Mutants & Masterminds Mutants & Masterminds: Struggles of Iannin - SOI Chat

[Forge]

Originally Posted By: jim

Jameson here ...

Forge and I have discussed a potential Fantasy game. I've spoken to the rest of you to one degree or another about the same thing. Forge suggested around robin approach to GMing, basically we all create a game world together in the style that Titan spoke of here were we work from the ground up, first as Gods, then as monarchs, and then we begin the game in an organically created world that we all participated in building with each player taking a turn at GMing for the others so that the burden is not on any one of use all of the time.

I believe that the intent is to use M&M 3e as the base system once the world is created. The world creation will follow some guidelines and allow for us all to put our own touches on the world. In addition Forge has a planned set of random chaotic events and such to help balance out our own influence over the setting as it forms.

This PM thread is to secure interest on your parts, and to open up suggestions for others we may want to invite in based on the criteria of quality of posts and frequency/reliability of postage. Personally I'd be fine with the 5 of us alone if it meant a regular posting rate of good quality posts. Regular posting being roughly once per 48 hours barring sickness, vacation, etc. I think we all know what we consider a quality post.

Once we know who is participating I think the plan is to create a god or two each and then start with a very basic map and go to town carving the world. Then move onto populating the world by having our gods create servant/worshiper races, and then move into controlling the major races/nations, until such time as the world has the depth we want to begin with.

So ... step one:

Are you with us?

Questions and comments welcome.

[Forge]

I would also add that you don't have to GM if you do not want to. This wouldn't be a forced thing, only if you want to. My vision is that every 3-6 months the mantle would change as the adventure or small plot was finished. Longer is fine, that's just my idea.

I want to keep the game somewhat light to start, no overarcing mega plot that the PCs are directly tied to, no world shattering bad guy etc, no immediate timetable for anything.

Once we get down to playing our PCs, its just another 'you walk into a bar' kinda thing, at least to start. As I would like us to start as level 1 equivalent, or PL 4.

This would be a fresh Academy recruit, newly graduated mage, just-out-of seminary cleric etc. Jameson has some great example chars he built for a different game that gives you a good idea of what you can do with m&m 3e. (if you'd like to post them here in the PM that would be awesome)

[Forge]

AFA as world creation. My idea is to run as follows.

Each 'stage' will have its own thread...we will post in some random order and continue the order barring the chaos element upsetting it somehow. Each post, we generalize what we are doing. For example...assume the large landmass is already kinda broke up into chunks.

Damon: I take a section of the west continent and shatter it mightily into a vast archipelago of small islands (kinda like Earthsea)

Joani: I sink a third of the archipelago via my massive volcanic eruptions forming a large continent dividing mountain range on th e western contient

Dawn: I take the entire southern continent and turn it into a swamp!

etc etc...very fluid, no rules...we can all do whatever we want within reason.

[Forge]

Originally Posted By: Dawn

Here's a question. Traditional fantasy gaming involves good and evil races. I've never liked that as it seemed to straightjacket everything. I'm not arguing against cultural dispositions. I'm talking about stuff like: all orcs are evil bastards because they're orcs. People can certainly believe that is true, and the orcs can kinda cruel to outsiders, but do we want to apply morality on a genetic level? Are we going to have 'black-hat' races and 'white-hat' races or something more fluid?

[Forge]

Originally Posted By: jim

Re: World Creation
That's more or less how I had things in mind for the first stage "World Creation". For the second stage, I envisioned that we would each write up 2 gods (10 total if its just us 5), with a short background, general purviews of power, and disposition and have these gods touch the world, adding another round or two of world shaping before we move on to the gods creating the races of the world. Example, a water god might create a mighty river (with plans to later populate its banks with squidmen), a fire god might choose to burn a desert into one continent, a death god might blight some land in some fashion, etc.

Once race creation starts the gods are basically saying, "I need people to worship and adore me, STAT" so the god of fertility creates Elves who are agrarian and beautiful, the warrior god says, "Dwarves. Berserker barbarian dwarves." The gods creating the culture writes up a description of the race (including a template) and their basic culture at that point. This forms the basis for later evolution of the races. Alternately a god might revisit an old race and influence them in some way. The sun god makes the agrarian Elves into sun worshipers who build detailed calendar stones ...

After a couple rounds of race creation we step out of the god's shoes for a bit and maneuver the civilizations themselves, then back into the god's shoes to demand more respect ... etc. Over time the agrarian elves worship of the sun turns them to other sciences and that culture evolves maybe they are forced to retreat from marauding dwarves, and establish a science based autocracy that supports an isolationist policy because of thier cruel treatment by other races.

The end result is a living world that we all have input into. Nobody "owns" any race, and no one race is "evil" from the start, but if the barbarian dwarves do nothing except attack and expand and attack and expand then then may become the "evil" race of this world in a general sense. That isn't to say that every man, woman, and child dwarf is waxing and twisting their mustachios as they hatch evil plots, just that after ages or warfare the other races and kingdoms of the world will view them in a certain way.

I'm against, flat out black hatting a mortal race. Demons on the other hand ... yeah, they be evil from the evil gene on up.

[Forge]

Originally Posted By: Jim

Templates!

Halfling Racial Template:
+1 Agl, +1 Dex
Shrinking 4 (size -3, 3 ft tall, -1 Str, +2 Parry and Dodge, +4 Stealth, -2 Intimidation) [Permanent, Innate] 9 pp
Total 13 pp

Mage
Click to reveal..
Mage (60 pp) (PL 4)
Attributes: (20 pp)
Strength -1, Stamina +0, Agility +1, Dexterity +2, Fighting -1, Intellect +4, Awareness +3, Presence +2

Defenses: (7 pp)
Dodge +2, Parry +2, Fortitude +2, Will +5, Toughness +5 ( +0 w/o amulet)

Advantages: (5 pp)
Ritualist, Equipment 1, Artificer, Minion 1 (horse), Language 1 (Elvish)

Skills: (11 pp = 22 ranks)
Close Combat [staff] 3 (+2), Close Combat [Close Magic] 4 (+4), Expertise [Magic] 4 (+8), Expertise [Demons] 2 (+6), Insight 1 (+4), Investigation 2 (+6), Perception 2 (+6), Ranged Combat [Magic] 2 (+4), Treatment 2 (+6)

Powers: (17 pp)
Warding Amulet – (removable, -1) – 4 pp
Protection 5 – 5 pp
Magic (Array; 8 pp) – 13 pp
Power Bolt - Damage 4 (Extra: Ranged) - 8 pp
Mana Burn - Damage 4 (Extra: Alt Save (Will)) - 1 pp
Stun Bolt - Affliction 4 (dazed/stunned/incapacitated) (Extras: Ranged) - 1 pp
Fire Ball – Damage 4 (Extra Ranged, Burst Area, distracting) – 1 pp
Invisibility - Concealment 4 (all vision) – 1 pp
Eagle's Wings – Flight 2 (Extra: Affects Others) – 1

Attributes 20 + Defenses 7 + Advantages 5 + Skills 11 + Powers 17 = 60/60

Combat:
Initiative +1
Close
Unarmed -1 Damage -1
Staff +2 Damage 2 (reach 5ft)
Mana Burn +3 Damage 4 (vs Will)
Range
Power Bolt +4 Damage 4
Stun +4 Affliction 4 (Fort. dazed/stunned/incapacitated)
Fire Ball -- Damage 4 (burst area)

Equipment: (5 pts)
Staff (damage 3, str based, reach) (4 ep)
Torch (1 ep)
Horse (minion)

Fighter
Click to reveal..
Warrior (60 pp) (PL 4)

Attributes: (20 pp)
Strength +2, Stamina +2, Agility +2, Dexterity +0, Fighting +2, Intellect +0, Awareness +2, Presence +0

Defenses: (4 pp)
Dodge +3 (+2 w/o Shield), Parry +3 (+2 w/o Shield), Fortitude +5, Will +3, Toughness +5 (+2 w/o armor)

Advantages: (16 pp)
Equipment 2, Minion 1 (horse), Improved Initiative 2, Accurate Attack, Defensive Attack, Power Attack, Takedown 2, Weapon Break, Weapon Bind, Quick Draw, Improved Disarm, Improved Smash

Skills: (15 pp = 30 ranks)
Athletics 3 (+5), Close Combat [sword] 1 (+3), Expertise [Riding] 1 (+1), Expertise [Weaponry] 5 (+5), Insight 2 (+4), Intimidation 4 (+4), Perception 3 (+5), Ranged Combat [Thrown] 3 (+3), Stealth 3 (+5), Technology 2 (+2), Treatment 3 (+3)

Powers: (5 pp)
Powerlifting: Enhanced Strength 2 (limited: lifting only, 800lbs) – 2 pp
Shield Bash – Affliction 5 (Resisted by Fort., Dazed/Stunned/Incapacitated) [Removeable (shield) -2] – 3 pp

Attributes 20 + Defenses 4 + Advantages 16 + Skills 15 + Powers 5 = 60/60

Combat:
Initiative +10
Close
Unarmed +2 Damage +2
Sword +3 Damage +5
Shield Bash +2 Affliction 5
Range
Shuriken +0 Damage +1 (multiattack)

Equipment: (10 pts)
Sword (4 ep)
Shuriken (1 ep)
Chain Mail (3 ep)
Small Shield (2 ep)
Horse (minion)


Rogue
Click to reveal..
Rogue PL: 4 PP: 60

Attributes: (24 pp)
Strength -1, Stamina +0, Agility +4, Dexterity +3, Fighting +1, Intellect +1, Awareness +2, Presence +2

Defenses: (2 pp)
Dodge +6, Parry +4, Fortitude +0, Will +3, Toughness +1

Advantages: (13 pp)
Equipment 1, Connected (thieves guild), Contacts, Defensive Roll 1, Hide in Plain Sight, Improved Critical (Daggers) 2, Move-by Action, Quick Draw, Skill Mastery (Thrown), Uncanny Dodge,

Skills: (10 pp = 20ranks)
Acrobatics 1 (+5), Close Combat [Dagger] 4 (+5), Deception 2 (+4), Expertise [streetwise] 4 (+5), Intimidation 0 (-2), Perception 0 (+2), Persuasion 1 (+3), Ranged Combat [Thrown] 2 (+5), Slight of Hand 1 (+4), Stealth 1 (+9), Technology 4 (+5)

Powers: (9 pp)
Halfling Racial Trait – Small - Shrinking 4 (size cat. -3, 3 ft tall, -1 Str, +2 Parry and Dodge, +4 Stealth, -2 Intimidation) [Permanent, Innate] 9 pp

Attributes 26 + Defenses 2 + Advantages 13 + Skills 10 + Powers 9 = 60/60

Combat:
Initiative +5
Close
Unarmed +1 Damage -1
Dagger +5 Damage +0 (Crit 17-20)
Ranged
Shuriken +5 Damage +1 (multiattack)

Equipment: (5 pts)
Shuriken (3 ep)
Dagger (1 ep)
Lock Picks (1 ep)

[Forge]

Originally Posted By: Joani

First of all - awesome ideas and work so far and I apologize for my late answer.

I strongly support Dawn's request/suggestion to avoid having "good/evil" races since this would reduce our abilities to create odd alliances and other "friendships" amongst tribes and races.

Concerning the world-creation process. Are we going through certain phases like "ages" of creation? Like in the dawn of creation there was just one huge landmass and marauding tribes of an original protorace and from there it evolves?

How are those chaotic events going to be implied? Are you drawing them randomly and what kind of chaotic events do you have in mind? (What can we expect)

I suppose this will be conducted on the basis of common sense and trust, less hard rules enables us to be more creative.

And lastly - I think 2 Gods per head sounds like a good pool - ar we drawing aspects randomly or do we call dibs?

Sorry if this seems random but those are just my first draft of thoughts/ideas on this.

@Jameson - awesome templates! Thanks!

[Forge]

Originally Posted By: jim

Originally Posted By: Joani
Concerning the world-creation process. Are we going through certain phases like "ages" of creation? Like in the dawn of creation there was just one huge landmass and marauding tribes of an original protorace and from there it evolves?

I think the idea was that we would shape the world in epochs before the coming of the gods, the gods would then act in turns of thousands of years (i.e. very broad strokes), and eventually we would move on into the races/civilizations/kingdoms themselves for periods of 100s of years before the game started.
Originally Posted By: Joani
How are those chaotic events going to be implied? Are you drawing them randomly and what kind of chaotic events do you have in mind? (What can we expect)

Damon has a table of events and effects and everything would be rolled randomly as I understand it. Damon?
Originally Posted By: Joani
And lastly - I think 2 Gods per head sounds like a good pool - ar we drawing aspects randomly or do we call dibs?

I'd like to do a group agreed dibs system. I for one want to have the death god, because I have a race in mind for that god to create and influence toward culture. If we want to do random rolls/assignments I'd be fine with that as well, I'd just live without that race/culture or try to build it differently.

Also, thanks about the Templates. I hope to find time for some design comments later on.

[Forge]

Originally Posted By: Joani

ok - before I call "dibs" on anything (although aspect of Live would appeal to me alot).

What aspects are we actually putting on the table? Things like Death / Live or maybe also virtues? What about good / evil or light / dark (not necessarily always opposing aspects).

I think picking some basic aspects and then assigning some virtues and attributes to it would work fine (at least for me and my ability to focus and imagine it). The only area I lack with examples would be picking aspects.

Can we make a list? What should be on it?

Let say for a start:

God of Death (Jameson)

God of Live (Joani)

God of...?

[Forge]

Originally Posted By: Ouroboros

Damon has a table of events and effects and everything would be rolled randomly as I understand it. Damon?

Yup, I have a bunch of charts I have collected over the years that I am adapting. I'll use my Deuce or Mulligan account as Chaos and post when appropriate. Possible things that can happen in the God/Creation phase would be to lose a turn, gain a turn, last action reversed, meteor strike, plagues, insanely successful turn that doubles effects, your race conquers a continent...the charts are all over the place and will add the 'spice' to the recipe. Also, chaos can create races/creatures as well...it has more or less all the privileges of a God, if not more.

As far as who gets what God's. There is no limit and we don't have to have everything covered. If someone wants to have the God of Fire and the God of fuzzy meatballs, I don't care, just keep your actions around that. If we have someone that wants to double up, that can be fine with me too, competition can add that much more of an element or perhaps you are a twin deity that scheme behind each other's backs etc. Two Gods of Water/Ice could be the North and South poles etc.

If we have everyone on board, I will request the forum and get us started and we can move this discussion to an OOC thread so my email stops getting filled up and we can start the landmass creation phase.

Re: Good/Evil races.
It will ultimately depend on how they are created instead of just deciding that they can't be so black and white. If someone decides to create a race of flaming undead were-bears that must sustain themselves by consuming the fresh blood of two-legged creatures... Then it is going to get a big fat 'evil' stamp, whether or not you want to play one that is trying to spread peace and love through its ukelele proficiency.

I realize this discussion was more towards the 'classic' races and their stereotypes, (which is all good AFAIC) but I wanted to throw in that the possibility of 'evil' races is still very strong.

The Only Constant is Change is the tagline for the game, but I didn't really have a name for it, unless I just used the acronym of TOCIC...before we get a forum, we need a name. I would like us to brainstorm up some ideas and then majority/run off vote for one that we all like. Short and sweet IMO. My idea so far is...

The Chaos Saga

[Forge]

Originally Posted By: jim

Originally Posted By: Scion purviews

Animal (choose a specific animal)
Chaos
Darkness
Death
Fertility
Fire
Gaurdian (also Protection)
Health
Justice (Law in its moral form)
Moon
Psychopomp (traditionall those who ferry the dead, but any sort of messenger god)
Sky
Sun
War
Water
Magic
Prophecy
Ice/Cold (possibly just a version of Water?)
Illusion
Stars (Astronomy & Time to primitive races)

Those are basic/broad purviews and more could easily apply depending on the god's role. Multiple purviews that lock into a concept would also apply. Likewise an attribute could be a purview (Hercules - God of Strength).

Classical Examples:

Zeus - god of Sky, Justice, as well as (in M&M parlance) Strength and Presence.

Odin - God of Presence, Intellect, Awareness, Stamina, Death, Magic, Prophecy, War, and Psychopomp. Granted Odin is probably a bad example since he's an "all father" and has his hands in everything.

Ra - God of Sun (duh!), Awareness, Presence, and Falcons

My example:

Siponak - The Reaper
- God of Death, Psychopomp, Magic (necromancy), and Stamina

Siponak stands apart from morality, chosing his victims due to the course of natural law, reaping them and ferrying their souls to the underworld. As a god of magic his specific purview lies in the necromantic arts, the preservation, restoration, and revival of the dead as well as spirit communication and exorcism. Though not fully realized as a purview Siponak does have minor aspects of health that are fully realized in his mastery of Stamina. When Siponak acts upon the world it is most often to reap, taking those souls who's time is up to the afterlife. Less often he may intervene on behalf of his followers or to work against the actions of a fellow go who has upset the natural order of life & death.

Hopefully that paragraph will suffice to give enough information about how that god works and his motives and means of action so that everybody would know his place. It also lays out that he's not the type to stir up a genocidal war just to get some death on.

Edit: Damon posted while I was writing ...

The Chaos Saga is pretty cool, I'd also be down with something tried and true like "The Chronicles of [whatever we name the world]". I usually suck at naming things, sorry.

[Forge]

Originally Posted By: Dawn

I had the purviews idea as I was falling asleep last night, I shit you not. I wasn't thinking about the Scion list, but more of a generic, "God So-n-So is the god of War, Savagery and Victory" stuff like that. So I heartily approve of this idea.

I don't mind overlap either. I also don't mind the idea of a god hedging his or her bets and aspecting strongly to one race with one purview, then to other race more strongly with another. As an example, Siponak has Race 1 worshipping him as a death god, while Race 2 reveres him more as a teacher of the necromantic arts.

And as Damon said, I wasn't saying no evil races. If a race of people is, as a whole, warlike, aggressive and prone to killing their neighbors and eating their hearts to gain their strength, then they're evil. I just wanted to get away from the idea that all halflings, gnomes and elves are good, while all colored dragons, gnolls and bugbears are evil. Just because. If there's a reason that's grounded in our history, then it works for me.

[Forge]

Originally Posted By: jim

I don't mind overlap at all. I think two gods of Death for instance would add an interesting dynamic to the "religion" of the world. Perhaps a god of violent death and one of peaceful death. Don't piss off the first one, you won't like it.

Something I had in my mind was that these gods we create may be one pantheon or multiple. If Siponak is in the same pantheon as Joani's god Mammaria - Goddess of huge boobs, then they share a common belief system and Siponak gets some degree of an "in" with a larger crowd of followers, even though they may not venerate him specifcally or even in the fullest degree. Likewise if Damon's god creates a race of Ogre Ninjas and Siponak pulls a dick move and reaps half of them for some reason that might encourage a pantheonic divide, and the formation of a new group of gods.

The sky's the limit, is I guess what I am trying to say.

Re: Good and Evil - I sounds like we're all on the same page but the limits of the communication medium are causing minor miscommunication. The points I've seen are:
* Just because a race is normally good or normally bad doesn't mean that they have to align that way here.
* Just because a race may be warlike and dickish here does not mean that all members of said race are "evil"
* Evil is as evil does. Vampiric soul sucking necromancers who wage war on all the other races are pretty much evil by definition. Rogue members aside, you get what you pay for.
* We're creating a "living" world here. A race could start "good" and be influenced to become "evil" or the other way around. Likewise once the nation/kingdom phase begins I suspect this will play out like some kind of fucked up game of Diplomacy. - Short version; things change, the world lives, and we build history as we build the world.

[Forge]

Originally Posted By: Dawn

I like the god of creation (in all aspects), so I'd like to put my dibs on that now, please. How about we each dibs one and then come back and dibs the second on another go-around?

I'm going to clarify - the god of the creative process (as well as destructive). He doesn't really care what happens to the final outcome; all that matters is the moment of becoming. So you have a god who'd rather see the Mona Lisa painted over so that a kid can make a finger-painting, as an example. I see him being the god of inventors, innovators, artists, etc. If someone wants their creative project to flourish, they pray to him.

[Forge]

Originally Posted By: Asa

Bloody work with no internet access - I miss all the fun.

I'm on board with the whole no-intrinsically-evil races (except for gnomes, because everyone KNOWS they are an evil, disturbed race, and perverted besides).

They way of Gods and Purviews work too.

For one of my choices, I'd like to propose a God with a Duality of Aspects - Fire and Ice. Whose each step can scorch the earth and whose breath brings the frost of winter. Also would have a minor aspect as a God of the Forge (heats the metal in his hands and tempers it with his breath). Don't have a name yet - Gyllan popped into mind, but I'm not sure I like it.

[Forge]

My first God choice is 'Good'. A set of twins, one representing 'Truth', the other 'Grace'. Once we have a forum, I'll post the rest of the description, but we can go on and choose our second now.

For obvious gaps in the pantheon, I think we should assume that they are there and/or have actions, but nothing major in the process. Perhaps we can fill them in when we get down to character level...thoughts?

[Forge]

Originally Posted By: Asa

That works for me. The currently unmentioned gods could even have had a significant role in the creation/direction of world, just our gods had better propaganda and better selling bibles.

On another note, I wanted to ask about equipment. I've been looking through the 2nd ed. M&M Warriors & Warlocks book and was wondering about equipment costs. I can see special equipment and magical items being payed for with PP/EP, but does it really matter if someone is carrying a sword, three daggers and 50 feet of rope?

Maybe it's my history of playing D&D, but it just seems sort of wrong having to spent PP (the equivalent of levels/experience in other games) on common/standard equipment. What happens if our adventurers loot somebody, do we have to spend PP on equipment to account for it? If we have some disposable gold, can we walk up to the local blacksmith and commission a set of plate-mail?

[Forge]

Originally Posted By: Dawn

We could attribute the chaotic elements that Forge will be adding (lose a turn, double effeciency, etc) to the other gods. Their efforts either aided or opposed the 'main' gods, and we can outline them as needed to fill things out.

Does that sound good?

Asa, something like plate-mail is removable Protection.

[Forge]

Originally Posted By: jim

This is my experience with the system, I've been playing in a small table top (2 players + GM) fantasy game in 3e for a few months now ...

Equipment:

What you pay for via the Equipment feat is the character's "standard equipment" for the warrior template he has a shield, sword, chainmail, and throwing spikes. You've paid for that so even if during an "adventure" you get captured, your stuff removed, and later you are forced to use some crappy leather and a club when he would next find himself able to "re-equip" he will once more have a shield, sword, chainmail et al. The points you pay aren't ever lost in this manner, but as equipment with a huge price break those items do not get plot or Hero Point protection should you lose them. Realloction of equipment points into new equipment forms/types is also allowed; "trading in their old stuff for new".

Wealth:

The Advantage, Benefit (wealth), represents your character's "riches". Much like it would in a supers game, or any other, the M&M system handwaves much of the detailed material concerns on the basis that wealth is rarely of in game use. The Advantage allows that character higher buying power for "petty concerns". In the case of the warrior above if he had no ranks of wealth it might take longer in game for him to be allowed to "re-equip", but if he had 3 ranks of wealth because he is a lord or prince he would rich enough to buy new equipment regardless of his location, and would be allowed to "re-equip" more quickly and easily as a result. The wealthy character is also more able to book passage on a sailing vessel, purchase food and lodging, etc. Hopefully that is clear. Short version, Wealth lets you do stuff that doesn't need a mechanical game representation easier, it can't let you buy the best equipment ever for 0 pp costs however, that's just an artifact of how the system works.

Loot & Experience:

Because everything on a character comes from the same pool of points the Experience and Loot gained over a course of adventuring both boil down to awards of PPs. If the character's defeated a dragon and looted its hoard that would provide adequate justification for a large reward of PPs at the end of the game. The "loot" could either be used to justify buying new ranks of Wealth or explained as paying for better equipment (mundane or magical), paying for training, or other such character upgrades dependant on the character. Example: The warrior template might allocate a point of his gains to Wealth 1, and 3 points toward training a new skill or perhaps a special magical sword with the penetrating extra. A cleric on the other hand would likely donate his loot to the church but use this as justification for the gaining of new clerical spells & abilities or possibly an increase in his Holy Man benefit to show that his rank in the church has increased (he's now a bishop or somesuch). Mages can "buy" new spells, while rogues tithe thier loot to the guild but gain training in return and possibly guild status.

The important thing to keep in mind is that money is mostly a means to an end, equipment is still paid for and thus you'll get it back at some point later (and upgrades should be paid for accordingly with PP gains), and that loot is just experience in a different in game form. Again this is my experience and it has worked well thus far.

[Forge]

Originally Posted By: Joani

The main question is - how much of your prior games have involved micromanagement of money and equipment? If you look back you should be able to tell that almost 90% of the time your Character was always equipped with his main Weapon of choice.

M&M simply breaks that down to a representation in PPs and like Jameson said, should you get another load of PP you could easily declare them to be some kind of Magic Item (which you are unlikely to lose on a permanent basis, maybe for a scene but not for the PCs entire career).

The examples Jameson gave are roughly the line of thinking you have to develop in M&M. Wealth itself should just be something that happens in the background and not one of your PCs major "skills" or "powers".

Don't worry - I have to do some "relearning" myself.

[Forge]

Originally Posted By: Jim

The biggest thing limiting armor and arms is actually PL which is negotiable. I know Forge had suggested PL 4, but maybe we instead build with PL 5 or 6 for limits but only begin with 60 pp so that there's a little more wiggle room and freedom to show growth in terms of adding defenses, or saves, or attack power in addition to skills, advantages, and utility powers.

As an example, a robust knight with a stamina of +2 wearing full plate (protection 6) has a toughness of +8, at PL 4 this would be parry and dodge +0, at PL 6 he can get up to a +4 P/D. If we start low on points though that Knight may find it easier to have the armor and low defenses and explain it as being still unused to wearing heavy armor.

[Forge]

Originally Posted By: Asa

Ah, I like that idea of the slightly higher PL without necessarily associated increase of PP. I was thinking about it, say if someone has a half-giant type race, simply wielding a normal sword could bring the near-to-over the PL caps.

[Forge]

I would be totally fine with a higher PL limit to accommodate those more extreme templates that find it hard to shoe horn in. I would bow to the group's opinion on this, as I am still learning the char creation aspect of third edition.

[Forge]

Recap of primary God(ess) choices

Jim: Death

Dawn: Creation

Joani: Life

Asa: Fire & Ice

Damon: Good (Truth & Grace)

2nd round dibs are now open.

[Rebekka Van der Vyse]

Chat Log of the Magic God's decided Fall-

Lesson: Don't mess with Mortals.

Addendum: The Gods can't help themselves.

Asarasa] 3:10 pm: Are we considering Magic to be a 'natural' force like gravity

(sort of like the weave in Forgotten Realms) or flowing from the god(dess) itself

   [Venus] 3:10 pm: My second pick is probably Justice

[Forge] 3:10 pm: Asa, you could have a Bardic or Rogue god

[Asarasa] 3:10 pm: Bard/Rogue is good

[Asarasa] 3:10 pm: Could have a connection to the Creation god

[Forge] 3:10 pm: Asa I'm thinking of it kinda being both (Dragonlance-y)

[jameson] 3:11 pm: I'm not sure what you guys mean'

[Asarasa] 3:11 pm: Okay, Bard/Rogue good stole magic secrets from

unnamed Magic God(s)

[Forge] 3:11 pm: Asa is asking if Magic exists and you just have to learn it, or

it depends on some kind of privelege from a God, similar to clerics

[Forge] 3:11 pm: privilege*

[jameson] 3:12 pm: I would say both

   [Venus] 3:12 pm: I would vote for the former - not invested by the Gods

exclusively

[Forge] 3:12 pm: me too

[jameson] 3:12 pm: clerics get their magic from their god(s), wizards and the

like from book learnin

[jameson] 3:13 pm: I see the gods as having come about from the magic of the

universe

[Asarasa] 3:14 pm: How about this - the was a Magic God, who held the

secrets close, and mortals wizards/sorcerors were tire of his paranoid whimsy

- they actually enacted a grand magic ritual, pulled the god down and

effectively killed him, releasing Magic to world to however could learn it or had

the bloodline for it?

   [Venus] 3:14 pm: I was thinking about integrating Magic into the Essence of

Life. As a creative power/source Magic could be part of the cycle of life

[jameson] 3:14 pm: Asa, I like it

[Forge] 3:14 pm: The Gods emerged from the Chaos, their Will pushing aside

entropy and establishing existence...

[Asarasa] 3:14 pm: Lesson - Gods need mortals, not the other way around.

[Forge] 3:15 pm: I like it, and Joani's idea fits right into that

[Asarasa] 3:16 pm: Sort of like the Lifestream in FF7

[Asarasa] 3:17 pm: Sounds good

[jameson] 3:17 pm: The god might even still exist as an Underworld "dead god"

[Asarasa] 3:17 pm: Bard God could have stolen secrets before Magic God got

pulled down

[Forge] 3:17 pm: Nah...I like the god being kaput

[Forge] 3:18 pm: kinda like a warning to the other gods they aren't completely

immune to their subjects

[Asarasa] 3:18 pm: I was pondering have a race/nation of very magically adept

folks who enacted the ritual after getting annoyed by the god - they are very

anti-god

[Asarasa] 3:18 pm: Depending on how stuff turns out

   [Venus] 3:18 pm: how about that the shattering of the god is also the cause

for mental Illness and all kinds of "crazy". So if someone is considered

mentally ill or impaired it is attributed to the former God of Magic

[Forge] 3:19 pm: I like it Joani, we can work that in

   [Venus] 3:19 pm: so while it "gave" the Mortals Magic to wield, it also

"cursed" them

   [Venus] 3:20 pm: maybe wielding magic and becoming to powerful will

sooner or later "burn" you, making you go insane eventually

[Forge] 3:20 pm: That could be a Chaos turn, punishing mortals

[Asarasa] 3:20 pm: Also, the shattering of the god is what empowered certain

bloodlines to be naturals with magic (sorcerors), they inadvertently received a

portion of the Magic God's power (contact with his flesh, blood, tears, etc.)

[Forge] 3:20 pm: or tainting magic use

[jameson] 3:20 pm: How do we come to a decision on all this? Majority vote?

[Asarasa] 3:20 pm: I guess

[Forge] 3:21 pm: probably, anyone not like the idea?

[Asarasa] 3:21 pm: Just an idea I was proposing, and you guys seemed to like

it, adding your own you touches

[Forge] 3:21 pm: and someone should post this so we dont forget anything

[Asarasa] 3:21 pm: I'll post the entire Chat log

   [Venus] 3:22 pm: since we are 5 there's always a majority

[Forge] 3:22 pm: kk

[Forge] 3:22 pm: I'm in favor

[Asarasa] 3:22 pm: Aye

   [Venus] 3:22 pm: aye

[jameson] 3:23 pm: that's fine, I just think we should determine that now rather

than when one of us doesn't like something that somebody else proposes

     [Carver] 3:24 pm: Sure

[Forge] 3:24 pm: if someone is /really/ opposed to something, I would rather

work it out and compromise rather than just vote and dismiss their opinion

though

[Asarasa] 3:24 pm: Agreed.

   [Venus] 3:24 pm: agree

[Forge] 3:25 pm: I want this to stay fun above anything

[Forge]

Our God choices, ladies and gentlemen.

Joani - Life & Justice

Dawn - Creation & War

Damon - Good & Evil,

Asa - Fire/Ice & Bard/Rogue/Trickster/Love/Passion

Jim - Death & Astrology/Sky

Edit: Added first round too.

[Ouroboros]

I had an idea for a "birth of the gods" type creation myth. I'm still working on the details but the rough outline follows. if you guys think it worth my further effort I will write it up, if you have suggestions for changes we can discuss them here, and if it sucks I'll just ditch it:

The universe began as formless chaos without shape or thought or form. The Magus was born from the chaos as pure magic and found that chaos was insuffiecent to him so he created Wulkyn, the Heavens, who filled it with stars. In the same moment of the Creation of the Magus Kaer, the dark was born. He saw the Magus' creation and smiled, for he would bring the Magus low, and all that came after, he was chaos and entropy, and he was patient. This act of creation twisted the chaos and thus was born Beltok, the Maker who whispered into the Magus' ear, that space was too dark and light would make it greater. The Magus created Tal & Len, the suns, to bring light to the darkness of the space. As the oldest child of the Magus the duty to coordinate the movement of the heavens was left to Wulkyn. The Magus desired more and created the world Iannin and the goddess of life to populate the world. It was she who made the plants and the animals, the birds and the fish, and the first race. The goddess of life bade Tal & Len to mate and they gave birth to the god of fire and frost who poured water on the world and created oceans and rivers and lakes.

But there was too much life and too little space, strife began between all that lived. The strife was such that the formless Chaos gave birth to the Goddess of War, Konsea. The other gods feared that endless strife and war would give Konsea too much power and created Siponak, the Reaper, and the concept of Death. Siponak struck down nine parts of ten and life was restored to balance on the Iannin and in the heavens. The first race became aware and the god Beltok began to speak to them, the gods desired worship and song and prayer, but the first race knew not of these things. Kaer came forward and presented the gods with his child who then gifted passion and love and emotion and the arts of performance to the first race. In secret the Trickster also gave greed and the arts of theft and deception and trickery to the first race. Kaer smiled for he knew now that the Magus' downfall had been born. The first race worshipped and prayed and learned and created and studied and made war and life and death and more. The goddess of life had seen this illicit gift, and though she knew not its ultimate purpose she knew that it was evil for she distrusted Kaen and his chaos. The goddess gave birth to Justice to act as the balance to the Trickster.

All was good until the hidden gift of the Trickster made the first race envious for they desired to build their own magic and no longer take their magic only from the Magus from what gifts he would give in exchange for their prayer and sacrifice. Beltok, heedless to the outcome, helped the first race to create their greatest feat. With the sudden swiftness that is the hallmark of the mortal races the first race struck and rendered the Magus unto Iannin and slew him. Siponak reaped his grandsire mercilessly, for all thing must die, even the gods. Upon his death the Magus, who was magic incarnate, broke apart and showered the world with free magic, but magic was born of chaos and with magic came chaos to the world and thus madness and evil. Kaen smiled for the first part of his eons long plan had come at last to fruition.

[Dawn OOC]

As a note, I like this. Jim and I discussed the possible First Race and came up with two different ideas (more or less in unison). The first is the pretty standard Dragon. That would then have the standard "this is why the are god-like because the gods built them too well."

The second option is that the First Race were humaniods who then were cast out into the planes when they killed Magus. They become the planar creatures such as demons and angels.

[Mr Fox]

This sounds very cool. You guys just posting what you've planned out or are you throwing it out there for others to join in?

[Forge]

I'm not keen on Dragons, as then the Gods created the first race not in their image, which seems odd (at least I picture the gods humanoid)

I don't mind them not being 'human' but would prefer more humanoid than not. Banished to the planes to become the Gods' servants as punishment suits me even better. Then they could have been twisted into whatever shape that God preferred.

[Forge]

Originally Posted By: Mr Fox

This sounds very cool. You guys just posting what you've planned out or are you throwing it out there for others to join in?

This is what we have so far in our creation process. We are building the world from the ground up before we then go in and play chars in the world.

We'll probably start later this week with an actual world building thread.

[Rebekka Van der Vyse]

Personally, I'm sick and tired of Dragons being the shit. I say we have just be big-ass lizards with a mean temper, who can breath fire and like gathering shiny things, being it gems and coins, or bits of glass and common quartz. Sort of like the dragons in Reign of Fire or the Krayt Dragon in Star Wars. Not hyper-intelligent, super-sorceror, physical battle machines.

I like the First Race being humanoids who ended up becoming the angels and demons - the ones closer to event-horizon of the ritual that killed the Magus becoming the more powerful Seraphim and Arch-Devils/Demons. Which most of the gods delight in forcing to serve them.

There would of course be those who still try to fight gods. And maybe a remnant of the First Race survived, perhaps in another, or lesser form.

[Ouroboros]

I'm fine with the first race not being dragons. I specifically didn't think of them in any terms but their context that we had discussed, and the contexts needed to have the gods come about in a rational and yet still fantastical way.

I would say that if we are all fine with it the First Race later became the servants of the gods in whatever form their god requires, soul harvesters for Siponak, dyrads for Zahn, Fae for the Trickster, demons for Konsea, angelic for Tal & Len, etc etc... but beyond that we simply don't need to worry about it right now. The first one are only mentioned in the creation myth with respect to their creation, and their downfall and the destruction on the Magus (or whatever we end up calling him/her/it). The first ones could have been changelings, formless and powerful, whom the gods cursed for the destruction of their father by locking their forms and forcing them to be servile.

I don't think the specifics matter, and in fact they might detract from the power of the myth, but that's just me.

[jameson (ST)]

Talking to Joani in chat and I may make a slight change to the myth. Basically I instinctively went with the heavens and then light (being raised Catholic and all) but upon reflection it may make sense that the world Iannin was created first and that Beltok whispered to the Magus that without light one could not look upon his creation's full glory and thus the twins were born.

The rest would fall more or less as it stands now. Thoughts?

[Forge]

Works for me. So assuming we follow this creation myth, are we going to start world building after the fall of Magus...or build the world...assume his fall happens, then continue?

[jameson (ST)]

The second is my vote. We all seemed to agree upon the idea of the Magus, and the Myth is nebulous enough that we can work within and around it during the world building and then move past it to the time after the fall to create our PC races and civilizations etc.

[Joani]

I second Jameson there

[Kakita Zoyu]

Thirded.

[jameson (ST)]

After much discussion in chat (some rather silly), unless Carver has a major problem the Magus named Elan.

[Dawn OOC]

Elan. Elan?!

Seriously? Why not Nale?

I think I need to see this chat log.