Aberrant RPG - channeling taint

[Stigmata]

Does anybody else think that all of these made up alternatives to chrysalis sort of takes away from an important part of the game?

I think if you give so many options here on how to deal with it, it takes away that threat of unwanted aberration. It takes away that limitation.

Not only that but it takes away some of the intrigue of the Teragen.

[Twist]

Quote:

Originally posted by Stigmata:
Does anybody else think that all of these made up alternatives to chrysalis sort of takes away from an important part of the game?

I think if you give so many options here on how to deal with it, it takes away that threat of unwanted aberration. It takes away that limitation.

Not only that but it takes away some of the intrigue of the Teragen.

Well this is going to polarise people. That's one thing you can be sure of. Some people will feel the way you do. Others feel that Chrysalis is just another case of Whitewolf favouring the "bad guys" and that there should be alternatives.

I don't have a problem with a well thought out alternative or two... as long as they are well thought out and rarer than rare. Terats properly following Teras are probably rare and those following alternative non-canocical paths such as Exemplarism are probably even rarer.

For one thing they are probably all the same process. They're just wrapped up in different mindsets that effect the way taint is channelled by the process. In a game it's an individual storytellers choice.

On the Opnet board things are a little different. When someone bounces non-canonical aspects of their game in to something like that it'll either be accepted or ridiculed and then ignored depending on what it is.

But within reason I don't have a problem with it as long as it's well thought out and requires some serious roleplaying to use. Chrysalis is not a get out of taint free card and alternatives shouldn't be either.

Does it detract from the mystique of the Teragen. In a metagaming sense posibly in an in character sense not at all. Teras is only a rumour to non-Terats. The others are probably even rarer and not even rumours yet. It depends what sort of game you want.

Twist

[Jordan]

I depends on how it's handled and what impact it is supposed to have on the game.

In my own one-on-one tabletop game, Jordan has encounteered two methods of removing Taint, both "controlled" by powerful groups with their own agendas. The first is Chrysalis, which he found about after a good friend of his went through the process and the other is a Utopian program used in Bahrain to purge taint and its mutations from a Nova's body.

In both cases, they aren't redily available to the public and in fact very few people know about them. The other thing to note is that Jordan has no idea of how effective they really are and he has heard lots of people claim the are immune to Taint or that they've found a cure for Taint. Doesn't mean it's true.

As for Cin's posts, well, I chalk that up to differences in personal styles of play. It seems unlikely to me that any organization would publicly announce that they have a "cure" for Aberrant Syndrome and distibute it for free. It seems even less plausible, given the cannon background, that this organization wouldn't be harassed by every other Nova concern in the world. The fact that they even have the Teregen and Utopia working with them while acting with civility to each other in such an open and public forum is a feat of legend! Remember, as far as Utopia is concerned, the Teregen are terrorists of the most dangerous and violent kind.

Jordan's take on the whole matter is that Cin is a nut job, but as long as she ain't hurting anyone, he's not going to burst her reality bubble.

Again, not saying I'm right, just giving my perspective.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

I have to agree with Twist on a mega-game level. On a RL level (or as RL as you get inside of Aberrant) since Divis & Scripture have Mega-Ints of 6+, just understanding their lifetime's work well enough to change it is going to be a problem. (Not to mention that it probably takes senses most of us don't have).

Let's face it, the average Terat has no more understanding of the meta-rules of taint than we do of the code that makes Microsoft Windows work. Can we push a button and make something happen, yeah. Can we edit the code to do other things, not really.

[Hugin]

Agreeing with Jordan a bit on this one. Maybe this whole ODIN thing is simply due to differences in game play, but in my opinion one of the beauties of Aberrant was that taint was irreversible. Chrysalis, as written systematically, would be nearly impossible to obtain and is best used as a story device.

Simply coming up with a bushel basket of ways to get rid of taint or abberations is really kind of avoiding the concept of the game. Which is fine, but if you want to stay canonical, which this forum is for the most part, taint should remain a nearly unsolvable problem. That is what is causing so many problems and will cause even worse ones in the future.

[Sherazahde]

Quote:

Originally posted by Twist:
Others feel that Chrysalis is just another case of Whitewolf favouring the "bad guys" and that there should be alternatives.
Twist

I disagree with this, so I suppose I'm on the other side of the polarity you were talking about.

Personally, I think that Chrysalis was supposed to be this uber-big decision. There's no going back from it. It changes you irrevocably. Not just preventing unwanted Aberration or Taint. It makes you more alien in thought, and most certainly, more alien in a social aspect as far as baselines see you. That's the price of deciding to embrace the evolution granted by Taint instead of resisting it. Yeah, you can buy things at a lower XP cost while in Chrysalis, but that's supposed to be balanced by social changes that Chrysalis brings about and slow progression into something that simply isn't "human."

I also don't think there are "alternatives" to Chrysalis. I think that there can be other "archetypes" beyond the simple Marvel/Monster/Portent trinity proposed by the Terat book, but the actual evolution of Chrysalis would be the same regardless of what you decided to call it. Ergo, Exemplarism would simply be Chrysalis called something else, with different paths to follow. That would work fine, so long as the social aspect of the change isn't ignored. Regardless of what path you use to CHANNEL the taint into something else, it's STILL taint, it's STILL going to make baselines uneasy around you.

If you remove the social implications of embracing taint as a means to evolution, you're stripping one of the focal themes of the game away. It's like removing the blood hunger from a Vampire entirely (Golconda only provides the Vampire the strength to resist frenzy, not the elimination of the desire itself), and expecting it to still be the same game.

As far as Divergence or Exemplarism affecting the IC world, that, like has been stated, depends on how well-known they are. Stigmata is correct: alteratives to Chrysalis are going to lower the mystique of the Teragen, since they are "rumored" to have the only way dealed with Taint.

If Utopia knew about it, it's something Farah Rashoud will be all over in a heartbeat, since studying Terats undergoing Chrysalis is problematic. I'm not certain what, if any, social repercussions there are to Exemplarism or Divergence, but I get the impression that if they exist at all, it's not enough to prevent the Nova from interacting consistently with the baseline world. Saying that, if a means was found to deal with Taint that prevented those repercussions, it could conceivably prevent the Aberrant War from ever happening. The philosophy, simply by nature of what it was publicly offering, would spread, and Novas would not become as alien as they would using Chrysalis or nothing at all.

[Jager]

Hell, I would like it if going through the Chrysalis made other novas queasy. It is the ultimate breakdown of the human mindset into something else.

Having other "pathways" that don't have those mind-wretching effects changes everything, much like Vampiric pathways fundementally altered the loss of humanity in VtM.

An interesting aside. In the Trinity timeline, most novas still can't deal with taint effectively (i.e. Chrysalis).

In a pure twink manner, you could go through three Chrysals levels, gain three taint levels for Q5,6,& 7, burn through the Chrysalis and buy off the taint. Then you could get three more taint for Q8,9,& 10.

Look Ma! No aberrations!

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
In a pure twink manner, you could go through three Chrysals levels, gain three taint levels for Q5,6,& 7, burn through the Chrysalis and buy off the taint. Then you could get three more taint for Q8,9,& 10.
Look Ma! No aberrations!

Rolling the dice to do that would be really hard. The diff is 2, thus you need three succ and your number of dice is your Chrysals level.

Isn't there a rule somewhere that says you can only spend one point of willpower per turn? But you need to do that just to roll to start with. A good Terat needs 5 luck, and even then he should wait until Chrysals 5.

[T-dev]

I'm new to this site, so I'm unfamiliar with "other" ways of channeling taint besides chrysalis. I imagine this a non-cannonical idea of someone's. However, I will say this, chrysalis brings up all sorts of interesting issues about novas, humanity, & evolution. Terats sacrifice their humanity to deal with taint. I have no problem with the idea of new paths for Teras, but a whole new system would go too far I think.

[Sakurako Hino]

Actually Teras in of itself is a philosophy. It's a hard road to hold and if a twink messes up, it's up to the storyteller to lay some smack down on the poor twink. It's not who come's up with stuff that's improtant, Cin's probably a GM with some ideas of her own. It's just how it's used in a campaign that's important. There is just NOT THAT MUCH canon written about Aberrant. If we had the same amount of info written about Aberrant that was written for oh... let's say Rifts, then yeah, we have alot of canon keeping the new stuff from being used. But in a game that has a skeleton that is canon, and lets the GM make up facets of the story not mentioned in the books, then you have a fuller world to deal with. There has to be differing views of Teras floating around other than the ones given by the Teragen. It's just simple logic. As for the remark of comapring Vampire paths to things like Chrysalis... That does make sense. As long as we don't add clans and other things into the mix. Although Utopia, the Teragen

and other groups do seem like they are sort of "clannish".

I'm going to put on my asbestos undergarments now...

[Liam VanGilder]

I'm not sure an alternative to Teras would really be around in the Aberrant world, not by the time the books are set in. The group that developed and codified Teras, Fong and the rest, had a few very unusual advantages.

Firstly they had a group of highly mega-intelligent people without much in the way of preconceptions of what it meant to be a nova. These were some of the same qualities that led them to form the Teragen in the first place. Other groups aren't likely to have enough people smart enough to work this out for themselves. Those that do, like Utopia, have their own preconceptions about Taint and how to deal with it to hold them back. Bear in mind that this a whole new fusion of science and philsophy being developed, one that's going to require a lot if insight and work to bring together coherently.

Secondly, because of the Teragen's membership they have the opporunity to learn from people with a wide variety of Taint manifestations. The people they worked with would tend to have more Taint and to manifest it more quickly than the average nova. This gives them a chance to study the mechanism of Taint in action. Hardly anyone outside of Bahrain is going to get a similar sample and again, they have their own agenda.

Finally, and most importantly, they had Divis Mal to work with. This is someone who has had decades to work out his wn ways for dealing with quantum and taint and has more control over the forces involved than anyone else, ever. This kind of background work, years and years of trial and error experiemntation from one of the most brilliant minds in existence is a unique advantage. Without this their work might not have been half as successful or at least taken many years more to come to fruition.

I certainly agree that some other form of teras would come in time but it would probably take a good long time and require a concerted effort. This sort of thing might be beginning in an average game but I would expect it to be very much a long term goal. Not necessarily the case, depnding on who your game world goes but its why I think this sort of thing wouldn't be floating around in the canon game world.

[ 08-31-2002: Message edited by: Liam VanGilder ]

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
Hell, In a pure twink manner, you could go through three Chrysals levels, gain three taint levels for Q5,6,& 7, burn through the Chrysalis and buy off the taint. Then you could get three more taint for Q8,9,& 10.
Look Ma! No aberrations!

Not possible. You Aberrate from gaining chrysalis. Simply going through Chrysalis gives you aberrations, since to go through your first one, you need a permanent Chrysalis of 5, and you will aberrate in chrysalis the same way you would by Taint numerically.

Essentially, Jager, you can be aberrated all to hell and high water but have no taint to show for it.

For example, Ashnod is aberrated, but she only has Taint 3.

[Jager]

Damn, I need to find my Teragen book. I didn't think you needed a set Chrysalis level to go through it.

I know that Chrysalis biulds up, even if spent, but that if you used Chrys to buy off taint, it didn't act in a culmulative manner.

Does it?

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
Damn, I need to find my Teragen book. I didn't think you needed a set Chrysalis level to go through it.
I know that Chrysalis biulds up, even if spent, but that if you used Chrys to buy off taint, it didn't act in a culmulative manner.
Does it?

Taint isn't culmulative. The aberrations and social disads are.

[Kirby1024]

You can buy off Taint in Chrysalis, but it's important to note that this does not remove the offending Abberations, or any Social penalty you've accumulated so far. As the book states, Chrysalis can allow a nova to stave off insanity, but you're still forever separated from baseline humanity. Also, Chrysalis, for the most part, still acts like Taint, and the two do stack. So a person with Taint 6, Chrysalis 6, would have a +4 Social penalty to Baselines and less "evolved" novas (I have my own arguments against using that word, but this isn't really the place). And when you cash in your Chrysalis chips, It isn't wiped, it still remains.

So essentially, all Chrysalis does is allow a nova to "evolve" on his own terms, with the disadvantage that he can not return to his own life.

[Cin]

Thank you Endeavor for pointing out the bare-bones of canon in Aberrant and a few other things.

Okay, a few things here for everybody. Pardon me if things are a bit disjointed.

1- I PLAY in a very regular table-top game along with a few other people on the board and some who are not.

2- Divergence (Like Teras and Exemplarism) is a philosophy. It is for novas AND baselines alike and, with luck, hopes to solve a lot of problems between baselines and novas.

3- It is not a catchall way to be rid of taint and it’s effects. It tries to make taint, which is referred to as “Residual Quantum”, into something more constructive. It is ton a Holy Grail.

4- To actually be able to do anything with the taint requires a very strong belief in the philosophy which few people have, though a lot of people may still believe in the basic philosophy. In game terms it takes things like a very high willpower, the Faith background, the Iron-Will merit and an actual belief in it to even have a chance of channeling the taint.

5- If you look closely, you can see that each of the archtypes have their own problems too.

6- In the game I play there is Teras, Exemplarism and now Divergence. Of those three beliefs, Teras is by FAR the most widely practiced.

7- Divergence was created by Cin (and her Iron-Will) along with A LOT of help from Dr. Ebherheat (who has been a major researcher into novas and quantum since not too long after N-Day (her massive Mega-Intel sure didn’t hurt either0. It is something they worked on for YEARS and still has it’s flaws

8- Cin did it because she was not accepting of the alternatives...

A- Just get taint and let it destroy you

B- Follow Teras

C- Follow Exemplarism (Which, in the gmame I play in, very few people know about)

She did not believe in either of those two Exemplarism (she didn’t even know about one for a long time) and thought there had to be other ways to live with taint. So, in her usual stubborn way, she went to work.

9- Cin is one of THREE people who has successfully channeled the taint and actually Revel. Very few people have the strength of conviction to do it. And Reveling brought it’s own problems as well.

10- Let me break down a quote from Jordan Rossi into several part to respond a bit more easily …

“It seems unlikely to me that any organization would publicly announce that they have a "cure" for Aberrant Syndrome and distribute it for free.”

Why? If a group has an alternative way to deal with taint and they ACTUALLY CARE about novas and what is happening to them and the world, they wouldn’t give it out? There still are good people in the world, even in the Aberrant setting.

“It seems even less plausible, given the cannon background, that this organization wouldn't be harassed by every other Nova concern in the world.“

I never said that everything was smooth sailing. ODIN has its share of outside problems from other organizations

“The fact that they even have the Teregen and Utopia working with them while acting with civility to each other in such an open and public forum is a feat of legend! Remember, as far as Utopia is concerned, the Teregen are terrorists of the most dangerous and violent kind.“

PU and the few rep for Teras are not “working with” ODIN nor are PU and follwers of Teras are not “working with” each other there either. They tend to avoid each other. They each have reps there to explain their beliefs and recruit, basically. The fact that they are both there is simple. If somebody is going to open a facility offering free care novas and a alternative to Teras, and the much lesser known Exemplarism, and that facility contacted you ASKING for you to send a rep to share your philosophy on equal terms, you’d be stupid not to go. Is PU gonna let the Teragen have that advantage and possible recruitment base? Hello no. Is Terragen going to do the same? A much less emphatical “No” (It was all a matter of whom Cin offered the opportunity to that brought believers in Teras there).

11- Divis Mal is NOT the only person capable of doing huge things or having a philosophy about the nova condition (not matter how much he’d like the public to believe that)

Now things here a little different. People are welcomed to their own points of view. I’m sure more than just Jordan see Cin as a “nut job”. But I also know there are those out there who do not. If you don’t want to deal with it IC, then just blow it off a Cin being misguided or whatever and ignore it. For those who do want to deal with it, by all means, enjoy.

Cin

[Hugin]

Okay, lets do this by the numbers too.

1- Cool that you have a TT history with this character and with other characters here. But your history may not translate to the Forums. This is a "reality' based on group consensus. No ST, no Moderator, just let it happen. But, it is pretty agreed to keep things more or less canon for the most part. Exemplerism and Divergence are completely outside of canon. Now, I do not for one believe that no one else could come up with variants to Chrysalis. But, in canon, no one has and taking that as a character's achievement is a big bite out of canon.

2- If Divergence has a way to deal with Taint, it is more than a philosophy. Teras is a philosophy; Chrysalis is an exercise of quantum manipulation.

3- However, if it makes it easier for Novas to deal with taint, to reduce their social penalties, then it is a drastic step away from the concepts of Aberrant.

4- Good example, Faith is not even a background in Aberrant. If you have it, you are using house rules. How are we, as a group, supposed to deal with someone coming in a declaring house rules as rock solid?

5- I find it hard to believe that a philosophy that can be embraced by baselines and novas would have any effect on taint, something unique to novas. Also, from the description it does sound like this "philosophy' does try to simply sidestep the effects and costs of taint.

6- Really? The Teragen, about 2010 or so, has maybe 50-60 tried and true members. Only a dozen or so have gone through Chrysalis. What, do 10 people follow Divergence?

7- How did Cin help at all? Looking at your character descriptive, she's a combat monster who happens to be bright. No academics, no megaInt, no high willpower (one of the requirements). How does she have any clue as to put together a philosophy? From the looks of it, she's hardly ever studied anything outside of her hitperson past.

8- How about D? Don't get taint? There are a lot of novas out there with little to no taint.

9- Like what? Maybe as a group we would be more understanding if we know what Divergence was actually about.

10-

a. Well, if you had a million bucks would you stand on a street corner and offer to hand it out? No, I would hope that your sense of self-preservation would stop you. You make an offer to help people for free you will bring out the psychos who are willing to hurt you to get the help, get it now and get it easy.

b. OK, good point. But the Directive and Proteus would be camping out in your colon.

c. PU already has a highly active recruiting base. They are called Rashoud Clinics. A vast majority of newly erupted novas go there. PU gets a quick phone call and new nova gets a very friendly visitor. Why do they need you? ODIN is an organization willing to deal with the Teragen on a friendly basis. The Teragen are unrepentant terrorists, every single one of them. You are collaborators by association.

11- You're right, Divis is not alone in his ability to create a philosophy or have an effect on the world. However, you are talking about a hell of a lot more than that. You are talking about having created a way to "channel' taint, something no one but Divas has been able to do in canon. Why? Maybe because he was a nova for a few decades at least before he came up with it?

We have just had bad luck dealing with people in that way. They tend to go away. Dr. Cornelius got pissed and left. Stobe/Quantum Promise disappeared. We are trying to deal with this in a better way. Do you really want a section of the Forums refusing to acknowledge Cin and her efforts? That doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun.

[Cin]

1- Cool that you have a TT history with this character and with other characters here. But your history may not translate to the Forums. This is a ‘reality’ based on group consensus. No ST, no Moderator, just let it happen. But, it is pretty agreed to keep things more or less canon for the most part. Exemplerism and Divergence are completely outside of canon. Now, I do not for one believe that no one else could come up with variants to Chrysalis. But, in canon, no one has and taking that as a character's achievement is a big bite out of canon.

If this is a ‘reality’ based on group consensus then how can things be entered for consensus if nobody ever puts anything up?

2- If Divergence has a way to deal with Taint, it is more than a philosophy. Teras is a philosophy; Chrysalis is an exercise of quantum manipulation.

Chrysalis is an exercise of quantum manipulation, but to reach it you first follow the philosophy of Teras.

Reveling is an exercise of quantum manipulation, but to reach it you first follow the philosophy of Divergence.

3- However, if it makes it easier for Novas to deal with taint, to reduce their social penalties, then it is a drastic step away from the concepts of Aberrant.

I don’t know where this is coming from. You still get taint if you follow Divergence. It still has negative effects on social interaction. Divergence just allows it to be channeled into something possibly useful, just like Teras/Chrysalis does.

4- Good example, Faith is not even a background in Aberrant. If you have it, you are using house rules. How are we, as a group, supposed to deal with someone coming in a declaring house rules as rock solid?

No. I was simply giving examples. If you game uses Exemplerism, then you use the Faith background. It is not a specified prerequisite

5- I find it hard to believe that a philosophy that can be embraced by baselines and novas would have any effect on taint, something unique to novas. Also, from the description it does sound like this ‘philosophy’ does try to simply sidestep the effects and costs of taint.

Not at all. What allows it to be embraced by both baselines and Novas is its core belief

“Novas are not superior to baselines. Simply different. Superiority and inferiority is a matter of personal perspective.”

6- Really? The Teragen, about 2010 or so, has maybe 50-60 tried and true members. Only a dozen or so have gone through Chrysalis. What, do 10 people follow Divergence?

Cin does not know exactly what people believe. She does not that 7 people, including herself devoutly follow Divergence.

7- How did Cin help at all? Looking at your character descriptive, she’s a combat monster who happens to be bright. No academics, no megaInt, no high willpower (one of the requirements). How does she have any clue as to put together a philosophy? From the looks of it, she’s hardly ever studied anything outside of her hitperson past.

Actually, she does have Iron-Will. I’m not sure if I bothered to place my merits and flaws when I posted my char. I’ll post her again in her new form. How did she help? Simple. She can fight well, but she avoids it if at all possible. In addition, she has a very high quantum rating (6). Just serving as a lab rat helped a lot. She is also bright and VERY driven. The basic philosophy is her’s. Dr. Ebherheart did a lot of the research and the like. Cin has been doing all of the footwork and keeping people inspired because this is something she has devoted herself to.

8- How about D? Don’t get taint? There are a lot of novas out there with little to no taint.

True, but there are two things. The way it was explained to her, getting taint is pretty much unavoidable (and it pretty much is, but not necessarily.)

9- Like what? Maybe as a group we would be more understanding if we know what Divergence was actually about.

Working on a nice and detailed post about Divergence.

10-

a. Well, if you had a million bucks would you stand on a street corner and offer to hand it out? No, I would hope that your sense of self-preservation would stop you. You make an offer to help people for free you will bring out the psychos who are willing to hurt you to get the help, get it now and get it easy.

b. OK, good point. But the Directive and Proteus would be camping out in your colon.

c. PU already has a highly active recruiting base. They are called Rashoud Clinics. A vast majority of newly erupted novas go there. PU gets a quick phone call and new nova gets a very friendly visitor. Why do they need you? ODIN is an organization willing to deal with the Teragen on a friendly basis. The Teragen are unrepentant terrorists, every single one of them. You are collaborators by association.

a.If Cin had a million bucks and handing it out would help save lives, help out novas and save novas from the worst effect of taint? Yes. And she would work hard to get more money to do it. There is no need to hurt anybody, It is free with no questions asked. If people do get froggy, then myself and a few others can handle pretty much any situation.

b.LOL! That’s a pretty good description. That was part of the reason to be so open to PU and everybody else for that matter. ODIN is watched very closely. Cin does what she can to help people maintain their anonymity, but it doesn’t work as well as she’d like.

c.Yes they do. ODIN functions as a clinic as well. Novas go there for help with taint and/or their newfound powers. Because of the phone call PU gets from the Rashoud Clinics when a new nova arrives, some people don’t go to them. That is stopping some people from getting help. Some of those novas go to ODIN so that they can avoid contact with PU. ODIN does NOT deal with the Teragen. ODIN allows some followers of Teras there to offer their point of view. Using “Teragen” in my prior post was stating things from PU’s paranoid perspective.

11- You’re right, Divis is not alone in his ability to create a philosophy or have an effect on the world. However, you are talking about a hell of a lot more than that. You are talking about having created a way to ‘channel’ taint, something no one but Divas has been able to do in canon. Why? Maybe because he was a nova for a few decades at least before he came up with it?

Others besides Divis Mal of entered Chrysalis and exited it successfully. He was a nova from decades before he came up with it. Now other have the benefit of his experience as well as more info from being able to study more novas.

We have just had bad luck dealing with people in that way. They tend to go away. Dr. Cornelius got pissed and left. Stobe/Quantum Promise disappeared. We are trying to deal with this in a better way. Do you really want a section of the Forums refusing to acknowledge Cin and her efforts? That doesn’t sound like a whole lot of fun.

I’m sure you have had bad luck with people. I’m not going away, but I am not here to be an utter nuisance as well. I do not see why a whole section of the forums would ignore CIN. Just ignore the divergence stuff, which prolly won’t be here on the forum for much longer. Most of it is getting handled in private e-mails finally. It would not be a whole lot of fun, but I have no control of what others decide to do.

[Jager]

What is the game mechanics effect of Divergence? Does it mitigate the social penalties of baseline interaction for high levels of taint? Does it allow you to reverse aberrations and/or change what they are?

If you answered yes to many or all of the above, Divergence does become the Holy Grail of novadom and Teras becomes equated with Satanism by baseline society (no doubt with Utopia's help).

Why would any baseline thinking nova want anything else?

Why wouldn't any taint-wracked nova also seek it out to alter or remove some of their worse aberrations that keep them out of normal society.

Yes, a small number would still seek out Teras as an alternative, but now, with divergeance, novas can become powerful and not get seriously tainted.

A CORE ELEMENT of the game is that POWER EQUALS TAINT. Raise your quantum to 5 or above, and you become tainted. Increase your node to 3 or better and you get tainted (normally). Max your powers and you risk gaining taint. Unless I have missed something, you are stating that you have an alternative to this.

Something I think you might have missed in all this is the fact that while you accumulate taint and higher social interaction penalties, you do not necassarily become more divorced from humanity. Humanity becomes more divorced from you, but that is the price you pay for the power.

If you want to talk further, drop me a line. Check my profile. I would be interested in talking with you.

[Sherazahde]

Quote:

Originally posted by Cin:
3- However, if it makes it easier for Novas to deal with taint, to reduce their social penalties, then it is a drastic step away from the concepts of Aberrant.

I don’t know where this is coming from. You still get taint if you follow Divergence. It still has negative effects on social interaction. Divergence just allows it to be channeled into something possibly useful, just like Teras/Chrysalis does.

Isn't that just Chrysalis under a different name, then? How does Chrysalis differ from Reveling?

Not at all. What allows it to be embraced by both baselines and Novas is its core belief

“Novas are not superior to baselines. Simply different. Superiority and inferiority is a matter of personal perspective.”

The Portent philosophy of Teras can be similar to this, as can the Monster philosophy. Only the Marvel philosophy insists that baselines are below Novas.

The only real difference I can see so far (granted there hasn't been an extensive post on it) between Teras and Divergence is that Divergence requires the individual to have some underlying altruistic motive.

[ 09-01-2002: Message edited by: Sherazahde ]

[Jordan]

First off, I want to appologize to you Cin if you felt I was personally attacking you. That was not my intent.

Lets face it though, you haven't really presented Divergence in the most favorable way and you made ODIN sound more like the X Mansion. Your discription of Divergence has also been severely lacking, sounding like more like a cheap clone of Teras, which makes we wonder why you even bothered with it?

I know you were trying to be brief in your prior descriptions, but if your character was really serious about this philosophy then why hasen't she given a more respectable accounting of it? Why hasen't she started a topic on the forums to explain the philosophy and field questions about it?

The others are right when they say this is a shared world and you have to be careful when introducing elements of your TT game to the forums here. Take a look around the forums and examine what works and why. Lets take a look, shall we?

1.) Ashnod is the leader of her own faction of the Teregen called The Catalysts. Ashnod doesn't constantly remind us of that fact instead focusing on her goals.

2.) Jager is a 70 year old Nova from another timeline who has more experience than just about anyone else here. Instead of reminding us of that fact at every turn he incorporates his "wisdom" in his posts. He has become a near mythical figure in the "World" just by the acceptance of people here on the boards and not because he claimed to be.

3.) Avenger (who doesn't seem to be around any more) used to date Slider "back in the day," sought vengance on her killer (Successfully?), and works though his own demons by murdering rapists all around the world. None of that would have worked here without the consensus of individuals here.

One last example; Jordan Rossi. Jordan has existed both on N!Prime and on my One-on-One tt game simultaneously, almost from his conception. He has gome through 4 years of game time as a nova and experienced much, of which only a fraction of it has actually made it to the boards. The main reason for that is because most of it has little bearing on our discussions here even if they could (or would) have a big impact on the shared world.

In my opinion, the best way to add Divergence and ODIN to the shared world in a plausible fashion is to stop refering to them in the third person. Divergence is your personal philosophy, something that you live and teach. Treat it as such. Talking about it like it's something you read in a magazine doesn't convey the imortance it has in your life. There is a different impact conveyed when you say something like "What I believe and teach is..." versus "Devergence is..."

Try writing some short fiction about ODIN, Cin, and her Divergent philosophy. Let us see how you envision your creations and give us a basis on which to make an informed opinion. Also be prepared if someone picks it up and runs with it. Be flexible. True, your creations may turn into something completely different from your TT game, but that's the enjoyment of it and it means that the people here like and accept your ideas.

[Asche]

I have been sitting quietly and monitoring this discussion (and the Noval LEgisaltion bits as well as a few othgers). Until now I have kept quiet.

Jordan has a great Idea about writing some short fiction about Divergence. I know Lucinda can handle it; the player of her has an awesome way of conveying details in story form and has helped shape the gameworld that she exists in.

Lucinda, why not describe the first revel that took place in the game of ours? That might be rather interesting being that it really took place in game and the evvents leading up to it were rather tasty. (the hormonal imbalance and all)

I will gladly lend you the time line during which it took place. I look forward to your colorful description.

[Cin]

Jordan,

I didn't so much see it as an attack. I am sure you've have bad encounters with people here before. Several things. Cin speaks of it the way she does because she believes Divergence to be something bigger than herself. I am going to do a more detailed post about Divergence if people want it (which they seem too). I am just having to put all of my notes together.

As far as the fiction thing... Sure. I think I can handle that.

[T-dev]

Easy, easy, people let's take a breath.This topic seems to have stirred up a lot of emotion. Look,I'm Nick the New Guy around here & I'm not up on a lot of what's going on, but I understand that this a debate over a new system (or 2?) for dealing with taint. I have a couple of thoughts. To validate any new & non-canonical concept for general use, I think the author should fill the rest of us in on it's details & never assume that anyone else will like it, or that an attack on his/her work is a personal attack. Also, several questions need to be answered. What is the system? Is it just a Teras variant or a wholly new mechanic. Who made it? This a fairly big question. Consider who made Teras. It has a mighty fine pedrigree. When does this system come into being. I'm going to buy a new system coming into being in the 2030's-2040's a lot easier than I would one that pops up say around 2008. But, the big question to answer is why. Why does the system exist? Why does the system work? (note not how, of course I want to know that too) Why should anyone else care about it? Too often we ask,"Why can't I do this", when we should ask,"Why should I do this".

The reason I, & I suspect most others, use this site is to find interesting & useful stuff for Aberrant. I have no interest in totally scrapping the cannon. So, I need a good reason to care about material that radically alters it.

It's just a game people, just a fraggin game. I care about it, but I'm not going to get all heated about. Well, I may have gone too far. If so, feel free to tell me to shut up.

[Sherazahde]

Quote:

Originally posted by Cin:
1- Cool that you have a TT history with this character and with other characters here. But your history may not translate to the Forums. This is a ‘reality’ based on group consensus. No ST, no Moderator, just let it happen. But, it is pretty agreed to keep things more or less canon for the most part. Exemplerism and Divergence are completely outside of canon. Now, I do not for one believe that no one else could come up with variants to Chrysalis. But, in canon, no one has and taking that as a character's achievement is a big bite out of canon.

If this is a ‘reality’ based on group consensus then how can things be entered for consensus if nobody ever puts anything up?

It's generally better to broach the idea on the OOC forums first. If you're going to introduce something that's going alter the way the characters have to view the entire in-character world, it's best to run the idea past the players before springing it on the characters.

The characters are going to deal with something as earthshattering as Divergence with extreme skepticism due to the medium it's presented in, the OpNet. It's the same thing as someone on the Internet claiming to have a cure for AIDS. Sure, you can SAY you've done these things, such as when Strobe stated that Quantum Promise destroyed California. But you can SAY whatever you want, but there's no way to prove it and the characters have no real need to acknowledge it. That's why consent between players on ideas such as Divergence will prevent that from happening before characters begin arguing on the validity of player-created ideas.

[Sakurako Hino]

*dons flame-retardent undergarments*

Okay peeps, here's my take on this whole sitch. How many follow the philosophy of Teras as of 2015 (Using the dateline of the APH)? 100? 500? How many are of the Divergent philosophy? 10? 20?

Simply put, this may be a stem off of a much larger tree. Such as how one religion or philosophy has many different paradigms. Yes the intro of this philosophy was rushed. But, there is ALOT of ground that has not been covered by WW due to it's seeming lack of interest in the line. Just because it's not covered in the scant canon of the Aeoniverse, dosen't mean it never existed. We've taken Exemplarisim to heart havent we?

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Endeavor:
We've taken Exemplarisim to heart havent we?

No.

I ignore anything and everything ICly that makes reference to Exemplarism. As far as I'm concerned it doesn't exist.

The world that I interact with here doesn't include it.

[ 09-03-2002: Message edited by: Ashnod ]

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Endeavor:
Just because it's not covered in the scant canon of the Aeoniverse, dosen't mean it never existed. We've taken Exemplarisim to heart havent we?

Another no here. I don't think it makes sense to me and I haven't seen anything that would make me believe otherwise.

Also, what is this about 'scant canon'? Every single book printed for Aberrant added to the canon and some of the books (WorldWide I and II, the Storyteller Screen, XWF, Aberrant, Church of Michael the Archangel, etc) were nearly pure canon with absolutely no additional system enhancements. How come you find the canon material 'scant'?

[Sakurako Hino]

1: Everything covers up to roughly 2020. Anything further is speculation by the storyteller, using the information in the books. There aren't really that many books.

2: I don't have most of the books you mentioned. But from reading some books a friend had, I've had the impression that the canon material still has to fill out it's timeline. It's a point of view thing here.

[Hugin]

Curious then, what books do you have? Just would like to know what your view of canon is made up of.

Yes, the timeline stopped about 2015-2020 but the forum isn't anywhere near that time period anyway. The time period between Trinity and Aberrant was purposely left a tad fuzzy.

[Sakurako Hino]

The Main Aberrant Rulebook, and the Player's Guide. That's all. The local gameshop, before I gave it the cold shoulder, almost never kept things in stock.

[ 09-03-2002: Message edited by: Endeavor ]

[Hugin]

Woah.

Okaaaaayyy.

Yeah, there is a shitload and a half of canon outside of those two books. The Terat book has a ton of canon characters and history for our favorite monsters. The Project Utopia book is chok filled with history of the Project, Team Tommorow and Proteus. The Directive and Elite books are likewise filled with the history of the Aeon Universe.

Try buying stuff through Amazon.com. They still have beaucoup goodies at great deals.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:
Yes, the timeline stopped about 2015-2020 but the forum isn't anywhere near that time period anyway.

Do we actually have a definiative year for the forum? Or even an era?

[Kirby1024]

It depends. The general "Era" is around 2008 - 2015, but exact dates are a complete unknown. I had the bright idea of it being 10 years in advance of today's date (so the year would be 2012), but that's not a firm ruling. A few people (myself included) use that date, but you're by no means expected to use it.

So basically, it's "whenever". Either 2008, or 2012 is a good point if you want a solid date, but there's no true consensus on the actual date.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Hmm. Somehow I'd gotten the idea that it was 2010 (Troll's eruption date assumes that). I'll just push that forward two years. Thanks.

[Twist]

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
Hmm. Somehow I'd gotten the idea that it was 2010 (Troll's eruption date assumes that). I'll just push that forward two years. Thanks.

I thought it was 2010 as well... but 2012 wouldn't make that much difference.

Becka

[Sakurako Hino]

Actually, if I ever was a Storyteller of Aberrant, I'd just allow the cahracters to influence the world. How powerful an influence is based on the power they amass over time. Of course, I would only let them know of their effect through roleplay. I just like the initial concepts of the rules and world, and I do like the various organizations available. But, I just don't like the fact that there's just one be-all and end-all uber-philosophy that is Teras. My brain just don't wrap around that. Or anything else for that matter, that'd be a bad thing if my brain got wrapped around something. O_o;

[ 09-04-2002: Message edited by: Endeavor ]

[Cin]

Endeavor,

You take on running Aberrant is pretty the same as the ST I play with. Pretty much all of the canon event have happened or are happening, though the effeorts of us PC are having an effect on them and it doesn't not come easy.

What I know about the game I have learned IC since I only own the main book and the Terragen book. The ST (Asche Lonn) has pretty much the rest of the book. Heck, I didn't know that Exemplarism wasn't even canon. It fitted right into the game.

[Sakurako Hino]

It truely is rare when I express an opinion and not get flamed.

I've been of the philosophy that the canon material up to the point which you start the campaign is cement, and anything afterward is up to the players. It's their story, not the Storyteller's. The Storyteller is there as the arbitrator of the rules, and the enforcer of the general paradigm set by the tone of the troupe's roleplaying. The Storyteller cannot, and should not, let theri vision of "their game" interfere with the player made story. Adaptation is a rare gift among the Storytellers. While other games and systems BOAST some of the most creative GMs, DMs, Hosts, Judges, or whatnot. WW, WOD, the Aeoniverse, and Exhalted have produced a different sort of GM. That breed sacres me. Most of the Storytellers I've run across have been bitten by munchkins, so they run to a Storyteller game for it's inherent balance and extensive canon.

What results though is an inflexible shell of a gamer. They push, prod, and generally dictate to the players how THEY should play. And those who think otherwise are accused of being munchkins. I have been in those situations. I almost burnt out completely if I wasn't saved by my dearly departed ST. I had a good time, felt accomplishment for going into a story, and felt as if I wasn't wasting my time. My philosophies matched the ST's to the letter. Yeah, E-Chan is a little strange, but I am trying to evolve a character that was SUPPPOSED to get herself into trouble, and be stronger for it.

I support the ideas of the community here, and I am thankful to have found a creative buffet here. And when I partake of the massive palette here, I feel as if there is much more to the game than the books. I know this lecture is WAY off topic, but I believe this lecture sums up the mission of role-play in general, to tell and participate in a story that is influenced by the actions and events participated in by the players.

(rant_mode=0)

[Sherazahde]

Quote:

Originally posted by Endeavor:
But, I just don't like the fact that there's just one be-all and end-all uber-philosophy that is Teras. My brain just don't wrap around that. Or anything else for that matter, that'd be a bad thing if my brain got wrapped around something. O_o;

[ 09-04-2002: Message edited by: Endeavor ]

There isn't any one be all end all philosophy known as Teras. There is one be all end all MECHANIC known as CHRYSALIS. Teras is just one way to get there.