opnet [OpNet] What a load of crap.

[Wakinyan]

Every species on this rock kills members of its own species. Whether for mating, food territory whatever. I am starting to get tired of this Kumbaya one race crap. Don’t get me wrong I don’t want to go around offing everyone but let’s be serious. Just because we share a node doesn’t mean we are all supposed to get along perfectly. I have friends and I have enemies I have accepted this. I will cherish those who I will and those I hate will feel my claws if they cross me.

But to be honest of course this preaching of do not kill your Nova brothers and sisters doesn’t really hold up in the real world anyway does it? I am curious out of all the Nova deaths in the past 16 years how many have been at the hands of fellow Novas? Most I would bet.

We shouldn’t kid ourselves with this big group hug circle jerk crap anymore.

[Preston]

Self-governance.

Welcome to the world of Teras. We are each our own master, living our lives as we see fit. And, just like the baselines they so despise (or, perhaps just disregard), we kill each other.

Humanity does cruel things to itself everyday. Glad to see we have become so good at imitating that one aspect of them.

We are free to ignore the society and its rules. Look were it is leading us.

[Ulysses Bailey]

This reminds me of a quote from Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. that seems rather applicable right now:

It may be true that the law cannot make a man love me, but it can keep him from lynching me, and I think that's pretty important.

Be they baseline made or nova made, laws will serve an important purpose for us. Especially because we don't all get along.

[Tarot]

Put me down for supporting the Baileys and Preston Sr's of the world in most ways. I don't need to get along with all of you perfectly. And if anything, the point that I can't get along perfectly with some of the more extreme people here has been driven in like a nail through my head over the last couple of days. But I don't need to get along perfectly with all of you and you don't need to get along perfectly with me.

We just need to get along in that little space where what we need overlaps. That's all. Mostly just a little mutual respect.

I've been noticing when people start getting militant around here they talk about what they believe and how they feel about believing that. That's cool. No problem with that at all. Knowing those little things helps me figure out what it takes to give a little respect where its due. Oils the social machine. Plus I've found a couple of people here that I really like and can't wait to meet in real life sometime. Where it doesn't seem to go over well is when there's a disagreement with what people want and particularly when they want it right now!

I'm still thinking it over but there's got to be a better way than some of what happens here. If I said, "Walker would you come over and show me some cool landscapes to paint for a job I'm doing? I'll buy the sandwiches and beer" I think he'd show up at my door without speeches on the uselessness of money. If I told Preston, "I'm putting together a showing with the central theme of 'Law' and need your thoughts on a particular piece" I think he'd return my phone calls and talk to me honestly even if he didn't like the implication of the piece. Within a couple of days here Juri offered to do some art work for me gratis, just a little something from artist to another and that's something she could get major bucks for. When I needed a little perspective on something that happened to me a lot of you gave it up and were pretty honest with me about it.

If I disagree with something I'm going to say so and if its an open conversation I'll even say why. It doesn't mean I hate the person that said it, think they deserve to die or get locked up. It means I respect them enough to talk openly.

Just wanted to drop that out there.

[Walker]

By Jove I think Tarot has come up with Nova economic theory. Makes sense to me, there's so few of us that we might as well use a varient barter system. It is a robust and flexible way of doing things and reaches down to the core of all economic theory. You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. Works as long as we are honest with each other and put aside personal differences of ethics and such.

[Hugin]

It is what I've been doing for some time now.

[Tarot]

Quote:

Originally posted by Walker:
Works as long as we are honest with each other and put aside personal differences of ethics and such.

I've seen it in action at the Amp Room. Utopian's don't dance just with Utopian's. Terats buying drinks for non-terats. And... I'm going to be vague here because its personal for somebody... I saw someone crying for Blakely. It was kind of surprising that she'd even know him let alone for it to be personal enough to cry for him.

[Dreamer]

Well, the key problem with the idea that trust will solve everything is the mind.People will do many things but trusting everyone is not one of those things. I do not trust many people on many key levels,and I think if we were all truly honest we would all say that.

[Jager]

Dreamer, it works like this:

I do something for someone gratis. No strings. I personally believe we should help one another. Later on, if they ask for my help, I give it, but say that at a later date they return the favor in their area of expertise.

I often use this to exchange favors and to get different novas to hang out for a bit and get to know one another.

Using Tarot as an example:

Tarot loses his dog and asks for help finding it. I show up and help.

Later on, Tarot asks me to come over and fix his solar panels. I say "okay, but later on I am going to need your help on something." If Tarot says "Cool", I come over and help.

Even later, a buddy of mine decides he wants to give another nova a masterful piece of art that says something special. I call Tarot and ask for the favor.

Tarot and I have established a rapport based on our abilities and sense of community. Tarot gets to meet a few other novas as he does his thing as well.

Got it?

If I help out and later the nova doesn't want to be bound by a favor, or later renegs, so be it. I let the word get around and leave it at that. No one has to play if they don't want to.

What have I lost by trusting someone? A small bit of effort and a little bit of time. I can live with that, especially since it usually earns me someone I can work with for a long, long time.

[Tarot]

Jager's got it.

The trust doesn't have to be perfect in every way either, Dreamer. It only needs to be good enough in that small spot where what someone "needs" overlaps into what someone else "needs".

[Jager]

Dreamer, sometimes you even need to trust the people you know will lie to you, or let you down. No matter what you see, that step is both necessary and obvious.

Even though it costs you.

Life surprises us all the time.

[Dreamer]

Jager, you are either truly blind or truly lucky. I could elborate on that statement,but truthfully,I do not see any reasons to dash your dreams,no ater how foolish they are.

[Jager]

Quote:

Originally posted by Dreamer:
Jager, you are either truly blind or truly lucky.

Perhaps I really give a damn enough to take some risks?

Quote:

Originally posted by Dreamer:
I could elborate on that statement,but truthfully,I do not see any reasons to dash your dreams,no ater how foolish they are.

No. Please elaborate, Dreamer. The odds of you dashing my dreams are so ... well, non-existant that I am willing to take the chance if you are willing to spill the type.

[Dreamer]

What are my abilities worth to you? What are yours worth to me?What are mine worth to me?And what are yours worth to you? Can you explain to me how people will agree on all levels what their own selves are worth?

There is an old saying. Two people are sitting next to a river.One has lived by the river all his life,another is from far away. The visitor asks the native, is the water cold,or hot here? The native looks to him,and says, it is rather warm. The Visitor then goes into the river,only to run out yelling how cold it was.

Now who is right,and who is wrong?Is the river cold,or is it warm?It is both,as the idea of hot,or cold is based largely on individual point of views. Or in other words what is the worth of water next to the Nile,and what is the worth of water in the middle of the Gobi?

[Tarot]

Your abilities are worth what I'm willing to do in order to obtain them in the moment when nothing else seems to do for me. Or I reevaluate and find I didn't really need them after all and tell you, "Thanks but I'm good." It still seems like a pretty simple idea.

This reaction is exactly what I see in the militants. The need for validation.

Learn to live.

[Dreamer]

And that objective standard is money. It may come in many forms but the best one we have found is an free form of trust that is said to be worth a variable amount of services and goods,based largely on how stable the geopolitical power who made said promises are.

[Tarot]

So I can find your worth by checking the Devries opsite? Right. Its always the simplest ideas people have trouble grasping.

Economics isn't my strength anyway. Enjoy the dance.

[Dreamer]

You at least know your weak points. But even with money there is room for variables on the part of any party in the deal. I could want more than you have,or are willing to give for my services. The world is far from simple,and novas do not make it any less complex.

[Jager]

Money?

And, if you have enough money to meet all your needs, what then? You don't deal?

I see it this way:

Your talents are worth a certain deal to you, and a certain deal to me.

For instance, I might want to have a glimpse of the future right now, or I might want to save it when there is some stuff I really want to know.

Now, I might ask for some information that you don't want to give me, but those are the risks we all run when we congress with others.

Not everyone is like you Dreamer.

We don't

a) know everything,

have a close circle of drones ... I mean friends ( ) who do whatever they are told to do and who have every power imaginable,

c) and all the resources we will ever need.

Some of us have to play nice with the rest of the world, trust folks, and make deals.

[Long]

I only deal in Cash when it comes to baselines, as my current contract proves. Because they can't do as I do, they ask me to value my own worth fairly. I usually do unless the negotiator is an idiot. As for dealing with other novas, when I don't do things out of charity it's "You scratch mine, I'll scratch yours." That method works with most novas. Yeah it takes trust, but you've gotta be willing to take risks if you want to truly live.

[Dreamer]

Jager, you missed the whole point. You just show off how blind you really are.

If you think I know everything then,you can go on and take your day dream. If you think I do not trust people, you are free to believe that the world is flat. If you think my resources are limitless,then you are right on some levels.

Have you heard the saying? Those who do not learn from the past, are doomed to repeat it. You have so much proof before you that the world is full of people, even those who aren't mean or cruel,who do mean and cruel things.You have the problem,that your world order has the flaw that it only works when people put the same value on every last thing.If at anytime people deside that their time is worth more or less than someone else's, then you will have a break down of your whole system.

You do not know me,and if you go down this line long enough you never will. I know you are only doing what you think is right, but you seem to forget the fact that we are not the same,and as such will never truly see the world from the same perspective. What you may think of as a walk in the park for me,maybe a life threatening trek. Even if the scales of prospective were on a more level playing field, there would be more cases of the values being different,than them being the same.

[Hugin]

Jager, why are you even bothering?

[kestrel404]

Because until now, Dreamer had the appearance of arguing rationally.

I agree with Jager. Reminds me of an old economic model based entirely on favors owed. The problem with that model is that it only worked as long as everyone agreed with it, and was willing to risk being stiffed by a con man (once, per con man).

Once someone develops a reputation as having 'bad credit', everyone stops dealing with that person, and they 'starve'.

[Tarot]

Quote:

Originally posted by Alchemist:
Once someone develops a reputation as having 'bad credit', everyone stops dealing with that person, and they 'starve'.

Is this a problem or a feature?

[Preston]

Perhaps the point would be that for the system to work, we would have to truly understand and appreciate someone else's value system, as well as being able to articulate your own ... and stand by it.

[kestrel404]

Generally, a feature. So long as the person doesn't change and won't return any favors you do for them, you just ignore them until they die or leave the planet. This is entirely economic mind you, and has nothing to do with self defense, etc.

If the person has a real change of heart, and starts honestly trying to get back into people's good graces, then people will do what comes naturally: shun the one who hurt them and give him a hard time. Then it's something of a bug. But it serves pretty well as a deterrent against this kind of thing happenning any more.

This all came from baseline economic theory, so take it with a grain of salt as far as applying it to nova interactions.

[Damanor]

A favor-based economic system might work well in an area with few participants, like (in baseline terms) a small town or a very limited market. (I remember reading about something similar in a diamond market, where a double-cross leads to ostracism.) The problem comes in when there are so many people involved that someone's "bad credit rating" isn't common knowledge, just because only a few novas might know him or her.

So it might work for nova interactions right now, but in a few more years (at the current eruption rate) a favor trading system may not work as well.

I suppose we could police it by giving public feedback, as they do on those Opnet auction and sales sites. Get their lifetime favor feedback rating, their rating for the past year, and the last five ratings.

Of course, as Alchemist just said, this is all based on baseline economic theory, so don't trust it any farther than you can see it, touch it, or throw it (depending on your respective abilities).

[Guest]

Quote:

Originally posted by Totem:
Every species on this rock kills members of its own species. Whether for mating, food territory whatever. I am starting to get tired of this Kumbaya one race crap. Don’t get me wrong I don’t want to go around offing everyone but let’s be serious. Just because we share a node doesn’t mean we are all supposed to get along perfectly. I have friends and I have enemies I have accepted this. I will cherish those who I will and those I hate will feel my claws if they cross me.

If I may ask... What are you complaining about?
It's Natural Selection, or in our case Unnatural Selection.

[Wakinyan]

You are right it is. I was complaing not about the system by itself. I am complaining about those who deny it or force themselves to live outside of it or at least create the delusion that they do.

I realize what I am and I accept it.

[Guest]

Acceptance is after all The First Step.

[Long]

Absolutely