opnet [OpNet] Nova Government

[Sakurako Hino]

No, this isn't debate of law. This is a debate of method.

Several people here have talked about a Nova Government. Thing is, what would the government take?

What would be the method?

Democracy?

Kingdom/Empire?

Republic?

Communist?

A council?

What?

What will we choose to govern ourselves by? If we are to unite as a people and as a nation of our own?

[kestrel404]

Well, given the motley crew we have today, if we tried forming an all-nova government it would probably look a lot like the Klingon high council. Or else Mal's little cult would crown him king and act as vassals.

Communism is pretty much right out - there are too many of us that don't play well with others, and there's still the problem of getting past the dictator stage.

Empire is a descriptor. Kingdom would lead to immediate war as three or four different highly-powerful novas with irreconcileable differences get crowned.

A council, republic or democracy would look be pretty similar, since there would be so few voting citizens as to make no difference. Basically, that's a matter of what the governing body would look like. There are too few novas for a parliament, too many for a dictator, so a council is the most likely end there.

A (corporate?) hegemony would just change the faces at the top of the current totem poles.

A (benevolent?) dictatorship would fall apart from internal stressors when the VERY POWERFUL individual citizens disagreed with the decisions of their ruler.

So, after a very quick look at the basics, I can only foresee a Council, or a Hegemony as stable forms. This is of course discounting new forms, and not taking into account the depths of the issues. For that, someone would probably have to ask Prodigy or Bailey.

[Bastian]

What about a participatory democracy? One were each and every member takes turns at various necessary governmental functions based on capacity and desire.

In essence, all we would need a governance council elected on a regular basis with non-consecutive terms to handle the day to day affairs and to appoint various novas to the necessary tasks. That's it. All other functions of what we think of as governmental could be handled by citizens on a case by case basis. The Council says we need you to do this and you do it.

Distance is not a factor because so many of us can render distance irrelevant. Also, there is no need for remote stewardship.

Every member participates and is responsible for their activities within the nova nation. If you don't want to contribute, you are free to leave.

[Jager]

Government implies that 1) we can sublimate our egos enough to be governed, and 2) we are willing to punish in some manner those that break the conventions of said government.

My present personal belief is that are most likely options are anarchy, or a feudalistic dictatorship based on the Italian fascist model.

Some novas are simply more lethal than others, be it through intellect and foresight, or raw power. Enough so that no other single nova could force all of their peers to conform to an equitable model. Power Blocs will/would develop on the basis of ability to protect and useful talents.

I hope something happens to put a more positive outlook on things.

[Wakinyan]

I say we go piss out the boundaries of our territories and leave it at that.

[kestrel404]

Totem: That would almost be workable, except for teleporters. In that case, teleporting just about anywhere without forewarning would be cause for a fight.

Bastion: I'm not opposed to the idea, I just don't believe it's workable. Too many are interested primarily in self before community for it to be a stable format. Either you would be reasonably good at weeding out the opportunists, and they would form a seperate threat-entity, or else you wouldn't and the community would break under the lawlessness of its own citizens. The solution to the first would be to either keep a standing army (which is outside of the democratic system by its very nature, and brings seperate stability problems), or else kill rather than exile (immoral, and would likely cause new reasons for dissent). The solution to the second option is to institute a police force (similar to army problem, but with the added issue of criminal management). These are just high-level concerns. The devil is in the details.

Jager: You're such a pessimist. Most novas are already in an anarchic form of government. Just read the Null Manifesto. The point here is that we're most likely evolving culturally towards something else, and we should try to figure out what 'something else' could be.

I don't think dictatorship is an option, though. The 'citizens' have too much personal power, that cannot be taken away from them.

[Xeno]

A hive mind seems apt. At least among the body of leadership, if that would be distinct from the population.

Why have psionics if they are not to be employed in social unification?

[Sakurako Hino]

I do believe in the council concept, as long as it rotates among the mass of Nova society. I feel that there shouldn't be any one leader, and that those who represent us must change as we change.

I view government like an organism. It must evolve to adapt to it's environment.

Perhaps every two years, 3 random Novas are chosen to fill 3 vacated seats of roughly 15 seats.

This pool of representatives is selected from the nova population, mamaged by an independent, Nova run oraganization. Perhaps even the first 15 will choose the list.

With that many novas operating the council, there will be enough diversity of opinion to create dynamic, fair, yet firm leadership of Novakind. With all voices heard.

[Edward]

I think a benevolent dictatorship headed by those novas who have shown themselves most willing and able to shephard the planet and the people on it. Perhaps a group of them, each responsible for a specif task group. Lawmakers. Enforcers. That kind of thing.

Oh, and an absolute must would be some sort of officially recognized and accepted predator group. Something to ensure the validity of the gene pool.

[Jager]

Quote:

Originally posted by Cull:
I think a benevolent dictatorship headed by those novas who have shown themselves most willing and able to shephard the planet and the people on it. Perhaps a group of them, each responsible for a specif task group. Lawmakers. Enforcers. That kind of thing.

Benevolent is such a tricky, yet seductive, word.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cull:
Oh, and an absolute must would be some sort of officially recognized and accepted predator group. Something to ensure the validity of the gene pool.

And thus a reason such a government would fail. See, an absolute drives people into opposition. If you are unwilling to compromise, they why should they?

[Tarot]

What is the place of government? After hanging around this place for a grand total of a 6 months I can say its typical that most of you put the cart before the horse and here you are doing it again. Color me surprised by the completely expected. Imagination, people. If you don't have that, you might as well be an accountant.

I can find a hundred explanations online, few of which agree on anything but the fact that they're talking about government, and none take into account a people that can do for themselves. In many case better than "government" could do for them. So does anyone here think they know what the purpose of government is for a people that come equipped with nodes? Because if you could agree on that much, you might actually figure out what it is that you have in common instead of doing the semantic shuffle and showing off how obtuse most of you really are when it comes to doing something instead of just shooting your mouth off.

Personally, I want janitors. I don't give a fuck about the Department for this and the Agency for that. I want somebody willing to come in and empty the trash, stock the shelves and to do it wihtout me having to supervise so I can concentrate on creating. I am more than capable of tuning out unimaginatively bored/boring nitwits trying to tell me what I should be creating or how creation works. No, I don't need to regulate the entire opnet to ensure my personal preferences are met. Its much easier to simply ignore the trolls and those that want to stay ignorant. Come on here, people.... Why do most of you have agents, staffs and/or lawyers? So you don't have to deal with it yourself. Who among you (with the exceptions of Bailey, Great Monster C and the odd dilletante) actually cares about the form of the government and what its doing for the little people no matter how much shit you talk.

And btw, if you're going to spend your day bitching about what won't work... Those who say it can't be done should stay the hell out of the way of the people that are doing it.

[Lemmy Chillmeister]

I second that shit. I want janitors.

Y'all can have whatever form of government you want to have. Fact is I got enough talent in my fingers I can make a living regardless of what you set up. And if I think you're taking an unfair slice of my pie for what I'm getting in return I'll just freeze Mr. Taxman in his steps and continue doing whatever the fuck I want to do.

And Jager, before you start flapping your fucking gums at me about how yes, I can be stopped, eat me. I'm doing it now. You're doing it now, fuck, hundreds of us are doing it now. We're living the way we want to and sidestepping the cowpatties of pain-in-the-ass government types. Little Miss Pink Britches, it's a silly ass argument. Government is for the people in some way shape or form. But with Novas what the people needs are different from nova to nova.

Let the monkeys have their government and I will do what I want to do. And if they don't like it they can fucking well deal with it or they can do their best to kill me.

[Sakurako Hino]

It interesting that even when I purposefully exclude Baselines from my query, the issue of the ants in the sandbox still crops up.

Quite franky, yes, there are going to be novas that are perfectly fine with handling things on their own and considering themselves nations of their own. More power to them. As long as they don't step on me, my rights, or my well being in the process.

But you see, there are Novas that I think who want to live in a community of their own. One framed by a common consensus. I am one of them.

Problem is, the current ratio of free-agent Novas to Novas who want to build a nation of their own is roughly...

1500 to 1.

It'd be pretty lonely at the Capitol now, wouldn't it?

[billy Horrorshow]

Yeah, and all it would take is one nova group going the Terrorist route, doing some serious heinous shit that actually puts a dent in the Ntv/Utopia Propaganda machine so that people start hating Novas on a grand scale...then more Novas would join the "cause".

Oh wait. I'm being serious in a serious thread.

:runs away before the "Race of Ruling Supermen" diatribe continues:

[Timeslip]

While "let the monkeys have their government and I will do what I want to do" sounds all well and good in theory, it doesn't work in practice.

The baseline government can interfere with our affairs; as Iosif Stalin once said, "quantity has a quality all its own," and the brutal fact of that matter is that -- for now -- baselines outnumber us by several orders of magnitude.

Further, the baseline government will interfere with our affairs. Be it from fear, loathing, envy, or old-fashioned self-interest, they will make our business their business, and vice versa.

As odious as the concept may be to some, the "Race of Ruling Supermen" concept is far from the worst possible path. Frankly, the baselines have amply demonstrated that they are incapable of competently governing their own affairs, let alone ours. Were we to establish and enforce a meritocracy of some sort -- and given the relative abilities, it is difficult to see anything short of an overwhelming majority of those highest on the merit scale being Novas -- a great many problems that have been plaguing this planet for ages could be quickly resolved.

Again, I understand that the thought of such can seem disturbing, even appalling. However, when it comes down to it, we are the next evolutionary step. Modern homo sapiens did not stand by to be ruled by evolutionary precursors; the species took control of its destiny and rose above its previous state. We need to start giving very serious consideration to doing the same...and soon.

[Sakurako Hino]

Yet Another divergence about the Humans.

Look, first off, anything done by a complex, thinking animal like Novas or Humans will at times fail. It's not the Human's fault that they have had failed governments.

The same situation is with us. Although I don't think we won't do a good job, it's just we might have the same trouble. Although our experiments may fail more... dramatically.

Thing is, and I have to ask honestly, is what does the Baseline agenda have to do with us? They don't have any rights over us. We're just as free as they are. To hell with what they think. They aren't involved with this, NOVAS ARE.

Humanophobes... all of you.

[billy Horrorshow]

So what's easier: designing a martial arts style or a decent form of (Nova) Government?

[Sakurako Hino]

UGH. Don't remind ME!

[Timeslip]

Quote:

They don't have any rights over us. We're just as free as they are.

For the time being, but I doubt that such will remain the state of affairs for much longer. The resentment, the hate, and yes, the fear are all building in the baseline population, and the baseline politicians will cater to this just as surely as they did with homophobia a decade ago. Bills will be proposed, and laws will be passed, to make us significantly less than equal on a legal level. Registration is almost certain. Depending how hotly the xenophobia runs, curtailment of reproductive rights could well be in the offing. Such has happened time and again throughout history, and I have it on good authority that such has already occurred for us in quite a number of variant timestreams. Unless we get up off of our complacent, neoanarchist backsides and take steps to head it off pre-emptively, it is almost certain to happen here.

[Slattern]

Quote:

Originally posted by Timeslip:
While "let the monkeys have their government and I will do what I want to do" sounds all well and good in theory, it doesn't work in practice.

The baseline government can interfere with our affairs; as Iosif Stalin once said, "quantity has a quality all its own," and the brutal fact of that matter is that -- for now -- baselines outnumber us by several orders of magnitude.

Further, the baseline government will interfere with our affairs. Be it from fear, loathing, envy, or old-fashioned self-interest, they will make our business their business, and vice versa.

As odious as the concept may be to some, the "Race of Ruling Supermen" concept is far from the worst possible path. Frankly, the baselines have amply demonstrated that they are incapable of competently governing their own affairs, let alone ours. Were we to establish and enforce a meritocracy of some sort -- and given the relative abilities, it is difficult to see anything short of an overwhelming majority of those highest on the merit scale being Novas -- a great many problems that have been plaguing this planet for ages could be quickly resolved.

Again, I understand that the thought of such can seem disturbing, even appalling. However, when it comes down to it, we are the next evolutionary step. Modern homo sapiens did not stand by to be ruled by evolutionary precursors; the species took control of its destiny and rose above its previous state. We need to start giving very serious consideration to doing the same...and soon.

TS my little turtledove, don't you worry your little head over the big, bad, baselines. If I took the time and effort I could start a nuclear war out of pure jealousy over my favors. So, if they ever start acting really obnoxious there are a number of us who can deal with them.

Until then, I like having someone to run my bath so they can stick around.

[Jager]

Quote:

Originally posted by Lemmy Chillmeister:
And Jager, before you start flapping your fucking gums at me about how yes, I can be stopped, eat me. I'm doing it now. You're doing it now, fuck, hundreds of us are doing it now.Let the monkeys have their government and I will do what I want to do.

Who? Me? No, Lemmy, you are a big boy and I believe you know what you are doing. Threatening you serves no purpose.

Quote:

Originally posted by Lemmy Chillmeister:
And if they don't like it they can fucking well deal with it or they can do their best to kill me.

But, that isn't what's going to happen.

[Edward]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:

Quote:

Originally posted by Cull:
Oh, and an absolute must would be some sort of officially recognized and accepted predator group. Something to ensure the validity of the gene pool.

And thus a reason such a government would fail. See, an absolute drives people into opposition. If you are unwilling to compromise, they why should they?

Oh no. That is why it will work. By their unwillingness to compromise I am made aware of whom needs to be eliminated before the new government can be created.

Communism only failed because they didn't kill everyone who disagreed with them. I won't make that mistake.

[Sakurako Hino]

Quote:

Originally posted by Timeslip:

Quote:

They don't have any rights over us. We're just as free as they are.

For the time being, but I doubt that such will remain the state of affairs for much longer. The resentment, the hate, and yes, the fear are all building in the baseline population, and the baseline politicians will cater to this just as surely as they did with homophobia a decade ago. Bills will be proposed, and laws will be passed, to make us significantly less than equal on a legal level. Registration is almost certain. Depending how hotly the xenophobia runs, curtailment of reproductive rights could well be in the offing. Such has happened time and again throughout history, and I have it on good authority that such has already occurred for us in quite a number of variant timestreams. Unless we get up off of our complacent, neoanarchist backsides and take steps to head it off pre-emptively, it is almost certain to happen here.

Then woe for them. Because on that day, Humankind earns the darwin award.

They may find some way to compensate for our power, but if they come knocking, they will not recieve a warm welcome.

[Timeslip]

That "warm welcome" might trigger a warmer one. Baseline governments -- especially those that run toward a totaltarian bent -- have this disturbing tendancy to take the following position: "If I don't win, everyone loses." Indeed, the Cold War doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction was based on this premise. I am well and truly concerned that, in the event of a full-fledged, open conflict between baselines and novas, the baselines will not refrain from turning the Earth into a radioactive rock if they view it as the only method of defeating us...and while a few of us could survive that, the conditions that would remain would make life unpleasant in the extreme.

[Preston]

Ugh ... this again.

Cull, I would oppose you, but not for any environmental reason. I oppose you because I don't accept your right to hunt and kill.

Ms. Hino, it is not a matter of the Darwin Awards, but a matter of survival. How tolerant and accepting does baseline humanity have to be? How many slaughter sessions do they have to experience before they decide that novas present a clear danger to their survival?

Beyond that, do you realize that it will be novas coming for you? It is not so much a matter of basic rights, but a matter of societal survival. I believe that every person, nova and baseline, has the right to grow to their potential and live without fear.

If some sick piece of shit feels they have the right to inflict their twisted vision on the rest of us, I feel the need to stop them. Wether they are baseline or nova makes no difference to me.

[Tarot]

So how come they're still running loose if you have such a hard on for them?

[Sakurako Hino]

"...Ms. Hino, it is not a matter of the Darwin Awards, but a matter of survival. How tolerant and accepting does baseline humanity have to be? How many slaughter sessions do they have to experience before they decide that novas present a clear danger to their survival?"

They have every right to self defense. They DO NOT have the right to come to my door, round me and the rest of Nova kind up in stage cars, and send me to a concentration camp. There is so much Novas can tolerate before WE SHOULD get militant.

Beyond that, do you realize that it will be novas coming for you? It is not so much a matter of basic rights, but a matter of societal survival. I believe that every person, nova and baseline, has the right to grow to their potential and live without fear.

Since I do not pose a threat to Mankind, I doubt that the theoretical you propose is going to happen anytime soon. And you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT about all having the right to grow and live without fear. You're preaching to the choir on that point.

If some sick piece of shit feels they have the right to inflict their twisted vision on the rest of us, I feel the need to stop them. Wether they are baseline or nova makes no difference to me."

I see where you're coming from on this. You're fiercely independent. Unless you choose a good cause to join. As for your sense of Justice... Admirable, and laudible.

[Preston]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarot:
So how come they're still running loose if you have such a hard on for them?

That is a question I ask myself ever time I am asked to assist in one of these cases.

Why are they still running loose?
What can I say?
Several factors are at work here:
One point is that of all the novas capable of taking effective action against criminal novas, few do.
Then there is the fact that of the novas devoting themselves to law enforcement, there is the regular, everyday crime that we are also asked to handle.
Add to those rather pathetic excuses is the very real danger of dealing with these threats. Being in any fight with another nova is bad enough. The incredibly dangerous powers some of these opponents have shown entails a great deal of risk for anyone trying to apprehend them.
How many more good men and women are we willing to lose in the attempt to bring even one criminal nova to justice?

To attempt to answer my own question, I can tell you this. It is only a matter of time before society decides that they no longer care about what it will cost and unleash unlimited sanction on those who would destroy it anyway, and I dread that day. Fear will overcome the Rule of Law, and my life up to that point will have been for nothing.

It is foolish to think that everyone of us can govern himself or herself as he or she sees fit, uncaring for the effects it has on our shared world, and not expect repercussions. We novas are not reaching for our full potential. We are reaching for each others' throats.

[billy Horrorshow]

I like the old french law...what was it called?

You know the one where if your neighbor committed a crime you had to hunt him down and beat him with sticks or the government came by to kill the whole Neighborhood.

Damn that Law studies class was a long, long time ago.

[Tarot]

"One point is that of all the novas capable of taking effective action against criminal novas, few do."

You've got to be kidding me. Project Utopia has, according to my Q&D (that stands for Quick and Dirty) opnet search, the majority of the novas on the planet. They answer up to any single nova problem. The boys (and ladies; how YOU doing) in blue and gold took out the mobs and cartels pretty much overnight. Sure, they should have followed through so we wouldn't be dealing with the CeeZees but who knew?

Have you asked them to help out with your little problem?

Personally I think most of the ones you're talking about are nothing to worry about. You got the pimps - "pimp" means flash and about as loud as my 'pod to you old folks - and the psychos. Pimps talk a lot of shit but when it comes down to it, somebody else is jerking the chain connected to the ring in their nose. They come here and go on (and ON!) about the war, the elegance of bloody death, body counts and bullshit like that. They're the nova equivalent of the kid wearing his colors on the subway and staring at the little old ladies to freak them out when he's on his way to stock munchies on the QuickMart shelves.

Psychos are the loonies. Cull (who's never once managed to answer the question of what the fuck is wrong with the environment is one of those. The odd thing about him isn't his hobbies though. They actually make a really messed up sort of sense when you figure out what he's tripping on. He seems to get off by "being" a wolf or a shark or whatever the fuck predator he's feeling fuzzy about this week. He'll end up the same way any of them do when people get tired of the show.

The loons that know what they are and just enjoy killing are the ones that you should be worrying about. Met a couple of them in Ibiza and I step very carefully around them. Most of the time you can figure out what sets them off or draws their attention. And even they seem to be careful about dropping a loaf in their own backyard - Ibiza - but you know somewhere else there's somebody living on borrowed time waiting for them to show up. Can't send the TMers after a smart loon until after they fuck up.

[Violette 'V' D'Aronique]

Project Utopia doesn't have the majority of novas on the planet. It employs more novas than any other organization, that's true, but it's a far cry from having a majority of all novas on the planet and many of the those employed have nothing to do with T2M or law enforcement.

[kestrel404]

Certainly. When I was working in a lab for Triton, I was counted among that majority (one of their PR tricks is to claim the subsidiary's novas in their statistics). Now I AM in working in a (somewhat indirect) law enforcement role, and let me tell you: Nova crime is rare.

In comparison to baseline crime, it's virtually non-existent. Timeslip was talking earlier about the difference between quantity and quality. Well, there's a much higher ratio of criminals among baselines than among Novas.

Think of all the outlets for violence that Novas have. Plus all of the legitimate ways of making incredible gobs of money. There just isn't that much reason for a Nova to commit crime. And when they do, it's pretty much lost in the background noise.

From my viewpoint, Preston's job in preventing as much baseline crime as he does is a lot more important than going off to fight the dozen nova psychos in the world.

[Preston]

Thank you, Ms. D'Aronique and Alchemist.

The problem is not mine, Tarot, it is the worlds. When other law enforcement agencies, including Project Utopias, come to me for assistance in a forensic capacity (object reading, crime scene examination, and the like) I do assist.

I believe the rest of your question was answered by Ms. D'Aronique and Alchemist.

Your comment on the smart loon is very insightful.

[Dreamer]

Quote:

Originally posted by Alchemist:
Certainly. When I was working in a lab for Triton, I was counted among that majority (one of their PR tricks is to claim the subsidiary's novas in their statistics).

Case and point,I was working for Utopia. As it was, my shipping company was working with them to help bring food to the needy.

[Walker]

To answer the original question. Adhocracy. Who ever can be arsed to do what needs doing does it. Works for me on a frequent basis.

[Jager]

Walker, if you would answer me this:

Do you expect that if at some future date you need assistance, it will be provided?

[Neil Preston]

Walker, I'm laying out the SOS in the desert sands as we speak. It will be right above the HELP ME! I layed out earlier.

[Sakurako Hino]

Neil, you're in trouble?

I'll be there at post haste!

Thing is... where are you?

[Neil Preston]

Captain, I have Opnet access.

If I was really in trouble, couldn't I just contact some local assistance?

It was a joke between Mr. Walks Among the Stars and me.

[Sakurako Hino]

*blinks*

Err... *sigh*

I hate being outside of the joke. You know if anything happened to ya, I'd be there as fast as I could. You know that, right?