus prevent becoming an NPC eventually)?

I would ditch Chrysalis entirely under M&M and would instead work on emphasizing on the philosophical aspect of the Movement (Obviously the Teragen) and not link it to some kind of unbalanced mechanic. I guess the RP aspect is the most important part of everything, rewards will come on a different basis. I’m also open for ideas and suggestions, of course.

[jameson (ST)]

If you are going to hand out points for taint and aberrations I would strongly suggest that you make aberrations complications that do not reward Hero Points. Alternately you should find some other mechanical balance to the extra power. While Taint -should- be fair game as an RP element if one player taints up and gets 15 extra PP and is 1 PL higher than the rest he will gain a major advantage (at least in combat) that should be offset somehow. There should be as much reason to not take taint as there is to take it. Ideally the options should be balanced against each other in such a way as to make the choice merely an RP one and never a power or min/max one.

[Joani]

oh, my intention wasn't to hand out PP for Taint or Aberrations. The idea stated above was meant as an option. If someone wants to portray a PC with a gradual scale of growth he could start at PL 7 (or 8 or 9) and increase his PL over time. All PCs would get 150 PP to build their characters (regardless of chosen PL).

I would only expect from someone who wants to start at PL 10, or 9 for example, to have more Taint-derived Complications compared to someone at PL 7 or 8.

I do understand that it is highly likely that the majority will simply go for the PL 10 built (and I'm not opposed to that) but sometimes people like to start small and get big later on or over a certain span of time. Those Players can opt to start at a lower PL (to reflect recent eruption for example) and can get up to PL 10 over time "as reward" for example.

I'm not trying to impose a complicated mechanic to represent Quantum. I was just trying to explain or find some kind of comparison to Quantum and PL seemed the next best thing. I would think that a Q1 Nova is less powerful or has less potential than a Q3 Nova and the same logic can be aplied to a PL7 PC compared to a PL 10 PC.

Pointswise everyone will be the same - people can also decide to bank points and spent them later to reflect their increase in power. I would only expect that with increase in power taint will also increase - as a general rule of thumb.

[Rubio OOC]

Well, when you spent a point of willpower while maxing a power and then botched it, you got taint.

Maybe if a nova spends a hero point to boost a power and rolls a 1, they gain taint. Maybe a number of taint equal to PL and they immediately gain another PL and one or more juicy complications?

[Joani]

Originally Posted By: Rubio

Well, when you spent a point of willpower while maxing a power and then botched it, you got taint.

There's no such thing in M&M and I don't intent introducing anything like that...

...which makes your suggestion:

Originally Posted By: Rubio

Maybe if a nova spends a hero point to boost a power and rolls a 1, they gain taint. Maybe a number of taint equal to PL and they immediately gain another PL and one or more juicy complications?

unfortunately obsolete.

I've had several whispers in Chat yesterday and maybe I should clarify a few things.

I don't want to make things unnecessary complicated. M&M 3E is pretty much balanced overall and adding anything that made Aberrant unbalanced surely won't improve mechanics.

What I am trying to achieve or get a feel for is how certain values in Aberrant would translate into M&M (for those, who are not so familiar with M&M for example).

Also - some people may want to translate one of their Aberrant PCs into M&M and having something like a general guideline, something that you can refer to if you want to know lets say: "I had a Q4 Nova with 3 Aberrations / Taint 7" - "What would a reasonable translation into M&M be like?", would be nice to have

I want to keep things easy and simple and I will probably have to decide on a case-by-case basis. The different PLs are just suggestions, options for someone who wants to start with a fledgling Nova and slowly discover his potential over time. The Hardcap would be PL 10 at the very beginning and there won't be extra points for taking x amount of Complications/Aberrations. Everyone starts with the same number of PPs (150), only the PL may vary (not forced but voluntary for RP-reasons).

PL will increase very slowly (expect that PL 10 will be the Hard Cap for a while). PPs on the other, those will be rewarded regularly - this may lead to PL 10 PCs with close to 200 PPs eventually (which can be banked or spent right away, that's up to the player) - this is intentional.

Thank you so far for your feedback - keep it coming!

[Rubio OOC]

Well, yeah, I know that there's no such thing in MnM. I was just thinking of a conceptual equivalent of someone going all out and feeling the burn.

Also, in MnM3/DCUA terms maybe "Tainted Quantum" could be a variant of the Luck Advantage, only instead of "Luck Points" it grants "Taint Points". This would be selectable up to PL, but would require an Aberration/Complication for every two ranks?

Just brainstorming. I'm rather fond of the Aeonverse settings, if not the game mechanics, and am interested to see where this goes.

[jameson (ST)]

Originally Posted By: Rubio

Also, in MnM3/DCUA terms maybe "Tainted Quantum" could be a variant of the Luck Advantage, only instead of "Luck Points" it grants "Taint Points". This would be selectable up to PL, but would require an Aberration/Complication for every two ranks?

Taint is a bad thing, why would having more of it create a tangible mechanical advantage?

[Rubio OOC]

Cuz Tainted Quantum and Tainted Powers were the proverbial "just enough rope" in the original Abby system.

That would mean that those who throw themselves into the inhuman-ness of the Taint have more power to throw around, but greater levels of Taint-based aberrations.

Just seems like a relatively lightweight way of simulating the concept (ifnot the specific rules) of acquiring too much power too quickly and suffering side effects for it.

[Joani]

One of the major flaws of Aberrant was that acquiring taint at a certain point through game mechanics was nigh impossible or very very unlikely (ask the number crushers on the site, they can tell you just how small chances are to get 1 dot of temporary taint).

So basically people acquired taint during Character Creation for buying powers tainted or later on once they either reached Q5 and higher or in some rare cases later on by halving the EXP-cost (buying powers tainted with XP).

My personal experience teached me that many Players designed their characters with Mastery and Q6 in mind and thus made sure that their PCs would never hit that T10 hardcap. Powermaxing or any other mechanic that had the chance of giving you temporary taint would be avoided entirely or used when the chance of actually acquiring temp. taint was almost nil. It's an illusion, the whole concept and mechanic behind Taint is broken. Getting rid of it entirely is probably the best idea of all. At least as a mechanic.

Taint can still be "used" in M&M, but instead of making it a mechanic, I very much agreed with Jameson's and Dawn's suggestions. Make it more an element of Roleplaying and that is what I'm going to do.

[Rubio OOC]

Fair enough.

Oh, and as for why you'd want a mechanical advantage, what I didn't mention as part of my thought process was that, in addition to oodles of Complications, after a certain level of accumulated Taint, the character becomes an NPC

[Joani]

That's a technical issue mostly in my eyes. I have yet to see a game where that ever happened and back then in the days I really really tried to push my Players to acquire taint and eventually lose themselves but it never happened - unless I would've intervened with some GM fiat by tainting them with some kind of overload mechanic as a "weapon" or even an enemy Nova who could transfer taint...

I prefer handling this completely on a roleplaying level. If someone goes taintmonkey he will eventually lose control over his actions. I think it'd be an interesting thing to see the descent and loss of someones humanity in-game. At some points I would intervene as GM, make some of your actions even worse than you originally intended, kill someone you planned to spare - small slips of control that you as player wouldn't be aware of in-game at first (OOCly it's of course impossible to hide) since your perception is skewed and afterwards, when you get a moment of lucidity you realize what you've done.

That's just an example, btw.

[jameson (ST)]

I approve of the aforementioned statements.

[Stargaizer]

Taint, from my perspective, is mainly about finding a balance. From the player perspective it's about power vs. inhumanity, and finding the balance that is right for that character. From the character perspective, it's about fast development vs. inhumanity or gaining power quickly (through increasing the strength of a power or failing quick boosts in the power).

So what is the give and take that you're proposing? If I read correctly it's basically that more taint raises the PL but not the PP's? It doesn't really seem to make the threat of permanent taint worth the gain (for any but the rarest of characters).

Just my 2 cents. I do like where this is headed, sounds very interesting and intriguing, I just don't think it's quite there yet.

[Joani]

I wait till monday before I summarize and share my other thoughts about this setup, thanks again.

If you want to add your thoughts, just go ahead.

[jameson (ST)]

This may be long and a bit rambly, please bear with me ....

I think the premise of taint is mostly wrong. Not entirely wrong mind you, but I think that the mechanical design of the trait is trying to force RP behavior and reaction when that instead should simply be governed under the rule of good RP.

Taint makes you freaky, less human (arguable), and generally changes the character physically or mentally to suit the paradigm of their powers (again arguable, but IMO that is the ideal way to assign Aberrations). These things are mechanically represented via aberrations; the physical, mental, and occasionally quantum changes to your character. As far as that went it mostly worked well (some abuse of aberrations like permanency aside).

Where taint fell apart for me (I use the past tense here as I haven't played with the Aberrant system in quite a while) was the enforcement social penalties. Here's the thing of it: Why? Social penalties (or bonuses!) should be something the GM/ST/Whatever assigned based on the situation at that moment and the perception of the Nova/Aberrant by the other person. An evangelical bible thumper who perceives a nova clad in a gold aura, with white wings, and bearing "holy fire" may well grant that nova a significant bonus to his rolls when dealing with the man. On the flip side his appearance is likely to have no impression upon an Atheist (or possibly a negative one if they are debating religion). A person who's flesh is barbed, pieced, and marked with brands and tattoos (nova or otherwise, let's face it there are people out there now that look like they aren't entirely human anymore), is likely to suffer severe penalties while in a corporate boardroom, but main gain bonuses while at a fetish club.

Rather than hardwire these penalties in just as a matter of course, the player and the GM should be able to discuss upon the effects of the character's aberrations and assign penalties or bonuses properly according to the situation.

How does this ties to Mutants & Masterminds? By making aberrations complications the player and the GM are given that freedom. If handled as a normal complication an aberration would never generate any serious bonus, but when the character encountered and used them in role-play the player is awarded with Hero Points when they prove negative. Yes the gimp/BDSM slave looking Nova is going to have an uphill climb when holding a corporate meeting in a boardroom, but they gain a HP in doing so. Rather than receive additional points up front for their taint, and then see players try to do their best to avoid the enforced penalty, the system instead rewards players who take taint and aberrations by giving them Hero Points (in game mechanical rewards) for situations where their aberrations prove a hurdle to cross.

To put it another way: We don't reward people ahead of time, we reward them after the fact. The waiter or waitress is given a tip at the end of the meal based on their service, not before the meal to encourage good service (or head off bad). Why should one do any different in a role playing game? This is why aberrations as complications make more sense than aberrations as PP rewards; it makes the aberration and active role playing item, the trait or behavior that rewards the player for triggering it, not rewarding them for taking it and then doing their best to avoid it.

[jameson (ST)]

Addendum:

After a length argument/debate/discussion in chat I feel I should clarify this point.

I am not of the opinion that that taint itself is "bad". That is, regardless of the changes that a nova goes through they still have choices to make. Yes, mental aberrations can influence behavior but they are not the end all be all. A heavily tainted nova could continue to choose to treat humans in a respectful manner just as he could choose to swat them like flies.

Your personal stance on taint, and how you want it to influence the game may make a difference.

[Joani]

I couldn't have said it better and wholeheartedly agree.

[Anatoly]

In reply to Jameson, since we were having that discussion before I have to say that while I agree to a point, Taint isn't bad only to a certain threshold.

You see, taint *is* bad according to the game system. It's a means of punishing players/characters for going over the edge, pushing past the limits or doing things too powerful, too soon.

I've seen multiple times people complain how Taint is hardly an issue, how it's easy to avoid. But once it goes too high, and you start racking up penalties, your own choice becomes slowly drowned out by the monster inside. That's why your Taint is a penalty to your Willpower rolls to resist its effects - you slowly drown in it.

Taint as mere change, and not a change into something monstrous, is a Terat belief, so in-character. It has no bearing on the game system. Every corner where you see Taint mentioned, it's listed as something bad. Your character may believe it isn't, but that's a whole different matter.

This is exacerbated by some ideas about how aberrations aren't half as bad as portrayed. This has two reasons. First, the initial ones aren't all that bad but they do get worse. Second, normally the Storyteller picks your aberrations, not the player. By not having control over them, they become something scary. In an open-world roleplay, the writers are in control, and this makes them a lot less scary.

Trying to get around an aberration is possible - if you need Human flesh, you can get a job as coroner or gravedigger I guess. But that doesn't change the fact that you are a cannibal. If you are a compulsive mind controller, you must - or at least, once your taint is high enough, you have no choice at all.

The key is, that the idea of having a choice is based around this. Once you have enough Taint you do not *have* a choice. It's taken away from you - until you lose yourself completely at Taint 10.

Remember that the Nova's perception of the world also subtly changes to match his/her mental state. So even making the right choice can, due to a messed up worldview, turn out horribly wrong.

When you say that a high-taint Nova can't be civil, that's entirely true. They can choose to be. But I imagine this more like Count Dracula inviting guests and being hospitable - just don't piss him off.

Aberrant is nowhere near a game of darkness, so I can imagine that the tone for Aberrant 200X for instance is much lighter. But I can't shake the feeling that making Taint and aberrations less than they are takes away even more from an already undermined system.

[Curtis Shane]

I'm not going to say very much, but I would like to offer these two bits: I find you two both right in some ways. Taint ultimately is bad, big-time. It's the progression downhill. But at the same time, low-level Taint can be rationalized, especially in the example of the evangelical and the 'angel.'

Besides, ultimately Taint is a mechanic that makes RP'ing all the more important. Just like Complications, and since this would use M&M... this is probably the best mechanic there is for controlling its effects.

[jameson (ST)]

Quote:

You see, taint *is* bad according to the game system. It's a means of punishing players/characters for going over the edge, pushing past the limits or doing things too powerful, too soon.

Going by the system Taint is, at best, a mechanical contrivance to offset starting with more NPs, at worst it's a plain joke. I think you meant the setting though, which does it's best to paint a pretty awful picture even though it also contradicts itself quite a bit, IMO.

Quote:

This is exacerbated by some ideas about how aberrations aren't half as bad as portrayed. This has two reasons. First, the initial ones aren't all that bad but they do get worse. Second, normally the Storyteller picks your aberrations, not the player. By not having control over them, they become something scary. In an open-world roleplay, the writers are in control, and this makes them a lot less scary.

This is a problem with the players, not the concept or the setting. Look at the people who play here currently, look at their PCs, look at how often the monstrous is showcased. Its minimal. If people don't want to play the monster freak, they aren't going to. Having an arbitrary GM figure ramming something like "Uncontrollable pseudopod pedophilia" on a player's character may be amusing but it is not good mechanics. If you want people to play the monster, reward them for doing so, don't punish them further. You catch more flies with honey, and you'll find more people willing to play character's losing their grasp on humanity and sanity if you reward them for playing thusly.

Quote:

Trying to get around an aberration is possible - if you need Human flesh, you can get a job as coroner or gravedigger I guess. But that doesn't change the fact that you are a cannibal. If you are a compulsive mind controller, you must - or at least, once your taint is high enough, you have no choice at all.

The key is, that the idea of having a choice is based around this. Once you have enough Taint you do not *have* a choice. It's taken away from you - until you lose yourself completely at Taint 10.

Remember that the Nova's perception of the world also subtly changes to match his/her mental state. So even making the right choice can, due to a messed up worldview, turn out horribly wrong.

This is all Role Playing stuff. Your character fighting his urges, your grasp on what is real versus what is imagined, or perceived; these things are where mechanics needs to step away and let the player and GM play instead of being bound to a rule. Maybe the character who hungers for flesh becomes a serial killer, or maybe he doesn't. Maybe the compulsion to use telepathy results in a total breakdown of personal boundaries, or maybe it results in the greatest advocate for peace negotiations the world has seen.

Pax wanted to be what he was, right up until he found out he wasn't. When Mal proved himself more powerful Pax made a choice based on his character and his aberrations. Race for power, grab at more, prove himself superior. He chose a path that at one end seemed benign enough, but in the end drove him to become the monster. That didn't need to happen, but Pax was an insecure little twit, and so it did. As you say, the character's perceptions change to match their mental state, but that doesn't happen overnight, and it doesn't happen in a vacuum. A character who heals, does good things, and happens to accumulate a lot of taint isn't likely to start running about performing terrorist acts, serial crimes, or watching American Idol, its not in his character. Pax and Mal were asses well before they were high taint novas.

Yes, the more severe your taint, the more severe your aberrations, and yes eventually they will likely affect your world view, change your perceptions, and alter the way you act. How they do so should align with the character and how they have been played to that point as much as how they are to be played going forward. A solar nova is likely to think that everything, including baselines and other novas, is irrelevant compared to stars. That character may succumb to "taint madness" and decide to go off and be a star somewhere, or maybe go and enter the sun, or maybe, he wants to help the world and he decides to be a sun, on earth. He reasons (erroneously) that this will help people have cheap power, but he no longer grasps that this will have negative consequences because he is too far removed from the human condition. Is he an evil baby raping monster? No. Has he gone too far into Taint? Yes. Is that a bad thing? No. No. And Yes. It depends on his choices, and his choices are made based on his history, personality, and relationships.

In chat I used the example of a human serial killer. Without any taint that person is evil; a monster. Give them power beyond measure and things get worse. Of course, no argument. Now take a saint, a real saint, in the figurative sense of the word. Mother Theresa with nova powers. Even with a fuck-ton of taint this is a good person, a person who spends their life making things better for other people. No amount of taint is going to suddenly flip an altruistic individual from saint to demon like a switch. If that change happens it happens over time, slowly, insidiously, by way of that person's experiences. It's all in the RP. Just as easily though that tainted individual could remain altruistic, benign, saintly, while still being very much Not human.

The taint itself isn't "bad" from any perspective except the human one, and even they it's going to vary from person to person.

Quote:

But I can't shake the feeling that making Taint and aberrations less than they are takes away even more from an already undermined system.

Who said anything about making Aberrations less than they are? I did not. I suggested changing the mechanical workings of Aberrations (and Taint since that is just your Aberration progress bar), from one that rewards players who game the system to take reward and avoid the punishment to a system that rewards the players for taking their lumps like big boys and girls.

Quote:

Besides, ultimately Taint is a mechanic that makes RP'ing all the more important. Just like Complications, and since this would use M&M... this is probably the best mechanic there is for controlling its effects.

Thank you. This is what I have been saying. Role Play. If you want people to entertain the idea of the slow slipping away of their humanity and potentially the erosion of "sanity" (and again this is from our very human perspective), then they should be rewarded for doing so. The WW way rewards them for taking the taint, taking the NPs, and then end running the whole thing by gaming the system to avoid ill conceived mechanics like flat social penalties. As Ein pointed out in chat, the social penalties even apply to checks for Intimidation and the like. Foolish systems promote foolish play. Play smart, reward players for what you want to see, but do it after they meet that goal.

[GDP_ST]

The more I think about the flat, one-size-fits-all Social penalty, the more completely asstarded I believe it to be as a mechanic. It's lazy system design promoting sloppy gaming, and it's not hard to see how. Let's take the examples of novas Binky, Berky and Borky, all of whom have taint 8 (flat social penalty of +3 diff).

Example 1 - Binky: Binky is throwing down with a city defender. He's 7 foot tall, built like Geryon, and covered in green flame that melts the concrete under his feet. His aberrations are mostly mental, things like homicidal rage and delusions that he's Ghengis Khan. After throwing the city defender through a wall or six, he turns to the bank tellers and tells them to fill up the bags in a no-nonsense voice. Let's roll his Appearance and Intimidation, shall we?

Well, he has an Appearance of 3 and an Intimidation of 4, no mega-socials, and that +3 difficulty modifier from Taint, so...

1d10=6, 1d10=9, 1d10=9, 1d10=7, 1d10=3, 1d10=4, 1d10=6

Well, that's 3 successes... but wait! No it isn't, because Binky needs *4* 7's or better to score *1* net success. The cashier rolls their Willpower...

1d10=8, 1d10=7, 1d10=9

Whoa, 3 successes. Guess they told the super-strong glowing guy to fuck right off, didn't they. Way to go, Ms Cashier Girl. You told him! St Peter will give you a warm reception at the Pearly Gates in about 0.3 seconds...

Because the Taint social penalty is supposed to be an innate reaction, isn't it? Like the arachnid reflex, it supersedes conscious choice and thought in those around the tainted nova and makes them do dumb thoughtless things. Hell, in this example the cashier probably attacked Binky with a stapler.

Example 2 - Berky: Berky is giving a public oration, trying to make sure that people pay attention and hear the message he's spreading. His aberrations are mainly physical: he's androgynous, he sheds light and warmth, he's impossibly perfect of feature and his voice sounds like a chorus. He has Mega-Charisma 2, Charisma 3 and Perform 3. A good dice pool. He's got that +3 social modifier, though.

1d10=2, 1d10=2, 1d10=10, 1d10=4, 1d10=9, 1d10=1, 1d10=6, 1d10=4

Wow. A 10 and a 9 and not even 1 net success. The man's lucky if he can get attention by farting loudly in an elevator. People are probably throwing things.

Example 3 - Borky: Borky goes home to meet his girlfriends family at the annual get-together BBQ. He's nice, polite, interested in these people he's never met before. His aberrations are mainly physical and to do with his quantum matrix but OH! +3 Taint penalty...

You know what, I'm not even going to roll this time. Let's just say Borky's grasp of social graces is apparently so bad that his gf's father tried to put *him* on the BBQ ten seconds after shaking hands, despite his having a better than average dice pool.

You know what the really irritating thing is about the Taint penalty? It insinuates that baselines and untainted novas are morons, the worst kind of prejudging, knee-jerk redneck trash who go into heebie-jeebies at the faintest sign of anything different. Maybe some are. There may be some people out there who, on contact with a fabulous being from another star cluster, would run screaming in circles then try to hit them with something. They're probably the same type of people who think that gays should be rounded up and hanged, and that the Ten Commandments are all the law man needs. It's a fairly typical White Wolf take on the poor humans who have to share the universe with supernatural or superhuman forces: they're either helpless victims or prejudiced idiots, usually both. In short, it bites.

A hideous freakish nova should not elicit the same blanket reaction as a sinister insane nova, who in turn should not cause the same unease as a divine or godlike nova. They might all have taint 8, but they should feel very different to those around them.

I'm planning to start up a thread in 200X, seeing as that's where I have a soapbox as a Mod. In it I'm going to be putting forth suggestions and hearing counter-suggestions for cleaning up the Taint rules, weighing risk, penalty and reward. We might even be able to make something workable out of the Chrysalis rules, which are broken beyond common sense as they stand. See ya there.

[Mr Fox]

It seems to me that every single white-wolf system tries to have a built in Limiter to the characters, to force role-play of flaws.

Vamps struggle with the beast

Mages struggle with paradox

Changelings with banality

Novas with taint

etc, etc....

What has it accomplished? In most every game I've ever played in those rules were by and large ignored. Not that good roleplay was, but the 'limiter' that WW built in was.

In my Sabbat game I once had to ask a player to be less graphic with the roleplaying of a character flaw because it was getting disturbing. My point is that good roleplay will happen with good players and bad roleplay will happen with bad players and in either case the forcing of white-wolfs limiters on the players makes almost no difference whatsoever. The good players will play their flaws and the bad players will avoid them.

All that said, I like Jameson's suggestion alot. Rewarding is always better than punishing as a motivator.

[Anatoly]

I think we can all agree that the system itself is flawed; and that indeed all White Wolf games share the same flaw. I also agree that rewarding is better than punishing.

That said, a few things about Taint, Abberrations and the Social Penalty:

Taint

Taint is the result of grasping too much power, or not being able to handle the power. The first-generation Novas simply were not meant to channel such wild energies. Permanent taint is "a result of the Nova's body and mind warping beyond Human ken, the tragic side effect of channeling energies human beings were not designed to handle" (Core rules, p148).

Taint itself is very hard to get - outside the automatic point at Quantum 5, you only get it from buying tainted powers or a high Node rating without Taint Resistance. Temporary points are hard to get, and easy to bleed off.

So a character with a high Taint deserves what he gets - grasped too much, and thought too lightly of the consequences. The player obviously made a conscious choice to make the character high Taint to begin with, since it's so hard to get tainted in any other way.

In other words, high taint is the result of a player wanting to RP a tragically sliding character, or a power munchkin who maxed points. Else there'd be no high Taint score, and no discussion.

Aberrations

Aberrations are the result of the Taint, and affect either body or mind. They can be temporary (from racking up a few points of temporary Taint in one session) or permanent (from hacving X points of permanent Taint).

Aberrations are the symptoms of the disease, and while they can be horrible in their own right (such as Sheer Hideousness or being a living Ooze, or having an uncontrollable appetite for living flesh) they do not need to be.

At the low levels of Taint, aberrations are very minor. So a character with 4-5 points of Taint (already halfway to doomsday) might manifest an unusual hair/eye color, sharp teeth, pointed ears, mild paranoia, a weak eyesight or the like. Nothing really serious. They can also become impossibly beautiful, have pheromones attracting the opposite sex permanently or the like - so they aren't always bad, or all the time.

Taint 7-8 is where it gets nasty because the Aberrations get to be in the Major category, and it seems here the kid gloves come off.

Lastly, if any aberration allows a Willpower roll to not give in to it (such as many compulsions) you get a difficulty penalty equal to your Taint. In other words, once your Taint rises over your Willpower score, you have no real choice but to give in to your inhuman obsessions unless you spend a Willpower point.

Important to note is that an aberration should never be advantageous. It may be an advantage here or there, but by and large it is a handicap to the character. Normally the Storyteller picks the aberration, in the open world settings the writer is responsible for this.

The moment a character turns out to never have any disadvantage from an aberration (because it is too easily circumvented, hidden or it's not really all that much of a flaw to begin with) it might be that the chosen aberration is inappropriate.

Social Penalty

The Social Penalty starts at -1 at Taint 4 and rises by 1 per 2 points thereafter. What it represents is not just others' reaction to you, but also your reactions to others. It affects baselines and Novas who have less Taint than you because "you're just a reminder what they could become one day if they are not careful" (Player's guide, page 91).

This means that Sunshine's examples are all correct. Yes, the high-taint monster trying to intimidate people and failing at it seems silly, and it probably is. But remember that it might also be because Binky no longer realizes what Humans find intimidating, and seems comical (and frustrated) in his attempts to communicate.

Note that all of the examples do not mean that the people automatically attack you, or don't do as you say. Even if the person behind the counter is not intimidated by your attempts, that doesn't mean she doesn't consider it a good idea to give the monster what it wants.

Berky's pretty awesome, but he's bringing his message in the wrong way. People don't understand what he's saying, awed by his overpowering display. They politely clap and move on, forgetting his actual message in favor of the blinking lights.

Borky is what we call SoL (Sorely out of Luck). He looks like a freak, and there's something about him that just feels wrong. Daddy's wondering why the daughter's brining in this trash, and while he might not be overtly hostile or anything, he will keep a close eye on the Beast. (Note: Beast of X-Men had similar issues, as did most of the other physically obvious ones).

Conclusion

The rules are harsh, the system is flawed. But there's no need to sugar-coat the Taint or turn it into a reward system just because it seems that way. Let's face it - you have a high Taint score, you picked it for your character.

Why?

Did you want to Roleplay a tragic hero, struggling against the pull of the God/Monster inside? Or did you want to shave a few points off the costs of your powers?

If the first, the rules work fine for you and you should sort of accept that with such a path come difficulties. If the second, you got what you deserved.

Bottom line is, that if you don't want to incur the penalties of Taint, simply don't put so many dots of Taint on your sheet, really.

About Sabbat/Vampire/Mages/Etc.

The difference between all of these and Aberrant is that the system is not avoidable - Humanity drops if you do not live up to its rules, Paradox haunts you if you use your Magic more than a tiny bit, Banality is at the heart of the Changeling setting, Wraiths fight their Spectres inside, and so on.

In all of these, you cannot avoid dealing with it, because it is so strongly ingrained in the setting.

Taint is easily avoidable, and completely unnecessary for any character concept that does not revolve around, or possibly will, the dangers of sliding down the slippery slope.

Mother Theresea with Taint 8 feels wrong (to me as a player too) on all levels, and once her Taint reaches 10 she might conclude that painless euthenasia for the Human race is the best cure. Go figure. Want Mother Theresa to be warm, loving and the hope in dark times? Stop putting that unneeded Taint into it.

Edit: Mutants & Masterminds

The game system itself for M&M is much more fluid and bullet-proof than any other system I've seen so far. I came to RPG-Post for Aberrant, but I stayed for M&M. I think it's simply brilliant.

Aberrations as complications is the best thing to go for indeed, for all reasons Jameson mentioned. Depending on the kind of game you want to run, it will be "lighter" in tone than the average Aberrant setting (unless it's set in 2008, when Taint was low and possibilities were infinite) but that suits it just fine I think.

The advantage is that you can redefine Aberrations as well, to match your idea of what they should be - fashion statements, minor alterations, things going horribly wrong or simply the proof of being different.

I realize my post's a bit long and ranty - perhaps if we go deeper into the philosophy of taint and Aberrant, it might be better to copy that part of the discussion into a new post in the Aberrant forum and use that?

[Joani]

Originally Posted By: Anatoly

I realize my post's a bit long and ranty - perhaps if we go deeper into the philosophy of taint and Aberrant, it might be better to copy that part of the discussion into a new post in the Aberrant forum and use that?

I'm glad that my initial question developed into an interesting discussion - if you guys want to follow up on Aberrant (mechanics) based arguments I would suggest opening a new thread in the appropriate Forum and copy/paste those parts that belong there (I suppose what Sunshine wrote and following posts).

My new game will make use of the suggestions which Jameson and Dawn (mostly) made and reflects what the majority of the discussing parties thing about it.

Thanks again for the great support!

[Eingar]

*apologises grovellingly to Joani for the unintentional threadjack*

Sorry!

Working on a post for 200X now on the above.

[Joani]

Christmas is cancelled this year!

[Eingar]

I say thee NAY!

[Curtis Shane]

Ein: On the bright side, you have more time for the well-stacked elves.

[Courier]

Originally Posted By: Anatoly

Taint itself is very hard to get - outside the automatic point at Quantum 5, you only get it from buying tainted powers or a high Node rating without Taint Resistance. Temporary points are hard to get, and easy to bleed off.

My only quibble is temp taint isn't easy to get rid of (although in many games it's extremely hard to get). If memory serves, temp taint reduction takes weeks to months of down time, during which you do basically nothing with your powers... and at the end of that you get a willpower roll which can be at a high difficulty.

Most novas don't have the time, or live a lifestyle which allows for that much power-free down time. Many don't have absurdly high willpowers, and even with a Will of 10, the difficulty is such that above a certain point you simply can't burn off temp taint.

[Joani]

I thank you all for the awesome feedback.

The project I was working on and which will make use of your suggestions will be put on ice for the time being.

I will keep you updated once I am ready to make the next step.