opnet [OpNet] Haven.

[Miss Baby]

Haven, is what I am looking for.

Now, I am not running nor hiding. I just wish to set up a place that has laws written and enforced with novas in mind. Yes, a nova state of. No, not a teragen state. I see,the teragen as having some good ideas, and horrid practices.

One, if haven was made, it would not be only for novas but the laws would be such that novas can be themselves, without fearing what others think.

If Haven is made, it will respect international law, but will not play lap dog to Utopia. As such, it will have few, if any extradition treaties, seeing as a large part of Haven's population will be novas, and neither Haven's board of directors, or me trust Utopia's treatment of hostile novas.

Any thoughts are welcomed.

Ask anything you like.

[TUM TUM]

HOW MUCH FOOD YOU GET? YOU DONT NEED DUM LAWS. ALL PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW IS TUMTUM STRONGEST.

[Randal 'Glimpse' Heathman]

So tell me Ghetto Funky Baby will baselines be allowed into this paradise for the sake of manual labor and such? I sure as hell don’t want to have to flip my own burgers down at Happy Burger if you catch my drift.

[Bastian]

A noble idea, Sister Ghetto Funk Baby.

Don't worry about the simplier tasks, Brother Glimpse. I can find plenty of baseline humans to provide for our more basic needs.

What I am curious about are the laws themselves. Who will create these laws?

Who will enforce them?

What kind of punishments will be met out?

Also, what do you consider a nova, but non-terat state?

[Sphere]

Well, even if she makes some laws up, they won't apply to any other Nova. Right Bastion? I mean, we're all our own personnal nations. So no one has to do anything anyone else wants them to. Right? Whose got the right to stop me, or indeed punish me? By the philosophy of the Teragen, none of you.

Think I'm getting the hang of this Teras thing. Act like a teenager (baseline or otherwise), check.

[Bastian]

Little Brother, I could go over the message of the Null Manifesto over with you again, but I feel it would be pointless at this juncture.

Suffice it to say, if I chose to live in this Haven creation of Ghetto Funk Baby's, I would be submitting myself to it's laws and ideals.

How is it that you see everyone else's lives as so simple, yet yours is complex?

If you chose to maim or kill baselines under my protection, I would fight you. I claim what I feel I can protect. You are in your rights to contest that with me, if you feel you must.

To head off your next argument; if you claim the whole world, then you have chosen your fight poorly. You can't defend it, and every day, thousands of us prove it, it isn't yours.

[Miss Baby]

The laws wouldn't prevent baselines from doing anything,they simply wouldn't handicap novas.The this means novas would have the upper hand,based on their abilities.

And as to why is Haven,unlike teragen.

For starters. we would stop disavowing actions of citizens based on weither or not we like them.None of that,I didn't order it,and never said to do anything like that.But I am not sorry,nor sad.It was his calling,after all.The teragen will have friends,and allies with other members.They give aide in many ways, from money,places to live,body moving,and even fighting.But some how they only want PR for their "friendly face".You say look at how many teragen kill for little to no reason,and they say it wasn't me,or look at the teragen who don't! Either, police yourself,let someone else do it,or deal with the problems your misguided members bring to you. Yes, Haven will police ourselves.Haven will also work with international parties,when it is the best thing for everyone.

[Bastian]

The laws wouldn't prevent baselines from doing anything,they simply wouldn't handicap novas.The this means novas would have the upper hand,based on their abilities.

That's vague.

And as to why is Haven,unlike teragen.

But, since you do not understand what the Teragen is all about, how do you know it would be unlike it?

Haven will also work with international parties,when it is the best thing for everyone.

So, why do I get the feeling this would be about your ideas, dreams, and ambitions, and not all of ours?

[Miss Baby]

Bastian, is there a law forcing baselines to tone down,how friendly their smile is?How about telling them,not to strive to their physical limits, due archaic city planning,both at ground level,and sky-ward?Maybe you should tell me of laws that remove charming baselines from jurries?

My point is vague,becuase it is meant to be.

But,becuase "no one" not part of the teragen understands what it is about,it doesn't matter.You see, Teragen,hide behind agnst, hate, fear, greed, love,and all sorts of things. But,do to the fact they seem to only tell the in crowd what they stand for.(In many cases it either seems too,or out is counterdictive to it's self)That, the rest of the world is left with half truths to judge them,and we are not what we think of ourselves,to the world.We are too the world,what they think of us.

[Randal 'Glimpse' Heathman]

So...getting back on topic. Ghetto Funk Baby have you picked a location for this little paradise? Just curious cause I don't do cold, thanks to my killer metabolism I've only got about .0000096% body fat and I'm not as adaptable as some of my buddies. Is there a price for admission or a, you must be this tall/powerful to ride this ride sort of thing? What will the policies for nova/baseline interactions? Will there be a governing body? And if so how will they be chosen?

[Charr]

Quote:

Originally posted by Bastian:
But, since you do not understand what the Teragen is all about, how do you know it would be unlike it?
You see, Teragen,hide behind agnst, hate, fear, greed, love,and all sorts of things.

And yet another of the "if you can't explain it to me in zip terms the problem must be your error rather than my failure" brigade illustrating the difference between genetic and evolutionary potentials.

I gotta give props, Bastian. You and Ashnod; you're a tenacious lot. I still think you're wasting your time but it's your time to waste.

[Miss Baby]

Quote:

Originally posted by Randal 'Glimpse' Heathman:
So...getting back on topic. Ghetto Funk Baby have you picked a location for this little paradise? Just curious cause I don't do cold, thanks to my killer metabolism I've only got about .0000096% body fat and I'm not as adaptable as some of my buddies. Is there a price for admission or a, you must be this tall/powerful to ride this ride sort of thing? What will the policies for nova/baseline interactions? Will there be a governing body? And if so how will they be chosen?

Most likely in South America,this more to do with politics,and costs than comfort.But, having it be 70 in winter,doesn't hurt.

I do not have all the details,but how powerful you are will only help in Haven's willingness to help you.In other words,if your not wanted by the powers that be,and your a nova,then your free to come.If you wish haven,that is a bit tricky,so I say this,if someone such James 'Prodigy' Meehan,joined Haven,nothing short of war would get him out.(Or his free will.)Now Apep,would get a polite visiting pass,and asked never to return.

And Charr,you prove my point.We the teragen are misunderstood,and you all wouldn't understand. So, we won't even try to tell you!

[Bastian]

My initial reaction, little sister, is anger. I wanted to ask Apep to pay a housecall on your new little state when it gots set up.

But, that's wrong. You are trying, and that does count for something.

I find your comments about power interesting:

Will the amount of power you bring have a bearing on your status in Haven?

Will you account for contribution when determining society, even if this disadvantages baselines?

What would matter more, economic clout or military might?

Why would someone like Apep, or Geryon, be excluded, and would they not atleast be allowed to take their case to their fellow novas?

What about Divis Mal, or Ceastus Pax, or Totentanz?

[Miss Baby]

Because Bastian,wile Haven,will be a place for novas,and there will be laws.Some things Apep,and others have done would break those laws.

Now,Haven will,both push for Nova right,and to have as many past transgressions forgotten. Haven,doesn't stand for forget and forgive everything.

I am also,not the CEO of this venture.So, in Apep's case she pissed off someone with more power in this field,than me.

Now Haven,would in many cases try to midagate damage,and take in "problem" novas,if that nova understands the trouble,that Haven would most likely have gone threw to take them in.

Haven is about freedom,not equality.

[Ashnod]

Perhaps you could provide examples of said laws?

[Miss Baby]

Of laws of Haven,or laws that would bar your daughter citizenship?

[Ashnod]

....both would be examples of Haven's laws, yes? It matters little to me which you choose to share. I simply wish to see something more specific posted for our discussion than diffuse ideals.

[Miss Baby]

Well,let me start off by saying the laws in themselves aren't new.The way things are handled are.

Knowingly,willing and causing harm way to another.

Knowingly,willing and causing harm to another's propriety.

Knowingly, and willing forcing your will onto another,in way that would all parties would consent to.

those are the big easy ones.

[Ashnod]

....that was completely worthless endeavor. Let me try this again. What would be laws unique to Haven and what would be unique about their handling?

[Meridian]

How would the ways of handling them be new?

[Miss Baby]

Well, take me.It is not illegal for me to fall down,nor am I accountable for any harm,that said action causes.Unless, I am willingly and knowingly set up the events that lead to my falling.

As beautiful women have often in the past been cause for traffic jams,fights,and jelousy.Many novas have as well.Some have been sued for being themselves.

In both said cases,lose of freedom is often the result of these events.No mater if the person is an active part of part of the problem.Only those actively trying to harm others,are charged with harming others.The cases of"mistakes" will be looked into.

As for how will this manor of handling maters be new.Well, people first had rules of nature,this worked for a time.It wasn't fair,or just.But things were simple.Then came rule of "kings",again not that good,but still better than rule of nature.Now,most have rule of law,fair and rather uncaring in most nations.The problem is people forget that sometimes the meaning of the words,aren't the meaning of the law.

Also, prisons do not work.In many ways they are counter productive.I could list reasons why,they don't work,but I hope reason and logic will show you why.

[Ashnod]

....Nevermind.

Tell whomever your CEO/benefactor is that he or she could benefit greatly from a more eloquent, direct, and knowledgeable mouthpiece.

[Miss Baby]

Your questions are diluted by topics that are purposely left vague.

Legal concepts are some of the striving goals of the greatest,and the worst minds ever made by Earth's gene pool. Commonly, laws are written to try to anticipate every outcome that could passably happen. Keeping in mind the nature of humans, success is highly improable. It is impossible with novas,as no two novas have the same abilities. As such no one can reasonably expect any single law to hold entirely true. Seeing as this is the case,one must ask this; If there is no unflawed law,why have laws?

To answer this,one must answer what is the nature of man,and nova? Seeing,as no sign from the heavens has answered this,we must work with our flawed reasonings. This is even more true with novas,than without novas,as in spite the nova mind,the nature of each nova frequently defines its' self in a manor that precludes it from being defined within the norm of novas. But seeing as it is unreasonable to assume anyone knows everything,no one knows everything,the only logical conclusion is often to make due with the most reasonable answer that has the fewest flaws.

And while rule of law in any form is primitive, no other systems have been proven to be better,based on large populitions. More so in tightly populated areas.

Haven strives to make it so that the laws are as flexible as possible, being more likely to side on letting the "guilty" go free,than punishing the inocent. This is based the ideal, that justice is not a game, nor about vengeance.

[Ashnod]

Actually, I was approaching it from another angle. Your first post specifically stated: Any thoughts are welcomed. Ask anything you like.

The purpose of such a post is seemingly to both advertise your idea, and generate interest in not only having it become a reality but also finding Novas willing to reside within it.

You said ask questions. I did. I received no real answer. I asked for specifics. I was told the topics and answers are deliberately vague. Telling me that the enforcement of any laws Haven has will be more flexible than current laws of other nations tells me nothing. Fine. But I also asked you what laws unique to haven there would be, since you are touting this project as a new development for Nova/baseline co-existence. The best you could provide to me was, essentially, Thou Shalt Not Kill and Thou Shall Not Steal.

At no time did I ask for an explanation of why current justice and legal systems do not work. That is, however, the majority of what I have received in reply to my initial query. You're telling me that you're not going to do it like "them." Fine. Tell me how you are going to do it, but don't simply point out the flaws of systems you plan to not emulate.

You therefore have not sufficiently picqued my interest for me to continue pursuing this conversation further. Nor have you convinced me that this anything more than a trolling.

[Jager]

Hey, there.

How about this, Anne:

Will telepathic interrogation be allowed?

How about the presentation of precognative evidence?

How about postcognative evidence?

How about Thought Crime?

How about Pre-Emptive Criminal Enforcement?

What Civil Liberties would be enforced?

What substances (SOMA, for instance) and activities (prostitution, of instance) would be allowed?

How are you going to handle criminal acts committed outside of the nation's jurisdiction?

What about extradition?

What would Foreign Currency regulations be like?

How would Opnet Crime be handled?

Space Treaties?

Would it be a member of the UN?

Would the Self-Defense Force (you can call it the Armed Forces, if you like) be manditory conscription?

What would the Technical Regulations be like? Would Utopia still hold sway?

I am wanted in a handful of countries for various acts (mostly dealing with theft and criminal tresspass, but their are some murder charges in two countries), though I am totally innocent. What would my status be? Can I be in the same club as Apep?

[Miss Baby]

Will telepathic interrogation be allowed?When dealing with crimes of mental nature,national maters,mentally-impaired,and to verify statments.The last part would be mainly used on expert witnesses,and lawyers, or defendants who ask for it.

How about the presentation of precognative evidence?Only to act as warnings,and evidence in trials.

How about Thought Crime?I would love to answer this one,really I would,but truthfully,aside from the comments above I can't truly say.Not all the laws are made,and or are being revised, but from last word.I would say, largely done case by case.

What Civil Liberties would be enforced?

One can't enforce liberies.This is a common mistake.Liberties are things the government doesn't do.You have the liberty of free speech,because the government doesn't tell you not say what you want.As to what liberties you can expect?You can do anything you want,but your rights end at another persons health.

What substances (SOMA, for instance) and activities (prostitution, of instance) would be allowed?

Any drug that simply making it doesn't cause harm to anyone,other than those making it,is legal.Drug problems shall be treated like a social illness.

How are you going to handle criminal acts committed outside of the nation's jurisdiction?

Well,Haven will treat any of it's citizens as national tersures.So,any Haven citizen held captive by a foreign state will be considered an insult,at best.This mainly do most nations inhumane prison systems

What about extradition?Rare at best.More likely to deport said criminals to the closest border.

How would Opnet Crime be handled?

I can't answer this,other than to say no opnet crime from within Haven will be out of it's jurisdiction

Would it be a member of the UN?Yes,but mainly as a formality.

Would the Self-Defense Force (you can call it the Armed Forces, if you like) be mandatory conscription?

For some crimes,and some foreign nationals wishing citizenship.

What would the Technical Regulations be like? Would Utopia still hold sway? Not likely,the powers that be in Haven,and within the ally sates of Haven, wouldn't mind seeing another nova power base to keep Utopia in line.

You may have a home in Haven.

[Miss Baby]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:
Actually, I was approaching it from another angle. Your first post specifically stated: Any thoughts are welcomed. Ask anything you like.

The purpose of such a post is seemingly to both advertise your idea, and generate interest in not only having it become a reality but also finding Novas willing to reside within it.

You said ask questions. I did. I received no real answer. I asked for specifics. I was told the topics and answers are deliberately vague. Telling me that the enforcement of any laws Haven has will be more flexible than current laws of other nations tells me nothing. Fine. But I also asked you what laws unique to haven there would be, since you are touting this project as a new development for Nova/baseline co-existence. The best you could provide to me was, essentially, Thou Shalt Not Kill and Thou Shall Not Steal.

At no time did I ask for an explanation of why current justice and legal systems do not work. That is, however, the majority of what I have received in reply to my initial query. You're telling me that you're not going to do it like "them." Fine. Tell me how you are going to do it, but don't simply point out the flaws of systems you plan to not emulate.

You therefore have not sufficiently picqued my interest for me to continue pursuing this conversation further. Nor have you convinced me that this anything more than a trolling.

Flexibility of law enforcement changes the nature of laws,and "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is in reference to the ten conmandments.Do you remember the came after number ten?The killing of all the unworthily.

See,based on how a law is interpreted and enforced,it could legal to kill based ideological disputes, complete mistakes,self-preservation, race, and many other reasons. Is it always the same "law"?

Also,even if the above is wrong thou shall not kill,is different than thou shall not harm.As killing is not always harmful.

So,if legal ethics are not with in your grasp now,I can offer you good reference books.

One last thing, you ask what you want,that never implies you will like the answer you get.Now, please take your ego, racism, and blind spots back to your hole.

[Charr]

Doesn't this shit sound familiar to any of you?

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ghetto Funk Baby:
Flexibility of law enforcement changes the nature of laws,and "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is in reference to the ten conmandments.Do you remember the came after number ten?The killing of all the unworthily.

Was meant that all you have indicated in your replies to be was that Haven will operate under common morality. You're assuming Thou Shalt Not Kill and Thou Shalt Not Steal are entirely Catholic ideas, which they are not.

See,based on how a law is interpreted and enforced,it could legal to kill based ideological disputes, complete mistakes,self-preservation, race, and many other reasons. Is it always the same "law"?

Nonetheless, you still had not provided examples of laws unique to Haven. Nor had you provided examples of how Haven would handle them. Had you truly been interested in answering my question, you could have given a simple rule, any rule, and then provided a number of different ways it could have been applied. However, you did not.

So,if legal ethics are not with in your grasp now,I can offer you good reference books.

Quite the contrary. You're assuming that I do not understand what has been said. I understand perfectly, and find no favor with your current presentation.

One last thing, you ask what you want,that never implies you will like the answer you get.Now, please take your ego, racism, and blind spots back to your hole.

Fascinating. Perhaps you'd like to expound on this for me. Where, in the previous statements above, have I demonstrated racism or blind spots? Ego, however, I make full claim of.

I might also point out that opening your thread to questions, and having your replies to those questions be loose explanations of why you cannot answer them doesn't tend to endear your point of view to those who may have interest.

I would have liked an answer, period, rather than being told the question could not be answered. Point of fact: I asked for specific answers, which you gave without debate to Jager. This would have all been avoided had shown me the same courtesy when I first posted. Therefore, I must assume your behavior prior to my mouthpiece comment was meant to be deliberately empty to me and me alone. Ergo, you could have asked me to give you specific examples of offenses and you would provide examples of how they would be handled. You did not.

[Jager]

Would it be a member of the UN? Yes,but mainly as a formality.

Anne, there is no such thing. If you join the UN, you accept, among other things, Project Utopia Science Oversight, WHO regulations, and the IMF (not Impossible Missions Force, but International Monetary Fund ), among other things.

I understand that you could give lipservice to said regs, but to do so would be at great risk.

Anne, I know of 5 or 6 novas who would do something like this; only two of which would use you in this enterprise. I don't think your idea of a nova-state would match theirs. Don't be their pawn in this. Wait til you can actualize your own dream, not that some closeted, manipulative hack.

Speaking of which, James, Eloise has made a tragic error. I thought you and your competitors would want to know.

[Hugin]

Miss Funk Baby, since you seem to be at odds with Ashnod perhaps I may ask the same question but be afforded a more direct answer?

Could you please give an example of a specific law that would be unique to Haven? Unique in regards to laws governing Nova behavior to be even more specific.

I will offer some possibilities.

How would the powers of Cyberkinetics be restricted or governed?

Would a Nova whose mere existence was harmful to baselines be charged with negligence, assault or murder if they ended up killing a baseline through proximity?

How would you adjust for precognitives in the businesses of gambling or the futures market?

Just some possibilities.

[Miss Baby]

Ahsnod, "thou shall not kill" is not a catholic idea. Any more than thou's spiritual teachers shall have sex. In those words it is a Jewish idea,one dating back to the time when their god was still based in regional power. In fact the idea of God as most know it today,didn't come into favor until the Jewish empire was destroyed. I mean,the time before the Romans. So, unless the catholic religion started in secret hundreds of years before Jesus was born,they some how were controlling the Jewish Ribies,for that time. No it is not a catholic idea.

Do to my records on you,both from personal, studies,and trusted sources your lack regard towards baseline endeavors prevents you from grasping needed subject maters to understand the unique laws.One,killing is not illegal,causing harm is.But,you let that one slip by you.

[Ashnod]

....

....

So you spent most of that post explaining to me something I had already stated? I never said it was Catholic. I said it was common morality.

And again, I didn't miss what you had said. I said all you had provided was common morality without specifics.

[Miss Baby]

Would a Nova whose mere existence was harmful to baselines be charged with negligence, assault or murder if they ended up killing a baseline through proximity?

Well, most likely not a crime,unless said nova prevents the victim from leaving the area of effect.Now,it would be wise for said nova to warn those who could be hurt by the effect.

How would you adjust for precognitives in the businesses of gambling or the futures market?

Haven will not have any nationally sponsored gambling.Being that any gambling would be done by private citizens,Haven would have no moral,or ethical personality to how the owners of such places wish to lose,or gain money.

There shall be no law preventing,or limiting the knowledge that can be used on the intellectual value of ideas.Seeing,as stocks and currencies are based on the faith of people,and no tangible objects,ones ability to see the future is not anymore unethical,than being smart enough to see economic trends.

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ghetto Funk Baby:

There shall be no law preventing,or limiting the knowledge that can be used on the intellectual value of ideas.Seeing,as stocks and currencies are based on the faith of people,and no tangible objects,ones ability to see the future is not anymore unethical,than being smart enough to see economic trends.

I most deeply regret as coming across as rude for what I am about to say, but I feel it necessary. If you cannot see the difference between an investor who investigates trends and acts on that knowledge and an investor who actually sees the future and is able to see unpredictable events (such as a late frost killing orange crops or an outbreak of wheat blight) then I would strongly suggest for your backer to find a new mouthpiece.

[Miss Baby]

I never said they were the same.I stated niether were less ethical.

Further more if someone can see the future,there is no ethical way to stop them from effecting markets.

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ghetto Funk Baby:
I never said they were the same.I stated niether were less ethical.

Further more if someone can see the future,there is no ethical way to stop them from effecting markets.

Yes, and the fact that you focused simply on ethics rather than econimic effect is one of the reasons I posted what I posted. A governments purpose is to facilitate order in a variety of ways. Economic order being of great import to any complex society the focus has to be on much more than simply ethics. You kept it a tad more simplistic than would be required. Thus my suggestion for a better armed spokesperson.

[Miss Baby]

And,would you ban what topics precognitive can talk of?Maybe reduce precognitive novas to modern day whores in "civilized" countries?While precognitive novas are disruptive in Markets,the very reasons they are,are disruptive,in themselves.(such as a late frost killing orange crops or an outbreak of wheat blight)

This way,nations often have stock piles and reserves.

But if the strongest case you have,is unfair footing of enomical stands,I recommend you stay away from stocks.As precognitive novas can just as easily stabilize goverments.By making it legal you increase,the likely hood of them acting as stabilizers,than destablizers.If for no other reasons,than greed.Other reasons being,less lose of productivity due "X factors".Not all precognitives see the same future,witch leads conflicting reports,and makes precognitives less trust worthily.

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ghetto Funk Baby:

But if the strongest case you have,is unfair footing of enomical stands,I recommend you stay away from stocks.

I'm not the one trying to make a case here. I'm simply asking questions, and expecting well thought out, explicit and extensive answers. I've had to pull what you've said out of you like it pained you. I'm not interested in arguing with you. I was interested in you actually answering, with specifics, some of the questions that had been posed. You are evidently reluctant to do that.

[Jager]

Personally, I can think of dozens of ways a Precognative nova would use their gifts in both profitable and productive ways.

You see a frost about to kill an orange harvest? Hire a Weather Manipulating nova to protect the crop.

You forsee an Opnet Crimewave battering the net worth of various Net providers? Get some CyberSkulls in on yourside, to preempt the attacks.

Right now, Precognative novas have various legal restrictions upon them. Would this change in Haven?