opnet [OpNet] All you Terats and Utopians...

[Ian 'Very Bad' Blakely]

I want to know why you hate us (Elites) so much.

Utopians: We are providing a service to nation states and legitimate corporations for the most part. We are private security or armies. You don't tell India or Pakistan to get rid of their standing armies, why pick on us?

Terats: I have chosen my life. No one forced me, no one is taking advantage of me. I do what I do because it is what I want to do. Isn't that your philosophy?

[kestrel404]

Mr. Blakely, I don't hate you. In fact, I don't think that Elites are hated on a personal level, except by those they have hurt.

But as a general rule, I wish your job was unnecessary. I dislike violence. Idealistically, it is abhorrent to kill another sentient being, to destroy what other have built, or even to need protection from the above. Pragmatically, the more violence there is in the world, the more likely it is I will be hurt.

I understand that you and other Elites are a necessary evil. I will not insult your life choices, but I will also not employ your services.

To answer the spirit of your question, I dislike elites in general because of the violence they represent. To put it in perspective, I feel (this is entirely personal, mind you) that elites are morally worse than thieves, but better than soldiers in general.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

In no special order:

1) You make war easier and popular.

2) You turn novas who would be otherwise be productive members of society into killers or corpses.

3) By promoting outside of the law solutions you promote lawlessness.

4) Most of the solutions you offer are generally a good example of short term gains exchanged for long term loses. Kashmir should be a problem for Diplomats, not soldiers. My activities in South America didn't affect the price of drugs a dime's worth. In both of those cases the money that is being spent on elites could have been spent on less flashy but more productive solutions.

5) RE: "Providing Security"

If the security provided is against other elites, one must ask what has been gained.

If the security provided is against baselines, that normally indicates something the law should be involved in. And if the law isn't working, the use of elites prevents the need for it to be fixed which isn't a good thing either.

[Ghostwriter]

I have to agree with both Dr Troll and Alchemist, but I also have personal reasons for disliking Elites. Kashmir is Hell on Earth, and anyone who actually volunteers to go there is in need of psychological help, in my biased opinion.

[Ian 'Very Bad' Blakely]

Then why do I keep seeing blue and yellow uniforms whenever I'm there?

[Ghostwriter]

Because our job is to keep the peace, something that seems to have escaped you and your colleagues.

[Bastian]

Hate Elites? Not really. Few Terats I know even hold an opinion about elites. Then, there are the Terats who are elites.

Brother, a level of distain does exist. You are a Titan working for savages.

They will give you money. They will give you trinkets and beads. They will laude you and place you on a chart so everyone will know how good at beating, maiming, and killing your own people you are.

They will also chastise you for killing too many of their own kind, though. Has the oddity of that ever occured to you?

I, for one, no longer argue the place of elites in society. It is your freedom to live your life as you chose.

I do find the murder of our own, for whatever reason, to be something I am more and more opposed to.

Very Bad, what have your murders accomplished?

[Ian 'Very Bad' Blakely]

Quote:

Originally posted by Regan 'Codex' McLachlan:
Because our job is to keep the peace, something that seems to have escaped you and your colleagues.

Hmmmm, the Indians have nova fighting for them and the Pakistanis do to. Sounds like we're the ones' who are wanted there and you're just butting in.

[ronin]

It seems you've already heard the Utopian point of view. If you want the answer of a Terat, Ian, I can provide it for you. This isn't my actual opinion, mind, but if you want to know what your more thoughtful Terat would say about Elites, he would tell you that you're a sad waste of potential and a fool to work for baselines, pimping yourself to your evolutionary inferiors for things that you either don't need or could easily take. You are a god, and you stoop to serve and scrape at the feet of monkeys for a paycheck and the occassional line of coke or piece of snatch. These are the trappings of the weak, Ian. They are diversions of the mewling, screaming, barely-competent masses who want nothing more than bread and circuses to entertain them while Rome burns around them. And here you stand, leagues above any mere man, and rather than exploring your divinity, testing the limits of your potential and adding something to your brothers and sisters in quantum, you fucking pimp yourself like Miss Universe allowing herself to be gang-fucked on the planet of the apes, and all for a couple of bananas.

The Teragen proper doesn't hate you or any other elite, Ian. They just wish you would fucking wise up.

[ronin]

Dr. Troll.

3) By promoting outside of the law solutions you promote lawlessness.

With all due respect, kind sir, that's a fallacious argument, and one I thought you were above.

Law enforcement personnel aren't elected. They aren't voted into office. And if they do a poor job, they can't be voted out. They can be fired, to be sure, but you know very well that doesn't happen often, even in cases of extreme abuse.

It's worth noting also that law enforcement personnel are also citizens themselves. They have additional training and all efforts are made to ensure that they take their job seriously and have the best interests of social welfare at heart, but they are still merely men, no different then Lenny the Butcher or Donald the Liquor Store Clerk in regards to weaknesses and vicissitudes.

That said, law enforcement is an institution put into place by the consent of the majority. The police are able to perform their job, likewise, at the consent of the majority. For the police to be ineffective, all that would need happen is for people to cease recognizing their authority en masse. In short, they do their job because we as a society -- they, as a society -- allow them to.

When a law officer goes bad and is subsequently undone, there is often a public outcry. Papers publish this sort of juicy business, you know. Letters are written, people are notified, and if the cop is bad enough, he goes away in handcuffs, himself. The bottom line here is that if enough people disapprove of one's actions, it doesn't matter how much or how little "authority" (an artificial construct of a society that allows you to wield it) one has. In the end, as long as the many are in consensus and can overpower the few, the overall cultural mores and values will be upheld.

Taking this information into account, I would like you to tell me how a law officer is different from a vigilante. Though I will acquiesce to the point that the vigilante isn't paid, isn't protected by the law, has only the authority he reaches out and grabs and is in all other ways at a disadvantage comparatively.

The law, too, is an artificial construct, Dr. Troll, and is only as sedement as the mob.

[Ian 'Very Bad' Blakely]

Ronin, so, a thoughtful Terat assumes there is only one reason that an Elite is an Elite? Doesn't sound very thoughtful. Yeah, some of us do it for the money. Some of us, like Tank Choulat, do it because they feel they are heroes reborn and only through battle can they earn the worship, riches and women that they are due. Others are exploring violence as expression. Some, myself included, feel fulfilled on the field of battle and are trying to make an impact on how war is fought on this world. There are an unfortunate few who need the wreck havoc due to one reason or another and the life of an Elite is one of the few available to them.

Are our reasons perfect and inarguable? I don't make that claim, but I do refute your argument that we take the field simply to satisfy the needs and wants of baselines and to line our pockets with filthy lucre.

[ronin]

Do I need to once again underscore, Ian, that what I wrote was not necessarily my opinion? As someone who has known many Terats, I was simply giving you an educated guess as to what one might tell you.

And I'll go you one better. Furthermore, they would ask of you that if you aren't an elite for the money, then why do you accept payment? Don't forget, Ian, you work for them. You are the employee of baselines. You have chosen to subjigate yourself to the desires and agendas of baselines instead of striking out on your own. If you really just wanted to make an impact, Ian, you could do it on your own.

[Ian 'Very Bad' Blakely]

Quote:

Originally posted by ronin:
Do I need to once again underscore, Ian, that what I wrote was not necessarily my opinion? As someone who has known many Terats, I was simply giving you an educated guess as to what one might tell you.

Oh my. So sorry. I forgot we're doing the "Some people would say that you are a weak-willed, bloodthirsty, drug and sex addicted slave to baselines, but I'm not the one saying it. I'm just mouthing other peoples opinions because I don't have the sack to speak my own mind." Insult me with your own words Ronin or don't bother speaking to me.

Quote:

Originally posted by ronin:

And I'll go you one better. Furthermore, they would ask of you that if you aren't an elite for the money, then why do you accept payment? Don't forget, Ian, you work for them. You are the employee of baselines.

Uhm, wrong. I am the employee (actually contracted free-agent) of Anna Devries, a nova. If I worked for the Janissaries you would be correct. However, I do not. I take my contracts from Devries and Devries only and I do that because Anna Devries is in charge. Carrington has some sway, but I've been in the game long enough that I take the contracts I want to take and no others. I understand that should I refuse too many that I could harm my position with the company, but my value is such that they try not to ask me to take those contracts that they know I would refuse. Yes, there have been occasions when I have taken a contract and some simpering little baseline tyrant has tried shouting orders at me. Those contracts were fulfilled professionally and quickly. In the end however I did my best to make sure both Devries administration and Devries Elites aware of the tyrants attitude. Tyrants are a dime a dozen, while well-trained and experienced Elites are worth their weight in gold. In the end, most of my temporary 'bosses' are well aware that I am to be treated with respect if they want to retain their positions of power.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Dr. Troll: 3) By promoting outside of the law solutions you promote lawlessness.

ronin: I would like you to tell me how a law officer is different from a vigilante.

A law officer is a representative of the law, and thus society.

A vigilante (or elite) is a representative of himself or his employer.

If you don't like what a law officer is doing, you hire lawyers, or reporters, or change laws. Any of these actions can be taken without damage to society itself. If you don't like what a vigilante is doing, you may be forced to hire other lawless people.

If you can't get society to protect you, and you have the money, you hire your own private army. South American countries have gone that route and found that vigilantes become death squads, and death squads then become a rule, and law, unto themselves.

[DeathSquad]

Why I just start coming onto this marvelous forum and someone mentions me by name and a Utopian to boot. How nice....

[Preston]

Thank you, Doctor Troll.

There are a few points I would like to make clear.

First off, whenever a regime has sought to oppress the society it, the police force has failed them. They have been forced to create "special squads", or a secret police. All too often, the policeman identifies with the populace he, or she, protects, and not the politicians giving them orders.

Secondly, police officers have always been responsible to the society they have operated in. Police officers can only get away in operating in a way society accepts.

Yes, sometimes that means cops take bribes, kick-backs, and protection money. They have violated civil rights, shot suspects, and framed innocent people.

I'm in no way saying this is right, but it has happened.

And, cops have been held accountable for these actions as well. When they cross that line that is the limit of what society allows, they have been punished. That is how society and the police operate.

In places were the rule of law is strong, it is easiest to see this in action. Even in places were it is weak, or nearly non-existent, it still works.

The vigilante operates outside of that understanding. They select themselves to be the arbitrators of justice, attempting to take that right away from society.

By the way, I don't consider elites to be vigilantes. In the end, it is some interest that pays them to be there. In conventional understanding, that would make them mercenaries.

Mr. Blakley, while it may seem comendable that you do not take every contract thrown your way, the end result is that some other elite will take it. They are either less scrupulous, less experienced, or hungrier for the things you already have.

I do thank you for reminding us that it was Anna DeVries that created elites and elite warfare. As I remember it, she, along with DeBeer's financing, that put a madman nova in charge of the DRC.

[ronin]

Ian.

Those words aren't mine, Ian, but they were, once upon a time. I know this might sound kind of crazy to you, but believe it or not, I'm capable of thinking objectively and stepping into the shoes of a viewpoint that isn't mine and speaking with authority from the point of view of someone else.

You want me to insult you in my own words? Fine. I think you're a sophomoric, lizard-brained thug with delusions of mediocre self-importance. Suck it.

Dr. Troll.

You missed my point completely. But I don't want to steal Ian's thunder. We'll pick up this discussion elsewhere.

[Ian 'Very Bad' Blakely]

Ronin, okay, now we're getting somewhere. Thank you for showing the courage to actually speak in your own voice. Interesting that it is nowhere near as eloquent as when you're stealing someone else's words.

So, may I ask:

Why am I sophomoric? Specifically please. Why am I deluded and why and I "lizard-brained"?

[ronin]

Nice try, Ian, but really, I don't feel that way about you. You asked me to insult you; I obliged. I don't know you well enough to make that kind of judgement about you.

I don't approve of the DeVries corporation or their actions and to an extent I agree with the template Terat philosophy I presented, but not to that degree, nor do I feel there are no exceptions, because time and experience has shown me that exceptions exist to every rule.

However, now that we're on it, I will say this much;

You have the online presence of a snarky seventeen year-old girl. Don't be so damn confrontational, you hot-blooded little minx! You're going to make the amatuer psychologists think you have self-esteem problems.

[Apep]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ian 'Very Bad' Blakely:
Why am I sophomoric? Specifically please. Why am I deluded and why and I "lizard-brained"?

Don't feel too bad sport, there isn't a thing wrong with being "lizard-brained".

[ronin]

Oh, Apep, you dry, Ophidian madwoman.

I missed you.

[Great Monster C]

Well, I'm not a Utopian but I can answer your question. I hate the fact that you revel in violence. We've evolved. Human Beings have evolved beyond the need to exult in misery and pain. You're a giant step backwards and it isn't backwards into epic glory, it's backwards into screaming at the night and flinging feces.

[Apep]

Violence has been a part of my existence as long as i can remember. I revel in violence because I celebrate my life. I may not be an elite, but I am not a devolved animal. Violence has nothing to do with evolution and you are confusing evolution with some derranged sense of enlightenment.

Oh, and ronin, I missed you too.

[Wakinyan]

Quote:

Originally posted by Great Monster C:
I hate the fact that you revel in violence. We've evolved. Human Beings have evolved beyond the need to exult in misery and pain.

I have to ask Cookie. Since I have erupted I notice my body and most of my abilities are centered around Violence. Tools that have been given to me allow me to hunt and kill with supreme efficiency. When I smell blood I can only describe it as almost orgasmic. When I see something run from me I feel compelled to chase it down, kill it and eat it. Basically all the fun little instinctual responses. If Novahood is a step up did I step in the wrong direction in your opinion?

Now keep in mind I don't find the passion in pure combat like others do but I do feel it is a part of who I am. Is who I am wrong?

[Great Monster C]

Totem, I don't know you very well. So I'll ask; do you give into these feelings? If so, learn to control yourself, you don't have the right to wreck havoc just because your hormones tell you its a good idea. If not, then congratulations, you're doing a better job of controlling yourself than some of the node-bearing three year olds we see so often on the OpNet.

Apep-You celebrate your life by ending other's lives? I can't begin to describe how sick that is. Welcome to the company of Charles Manson and Ted Bundy.

[Apep]

I'm not trying to convince you that I'm right in what actions I choose. I don't particularly care that you have no idea where I'm coming from. I just wanted to point out that voilence and evolution have nothing to do with one another. Having strong instincts also does not mean that you are an evolutionary throw-back either. Strong instincts are in no way a flaw.

To answer your question Cookie, Yes. At times, Yes I do.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Totem:Now keep in mind I don't find the passion in pure combat like others do but I do feel it is a part of who I am. Is who I am wrong?

It is a tool. Knives have good and evil uses.

Granted, some tools are more easily abused than others. But basically you are what you make of yourself.

[Singularity]

Living with instinctual responses is something we have been dealing with for millenia, Totem. It seems to be more acute for you but the same concept applies. We all have the "lesser angels of our nature" and with time and discipline we learn how to deal with them. If you want, I can teach you some techniques in July.

[ronin]

I really feel all warm and fuzzy inside that your particular talents put you in a position to give warm fuzzies to all the little boys and girls of the world, Cookie, but unlike you, that is not what I was created for. I am a weapon, and with my gifts, to assume otherwise would be laughable. As Doc Troll said, a weapon is a tool, and the measure of it is defined by its use.

My particular use is irrelevant and additionally none of your fucking concern, because my point stands on it's own. Would you attempt to talk down a rabid dog, Cookie? Would you negotiate a serial killer into docility? Obviously you wouldn't.

After all, you already advocated the idea of my "dealing with" DeathSquad. What precisely do you think I'm going to do, GMC? Tie him up with my magic lasso and deliver him to jail?

Like the character you've adopted, GMC, you seem to live in a fantasy world where every act of perceived iniquity is just a misunderstanding and the good guys always win. I myself cannot afford such childlike innocence, though I'm glad you can. It's not something I oppose, mind, I actually think it's good that people like you still exist. We all have our part to play.

But hands off my business, GMC. You don't understand what it is to be a warrior.

[Wakinyan]

I don't think you understand my situation Cookie.

You know how you get when you see a cookie? That is me with an Elk. Can I control it? Yes for the most part. Have I lost it? Yes, twice. To the point that I have no idea what I did during those times.

It is what I am. I try to redirect it and I do. Otherwise I would have been shot down like a dog months ago. But it grows and seethes within me and if not for some who you label outright murderers I probably wouldn't be much more than an animal now.

[Great Monster C]

Innocence? You fool. You complete unthinking fool. I work hard every day of my life to try to make the world a better place for children. Why? Because I realize that it can be better and for too many it isn't anywhere near good enough.

As for my being "lucky enough" to have been given the talents to fulfill my dream? Fuck you, you ignorant putz. Actually look into the people you want to insult. My dream was to be a puppeteer. Unfortunately, I was 5'4" and weighed 175 pounds. Not exactly the long and lithe frame required for the work. My second, third and fourth dreams involved somehow being involved in the production of that which gave me joy. Bummer, no talent in those areas either. Being a lobbyist was way down on the list little man. But, I worked hard and was able to find some value in what I did. I erupted and ended up with a form that actually makes me doing what I do almost ridiculous. My strength, stamina and resistance to harm are worth a fart in a whirlwind when it comes to doing my job. Absolutely useless and in fact it took me months to be able to interact well enough with the people that pissed me off without killing them that I had to work like a demon to get back into the game.

Now, as for 'dealing with' that maniac? Yes, deal with him, deal with him in the manner that all truly sick individuals like that need to be dealt with. Capture him and send him to Bahrain where he won't be able to hurt anyone and hopefully Utopia can help him so that someday he can be called on to answer for his crimes. We are not animals, we are not beasts. Unthinking slaughter is beneath us.

And you. You were 'created' to be a weapon? At least I'm able to recognize that the fucked up psyche that I had pre-eruption has some responsibility for how I turned out. But you, you were 'created' to be this killer. And, apparently as a part of this creation is you having the utter lack of control or will power to decide to do something other than the easy thing. So, you were 'made' to kill? Who says you have to give into that? Ruben Carter was 'made' by genetics and society to beat the ever loving hell out of men in a ring. He moved beyond that, he grew into a marvelous mind and voice for justice. He could have taken the chickenshit way out and embraced hatred and violence. Most wouldn't have blamed him.

You sound like some petulant 13 year old girl. You are unique and special. You're problems are so much greater than anyone else has ever experienced. No one could ever understand the depths of your anguish. Oh, you're a 'warrior' and I could never understand you. You're a loudmouthed little thug who thinks because he's dangerous that makes him tragic and unique.

[ronin]

Cookie, Cookie, Cookie.

You'd think by now some genius fucking nova would have developed a way to portray things like sarcasm and patronization on the OpNet. Alas, you took my barbs seriously. But trust me, fuzzy, I was smiling. I've read your dossier, friend. I just like twisting the knife. I'm a real fucker like that, when it comes to self-righteous, unrealistic pricks like you.

Believe it or not, I agree with you. I love kids. That's part of why I do what I do. I make the world better for children too, in my own way. It's a bit more direct than yours, but not nearly as broad in scope or implementation. Still, you can't argue with results.

I think it's kind of funny that you scold me for misjudging(?) you, yet you seem well-prepared to draw some pretty erroneous conclusions about me. You seem to think that just because I have killed people and that I consider myself a warrior, that I must be some snarling, ravenous savage who kills for little or no reason. Maybe you just think there's never a reason to kill anyone else ever, but I don't see you on the front lines.

I have been given some pretty awesome gifts, but I'd like to think that I am more than the sum of my quantum powers. You don't know me personally so I won't bother to extrapolate on my individual pursuits, but there's more to me than just battle. And of course, I don't use my powers solely for combat. I'm not so dense that I can't see many potential uses for my abilities, and I regularly bend them to many esoteric needs. But the fact remains that combat is my forte, the thing that I am best at, the thing that, yes, I was created for. One cannot deny his dharma. Mine is to be a warrior. That doesn't mean there's nothing else to me. You just don't necessarily see that side of me, Cookie.

And for the record, GMC, I don't have any problem being what I am. I don't sit back and lament my condition. I don't cry to the heavens "Oh, woe is me!! For I have become a weapon of warfare, and know no else!! Woe, for now I must spill blood e'ermore!!" No, Cookie. I like being the way I am. Like Apep, I revel in my condition, and I do not limit myself to that facet of myself alone.

If a monster I be, than by god, I am a willing one.

On a brief aside...have you ever been to Bahrain, GMC?

I didn't think so.

[ronin]

It sounds like you've got a pretty specific problem, Totem, and one that I've encountered before. I might be able to put you in touch with some people who wrestle with a similar problem, if you're interested. No pressure or alliance; just sort of a discussion group for those with your unique disposition.

[Wakinyan]

I realize it is an issue I need to overcome. Luckily someone has stepped forward to at least give me advice and I think they can help me. Not to mention I think I... Now isn't the time for this subject.

[Singularity]

Wait, ronin, are you condoning vigilantism?

[Wakinyan]

Quote:

Originally posted by Franklin 'Singularity' Alden:
Wait, ronin, are you condoning vigilantism?

Singularity why does vigilantism have to be wrong? If a nova has a vast intellect, compassion,discipline and powers to see the truth and reasons. Then they could very well work better than any modern court in the world.

I notice people think this society, this civilization is the correct way things should be. Has anyone ever considered it might not be? I am not even saying anything like put the Novas in charge or anything I am just saying I think there is still a better way.

[ronin]

Franklin.

Yes.

[Singularity]

Quote:

Originally posted by Totem:
Singularity why does vigilantism have to be wrong? If a nova has a vast intellect, compassion,discipline and powers to see the truth and reasons. Then they could very well work better than any modern court in the world.

I notice people think this society, this civilization is the correct way things should be. Has anyone ever considered it might not be? I am not even saying anything like put the Novas in charge or anything I am just saying I think there is still a better way.

Actually, Totem, I asked so because I wanted to understand what ronin was saying. However, your words remind me of something from my past.

As a baseline in high school, I was apart of a capital punishment discussion in our mandatory civics class. I was arguing in the affirmative and an intellectual classmate was arguing the negative. I remember (now with crystal clarity) him quoting "not even the wisest can see all ends" and "not to be so quick to deal in death and judgment." At the time I did not understand what he way saying but most of the class did. I ended up hanging him from a flagpole by his underwear two days later because highlighted my ignorance.

Currently, I am more intelligent than any baseline could ever be and I know I cannot see all ends. Dr. Troll, Alchemist, and Codex are smarter than I am and I am fairly certain they feel the same way about themselves. Quantum powers and a node does not give us wisdom and foresight.

Hence, I do not think we are capable of making vigilantism extremely effective or even just. As for civilization... it will always be a work in progress. Baseline, nova, or combined.

Quote:

Originally posted by ronin:
Franklin.

Yes.

Ok then.

[Ghostwriter]

Quote:

Totem:
Singularity, why does vigilantism have to be wrong? If a nova has a vast intellect, compassion, discipline and powers to see the truth and reasons. Then they could very well work better than any modern court in the world.

Totem, honey, haven't you ever heard the old saying: 'You can put the government in the hands of the perfect man, but what do you do when the perfect man gets a bellyache?'

I don't think I need to say any more.

[Wakinyan]

There has been many chiefs of my people that where lone men who did their best for us. They had a council and where wise enough to listen to the councils. Your thinking is very western but I don't hold it against you.