opnet [OpNet] Is there life out there besides us?

[kestrel404]

I'm asking this honestly. If you have an opinion or a personal experience, feel free to chime in.

Me...I'm pretty sure there is. I'm not quite defining life here in a conventional sense. As an example, I will define earth-life as DNA and its support structure.

Anyone else?

[Amped]

In my opinion there is too much "out there" for us to be the only forms of life.

[Damanor]

There's a lot of "out there" but no verified evidence of extraterrestrial life. This means that either it doesn't exist, it's too far away for them to come visit, or they're hiding from us.

Any warpers or teleporters have experience we should know about?

[Long]

I hafta agree with Amped on this, There's too much we haven't explored to say we're the only planet with Life.

[Walker]

If your idea of life is bugs, slime, microbes etc then there is plenty. Speaking from my own personal experience there's a much more fascinating mix of life on Earth though. It is the most diverse ecosystem I've ever found (in the solar system or out of it). Once again if you want the opinion of a true Space Angel you'll have to go and find one

Any-one ever heard of Fermi's Paradox? Here's my thoughts on it. Given that the universe/galaxy is so large and so old why hasn't Earth already been colonised by an advanced species? As Amped says, there's too much out there for us to be the only forms of life. Where the hell is everyone? Aren't we invited to the party? Or are we just lucky and haven't been wiped out yet?

[kestrel404]

So you've found some? Life, based on DNA or not, that evolved independently?

[Walker]

The only definite thing I've found within our own Solar System probably didn't evolve independently. It was probably there from Nova intervention, there were even a few witnesses for that event and a bit of scientific proof. Mars may have something about it, however it remains 'quiet' to my ability to talk to animals and plants so it's probably marginal 'life' at best.

My own experiences outside the Solar System are entirely anecdotal and no real evidence survives, so they're not very scientific. I was a dreadful scientist and lost most of my instruments fairly early on I'm afraid. I wandered 'out there' pretty much by accident and was concerned about contamination... I would say the most advanced thing I encountered was probably amino acid based but did not use DNA, was multicellular and resembled an insect. None of the moons, planets or solar systems I've ever visited are really habitable other than for some-one that can adapt pretty radically to the environment.

If you thought life on earth was hard...

[Greg Frist]

::Oops::

[kestrel404]

Well, close enough. Anecdotal proof from a world-walker is better than what scientists were basing theories on a century ago.

And it's definitly enough to move into the real reason for this thread.

I recently had a very scary thought. After a great deal of pondering, I have decided to share it.

Alien Novas. Or, if you're mystically inclined, Alien Gods. Ones who do not share any common points of refference with us.

Before anyone declares this to be impossible, I will lay out two arguments (one for the scientifically minded and another for the mystically inclined).

Novas are a product of evolution. All life that CAN change is subject to evolution. Walker has likely only visited thousands or tens of thousands of star systems. He's found multiple variations on life. This puts the chance of life forming in the ~1% to .1% range. I posit that life needs to be sentient to develop quantum expression. At the low-end of my estimate, that gives us billions of planets with life. What's the chance of sentient life forming? Over the long term, and discounting the lifespan of stars, I would say it is unity, 100%. I would say the same about developing quantum expression. Why? Because intelligence is an evolutionary advantage, and QE is the ULTIMATE evolutionary advantage. But that is only in the long term.

I cannot give quite so much detail to the mystic's argument. But the essence is that godhood and the spirits existed before mankind in nearly every culture and tradition. If it is a thing that exists outside of man, then it should exist where man does not. If it also exists where alien life has formed (and there is no reason to believe otherwise), then there is good reason to believe that the aliens will have their own gods and spirits, shaped by them as we shape our gods (or are shaped by them, if that's your belief).

What does all this mean? Simple: It's pretty likely that there are aliens, with quantum expressions as powerful or more so than our own. Why haven't we met them? The universe is a big place, and it's mostly empty. And who says we haven't?

[Sakurako Hino]

Walker, what's to say that we aren't the colonizers of Earth? Lost to the "mother species". After all, scientists still bicker about evolution, there is still room to speculate that Humans, and Novas, have a heritage outside of this planet.

Then again, Earth's location in the Galaxy is VERY backwater. Most likely we havent' been discovered yet, and if we have, after the ETs see us taking over every nook and cranny of Earth, they move on.

Not every ET race has to be an invader.

[Singularity]

Quote:

Originally posted by Endeavor:
Then again, Earth's location in the Galaxy is VERY backwater. Most likely we havent' been discovered yet, and if we have, after the ETs see us taking over every nook and cranny of Earth, they move on.

I recently satisfied an interest in astronomy and I distinctly recall a theory that stated our location in the galaxy was a good thing, as in a place ideal for supporting life. If I understood it correctly, the closer you get to the galaxy core the more powerful and frequent cosmic or other kinds of radiation becomes. In particular, at least one "super" black hole is at the center of the galaxy, creating several gravity-related problems. Or as it was put to me once, we are in the prime zone for life and not "backwater" at all.

However, I am not a scientist nor an astronomer.

[DigiGeist]

I think, and don't get me wrong, back-water is our local neighborhood. Local stars near Sol are not exactly prime candidates. There's only a small handful.

Most likely, you'd have to travel a few light years (About 500 or so) to get to a spot that's a motherlode of life.

Let's say I'm an ameteur astronomer myself. I had to become one for Navigation training of various ilks. I just decided to take it a bit further after the fact.

[Tarot]

It would be odd that there weren't some kind of life out there but its the intellegent life that I think about more often.

Some days its hard enough to find that here on Earth.

[Walker]

Alchemist I only visited a few systems in ten years because, dude, space is really big My senses are good enough to be able to determine the spectral type of stars also I have pretty profound intuition. So my guesses of where I could find life were mostly accurate.

Scientific argument:-

The idea of alien Novas is interesting but I think Fermi's Paradox becomes even more compelling. The universe as well as being big is very old. Conditions for life were probably right from billions of years ago. Given that a million years isn't very long then any Alien Novas would likely have millions of years of growth on us. If I can walk between stars then a 5 million year old Nova can probably walk between galaxies. They could also probably write Kilroy Woz Ere in flaming letters a billion light years long, snuff out entire globular clusters etc. etc. Humanity may not be the only sentient creature (consider the dolphin) but I think we are the universe's first Novas.

Mystic argument:-

Who knows, maybe Alien Nova's become so powerful that they can create their own universes. Maybe the universe we inhabit came about coz some Alien Nova got bored one Friday afternoon

Endeavor As far as I'm concerned no serious scientist doubts evolution, though doubtless CoMA are against it

On the question of - are there any advanced alien civilizations - I have an open mind. We may not be invited to the party yet because we're too primitive. Maybe there's nothing out there. Maybe there is an advanced civilization which rules half the galaxy and we're just on the wrong (or right) side.

Singularity Yep as far as is known the arms of a spiral galaxy are the best places to go looking for life as we know it Lots of nasty radiation at the centre of galaxies, wrong type of stars too. Might be some life there but probably not because there's not enough of the right stuff and the environment makes being on the rack next to a ten gigawatt nuclear reactor seem like a good bet.

Digi I really don't know what's out there that far. It's true that there are areas with better stars. You can find life in some unexpected places where it shouldn't exist. You can also find that where it should exist there's nothing. The light years around earth may be rich in life, sparse or dead average.

Tarot Know how you feel. I suggest trying the seas

P.S. If some of you are wondering what the hell this Fermi's Paradox is that I keep banging on about I say to you...

You've got the Opnet look it up

[Damanor]

There's a quote about the existence of alien life, something like, "Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not. Either one is overwhelming." (I don't remember it perfectly; sorry...)

Fermi's Paradox:

I think Walker's point about Fermi's Paradox is important. I also may be misunderstanding it entirely, so please correct me if I'm confused.

The whole point of a paradox is that it's supposed to be logically impossible, or at least statistically improbable. Fermi's Paradox says that we don't see any evidence of alien life and/or alien novas, and according to our assumptions, we should be able to see some evidence of one or the other. Either (1) our observations are incorrect or (2) we are working from flawed assumptions.

(1) If our observations are incorrect, then these alien novas may or may not exist, but we can't see any evidence indicating that they do.

(2) If our assumptions are flawed, then maybe we are the only novas in the universe, no matter what the odds say. Or perhaps there are other novas, but when they have caused supernovas or other stellar phenomena we assumed it was all natural. Or it could be something else entirely.

I'm going to assume that our observations are correct, because for the time being we have no way of knowing otherwise. So what other assumptions are we making, and which ones are flawed?

[kestrel404]

I give Fermi's Paradox about as much scientific credence as Occam's Razor. None whatsoever. They both effectively start with the assumption 'all things being equal'. Any reasonably observant scientist will tell you that 'all things' are never equal.

There are numerous explanations why Fermi's Paradox could be wrong. I like to think that the simplest one is to considder the rate of evolution.

The universe is tens of billions of years old. Life on this planet is tens of millions of years old. Space travel is less than a century old. Novas are less than two decades old.

That's one of the reasons I proposed that sentience is a pre-requisite for quantum expression. If it could possibly be developed by simple life forms, then a teleporting fungus would have already colonized the whole of the universe.

[Jager]

A few random thoughts:

To notice us, they would have to live in, or regularly travel within 100 LY of us.

To notice them at all, we would have to live within about the same.

That's a pretty minute bubble in space.

The Galaxy Core's problem is that, while very dense with older planets, its also full of enough radiation to make the development of life astronomically more difficult than here.

The Rim is where it's at and, well, the Rim is just that ... the ever-expanding edge of the galaxy.

The vast majority of planets that have the best chances of supporting life are thus moving away from us.

Then you can consider the race to escape one's own solar system before it croaks. Hey, you've only got 4~6 billion years, so the race is on.

Also note that the march to sentients and civilization isn't pre-ordained.

[Dreamer]

And Jager note that it is also not timed. For all we know they could be making castles, or making ships that travel faster than our dreams. They could have had radios when the earth was still forming, or they could still be oozes in the muck. You do not know either way.

You only know that there is signs of life on other planets in Orbit around the same star as us.

[Jager]

You have no idea what I know, little girl. No idea.

[Sakurako Hino]

Walker:

Agreed, but there are a few Scientists who are sort of mystified by the way Mankind evolved. It is quite... confusing. To some. Not all though. I'm sorry for placing something that could be a blanket term.

[Walker]

Alchemist Rates of evolution and start-times for evolution are not always equal to what we find on earth...

I like Fermi's paradox because it asks the question - Why don't we see aliens right now? Following on from what Damanor says it challenges our current observations and assumptions. It makes us create explanations WHY we don't. One of the explanations is right. Applied to the question - are we alone? It's one big negative or one of a big mass of positives. At the very least it suggests that inter-species communication may be in some way difficult. Maybe different alien civilisations try communicating for a few years find they have nothing in common for some reason and give up. Therefore we haven't got a signal from space or recieved a visit because at any given time few civilizsations are bothering to send anything. The neighbours are such boors or just too alien...

That idea has important points on the practical level for Nova and Baseline interaction.

[Dreamer]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
You have no idea what I know, little girl. No idea.

You know sometimes I think I rattle people's cages to get them to say things like this. It makes me feel good in an odd way.

[Jager]

Meh ...

Maybe you just don't play well with others, so this is all you can do?

[Splitmind]

Old thread, but I couldn't help it. I didn't think anyone on this forum would be interested in my theories. I'm so excited to see someone might be!

Is there life out there besides us? Yes.

One problem is that most people assume that they need to be from our galaxy, and so there are a bunch of reasons listed why we would have seen them or deduced their existence because we think we know the habitable areas of the galaxy. But there are other galaxies in the universe, and perhaps other universes. If traveling across the galaxy is feasible, why not from other galaxies? Other realities? Given the light speed barrier (which I assume most of us still agree upon, I imagine the teleporters among us might be able to see themselves leaving Earth if they have a good enough telescope), it's only a hop, skip and a jump from intragalactic travel to intergalactic travel, and who knows what else. There's a much, much bigger chance that there's other life if we include the entire universe in our system, and only a slightly smaller chance that they'd be able to find us if they're outside of our galaxy. So the chances of us finding them might be lower than we thought, while the chances of them finding us might be higher.

You see, Alchemist (can I call you that?), you assumed that sentience is a prerequisite for eruption, but that's a very anthropocentric view, assuming that we are the only sentient things on the planet. One can argue that dolphins are sentient, and dogs blur an already uncertain line since they've been socialized to act in human ways and even to feel emotion. People may claim that animals feel no emotion, but anyone who's owned a dog will debunk that immediately. It's obvious that we're the most sentient creatures on the planet, but it's not an on/off switch.

Moving on. If we can agree that our definition of sentience is wobbly, perhaps we can agree that we don't know that sentience is a prerequisite for eruption. What we believe we know is that it's only occurred in homo sapiens. Further, the node is coded in a genetic sequence that shows up in no other species. I believe that we have reached our level of "sentience" as a result of our latent ability to express quantum powers. Do you follow me? Do you follow me? If baselines in the past have manifested even the most rudimentary quantum powers, humanity's likelihood to survive is possibly doubled, and our rate of progress is increased. Remember that study Utopia did years back about the possibility of Jesus as a Nova, just for instance? Even if none of them erupted, people with nodes tend to be unusual even before eruption, right? We reached the top of the food chain on this world because of the nodes, not vice versa! If dolphins and dogs had nodes, maybe they'd be up here with us, but they don't, so they were left behind! Don't you see?

So of the billions of species once inhabiting the Earth, only one, only one had the node, latent as it may have been throughout much of history. But we're just faster; other roads to evolution are possible, and in fact the likelihood that two species from different worlds would both have this same bit of DNA is staggering. It would require nearly all of the rest of their DNA to match ours just to fit. So unless there are other humans (or other Novas for those of us who don't like to be reminded of their ancestry) out there, and that's next to impossible.

So these aliens can't have quantum powers. Unless they've evolved an alternative node (and this still seems unlikely unless someone can build us a node using anything other than Nova DNA, which hasn't been done yet to my knowledge), they've evolved the hard way, with no lucky breaks.

But if they've advanced enough to be able to find us, then no doubt they'll have noticed the Novas. Chances are their technology would have been built around other ideas, unless they skipped straight to quantum machines without the insight we gained from having the powers. But even if they have the machines, maybe especially if they have the machines, wouldn't they want the powers themselves? Wouldn't they be trying to find out how it works as hard as we are? And might they not have a head start?

And if they needed our powers, but they feared us, wouldn't it be in their best interests to make sure we were too busy to notice them? To sow discord among us? Many people agree that the world is better now that we have Novas but there's still just as much senseless war. Do you know how many Novas die a year? The number's bigger than you might think, I'm sure. Does it make sense that CoMA is still standing? That Kashmir is still a hell-hole after all the world's been putting into it?

Unity. Remember that, it may save our lives.

[kestrel404]

Alchemist (can I call you that?)

Certainly.

you assumed that sentience is a prerequisite for eruption, but that's a very anthropocentric view

I did, yes. No one challenged me on that assumption, so I felt no need to explain it at the time. However, I no longer feel this is necessarily true. It is in fact entirely possible that quantum manipulation can be performed on an entirely instinctual basis. But my reasoning at the beginning was that, if it were possible to manipulate quantum without sentience, then the ultimate evolutionary advantage would be the self-maintenance found in many highly adaptable novas. This would prevent starvation, allow a species to colonize space directly, and allow unlimited reproduction so long as mass was available. I've since decided that, yes this is entirely possible, and that if it has occurred, the species in question simply hasn't developed teleportation, limiting their spread through the universe to whatever speed they can attain naturally in space (since such a species would never evolve a need for intelligence).

both have this same bit of DNA

Actually, the odds of that are astonishingly high. Go look up the Birthday paradox, it's highly enlightening. But beyond that, we don't actually know how the node works, beyond the fact that Fahracyte cells somehow interact directly with the forces of the universe. And, there have been reports of novas entirely without nodes (I believe that one of the old board members, Xeno, was an example of such), either because of significantly different physiology, or because they were composed of solid energy. So, I rather doubt that the only way to become a nova is to have a very specific DNA sequence.

unlikely unless someone can build us a node using anything other than Nova DNA

As no one knows how a fahracyte works, that's pretty unlikely in the forseeable future. But just because we can't do it now doesn't mean it can't be done.

The rest:

You seem to be hinting that there are already aliens out there among us, studying us, yes? I don't think so. We would have seen them. It's not like novas are dependent on satelites or radar for detecting such things, so there's no excuse for why we would miss an incoming spacecraft (heck, when I got back from Mars in what was effectively a meteor the size of a buick, I was tracked by no less than a dozen private observatories, and intercepted by T2M less than two minutes after landing).

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

RE: Sentience & Eruption

There have been a few people who have erupted without sentience. Some after they died, a few from comas or other brain problems. I don't think its sentience exactly, I think it's us.

I would say the same about developing quantum expression. Why? Because intelligence is an evolutionary advantage, and QE is the ULTIMATE evolutionary advantage. But that is only in the long term.

On the contrary. We shouldn't see any eruptions with aliens (or ourselves) from evolutionary forces for the same reasons we don't see wheels on animals. While the final form is impressive, evolution works through small steps and single mutations and Quantum Expression doesn't.

Some day someone is going to get enough genetic engineering to 'create' from scratch a creature with wheels.

Similarly, I don't think eruption (and certainly not mass eruption) is a result of evolution. Someone, somewhere, made this happen. Maybe those alien gods came by a million years ago and did some genetic engineering. Maybe something else equally absurd and unlikely. I don't know, I'm missing too many important pieces to this puzzle.

But this biological manipulation of quantum smacks of the final stage of an extremely advanced technology or something similar. I don't see how a little bit of radiation from an exploding space shuttle is supposed to "explain" this.

[Splitmind]

You seem to be hinting that there are already aliens out there among us, studying us, yes? I don't think so. We would have seen them.

There are aliens watching us and affecting us, yes, but they're certainly smart enough to realize that actually being anywhere near us in person or in proxy would be enormously dangerous. We may be less technologically advanced than they are, but Nova powers can overcome a lot of technology, and it's too unpredictable.

And even if they don't come close enough to be seen, they can be sensed by those who know how. It's not a nova thing, I think anyone can do it. I started doing it before I erupted. It drove me a little crazy, but I sensed them, and I don't think I'm the only one. They're waiting until they can create nodes of their own, and they no doubt hope to complete that project before we can. Approaching without nodes of their own is effectively suicide with so many Novas here on Earth.

I'm willing to admit that I'm not a geneticist. I didn't come to the theory that there are aliens through reasoning. I knew they were out there, then started to hypothesize as to why and how they existed, and why they wish us ill (though the latter might be explained in terms of a pre-emptive strike; if I were an alien race, I'd wonder how long it would take the Earthlings to try to take us over).

Sadly, for whatever reason, none of the people who believe my ultimate conclusion (we are not alone, and they don't like us) are willing or able to do the research on my behalf. It's terribly frustrating.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

You seem to be hinting that there are already aliens out there among us, studying us, yes? I don't think so. We would have seen them.

There are aliens watching us and affecting us, yes, but they're certainly smart enough to realize that actually being anywhere near us in person or in proxy would be enormously dangerous.

Dangerous and unrewarding. If we assume eruption, or the genes that cause eruption, ultimately come from some one else, then I don't see why they would be "studying" us. A farmer doesn't watch every seed to see if it sprouts. They could wait for us to go out and find them.

The interesting part is presumably "they" wouldn't stop with one... which leads us back to alien novas out there somewhere.

And this is speculation based on speculation. We just don't have enough information.

[Splitmind]

Edited on November 10th, 2015.

I'm sorry you all had to see this post yesterday.

[kestrel404]

I would trust your doctor on this. In fact, I suggest you find a nova psychologist, or at least someone you trust, to help you deal with this.

Just so you know, the likelihood that your theories are correct is far, far lower than the likelihood that you are being manipulated to believe that those theories are correct. If you're being controlled, the controller would most likely never allow you to know their true nature.

And, there's the chance that it is all a manifestation of mental instability caused from either a chemical imbalance, past experience, or energy leaked from the node.

Find a psychologist, and speak with him. If nothing else, you will learn how to phrase these things in a manner where your credibility will not be called into question.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Splitmind:Why would you assume that eruption was caused by aliens?

I don't. What I said was I don't think evolution had a hand in the mass eruption in 1998+. Evolution doesn’t “prepare the way for the next step”. Evolution makes steps.

Who or what had a hand in this becomes an interest question I’m not a fan of most of the alternatives. God. Ancient Novas (Greek Gods). Aliens. Extra-Dimensionals. Time Traveling Novas (i.e. we go back in time and seed our own genes). None of these ideas seem realistic. The problem with tossing the problems of advancement back onto a more advanced entity is you then have the issue of what created that more advanced entity… i.e. I’m not a fan of so called “Intelligent Design”.

Right now all I can say is I simply don’t have enough pieces to this puzzle.

Quote:

Splitmind:…I mean, my doctor had convinced me that they weren't really speaking to me directly…

Was that before you erupted?

[Splitmind]

Alchemist: And, there's the chance that it is all a manifestation of mental instability caused from either a chemical imbalance, past experience, or energy leaked from the node.

Yes, my doctor agrees that the voices I hear are likely just a manifestation of my condition. He's very patient with my outbursts, and I respect him a great deal, even if he doesn't believe me about the aliens. And after talking to him again last night, he reminded me that even if the aliens weren't afraid of me, we've already discussed that they'd have more important things to do than pester me. A few heavy-duty tranquilizers later, and the voices quieted enough to let me sleep last night after all.

Dr. Troll: Was that before you erupted?

After. My eruption actually occurred because of my sudden enlightenment about the aliens. I panicked, thinking they were going to attack me now that I knew about them, and erupted. Of course, now I know that they're not so direct, so I don't have to worry about any sort of attack, at least until they get the information they want out of Earth's Nova population. I feel kind of silly about the whole thing, now.

My doctor says I should probably stay away from this thread for now. I only showed up to explain my outburst and do my best to delete it. I'm sorry for coming across the way I did.

[Azdak]

It's really amazing that you've failed to make a connection between the explosion of the Galatea (you know - in outer space?), the simultaneous occurrence of N Day, and your alien intervention theories.

[Tommy Tomorrow]

All very interesting conjecture, but the level of coincidence required is simply too incredible for my tastes. Which is not to say that I don't have my own theories. All of which borrow heavily from the body of knowledge amassed by those much more intelligent than I, and definitely having better funding to research subjects involving Stranglets particles and Intron Sequences. Not to mention million dollar lasers that do what Alchemist apparently does on idle whim.

,,

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:

Right now all I can say is I simply don’t have enough pieces to this puzzle.

Here's my theory:

The intron sequence that contains the information template for faracytes is estimated to have been part of our DNA for only a few hundred millenia. And, even though its recessive, the math says there should have been 2-4 novas a century that could manifest faracyte tissue. Not that I plan on commenting on the likelihood of Da Vinci or Christ having been novas. After all, if the nova age has taught us anything its that those with great power are more likely to be screw offs than meaningful contributers. With this in mind, its seems likely to me that there were novas in our past and that many of our myths and legends are inspired by their lives.

None of the above is really a theory though, since anyone with an opnet connection and a little math skill can arrive at the same conclusions. What requires a little more creativity is going from 2-4 novas a century to hundreds of novas every year. Unlike the statistical anomolies of color ratios in MM candies produced in American, that's a conscious decision on the part of the company to produce a mix of colors that's considered pleasing to the eye btw, I think our nova age is really nothing more than the far end of a bell curve and rooted in the "ping" response of novas. So as not to bore anyone with the statistics or physics; a freakishly high but statistically probably occurance of novas initiated a wide-spread cycle of eruptions simply by their existence as active novas. This establishes a fairly constant cycle causing latent novas to erupt. Although the statistics on the distribution of the required intron sequence is a little hazy since no can afford to test the entire planet, the estimates of latent is anywhere from 1:60,0000 to 1:500,000. So if the eruption cycle continues at its current levels we'll all see the last nova to erupt sometime in our lifetime.

That last is a very depressing thought for me.

Its not as romantic as extraterrestrial gods or conspiracy theories but then science is often like that.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

the math says there should have been 2-4 novas a century that could manifest faracyte tissue.

I've seen that math. It has assumptions built on assumptions. It's tempting... but not convincing.

Science and good records have been around for the last several centuries. If there had been 30 novas in the last 1000 years, some of them would still be around, and we'd have good records for others.

Not that I plan on commenting on the likelihood of Da Vinci or Christ having been novas.

Possible, but unlikely.

The problem with either of them being novas is, to our limited knowledge, they didn't manifest other nova characteristics. If Christ was a nova healer, then he would have taken much, much longer to die. Da Vinci became old and frail at the usual rate.

Looking at modern people, another name that usually pops out is Einstein. He did good work, but again we have the same issues. For starters, his earlier work was much better than his later work (historically this is pretty common in the cutting edge Physics crowd). To put that in perspective, I’m smarter now than I was when I erupted, my work has gotten better. If we review his medical file, I suspect we’ll find he got the flu and that sort of thing. And this ignores that his brain is in a glass jar somewhere (I’ve seen pictures) and he didn’t have a node (although there were other anomalies).

[Tommy Tomorrow]

I've seen that math. It has assumptions built on assumptions.

Of course there are assumptions. That's why its a theory and I'm writing books instead of being a science oracle at Delphi. But the presence of reasonable assumptions doesn't make a theory less plausible. And those assumptions, minus a record of an eruption accompanied by vast displays of inhuman power prior to 1998, have tentative proofs. This is basic Mendelian genetics we're talking about.

Possible, but unlikely.

I think you misunderstood my point on this. If you define making a positive contribution as working towards the common good, most novas don't. It could be argued that Da Vinci and Christ were simply doing what they wanted to do and our view of their contributions as positive or negative is a modern perception. The point is that while Da Vinci and Christ might have been novas, its as likely if not more their neighbors were novas while they were just top of the bell curve for human as viewed through the lense of history.

Looking at modern people, another name that usually pops out is Einstein.

Not very likely though possible. Still, rather than argue about it, just convince your employer to 'borrow' a sample of brain tissue. You can run it through a DNA resequencer to put everything back in order and then test for the presence of the intron sequence. It would be costly but the benefits would be enormous. Were Einstein not a nova, that would prove baseline humanity can contribute significantly even though novas tend to outperform baselines. If he did possess the gene sequence it would empirically prove nova potential existed prior to 1998. That's important in as much as you wouldn't be quoting "assumptions on assumptions" if we were talking about some less startling but still rare genetic disposition like violet eyes or ash blond hair.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

And those assumptions, minus a record of an eruption accompanied by vast displays of inhuman power prior to 1998...

The later tends to indicate that something is wrong with the former.

The point is that while Da Vinci and Christ might have been novas, its as likely if not more their neighbors were novas while they were just top of the bell curve for human as viewed through the lense of history.

A few posts ago you were implying those two might be novas. Now you are saying they probably weren't, and the real novas were "their neighbors".

My point is at least a few of those 30 novas of the last 1000 years would have had a huge impact, and wouldn't be recorded as "D's Neighbor".

Example: Magically have me erupt during the Civil War, WWI, or WW2. My side wins. It'd be like my brother's 7 year old hockey team 20 years ago. Their plan of action was simple. They gave the puck to the team's best player. He'd skate around all the other players and score 5 or 6 times a game. They won every game.

History doesn't mention any gods taking over the planet over the last thousand or so years.

convince your employer to 'borrow' a sample of brain tissue. ... If [Einstein] did possess the gene sequence it would empirically prove nova potential existed prior to 1998.

No, all it would prove is that Einstein had the potential to erupt. Since we actually have Einstein\'s Brain we already know he didn't actually erupt.

[Tommy Tomorrow]

The later tends to indicate that something is wrong with the former.

I strongly disagree. You're talking like a man that knows legends and myths only in passing, but never bothered to study the subject. The possibilities of eruptions are there in the fabric of the stories along with first hand accounts told by eye witnesses. If you're a resident of the nova age of humanity as we both are, and know what you're looking at as we both would, then the incidents are there. What we lack is empirical proof.

A few posts ago you were implying those two might be novas.

What I implied is that I didn't want to get into the farce of trying to prove every historical personage of worth was a nova. I also implied that since most novas don't add a great deal of value in the modern age, its pretensious to think novas in the past would have more meaningful lives.

I also think at least one of your examples is seriously flawed if only because they're inappropriate and illogical. For example; why would any stable person decide to become a freakishly large, impossibly muscled creature modeled after a comic book, let alone during the time of the civil war? Especially since comics and superheroes as we understand the terms wouldn't really come into their own as a medium or artform until the early 20th century.

Your hockey example has some merit though. I can think of several instances where extraordinary individuals were "skating around the other players," even if restricted to history and not mythology.

No, all it would prove is that Einstein had the potential to erupt.

I believe I mentioned that and already stated the positives of the situation. Either he hadn't the potential to erupt thus proving his contributions had nothing to do with being a nova, or he had the potential to erupt therefore could have been but we've proven the potential for novas prior to 1998. In either case, there are positives to the situation.

Since you seem to be overlooking this, I would remind you faracyte tissue decays quickly on death or seperation from the body and also quantum fields don't stick around very long even with living novas. Having his brain doesn't prove he wasn't a nova, although it does make it unlikely that he had a large node if he was. I assume you know, or can verify with your employer, nodes vary in size from that of a small pearl to as large as a regulation American softball?

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Troll: The later tends to indicate that something is wrong with the former.

Tommy Micro: I strongly disagree. You're talking like a man that knows legends and myths only in passing, but never bothered to study the subject. The possibilities of eruptions are there in the fabric of the stories along with first hand accounts told by eye witnesses. If you're a resident of the nova age of humanity as we both are, and know what you're looking at as we both would, then the incidents are there. What we lack is empirical proof.

The legends and myth go back thousands of years… or put another way, before good records were kept. Did eruptions just stop when the printing press was invented? For that matter, many novas presumably will live for hundreds or even thousands of years. Did they all go into hiding? None of them decided to do something over the top dramatic that would last for the ages?

Tommy Micro: I also implied that since most novas don't add a great deal of value in the modern age, its pretentious to think novas in the past would have more meaningful lives.

Pick 30 random people and make them, and only them, novas. None of them are going to have an impact? Nobody decides to become King for a few hundred years? Nobody becomes a person of significance? I’d think at least a few would end up superhumanly attractive. No one notices that the most beautiful woman on the Earth stays #1 for 50 or 100 years?

Tommy Micro: I also think at least one of your examples is seriously flawed if only because they're inappropriate and illogical. For example; why would any stable person decide to become a freakishly large, impossibly muscled creature modeled after a comic book, let alone during the time of the civil war? Especially since comics and superheroes as we understand the terms wouldn't really come into their own as a medium or art form until the early 20th century.

They wouldn’t. But if they were the only nova, they wouldn’t need to be able to lift mountains. Lots and lots of novas can lift a ton. No tanks. Heavy weapons are rare. A little bit of increased strength and increased resistance and he’s an unstoppable killing machine without the green skin.

And that’s if he goes the Brick route. The idea of stealth has been around for a long time. Ditto Gravity, Weather, Fire, etc. With 30 random novas, you probably aren’t going to see someone as powerful as Pax, but you wouldn’t need any one close to that if he’s the only one.

Even where the historical record seems to suggest novas might have been involved, common sense says otherwise. Example: Let’s take one of the big conflicts with all the Greek Gods involved, i.e. The Trojan War. All the gods involved, and the war goes on for 7 or so years. What, nobody thought to just knock over the wall? Nobody thought to just kill the other army? Add pretty near any elite to either side and they win in the first couple of days.

Tommy Micro: Your hockey example has some merit though. I can think of several instances where extraordinary individuals were "skating around the other players," even if restricted to history and not mythology.

True, but not very consistently and not forever. Napoleon had his Waterloo, and he got old and fat at the end. You take a 1000 baselines, have them each flip a coin 10 times, and chances are good one of them will flip 10 heads. There is a big difference between that and something like a Troll clone ripping through an army, and what I am to brutal force, others are to music or beauty or whatever.

Tommy Micro: I assume you know, or can verify with your employer, nodes vary in size from that of a small pearl to as large as a regulation American softball?

The subject has come up one or twice.

[Tommy Tomorrow]

Rasputin.

The problem is not that you're wrong, rather that you have a tendency to put all of your eggs into one basket of logic that's too easily overturned. Take a look at the documentation in the vatican archives on witches and demons to meet every one of your critiria of startling power, ambition and documention. As a representative of Project Utopia you should have little problem with getting them to authorize your access to the stacks.

Now that we've isolated the one individual that could have been a nova while meeting all your criteria of documentation, recent relative to the modern age, and attempting to gain temporal power in politics through startling abilities; we can look at your assumptions. You make the assumption longevity would come automatically but have no scientific evidence to back it up. I bring this up not because I disagree with you but because that's the same sort of nit you're trying to pick with little more than opinion. Further, as you say, what you are to brute force others are to music. Find me a four year that can write a symphony and then I'll accept it was unlikely Mozart was a nova with a node the size of a grape. And gravity control? How many witches and sorcerors, all after the age of the printing press, would you like the names of?

Don't you feel this is getting a little ridiculous? You want contributions lasting for ages, yet with that set criteria you feel its appropriate to announce what I'd already said: there is and can be no positive proof. The very best we can achieve is with forensic DNA testing that will only prove select individuals whom we have samples for might have been novas. That's it. You clamore for proof of gods and elites but you're going to get to get Edisons, and no I'm not talking about the inventor. You want kings and popes but can you honestly say you're fit for either function?

In Napoleon you are making the mistake I refused to make when we began this discussion. That of insisting any historical personage considered to have worth in the modern age must have beene a nova. Look around you; for every Pax there hundreds if not thousands of novas that while going about their own lives and concerns, do little that would garner them acclaim were it not for the celebrity status we give novas in the modern world. For every Divas Mal there are hundreds like me. For every Splash there are hundreds like you.

Someone once pointed out that only 1 in 100 novas can actually withstand small arms fire - many of those gifted can still be drowned just to bring this back to Rasputin and twist the knife a little - yet by your arguments those people must not be novas because they lack the ability to shred tanks in their bare hands?