Aberrant RPG - Divergence

[Cin]

Read the fiction “with a single step” on the forum for another explanation of Divergence as well.

But, without further adieu…

Divergence

Divergence is a philosophy for both “baselines” and novas. At its core are a few simple beliefs…

1. “Novas are not superior to baselines, just different. Superiority and inferiority are a matter of perspective.”

2. “What is commonly referred to as Taint is simply Residual Quantum that remains in a Novas system after channeling a extreme amount of Quantum. It is possible to turn this Residual Quantum into something constructive.”

These basic beliefs are what allows baselines and novas to follow Divergence. Many baselines find it a comforting idea, especially after the fear instilled in them by high profile Terrats (like Shrapnel, for example) who constantly proclaim their superiority over baselines. This is not to say that novas are no longer “human” though. That is a matter of perspective as well. Some followers of Divergence believe themselves to no longer be “human” while others believe the opposite. Divergence makes no attempt to label novas as human or not. Regardless, the base belief is the same. Even if a follower of Divergence sees himself as no longer human, he would not believe himself as superior.

Divergence has been described by some as a “middle-ground” between Teras and Exemplarism (if you use Exemplarism in your game). It does not state that a nova necessarily is obliged to use his powers to help humanity, but by that same token it does not state that a nova is a superior being to baselines.

“Taint” in essence, is Quantum that remains in a nova’s system after he has channeled a large amount of Quantum. This Residual Quantum (Taint) remains in the system and, like pretty much anything else, too much of it in a person’s system can have adverse effects. This un-channeled Quantum manifests itself in a

a number of ways, usually in some undesirable form. The question is simple. If Taint is Residual Quantum, then can it be channeled into something productive? Answer: Yes. Though it is not a simple process.

Followers of Divergence fit into one of 3 main Archetypes…

Isolationist

The Isolationist believes that novas need to separate themselves from the baseline, for at least a while, to allow novas to explore themselves as a race and/or for a nova “culture” to develop. They tend to avoid contact with baselines, and when they do, they make it brief.

Powers: Anything that allows them to isolate themselves or at least pass among the baselines without drawing undue attention are common. These include the Dormancy Background, movement and concealment powers. In addition, mega-charisma and manipulation are common among them.

Aberrations: Always on (generally a concealment power) and other aberrations that force them to isolate themselves from baselines (like hideousness or disease carrier).

Reveling: By immersing themselves deeply into baseline culture for a period the Isolationist learns more of his (and his kind’s) past. Knowing the past and where you have been is necessary to develop further. Upon entering a Revel, the Isolationist puts as much distance as he can between himself and baselines, perfering to spend time among novas, absorbing the ambiance of his kind.

Initiative

The belief here is that a nova has these powers and so he ought to make use of them, generally toward relatively “good” ends. They tend to help others (especially novas) and are the most commonly seen followers of Divergence.

Powers: They tend to have powers that let them affect the world in very direct ways (elemental anima/mastery and most other suite powers, Q-Bolt, etc.) in addition to mega physical and mental attributes.

Aberrations: Hormonal and mental imbalances and other aberration that affect activity are the most comon among them.

Reveling: To enter a Revel, the initiative must put aside his normal impulse to use his powers and let some major even take place, either to himself or one that he could have directly prevented. The overwhelming desire to act or intervine is pushed to new level by this act of restraint. This usually causes them develop powers they “need” on a conscious or subconscious level. Reveling usually takes of the form or massive displays of power, because of which, they isolate themselves for safety reasons.

Individualist

This archetype seeks to explore their powers and stress the uniqueness of novas, not just from baselines, but from other novas as well. They are always seeking new abilities and “the next step” down their path, wherever it may lead.

Powers: They tend to have flash powers and very often have limits and extras on most of them They seek powers that allow them to change their form and appearance as well. Most mega attributes are also common.

Aberrations: Major changes to the body and thinking are comon. Usually something that makes them stand out like glowing, odd color, anima banner and the like.

Reveling: Triggering a Reveling is much more common for the Individualist. They tend to revel at odd times and do so much more often than others. The cause may be a deep desire to develop themselves that builds over time, or it may simply be the lack of change.

Mechanics

To effectivly use Divergence the novas must have either:

a Willpower rating of 6 or better

the Iron Will merit

or the Faith background (if you use it)

Divergence brings with it a new trait: Temporary and Permanent Divergence.

When a nova who follows Divergence has two or more points of Permanent Taint he can make a Willpower roll at a +1 difficulty. Each success allows the nova to convert a point of Permanent Taint into a point of Temporary Divergence. When he has accumulated Ten points of Temporary Divergence it becomes One point of Permanent Divergence (though any permanent aberrations gained from that Taint remain)

When a nova who follows Divergence encounters a situation in which he would normally gain Temporary Taint as a result of actions in line with his archetype, he can spend Ten points of Quantum to convert One point of Temporary Taint into a point of Temporary Divergence. This process is the nova channeling the Quantum through his body allowing the flow of Quantum to “pick” up some of the Residual Quantum (Taint) and channel it constructively.

Each point of Permanent Divergence adds a +1 Difficulty to all social rolls dealing with baselines. This is not due to the effects of Taint, but instead is due to the nova loosing a little of his ability to relate to baselines. This penalty is cumulative with those from Taint.

When a nova’s Permanent Divergence equals or exceeds his Willpower, he must make a Willpower roll with a +1 Difficulty for each point his Permanent Divergence exceeds his Willpower. If he fails the roll, he immediately Revels (without meeting the other criteria for Reveling as stated below, which can be very untimely). If he succeeds, there is no effect though the nova must make this roll each time he gains another point of Permanent Divergence and exceeds his Willpower.

Example:

Ingot has 6 Willpower and just gained her 6th point of Permanent Divergence. She must immediately make a Willpower roll. She succeeds and so Reveling is averted. When she gains her 7th point of Permanent Divergence she must roll again, this time at a +1 Difficulty.

Reveling

Reveling is a sort of controlled eruption during which Quantum surges through the nova’s body and mind, altering him in a myriad of ways. Through this process the nova uses the Residual Quantum (Taint) which he has been storing up and channels it through himself using his will/belief as a guiding force.

Anytime after the nova has gained Five Permanent Divergence points he may attempt to Revel. He must put himself in a situation that would trigger his Revel and spends 10 Quantum. He then rolls his Willpower against a Difficulty of +1 per 3 points of Permanent Divergence.

A botch indicates that the nova looses himself to the Reveling never to return (or some other equally horrible fate).

Failure means all Permanent Divergence points are lost and the character gains 1 Permanent Taint per 3 points of Permanent Divergence he had.

Success means that the nova has Reveled. Each point of Permanent Divergence converts to a number of experience points based on how many points of Permanent Divergence the novas was using during the Revel.

1-5 Permanent Divergence = 2 Experience points per point

6-8 Permanent Divergence = 3 Experience points per point

9-10 Permanent Divergence = 4 Experience points per point

During a Revel the nova may buy off aberrations at a cost determined by the ST (usually 5-15 exp).

The nova Revels for 1 week per 2 experience points he gains from the Reveling. During this time any sort of meaningful interaction with the nova is pretty much impossible.

Other Stuff

As it is right now, a nova may only Revel a number of time equal to his Quantum Rating. This is not known at present.

[Jager]

Mechanics stuff:

+1 Difficulty for every point of Permanent Divergeance? Sweet Mother of God!

Converting Permanant Taint to Temporary Divergeance? (Excuse me, my head just exploded!)

The "if you botch" is the usual given. It never happens unless the ST is really pissed with you.

Failure isn't much, really. You pick up a small amount of taint, which you immediately convert back to Temporary Divergeance.

Success is powerful. I take it you lose the + X difficulty when you convert the Divergeance to xps, right?

You can buy off aberrations? (Jager shakes his head). Can you buy off the difficulty penalty for high taint, as well?

When you force yourself into a Revel, how do you get away from the scene, if necessary?

The longest Revel is 10 months, so it is faster than Chrysalis. Why?

RPing stuff:

What is the philosophy? I hear what it isn't, but not what it is.

Why would an isolationist Archtype have Mega-Socials? Don't they avoid social interactions? Also, all the aberrations you mention are High Level ones.

Initiative's aberrations don't make much sense to me. Wouldn't 'flashier' physical aberrations be more in line?

Individual feels like a catch-all mystic category that anyone could worm their way into. It needs a stronger definition.

I take it Caliber was an Initiative, as it is the most thought out.

Basically, this seems too easy. No real penalties. It comes across as High School for Novas. Basic play is Elementary and then you graduate to a morally simple but similar environment with Divergeance. I don't feel that it is difficult enough for the benefits it provides.

In any game it is in, it should take over nova society. Mentors teach the Iron Will merit as an intro. It becomes a sort of Summer School were novas go off to work on their Divergeance training when their taint becomes too much.

Since Masters of Divergeance are equals in power (at the very minimum) to those who practice Teras and Chrysalis and much more socially acceptable, Teras goes away. Intiatives in particular lead the charge. It is that whole do good aspect that conflicts with most, if not all, of the Teras archtypical endpoints.

Contrary to what you have said, Divergeance isn't a co-existance feeling discipline. It doesn't have to be.

If you want to talk to me further about this and anything I might have misunderstood, please e-mail me.

Also, I like your story in the Fiction section. Please keep it up.

[Hugin]

Question.

Nova A has three points of permenent Taint. He starts up Divergence. He roles his willpower at +1 difficulty three seperate times, each time succeeding (not unlikely, you only have to have a Willpower of 5 to make this role most of the time) so he now has 0 Taint and 3 Permenent Divergence.

At 3 Taint he never had any aberrations. He gets one more taint. So, in regards to gaining aberrations is he considered to have 4 Taint (meaning that Divergence and Taint stack for purposes of determining aberrations) or does he actually now have only 1 Taint and no aberrations?

[Cin]

Jager

Mechanics stuff:

+1 Difficulty for every point of Permanent Divergeance? Sweet Mother of God!

What you talking in regards to? Social rolls with baselines? Yes.

Converting Permanant Taint to Temporary Divergeance? (Excuse me, my head just exploded!)

Eh?

The "if you botch" is the usual given. It never happens unless the ST is really pissed with you.

Failure isn't much, really. You pick up a small amount of taint, which you immediately convert back to Temporary Divergeance.

No, you cannot immediately convert it to Divergence since you gained it from failing a roll to Revel.

Success is powerful. I take it you lose the + X difficulty when you convert the Divergeance to xps, right?

Yes, because you have reached a new pleatau of understanding (and you got all the quantum out of your system)

You can buy off aberrations? (Jager shakes his head). Can you buy off the difficulty penalty for high taint, as well?

You can buy of aberrations at a cost determined by the ST. You cannot buy off the difficulity for high taint.

When you force yourself into a Revel, how do you get away from the scene, if necessary?

That’s the joy of RP.

The longest Revel is 10 months, so it is faster than Chrysalis. Why?

Because you are not so much as “evolving” as you are reaching a new understanding of yourself.

RPing stuff:

What is the philosophy? I hear what it isn't, but not what it is.

You’ll see a lot of this in the fic I am posting every day or so.

Why would an isolationist Archtype have Mega-Socials? Don't they avoid social interactions?

Thy isolate themselves from social interactions with baselines, not novas. They tend to get mega socials for use in persuading others to do the same and securing their right/place/safety to do so.

Also, all the aberrations you mention are High Level ones.

Initiative's aberrations don't make much sense to me. Wouldn't 'flashier' physical aberrations be more in line?

No, because their big thing is activity, not necessarily always using their powers.

,,

Individual feels like a catch-all mystic category that anyone could worm their way into. It needs a stronger definition.

It’s not the catch-all. They are by far the rarest of the Archetypes. It does allow a lot of personal freedom, but that is what a good ST is for.

I take it Caliber was an Initiative, as it is the most thought out.

Lucinda is an Initaitive, but I wouldn’t say it is the most thought out.

,,

Basically, this seems too easy. No real penalties. It comes across as High School for Novas. Basic play is Elementary and then you graduate to a morally simple but similar environment with Divergence. I don't feel that it is difficult enough for the benefits it provides.

There are problems with it, Like a limited number of time you can Revel, remember most noavs at Quantum 2-3 or so. Henceforth it can only help with a certain amount of taint. In addition, if you try to hold onto a lot of points of Permanent Divergence, then you risk becoming a walking time bomb, for example.

In any game it is in, it should take over nova society. Mentors teach the Iron Will merit as an intro. It becomes a sort of Summer School were novas go off to work on their Divergence training when their taint becomes too much.

That is what Lucinda hopes, but there are several factors working against it. Disbelief, distrust, other more established philosophies for example. In addition, you have to ACTUALLY BELUEVE in it for it to work. Not just “Whoa! I have a lot of taint. Lemme read the flyer on Divergence. Cool. Now my Taint is gone.” Also, I have never heard of merits like Iron Will being “taught” You either start with it or it takes some major event to harden a person’s resolve.

Since Masters of Divergence are equals in power (at the very minimum) to those who practice Teras and Chrysalis and much more socially acceptable, Teras goes away.

No. Teras does NOT go away. It is a philosophy. Only time will tell what survives. If more novas think Teras has got it right then the other philosophies will go away. You need to remember that there are more than just game mechanics here. There are beief structes as well.

Initiatives in particular lead the charge. It is that whole do good aspect that conflicts with most, if not all, of the Teras archtypical endpoints.

Umm.. okay.

Contrary to what you have said, Divergence isn't a co-existance feeling discipline. It doesn't have to be.

It is and it isn’t. it depends on your Archetype. Cin reaches co-existance, so you may take it that Divergence stands 100% for that.

James

Question.

Nova A has three points of permenent Taint. He starts up Divergence. He roles his willpower at +1 difficulty three seperate times, each time succeeding (not unlikely, you only have to have a Willpower of 5 to make this role most of the time) so he now has 0 Taint and 3 Permenent Divergence.

No. He only gets to make the roll to convert Permanent Taint into Temporary Divergence when he gains a new point of Permanent Taint AND has at 2 or more points of Permanent Taint he may roll. I thought I put that in there, but I guess I missed the line when typing it all.

At 3 Taint he never had any aberrations. He gets one more taint. So, in regards to gaining aberrations is he considered to have 4 Taint (meaning that Divergence and Taint stack for purposes of determining aberrations) or does he actually now have only 1 Taint and no aberrations?

Taint and Divergence do not stack in regards to aberrations.

By all means, bring forth questions if you have them.

[Sakurako Hino]

I have had a chance to read this as well, and the rules are alright by me, but shouldn't they just be swapping of things found in the Teragen book? A philosophical road shouldn't be easy. I had been thinking of an alternative of my own, and here's the penalty if you slip. Let's say E-Chan has been following her path up to roughly 4 levels, and she Fs up royally. She get's slammed for it. She has to start from scratch, and gains four permanent taint that CANT BE SHED. Of course, I've been known to overbalbnce, and I don't intend on dropping yet another "alternative" on the people here. I do like Divergence, but it just needs more. I don't have the teragen book, so I can't caompare Divergence to it mechanics wise. As for the philosophies of Divergence, I like them, but they also need more filling in. This is your idea, not mine, and quite frankly, my mind is on other things at the moment. I'll see how this one turns out.

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Cin:

Taint and Divergence do not stack in regards to aberrations.

By all means, bring forth questions if you have them.

OK, still trying to make sure I have this down right.

Nova A, has two Permenent Taint (PT), gets involved in Divergence. Makes the willpower role (Nova A has 6 Willpower, averages 2.4 successes per roll) twice. Now Nova A has O PT and 2 Temporary Divergence (TD), no aberrations. Nova A receives 2 PT when purchasing Q5 Tainted. Again, Nova A makes his Divergence rolls. Now Nova A has 0 PT and 4 TD. Lets say Nova A continues on this path, purchasing a few more dots of power, say Quantum Imprint, for Tainted cost and each time Nova A makes his rolls. He now has 0 PT and 6 TD. Am I correct? Now, since Permenent Taint and Temporary Divergence don't stack, and the Nova never hit 4 PT, Nova A has never gotten a singler aberration, when normally he would have been subjected to 2 minor aberrations and 1 medium aberration?

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anywhere it written that a Nova picked up Aberrations due to either Temporary Divergence or Permenent Divergence. The only problems that occur are +1 Social Penalties.

So, more questions.

1. Do the Social Penalties (+1 for every PD) disappear after Reveling?

2. Effectively a Nova can channel 50 PT into 5 PD without acquiring any aberrations?

3. Does anything happen if you botch a Willpower role attempting to turn Permenent Taint into Temporary Divergence?

[Cin]

”OK, still trying to make sure I have this down right.”

No problem. Thank you very much for your questions. It is proof reading for me and pointing out things left out of my notes. I appreciate it very much.

“Nova A, has two Permenent Taint (PT), gets involved in Divergence. Makes the willpower role (Nova A has 6 Willpower, averages 2.4 successes per roll) twice. Now Nova A has O PT and 2 Temporary Divergence (TD), no aberrations.”

Okay, first of all a follower of Divergence can ONLY make a Willpower roll to turn Permanent Taint into Temporary Divergence when he has at least 2 Permanent Taint AND has just gained a point of Permanent Taint. He can only make the roll ONCE for each time he gains a point of Permanent Taint AND has at least 2 Permanent Taint.

”Nova A receives 2 PT when purchasing Q5 Tainted. Again, Nova A makes his Divergence rolls. Now Nova A has 0 PT and 4 TD.”

Same as above. One thing to remember though is that if the nova picks up more than 1 PT at the same time he still only gets to roll ONCE to convert it. Additionally, a follwer of Divergence cannot buy tainted powers or traits (it is the short easy way and you really don’t learn much from it).

”Lets say Nova A continues on this path, purchasing a few more dots of power, say Quantum Imprint, for Tainted cost and each time Nova A makes his rolls. He now has 0 PT and 6 TD. Am I correct?”

Same as above.

”Now, since Permenent Taint and Temporary Divergence don't stack, and the Nova never hit 4 PT, Nova A has never gotten a single aberration, when normally he would have been subjected to 2 minor aberrations and 1 medium aberration?”

The nova would have never hit 4 PT, but he DID have those various points of PT on him at various times and would still get any aberrations from them. i.e. He had 2 PT and them rolled. Even if he converted it to TD he still would have any aberrations that have 2 PT would have given him because he WAS at 2 PT. Understand?

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anywhere it written that a Nova picked up Aberrations due to either Temporary Divergence or Permenent Divergence. The only problems that occur are +1 Social Penalties.

A nova would not pick up aberrations for PD, but he would still get aberrations for the PT he head each time he gained it. See below.

So, more questions.

1. Do the Social Penalties (+1 for every PD) disappear after Reveling?

Yes.

2. Effectively a Nova can channel 50 PT into 5 PD without acquiring any aberrations?

A nova cannot channel PT into TD till he has at least 2 PT. Even if he successfully channeled the Taint he still was at 2PT and would still get any aberrations from it.

3. Does anything happen if you botch a Willpower role attempting to turn Permanent Taint into Temporary Divergence?

D’Oh! Another thing I forgot. Yes. If you botch you gain a 1PT that cannot be instantly converted with another Willpower roll (because it was gained through botching a roll to convert taint in the first place.) and you still gain an aberrations from it as normal. You CAN try to convert it along with your other PT the NEXT time you pick up ANOTHER point of PT (unless you gained it through botching channeling or reveling rolls too. Heh.)

A few notes… In actual play the taint tended to build up a bit. Yes, you AVERAGE 2.6 successes with a 6 Willpower, but it didn’t work out that way too often. And, keep in mind, you generally had to roll pretty well to get rid of all of your PT. Novas usually had 2 PT due to the fact they could usually only convert a point or two when a roll was actually successful.

[Hugin]

Note, are you aware that you do not gain aberrations until you have 4 Permenent Taint? Having the requisite 2 Taint for Divergence and being able to role everytime you hit 2 Taint can actually mean that the character can avoid ever actually getting an aberration even though they have racked up a large amount of Permenent Taint.

Interesting about a Divergent not being able to purchase Tainted Powers, that is something that should have been included in the intitial write up. Had that been the case this would have been an ubertwinkfest nightmare.

Since the Divergent cannot purchase Tainted Powers, where does the Taint come from? How did Caliber actually get her Taint to transfer into Temporary Divergence? From botching Quantum Maxing roles? You would have to botch nearly 10 times to get 1 point of Permenent Taint, and you need 10 points of Permenent Taint to get 1 point of Permenent Divergence. Caliber has 2 minor aberrations, so she had at least Taint 5 at some point. So, in order for her to have gotten the requisite 5 dots of Permenent Divergence she had to botch a whole lot of rolls. I understand that you can spend Quantum to translate Temporary Taint that is occuring to Temporary Divergence, but it is pretty expensive, especially considering you've just spent your Quantum in points trying to Max. So, in order to get the necessary points you are looking at a hella lot of botched rolls.

Now, why exactly does the social difficulty adjustment go away after attaining Revelry?

You mention that you can only roll once even if you gain more than one dot of Permenent Taint at one time. If a Divergent cannot purchase tainted abilities, powers, etc, how could you gain more than one dot of Permenent Taint at a time?

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

OK. My willpower is 10, my luck is 5. Spending a point of willpower, I average 7 succ per willpower roll, or 6 succ with the +1 diff.

Every time I get to perm taint 3, I convert all my perm taint to temp Divergence (TD). That is all I do. I don't try to avoid taint or convert temp taint other than that.

Even at Quantum=10, It seems very unlikely that I will ever have even one point of perm Divergence (my TD will be 7 to 9). And I will never have any aberrations.

Is my reasoning wrong somewhere?

[Cin]

Note, are you aware that you do not gain aberrations until you have 4 Permenent Taint? Having the requisite 2 Taint for Divergence and being able to role everytime you hit 2 Taint can actually mean that the character can avoid ever actually getting an aberration even though they have racked up a large amount of Permenent Taint.

Lucinda always got Taint from Maxing Out. If you don’t use that then you simply raise the minimum Taint to 4 before you can attempt to convert it. It was NOT meant as a way to totally cheat Aberrations.

Interesting about a Divergent not being able to purchase Tainted Powers, that is something that should have been included in the intitial write up. Had that been the case this would have been an ubertwinkfest nightmare.

You lost me there.

Since the Divergent cannot purchase Tainted Powers, where does the Taint come from?

Maxing out and botching rolls.

How did Caliber actually get her Taint to transfer into Temporary Divergence?

Maxing out and botching rolls.

From botching Quantum Maxing roles? You would have to botch nearly 10 times to get 1 point of Permenent Taint, and you need 10 points of Permenent Taint to get 1 point of Permenent Divergence. Caliber has 2 minor aberrations, so she had at least Taint 5 at some point. So, in order for her to have gotten the requisite 5 dots of Permenent Divergence she had to botch a whole lot of rolls. I understand that you can spend Quantum to translate Temporary Taint that is occuring to Temporary Divergence, but it is pretty expensive, especially considering you've just spent your Quantum in points trying to Max. So, in order to get the necessary points you are looking at a hella lot of botched rolls.

Apparently we use some on the optional rules from the Player’s Guide (I guess). Asche should be here (since he’s the ST in the game this is from), but since he’s not, I’ll do my best. Cin usually picked up 2-4 points of temporary taint each time she maxed out. In addition, we started receiving low level, permanent aberrations at 2 permanent taint.

The there were two reasons for the whole “cannot purchase tainted powers/traits” thing. First it would basically allow a follower of Divergence to save a lot of points by buying tainted powers and then, ASAP converting it away. Second, it didn’t really fit into Divergence too well. You can simply allow them to buy tainted powers working off the “it is exploring what it is to be a nova” perspective.

Now, why exactly does the social difficulty adjustment go away after attaining Revelry?

,,

I stated this before. The nova, after Reveling, reaches a new plateau of understanding. He regains his clarity and, now that he has all of the quantum flushed from his system, can relate to the baselines.

You mention that you can only roll once even if you gain more than one dot of Permanent Taint at one time. If a Divergent cannot purchase tainted abilities, powers, etc, how could you gain more than one dot of Permanent Taint at a time?

I didn’t say there was a way, I just sated that you only get one roll for each instance you gain a Permant Taint, even if it is more than one. It helps maintain balance.

Divergence was not meant to be the end all solution to taint. In play testing you still got aberrations, though you usually avoided the really sever ones. Holding onto a lot of Permanent Divergence was dangerous two, especially if you fail your Willpower roll and Revel in a bad place. The rolls were meant to be relatively difficult, but not impossiable.

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Cin:


Interesting about a Divergent not being able to purchase Tainted Powers, that is something that should have been included in the intitial write up. Had that been the case this would have been an ubertwinkfest nightmare.

You lost me there.

Basically, if you were to allow a Divergent to purchase powers and quantum tainted, they then would be able to simply turn that permenent taint into temporary divergence before reaching taint 4, thus avoiding all aberrations and and basically only ever having to pay half price for any powers or quantum. Thus this would be the stuff of dreams to a power gaming little twink.

Thank you for answering my questions. I appreciate it. After having read your answers it would appear to me that this system would be heavily dependent on running a whole gamut of rules options and house rules that we are not aware of. That being the case it isn't something that I think would be effective for widespread usage as it requires a massive overhauling of many aspects of the game.

Thanks for your time.

[Cin]

I just put it up here so anybody who wanted to use it could, not to try to get a group consensus really.

To my knowledge almost all of the rules regarding taint, aberrations and maxing out are optional rules in the Players Guide. As far as anything else, it is easily adaptable to pretty much any games, not matter what rules you use.

[ 09-06-2002: Message edited by: Cin ]

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Cin:
I just put it up here so anybody who wanted to use it could, not to try to get a group consensus really.

[ 09-06-2002: Message edited by: Cin ]

That's cool. I was simply curious as to the mechanics since you had introduced it in the IC forums. I understand that most of those optional rules are in the books, however I have spent less effort commiting those rules to memory since I don't use them, as they are optional and I would suspect that is the same for many people. Sounds like this is a device that works well in your TT but doesn't translate well into a scenario where things work a little looser.

[Cin]

Thanks. Also, pretty much every Aberrant TT game I've run into uses quite a few of the optional rules. I dunno if it is just the area I'm in or what, but I think it is prolly semi common.

[Sakurako Hino]

Sort of sucks we're cemented in canon here, but I'd bet Endeavor would fit in the last category of Divergent. It sorta fits her style.

[T-dev]

Interesting stuff:however, I do have problems with it, mostly of the philosophical or conceptual bent. So if you expect me to dissect Divergence or to quote rules to you, then you'll be disappointed. Fistly I think we have to examine taint itself. Taint follows in the whole White Wolf concept of the price of power. Almost every game they produce has something like this (ie loss of humanity, paradox, banality, etc). The base idea that White Wolf games hold is that character types of a certain power level or bent are in a sense "unnatural" & the world around them reacts to that.

Along this vein, one thought I've never heard addressed is why nova's have taint & stalwarts do not ( at least I don't think they get taint). Could it be that Mal's tinkering has warped them along with giving them power?

The point is this Divergence does manage taint. I don't think anyone will argue that. Should this be so? Taint without teeth has pushed the game very far outside of the canon. Teras doesn't do this because you still have the inhumanity issue & channeling taint in Teras is actually harder I think. In Teras I give up my humanity to deal with taint:in Divergence what do I give up?

And lastly, this is the big philosophical issue, taint should be more then just a problem to be solved. It represents the terrible side of our icons, gods ,

& monsters. To making it something merely to "deal" with & move on is to strip the darkness from the mythic side of the game

[Cin]

Wow. You are totally missing the point. This isn’t something to just “deal with” taint. There are several things to take into consideration.

1. This is from a game with excellent players.

2. The game this originates from uses a lot of the optional rules and a couple of house rules (what game doesn’t) and so it is HEAVILY modified to be presented here in a form that does not incorporate the optional rules. In addition, certain restrictions and things were never placed on it because the players do not abuse it. Rules like low level aberrations at 2 Permanent Taint and medium aberrations at 4 Permanent Taint for example. So you still get aberrations and Divergence is not a solution to taint by a long shot. Any nova who is trying to hold onto Divergence for a powerful revel is a ticking time-bomb.

3. This VAST majority of people who follow Divergence CANNOT even channel the taint. It is a philosophy first and that is the major contribution to the world. There are 3-5 novas who have successfully Reveled (including Cin).

4. Who you perceive taint is all a point of view. If YOU choose to look at it as the “the terrible side of our icons, gods , & monsters. “ then that is your choice. Many analytical people look at it as a problem to be solved.

5. I SPECIFICALLY made the channeling of taint for Divergence HARDER than Teras. The rolls are harder and it cost more to turn temp taint into temp Divergence (7 quantum per point by Teras compared to the 10 quantum per point with divergence)

I’m sure there’s more for me to say, but I am eating and feeling quite “bleh” at the moment.

[Asche]

Hey Lucinda...

I have a request for you. Check your Op-Net text mail slot

Then Maybe I will help you with some of this discussion.

[Wold fo used PM but alas, it is down]

[Sakurako Hino]

Cin: I think the whole thing is, is that we aren't in that group. I think about Divergence and it's a good idea, but I feel it needs to "brew" a bit. Quite honestly I feel the whole thing was put out too quickly. Don't take it as a slight to you in the least. I sort of like having you around. You putting any effort into Divergence shows you're a creative and intelligent person. I understand where you're coming from. We all want to defend our creations. I resemble that remark... I shouldn't talk.

[Roslyn 'Pump' Kluesner]

[ 09-15-2002: Message edited by: Roslyn 'Pump' Kluesner ]

[Cin]

I know this isn't my TT grpoup. People here were instested so I rushed and posted it.

[Sakurako Hino]

Quote:

Originally posted by Cin:
I know this isn't my TT grpoup. People here were instested so I rushed and posted it.

I just don't think it was "ready for prime time". I think we both sort of agree on that. At least that's what I've gathered. It was a good and honest effort, though.

[ 09-15-2002: Message edited by: Endeavor ]

[Asche]

This seems to be beating a dead horse at this moment but...In Cin's defense, she has worked out the bugs "IN GAME" for our TT group. Of course, as mentioned, we all understand where we are all coming from individually and none of the players involved will "munchkinize" if there is a loophole or exploit the rules.

Also, Lucinda and I have been rather busy and distracted lately. Please forgive and forget. Perhaps you may see a revision later as we allow for a varied amount of interpretations and misunderstandings.

I hope to see you all more often shortly.

[ 09-15-2002: Message edited by: Asche Lonn ]

[Jager]

Asche Lonn, is the Aberrant War still 'going' to happen in your game? How does Divergeance play into it?

[Asche]

Jager:

Regarding the Aberrant war. Yes and No. It depends on the actions of some select players to some small degree. In short, there was some research done too late that could have lessened the Aberrant War or prevented it altogether. The "researchers" (I dont want to give up too much details for players that lurk here) had the discoveries sent back in time to hopefully help prevent the War. .I know that sounds kinda campy, but I deliberately left details out both to protect my storyline from players reading this and to not go too far off canon, as most ideas that are slightly different tend to be classified.

Divergence has little if anything to do with those events.

Divergence is really getting very little "airtime", so to speak, and is not really spreading as fast as some would think, or hope for that matter. But to answer briefly, Divergence, without the details mentioned above, can not really impact the developement of the problems that eventually lead up to the Aberrant War. I have based alot of the acceptance in my game of Divergence on the feelings conveyed here in this forum. (As I also did with the start up of discussions of the Nova Legislation.)

[T-dev]

Firstly let me say that I agree that,Cin you've done some good work here & my comments were not meant as an attack. I do still have problems with Divergence & as I said these are philosophical in nature. You are making a good effort & showing lots of creativity. I may have missed the point. I will leave you with 3 questions.

No 1: Why is reveling quicker then chrysalis?

No 2: If divergence is truely a nova exploring their difference from baselines or each other (ie. diverging) then why does the social penalty go away? Being different causes alienation. A philosophy will not solve that.

No 3: What does a character give up in divergence? Teras at least sets a precedent that in order to deal with taint something must be given. For terat's it's their humanity. Game balance requires that there be a price for gain.

I do like some of the concepts in divergence really. I'm working on a far future alternative setting for Aberrant & it's given me a starting point for alternatives to Teras. Thanks for your hard work

[Jager]

I just thought of a way to make Divergeance work in a 'common' setting.

All novas are different, right?

Novas can start out at different powerlevels and with different reactions to taint.

Not all novas can use Divergeance. Infact, most can't. All of Cin's converts suffer from her "adverse reaction" to taint. They have aberrations and adverse social reactions from baselines much sooner. They are 'flawed' from the basic systems point of view. On the otherhand, this flaw allows them to channel taint in a new and unique way. Divergeance.

If a ST gave the players the option that you could work taint as it is presented in the basic book, or you could work it the way Cin's group does, what would 99% of the players say? They would take the easier road. Only afterwards is the option for Divergeance made available.

I still think it is too easy on Permanent Taint, but that is window dressing. From a story perspective, I like the idea of a subspecies of novas that handle taint differently.

After all, isn't anything possible in the nova age?

Maybe Cin's group can't wrap their minds around Teras.? Maybe this is their subspecies' answer to that dilemma? For most of us, this would be a dead end, taint-wise. Sometimes that happens, especially in scientific research.

What do the rest of ya'll think?

[Twist]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
What do the rest of ya'll think?

Well I think it's a very interesting idea. What you are suggesting is a system where Divergence is only available to those Novas most vulnerable to the warping effects of Taint and Chrysalis to the rest. Right?

Just checking I'm understanding.

I'm working on a similar idea but not using Divergence and it isn't quite the same. In mine Chrysalis is only available to novas with an average sensitivity to taint. There's a second method of channelling taint (that I'm working on) that can only be used by those novas who are highly taint resistant and the unfortunate novas who are highly prone to Taint simply cannot channel it into a useful form and are basically doomed and it's this final group that make the Aberrant War inevitable.

It is important to note that *none* of this is known in char because the differences are purely mechanical and not obviously visible and either state can be achieved by following Teras.

Becka

[Jager]

Mostly yes. A good number of novas can't use Chrysalis, either. It is more of a mindset thing than a genetic thing. Some are just doomed to genetic extinction.

A good friend of mine ran a game (that I wasn't in, damn it) were the whole world was approaching the apocolypse and it could not be stopped. The Present Age was dying and a New Age was being born. The purpose of the game was for the players to save as much as they could. One managed to save his entire home city.

The motto is: Victory and success can vary widely, depending on the situation.

Good luck with the Japanese. What is the time differential between the East Coast (USA) and England? About 4 hours?

[Sherazahde]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
What do the rest of ya'll think?

No.

[Twist]

Originally posted by Jager:

Mostly yes. A good number of novas can't use Chrysalis, either. It is more of a mindset thing than a genetic thing. Some are just doomed to genetic extinction.

Which, though I know it sounds terrible, is as it should be.

A good friend of mine ran a game (that I wasn't in, damn it) were the whole world was approaching the apocolypse and it could not be stopped. The Present Age was dying and a New Age was being born. The purpose of the game was for the players to save as much as they could. One managed to save his entire home city.

The motto is: Victory and success can vary widely, depending on the situation.

wow! now that sounds like it was a cool game!

Good luck with the Japanese. What is the time differential between the East Coast (USA) and England? About 4 hours?

Thanks for the good wishes.

4 or 5. I'm not sure exactly.

Becka

[ 09-17-2002: Message edited by: Twist ]

[Jager]

... and they got to run in the same world 400 years later. New Gods, landmasses had shifted and everywhere the ruins of 'lost civilizations'.

Later in the game, the "Vanishing City" reappeared and began conquering the surrounding area. It was the first time the player realized his scheme had worked. That GM is a master. If I recall the story correctly, the player got up and danced. Even though the city he saved was now the 'Enemy' of the campaign.

I love the idea of that kind of continuity.

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:


What do the rest of ya'll think?

I think the entire philosophy is flawed and the system is not true to the spirit of the game.

[Fortune's Son]

No.

I had a long and vaguely humorous explanation behind that statement but realized it might be perceived by as cruelly scathing.

IC that response is called for on occasion but rarely OOC.

[Jager]

Damn fellas, I hope I am never drowning when either one of you is the only one around. Don't even try to give someone a hand or an out.

I probably doesn't matter. I haven't heard a peep out of Cin or Asche Lonn all week. They probably went on to greener pastures.

Have a nice day.

[Hugin]

What, I'm not allowed to have an opinion? I didn't like it. I asked questions, made comments and was basically told I was wrong. Fine, Cin has an opinion, so do I. Don't come down on me simply because I don't agree with something. Some very, very important issues have not been adressed with Divergence, they don't look like they would be and it is too dependent on a number of house rules.

It works for their game, that is great, and I hope they have a really nice time with it. I am not saying they should stop using it TT, but in the forums, in our group consensus forums, it looks like it isn't wanted. What is so bad about that? Sometimes the things you create are not beloved by other people. I killed off Ripsaw because I realized he didn't come across well in the forums. I have talked to someone who doesn't like Michael. I accept that. This is no big deal.

If someone doesn't want to hang around because their character or their TT idea isn't accepted with accolades that is really just too damn bad. Fact is, I don't think Cin and Asche have taken off for that reason. I actually think that Cin accepted the comments for what they were, opinions, and was willing to let it drop. If I remember correctly Asche did state that he and Cin had a fairly busy schedule going right now.

I really really don't like getting flack simply because I expressed an opinion.

[Sherazahde]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
Damn fellas, I hope I am never drowning when either one of you is the only one around. Don't even try to give someone a hand or an out.

I probably doesn't matter. I haven't heard a peep out of Cin or Asche Lonn all week. They probably went on to greener pastures.

Have a nice day.

Nor do I. That's freaking uncalled for. Something was introduced into the IC forums that would have drastically altered the environment. I know you like trying to work absolutely positively everybody's stuff into the world, and that you seemingly enjoy that role, but most of the core players didn't want Divergence on the IC forums. Most of us have problems with it in one fashion or other.

Very freaking poor analogy by the way. Comparing the discussion of including a house rule into a common environment where many people are against it, to a single person refusing to help someone who might lose their life. Deliberately meant to guilt trip us. Very, very bad form.

[ 09-18-2002: Message edited by: Sherazahde ]

[Jager]

Perhaps if I had recieved more than just one word answers to my suggestion, I would have been in a kinder mood.

James, I was looking for any way to fix this so it could become part of things here. I asked you and the others to work with myself and anyone else who was interested to look for alternate solutions. I asked for help and I got "Its broken and can't be fixed". I didn't realize the situation was that inflexable.

You have no suggestions on how it can be fixed to work to your satisfaction? None?

Jack gave me a "No" followed by a faint slapdown for even trying to work with a fellow gamer.

I don't feel I deserve that.

Sherazahde, I guess Twist's promising response fooled me into thinking anything could be done with this. I was expressing my disagreement with Jack and James. I was trying to help someone, put forth an idea, and did not feel that I deserved such a curt response.

Forgive me for not considering comprimise a dirty word.

The drowning person was me, so I feel it works. If you actually have some deep-seeded trauma associated with drowning, I do apologize. Next time I will strand myself in Death Valley and need a ride. Better?

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
Perhaps if I had recieved more than just one word answers to my suggestion, I would have been in a kinder mood.

James, I was looking for any way to fix this so it could become part of things here. I asked you and the others to work with myself and anyone else who was interested to look for alternate solutions. I asked for help and I got "Its broken and can't be fixed". I didn't realize the situation was that inflexable.
You have no suggestions on how it can be fixed to work to your satisfaction? None?

You got my answer. That is how I feel about the situation. I asked several questions of Cin, and got the answers. I looked at the responses given to other poster's questions. After all of that, my opinion was that Divergence doesn't fit in Aberrant and is poorly designed. My opinion. Nothing more.

I've sent you an email directly with a slightly more expanded response.

But here, my response is I don't think we should be adopting someone's house rules to make their house system work.

[Fortune's Son]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
Jack gave me a "No" followed by a faint slapdown for even trying to work with a fellow gamer.

It was not meant as a slap down. I never weighed in on the issue either for or against because I wasn't here. Now I have.

On Divergence... From my point of view the topic was been talked into the ground while I was out of the country. Nearly everything that could be said about it was said and not by me. The only thing that struck me as funny reading it afterwards were the discussions from both sides believing they had the majority. Personally, I would have just put up the poll and proved the will of the majority once and for all.

No, I am not for Divergence.

No, I don't feel its quite ready for prime time in its current form.

No, I don't have anything startling to say that hasn't already been said by multiple people.

No, I don't feel the need to stand on a soapbox and repeat things already said just to see it with my name attached to the post.

No, I don't have a problem with Cin.

She made a minor social faux pax and then went on with her life. I do ~not~ require her to wail apologies to the board. I ~do~ understand that Divergence is her personal creation with assistance from her troupe. I ~imagine~ that as its a personal creation and a finished product in her mind she might feel a need to defend it.

Everybody can just get over it now.

Quick sum up: you got a one word answer because that's what it took to convey my position. Yes, I initially had a post that went into great detail on why I didn't like it, how the matter would have been better approached but I decided it might be construed by Cin or her troupe as a renewal of hostilities.

It wasn't about you or working with another gamer. I wouldn't have bothered to weigh in for or against if the matter hadn't been brought up again. There is one other issue but I've sent the email.

[ 09-18-2002: Message edited by: Jack Chance ]