opnet [OpNet] Continuing the Divinity vs Science debate

[Juri 'Salamander' McClendon]

I've been reading up on Sherazahde's thoughts on quantum once being magic or divinity lately.

I imagine a time when my awareness of the burning grows to be global. When I have grown so much in power that I can sense all fire everywhere on the planet, or that my range of awareness spans continents.

I'd be aware of rituals then, rites and ceremonies for summoning the spirits of the flame. The lighting of sacred fires, the prayers said over them, the offerings and sacrifices given to burning light in hopes that I might pay attention.

Maybe, if I'm feeling generous enough, I'd appear before them, summoned by their call. I'd observe then whether or not they'd placed all the proper signs and sigils in place for their protection. It's my choice, you know, if I want to actually honor them, but if the proper respect was paid to me for answering their call I'd probably bear them no ill will.

Maybe I'd be inclined to grant whatever request they had wished of me. Maybe not. Fire spirits have always been fickle.

Isn't this magic, or spiritology, anyway? Do the ritual, give the offerings, the spirit appears, and you barter with her?

[Wakinyan]

This might be off topic but I think I will ask anyway. I hear demon used in a lot of translations regarding Asian mythos and Japanese in particular. Why is demon used so much. Whenever I think of the word it always conjurs the western idea of what a demon is. Can someone add to this? What does Demon mean in the eastern concept?

[Juri 'Salamander' McClendon]

I'm not a student of linguistics, but I think the word you're referring to is oni, which is used to reference beings of supernatural origin. Demon is just one translation. Probably given the context of what you've read, the most closest word usuable would be demon.

Check out this .

[Ian 'Very Bad' Blakely]

I think I'm in love.

Yes Salamander, we have the potential before us to return the world to a place filled with magic and wonder, drawn with bold and bright colours on an epic scale. That's what I try to do on the battlefield, to take mere combat and conflict and raise it up to the level of glory.

I want war to no longer be the dreary and depressing thing that it has become now. No more Mai Lai, Okinawa or Galipoli. I want the fields of Troy and the Halls of Asgard.

Fire is a mystical connection to the point in time when man shook off his primitive origins and embraced wonder. Bravo to you for wanting to bring that back.

[Singularity]

Some of us have used our abilities to become gods, Juri, but the appearance of a god does not make one a god. As Arthur C. Clarke said, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from

magic." Or in our case, any sufficiently advanced knowledge or ability.

Regardless, you do make an excellent point: there is a close relation between magic/spirits and novas in a descriptive sense. Personally, my abilities do not necessarily fall into that territory, but it is a topic I have considered several times.

[Ghostwriter]

I believe the subconscious mythos we share shapes our eruptions, but I sincerely doubt we are gods.

[Cristobal Galvain Pulles]

But what is the definition of Godhood in the mythic sense Codex? If you or Salamander or any one of us existed back in the time of the Greeks or Egyptians, do you not think we would be percieved as Gods?

[Wakinyan]

See the nice thing is. I'd get lotsa offerings so I didn't swoop down and cart off all the village maidens. Man... They had it good back then.

[Alex Craft]

Much as I hate to whip out with old threads (it's always interesting to see where an old discussion will go when it's approached with a blank slate), this might be of interest. (The second half of it is a discussion of vigilanteism, not godhood.)

It strikes me that this topic is always a matter of context - maybe even just semantics. How do you define 'god?'

A being capable of exerting its will to change the world (a "Let there be light moment?")? Novas fit that description.

An object of worship? Some novas fit that description. So do some humans, some nonexistent mythological constructs, and - maybe - some 'supernatural' beings.

Some powerful entity not explainable by science? Well, novas have not yet been properly explained by science, and we have no reason beyond optimism to believe that it is even possible.

Point is, Juri's definition of 'god' (or at least 'spirit') encompasses herself. Singularity and some others have other ideas. However, exactly why is she wrong? It seems that most of the conflicting definitions people have offered essentially say: "A god is a supernatural being which is not a nova."

[Singularity]

Well Alex, I do admit our abilities give us the appearance of gods (literally in some cases). I do disagree about the very existance of gods themselves, hence my statements saying that we merely fit part of the definition of gods but are not gods. How can we be gods if they do not exist? Bodhvistas, buddhas, lamas? Maybe. Hell, I could be wrong about the existance of god/s. Some very intelligent people I trust and respect believe gods do exist and they could be right.

Anyways, I am babbling. My point is I have my opinions but I do acknowledge my ideas are predicated on something I could be completely wrong about.

[Juri 'Salamander' McClendon]

Quote:

Originally posted by Franklin 'Singularity' Alden:
Some of us have used our abilities to become gods, Juri, but the appearance of a god does not make one a god. As Arthur C. Clarke said, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
magic." Or in our case, any sufficiently advanced knowledge or ability.

I disagree, Sing. There is no sufficiently "advanced" ability here. Even the simplest nova trick defies current day science. We say that the M-R node manipulates quantum, but the scientific community has no clue whatsoever how it does it, and some scientists admit we probably never will.

Nor is it advanced technology, even though our brainiacs have come up with some spiffy machines and breakthroughs.

What is being a spirit or a god but the ability to do that which cannot be done by man? There's no scientific explanation for what I can do, or what you can do, except to say that the M-R Node makes it possible by manipulating this abstract type of energy.

I think that science is trying to define what a nova is and thereby kill any possibility of allowing for the divine or paranormal to exist. We've been so consumed with trying to define the universe, strip it down into pieces that can be manipulated and written into neat proofs and equations, that I think most of us insist we have to have a scientific explanation. I keep hearing that science hasn't yet defined us, or that one day it will, or that the answer is out there but we just haven't located it yet.

What if the answer isn't out there? What if we are just to be accepted and not catalogued and documented?

Alternatively, how about this? Does it really matter if there is a scientific explanation for what the paranormal can do? In the end, regardless of how you explain it, by magic or by science, the same thing is achieved.

[Wakinyan]

Well isn't the breakdown really what is Magic? Can magic be quantified or understood? Or is the whole point of magic to be undefinable and mysterious?

A lighter can start a fire and so can Juri.

She does it with more style.

I know people who can jump through books, fire and shadow to go from one end of the earth to the other. I can smell a person from miles away and tell what mood they are in by it.

In the end it just seems that Quantum is just a scientific buzz word catch all term when Magic would have applied before the current age.

[Jager]

The difference is that mankind now approaches the unknown as something to be puzzled out, not accepted.

I am worried that novas would like to think of what we do as magic because we are afraid that eventually humanity will figure out what we do, and who we do it, and thus learn to control it ... and us.

Could our egos handle that?

Could we deal with Humanity looking at us as just a bunch of aberrated freaks while they whip out a gizmo that does whatever we do, and more?

[Singularity]

Juri, I believe Totem highlighted something important: quantum is taking the place of magic. Well, after a fashion. I do not think it is important that science can explain how you manipulate fire or how I have survived forces that can level any man-made object. I am just musing and adding another point of view.

Jager, while ingenuity has been the hallmark of humanity, I do believe the mental abilities of some novas will cause novas to remain further along the cutting edge than baselines, removing the advantage of ingenuity. Then again, I could be wrong.

[Hugin]

Why would Quantum take the place of Magic? As has been said by those much more eloquent than I, what differentiates Magic and Quantum?

I am a scientist, it is my tendency to look for the explanation. And, if I may be so bold, I have learned enough to have realized that an explanation that could be considered scientific is not always available.

Some things just are.

Just as we are a new Race we must possibly accept that there will be a new Way of things. Science may require the soul of a Shaman to truly be complete. Novas such as Totem and Salamander are likely more in tune with the new Way than I am.

But I'm trying.

[Archon]

Whoa Whoa Whoa!

GODS? Quantum Replacing primitive beliefs of "demons, or spirits, or divinity?"

So what the hell does that make me? God of Refrigerator Magnets?

i don't buy it. Magic died for a reason.

[Archon]

OOC: Sorry! Double Post Demon got me there.

[Wakinyan]

Quote:

Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:
Novas such as Totem and Salamander are likely more in tune with the new Way than I am.

Wow. Thanks Prodigy.

[Sakurako Hino]

Quote:

Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:
Why would Quantum take the place of Magic? As has been said by those much more eloquent than I, what differentiates Magic and Quantum?

I am a scientist, it is my tendency to look for the explanation. And, if I may be so bold, I have learned enough to have realized that an explanation that could be considered scientific is not always available.

Some things just are.

Just as we are a new Race we must possibly accept that there will be a new Way of things. Science may require the soul of a Shaman to truly be complete. Novas such as Totem and Salamander are likely more in tune with the new Way than I am.


But I'm trying.

Interesting... Although, I'm more prone to fits of fantasy than others, so it's easier for me to believe that things such as magic back in the times of myth are actually quantum gifts.

But, I doubt that having the juice is the only explaination for metsphysical phenomena or the manifestation of Gods and Goddesses. Have you considered possible extra-terrestrial influences and technologies? Or perhaps advanced human technology lost untill a certain period of time and found by those who'd become Gods or Sorcerors?

Yes, just a fantasy, but fantastic speculation and tall tales I am finding to be my specialty.

(Edit; I'm sorry for mixing several points in that post, I was more pointing to the fact that such things in myths and legends may not just be explaned by someone having abilities like us.)

[Vox Via]

I have read many amusing writing on this subject, but I must admit this is one the most. Let me start with what is science, it means to separate. To find out what is and what is not. This idealogicly does not run directly opposed to divine powers, nor religion. You can have a religion based on ideas that are proveable by science. Take this simple one. The sun is God. If I built a religion around this mind set, I would not have to ignore science. I would just have to change my views on what it means to be a god. By many means the Sun could be called God. But that is not the point.

Now I say this, as one quote few people use. It is one the basis of science.

“I can prove you everything I know is true, if and only if you accespt my tools that I work with. For no mater the times I show you my tests, if you do not trust my tools, I am just another preacher claiming my lordship over the world. That is, at least to you.”

Here is a little idea that I have. We believe nothing can move faster than light, and we base this on the fact we can’t prove anything else moves faster. We test speed of objects based on light. Also as far as I know the only test that proved that the speed of light was constint at “C” has never been reproduced dispite numberous tries. Why do I bring this up? Because this is to me a show of blind faith in sciencetific mindsets.

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:


Could we deal with Humanity looking at us as just a bunch of aberrated freaks while they whip out a gizmo that does whatever we do, and more?

The parallel to this argument is, of course...

After we grind their little gizmo to powder underneath our bootheal, what happens then? Could humanity simply look at us as aberrated freaks when their technology fails to deal with us?

[Jager]

Ashnod, a hundred other gizmo-wielders go "tut-tut" and shut us down for being socially deviant ... or they just extract our nodes.

Right now, biology has trumped technology, but it would be foolish to think this will always be the way things are.

[Ashnod]

And with a single expression of quantum, a Nova completely elminates electrical technology all together. Or a single nova develops an immunity to your supposed gizmo and kills every single gizmo wielder.

We can play that kind of ping pong match all day long.

[Ghostwriter]

I shudder to think we might see a time where novas and baselines are fighting each other...

[DigiGeist]

We're in it now, Ms. McLachlan. Look around you. CoMA hunts us daily, Nova Elites smash Baseline Regimes, Baseline Cults eat Nova flesh, it's all there.

We just don't dare look because it is there. And it both disgusts and scares us.

[Jager]

True enough, Ashnod. After all, we could be described as "adaptive technology" ourselves.

On the brighter side, novas may provide explanations (through the study of our existence, as well as our hyper-minds) to existence that haven't been contemplated, or understood, before now.

After all, we have FTL travel (congrats if you've stepped from Farmington Ill. US to Io, you have traveled faster than the speed of light), proving that the possibility exists. We create matter from energy, defy gravity, possess a gambit of psychic-like powers, and some of us are even immune to the common cold.

Now, if only we could create giant fighting robots that could battle in large cities without devastating them.

[ronin]

Fuck. If only you fucking knew.

[H. 'Machine' Mann]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
True enough, Ashnod. After all, we could be described as "adaptive technology" ourselves.

"Adaptive biology" would be more accurate as it doesn't require redefining the definition of the word "technology". Of course the biologic adaptation is the limited to the node itself as what follows from that development is adaptive to the point of trascending the restrictions and limitations of biology itself.

[Machina]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
Now, if only we could create giant fighting robots that could battle in large cities without devastating them.

Are you insinuating I fucking can't or in fact haven't already, Eichmann?

[Sakurako Hino]

*chuckle* and to think you guys mock me when I talk about such things. >.<

[Archon]

if we get giant robots,

we GOTTA have GODZILLA....

that would ROOOL!

[Sakurako Hino]

That's it... I'm building a Gundam. Nobody's stompin' my city into the dirt and get away with it!!!

*And if anyone takes this joke seriously, you need to rent a clue. Because I sure as hell wouldn't sell you one.*

[Alex Craft]

A Gundam? Wow, Sakurako ... still willing to play hardball with TechReg, then?

"Because I sure as hell wouldn't sell you one."

I guess I better start asking around, then. (c;

Of course, all of this suddenly becomes much less funny once you've seen one of those Dangard AW's the pink lady's countrymen have been selling to banana republic dictators. Anyone here been to Cambodia lately?

[Neil Preston]

Come on, Captain ... just for a test drive?

[Sakurako Hino]

I meant, Alex, that I had stated me building a gundam as a joke, and if you didn't get it as such you should rent a clue, because I damn sure as hell I wouldn't sell you one.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth.

[Archon]

GUNDAM?!!!?!

jeebus, you really are otaku aren't you?

Sakurako, i'd suggest something with alot less metal...

just a personal thing...

[Machina]

Don't worry, Big Gay Al, you won't see any of my creatures falling into the hands of puppet dictatorships anytime soon. The kind of power I weild by proxy through the Lovecraftian legion of machinery I've constructed is safe in the hands of myself alone. Because I'm the only person in the world smart enough to be trusted with it.

Fuck Gundam. I've got Metal Gear.

[Alex Craft]

"Thanks for putting words in my mouth."

Any time, but I meant that I should start asking around about finding a clue - since you wouldn't sell me one. [Got the joke. (c; ]

[Jager]

Quote:

Are you insinuating I fucking can't or in fact haven't already, Eichmann?

I'm insinuating you don't have the stones, mate. Oh, you may talk a good game, but behind it all, there is nothing but rubber bands and gerbil wheels.
Upgrade to hamsters before you try to run with the big dogs.

[Machina]

Sure thing, Eichmann. Can't argue with that kind of iron-clad logic. If only I somehow didn't require the validation of a sophomoric, laughably cryptic would-be know-it-all to feel good about myself or assure me that I have value as an engineer or technician.

I give up, dude. You get to be prom queen.