opnet [OpNet] To Ashnod.

[Sandy Davis]

I asked your daughter what she thought.

I then added what I thought.

She repsoned in a manor that is not out of the norm for her.

As you may not know Ashnod, I have friends in the teragen. Some of my closest friends are members of said policlub.But as Apep offtent comes from a point of view that makes the world seem rather black and white. I wished to clear up this topic.

Now, you missed read my feeling towards what I call God, and placed a sterotype on it as well. Who said God had moral code of right, wrong? Who said that God was a man with grey hair upon an ivory tower casting bolts of thunder down on those who do not bow the right way? But you will learn what I mean in good time. Right now I think you most likely are lost in your own world. I do not judge you on this. We all can only take in so much.

So wile I asked your daughter if she fallowed a sterotipical belief.It was only based on the facts that she fallows other ideals that would make that one possable as well.

Yes,I do not like,agree or even trust all the ideals the teragen hold to be true. But you mistake my dissagreing with a book, as dissagring with a libary. I hope I cleared things up.

Lastly if I hated the teragen so much, then why would I have let them hold on to something worth more to me than my own life?

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sandy Davis:
Apep, do you think only those of your policlub have the right to change?

Should I change back to the way I was when I first came here?Would you like that?Would you want me to have the power I have now, witht eh goals I used to have?If so I can make sure you get your wish..And I can makes sure to do all those acts in your name.

then again, I do not think only your policlub friends should have the right to change. I do not even think that only novas should have the right to change. The thing is that everything changes.not just you , me, humans, novas. Everything changes, you just do not want to see what is before you.

And if that wasn't enough...

you were asked something that is rather simple. Do you think that only the teragen have the right to change their views.

Your anwser was.I don't like you, so shut up.

I consider Endeavor a friend.I see in her things that should be fostered.those things happen to be related to things you seemingly want o destroy, because she is not a member of your policlub.

So I ask you this again. Do you think that only members of your club should have the rights to change their minds?

I would like you to read these posts again and then tell me that anything you said above actually applies to them.

Again, you're focusing on the Teragen. My post had nothing to do with your feelings or supposed friends in the Teragen. It had to do with using Apep's Terat allegiance as a defense. There was no other reason you would have mentioned it in the terms you did. Your additional comments that Apep would want to destroy "the things you feel should be fostered in Endeavor" because Endeavor isn't a Terat proves that you were using this as a weapon. Don't bother replying that you were honestly curious if Apep believed that only the Teragen had the right to change their minds. You can't possibly have asked a question that ludicrous with any degree of sincere curiosity and not expected to be ridiculed for your ignorance. That you asked it twice, both times expecting an earnest response, hints that you did expect a reply to this blantantly belittling quip...were you using her Terat allegiance as a weapon or were you simply foolish enough to think someone was going to give you an answer to that? Either way, it doesn't help your point-of-view, your defense of Endeavor, or how the rest of us perceive you.

And quite honestly, Sandy, I don't care about your feelings towards what determines a god. You're the one who is claiming to be a post-Nova creature, and claiming to have either been touched by or conversed with something divine. I don't know why you feel the need to "who said God was this?" when the issue of what defines a deity wasn't addressed. If you take offense to my "how mundane and unenlightened" remark, I offer no apologies, because this is the truth of the matter: Despite all of your claims that you have changed, the only discernable difference between your behavior now and your behavior before your hiatus is the amount of power you claim to wield.

Before you appeared merely as a screaming, irrational child. Now, however, you appear as an irrational child that is screaming because the other children won't acknowledge that her new toy is simply the most marvelous acquisition in the world.

[Sandy Davis]

How utterly mundane and unenlightened for someone claiming elevation in evolution and divinity.

And quite honestly, Sandy, I don't care about your feelings towards what determines a god. You're the one who is claiming to be a post-Nova creature, and claiming to have either been touched by or conversed with something divine. I don't know why you feel the need to "who said God was this?" when the issue of what defines a deity wasn't addressed.

Now I see two things wrong in these topics. First let me start with my views on god. you start off by saying, that i was mundane for someone who talked with god. I tried to explain what my god was, and you then say you do not care what I think.

So, I set forth a set of idea. Then you impose you views of what I mean.Then you say you do not care what i think. Odd, I say. unless you do not care what I say, then you would not respond to what I say.

then you have say that it is mighty high of me to claim to no longer being a nova. I say it is not higher than saying you are no longer human. Or do mean because I am the only one to think this, that I must be wrong?That my moral judgment of my own body are so flawed that I do not know what I am? Do you not advocate that all novas must find their own truth? And keeping this in mind that you may not understand every nova's truth.

Lastly about Apep. She is a fanatic. That does not make the terageen wrong. i can't think of any group that doesn't have some of their own. It just so happens your daughter is one of the teras. So wile it may sound like i am attacking the teras threw her..It is the other way around. So by asking her view point on that topic, it changes the point from if she did not like Endeavor, to if she was a bigot. I asked twice because she did not answer.

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sandy Davis:
Now I see two things wrong in these topics. First let me start with my views on god. you start off by saying, that i was mundane for someone who talked with god.

Not correct. I said your method of arguing was mundane and enlightened for someone either claiming divinity or being touched by divinity.

I tried to explain what my god was, and you then say you do not care what I think.

Correct. I don't.

So, I set forth a set of idea. Then you impose you views of what I mean.Then you say you do not care what i think. Odd, I say. unless you do not care what I say, then you would not respond to what I say.

I care, Sandy, because just like Agnelli Celeste was doing on another post, you were using the reputation of the Teragen as a weapon. I will respond to such things as they appear. You just happened to the one who posted it.

I continue to respond to you because you insist on denying that you have done this.

Then you have say that it is mighty high of me to claim to no longer being a nova. I say it is not higher than saying you are no longer human.

What evidence do you have to support this? My arguments are backed by supportable scientific and psychological reports made by both baseline and Nova scientists, and considerable media publication. I have my own theories and studies on the matter, but I can support all of my arguments.

You, on the other hand, are a single being claiming something without anything but your own word to offer as evidence.

There is a far cry between me claiming NOVAS as a WHOLE to be a separate SPECIES from baseline humanity, and you claiming YOU are now different from ALL other NOVAS.

Or do mean because I am the only one to think this, that I must be wrong?That my moral judgment of my own body are so flawed that I do not know what I am?

Since you asked, yes, I don't think you are qualified to operate a computer, much less make a judgement upon the differences between you and me, or Antaeus, or Mal, or even Lemmy Chillmeister and Cody.

But since my opinion isn't a supportable defense, I'll have to rely on the fact that your opinion isn't sufficient to support your claims either. And, given your previous attempts at making any kind of coherent and cohesive argument here, your opinion means precious little to me.

I no more believe that you are no longer a Nova than I believe that Quantum Promise actually destroyed California.

Do you not advocate that all novas must find their own truth? And keeping this in mind that you may not understand every nova's truth.

I don't recall advocating anything of the sort. That's Mal's philosophy, and you're actually twisting the wording a bit in the process.(A true member of the One Race can sense their own laws within them...I beseech all members of Homo Sapiens Novas to follow the path that will lead them to a better understanding of what and who they are.) That there is a truth, not a path, for every Nova, is bastardizing that passage. I don't believe that each individual Nova has their own personal "truth." By such a definition, every sentient creature would have their own personal "truth," and that's not the message the Manifesto is espousing.

So wile it may sound like i am attacking the teras threw her..It is the other way around. So by asking her view point on that topic, it changes the point from if she did not like Endeavor, to if she was a bigot. I asked twice because she did not answer.

A bigot? You mean against non-Teragen Novas? Are you still incapable of understanding how ludicrous your question asked once was, let alone twice? "Do you believe only the members of your little policlub have the right to change their minds?" NOBODY in ANY organization ANYWHERE believes that. If they did, they could NEVER recruit or convert new members.

[Sakurako Hino]

I hate to interject, but this does involve me, even though in a tangental manner.

At least try to forgive Sandy, she meant well. But I seem to see that Apep has a valid point. One I'll have to digest.

I don't like seeing you two argue, It's just not right. Especially over I, who can fight my own battles. If Apep and myself were going to debate, we should have hashed out our differences like civilized Novas, not fighting through proxies that at least I don't recognise. I believe Apep would feel the same way.

Ashnod, I agree with you wholeheartedly that Sandy should have stayed out of the way, but then again saying such things would dub me a hypocrite since I've interjected here. But, I needed to let my point of view on this be heard.

I'm sorry in advance.

[Cryostorm]

Shut up girlie, it ain't often we get to see the big "A" work her magic and I intend to enjoy the show.

You know, in some circles it's considered a badge of honor to recieve a tounge-lashing from the great Ashnod. Enjoy it Sandy.

[Apep]

I think this is damn hilarious.

Endeavor, I was just stating an observation, you know I think you're a flake and I don't think you take any offense to it. I wasn't trying to spawn a debate.

Oh well, Sandy has had it coming to her for a long time. You can't come here and speak like such an imbecile and expect not to hear shit for it.

[Sandy Davis]

Ashnod, look at the world around you.Look at how mant groups that say if you are not one of us your not worth the air you breathe.

And about change.It is all too possable to have a policlub ot group to think it is wrong for others to do something wile prefectly fine for themsleves to do it.Should I list the religions that have rules like this?Should I list the Policlubs? because by the time I am done I will have listed far more than I have not. So something like this is well within the bounds of a fanitic like your daughter. It is well within the bounds of logic to say you daughter may think that the only change you should make is to her policlub and then you can do what you want.After all they are the "chosen ones".

[Renard]

I for one would like an example, if not the whole list of those religions and 'policlubs'.It would hopefully make it easier to understand what you are talking about.

[Sandy Davis]

How about Jews, Muslims, Christians? Maybe you will like some tribel feel, In that case you could look to the inca, mashica, and the Aztec? Maybe your in the mood for something more moderns.You could look at Scientology, masonry, capitalists, democrats, republicans.

Would you want me to go on?

[Renard]

I know nothing about native American tribes, or current American politics, but the Christians and Muslims I know don't have two sets of rules.

Are you sure you're not confusing religion with individuals hiding behind or abusing the name of a religion?

Scientology is a scam, trust me on this, I've run a few scams myself. While it seems to have different sets of rules for different people, I see no religious or political drive behind it, only economical gain. The people joining scientology to find spiritual enlightenment are used by the men and women behind it.

[Sandy Davis]

Low and behold there is but one God.This God loves everyhting but if you do nto prey to this one God, you shall go to hell.

Then the idea that it s the people not the idea cna only go so far.after all rock stars, rappers,and poets have been held acount able for what people do in the name of that person's art.

To gain money, is to gain power. To gain power is a political action.

[Jager]

Sandy, Ashnod, is it okay for others to post in your topic?

[Sandy Davis]

Other already have.Jager you are free to put your words in any forum I open.

And would you check in on the packaage Ieft in the care of Chaz?

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sandy Davis:
Ashnod, look at the world around you.Look at how mant groups that say if you are not one of us your not worth the air you breathe.

And every single one of those groups, with the exception of those started with a singular group and never permit new members, consistently try and recruit or convert people to their cause. Ergo, they must believe individuals outside their organization are allowed to change their minds or they wouldn't bother making those attempts.

Coincidently, most of the Teragen don't consider themselves "Chosen Ones." Chosen One implies selection by deity or fate for the favor of that deity or fated to live out an important destiny. Most of the Teragen would tell you that they are creating their own destiny.

Aside from a very few members of the Cult of Mal, the Teragen aren't religious fanatics.

[Renard]

Low and behold there is but one God.This God loves everyhting but if you do nto prey to this one God, you shall go to hell.

This argument would have more more sense if you had said 'If I pray to God I go to heaven, if you pray to God you got to hell'. This all seems to me that they apply the same rule to all people.

Then the idea that it s the people not the idea cna only go so far.after all rock stars, rappers,and poets have been held acount able for what people do in the name of that person's art.

I have no idea what you are aiming at here.

To gain money, is to gain power. To gain power is a political action

I'm sorry, I thought you meant Scientology as an example of a religion, now I think you meant it as a 'policlub'.

Anyway, I don't agree with you. To gain money is not a political action. By your reasoning, is it a political action to lose money? Or to not earn money?

[Ashnod]

Just so this is mentioned...

Endeavor,

I bear you no ill will in this thread. I hope you aren't taking my words as such. Had Sandy used another means to stand up for you, I would've likely remained silent.

[Jager]

If you want me to, Sandy, but it might be difficult. The PostMan can be very difficult at times.

People often confuse money with politics. An unemployed guerilla who plants a carbomb is committing a politcal act. A millionaire who donates to mutltiple political parties at the same time is committing an economic act, not a political one.

Ashnod, I think more than a few 'fanatics' in the teragen consider themselves chosen by destiny.

How many Terats advocate the slaughter of baselines?

Their enslavement?

Ashnod, you may be nova-centric with you philosophy, but others are not.

[Sakurako Hino]

Ashnod and Apep:

Ashnod, I don't take any insult whatsoever. I just don't like it when an arguement is going on and I'm it's subject. Makes me feel like I have to interject when you're just raising a point. As I've said, you go right on ahead. I won't stop you. This isn't my soapbox here. It's yours, Apep's and Sandys.

Apep, I am a flake, I'll admit it. Looking at my past history, this tends to show. I'm trying to learn to focus on one thing. It's sort of hard when your mind says; "Hey neeters! Let's try that!" That's the curse of mine. A mind like mine gets bored easily.

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:

Ashnod, I think more than a few 'fanatics' in the teragen consider themselves chosen by destiny.

Well, you're wrong.

[Cody]

When you walk the same road with someone you can share the sights. You might not agree on what it means but it's the same view. If you ain't on that road walking with them you can't see what they see no matter how hard you try. The way I figure it's all about choices. Don't mean no insult to anyone. Someone makes a choice, you make another, then it all changes. You don't share the view. A gifted man might be able to guess what another sees but that ain't the same as seeing it himself.

Mudererer or priest. Fanatic or saint. A man can know what he believes but can he know the truth and still be able to speak with the rest of us?

[Amadeo]

Just as a personal view but I dont see the need to say the teragen is all one way or another, whch is what Ashnod seems to be saying. I sure there are some members out there who do live up to the stereotypes and do want to kill anything that aint a nova. And I say this not because its the teragen but because every society has a few pyschos who make the rest look bad.

Even the greatest leaders with the most magnificent visions have attracted lunatics.

[Stigmata]

Yeah no kidding. Just the Terats on this forum alone should be proof of that.

[Bastian]

Ashnod:

I don't recall you being capable for speaking for all of us. Despite your high status, I do not agree with you. It isn't that you are wrong, nor am I wrong. We are both Terats, but our visions are different.

Certainly, in my mind and in my experiences, some of us could be labelled as fanatics. Seeking to belong instead of seeking to understand is a common pitfall among our brothers and sisters. Some even come to us for their own gain and for no higher purpose.

I joined the teragen out of circumstance and not desire. I was hunted and afraid. The Teragen offered sanctuary, so I 'joined'. Only later did I come to understand what I was and what I might be. I didn't understand any of Mal's wisdom, back then. Even now, I only understand a fraction of it. I know enough to see that there is no one "truth" to any terat and no One Path for the One Race.

Let outsiders label us as they will. What does it really matter?

[Ashnod]

Bastian,

I didn't say there weren't fanatics amongst us. I said that there were a few fanatics amonst us. Jager said that there were "more than a few."

Our movement is very small. Saying more than a few with the tiny amount of Novas in the Teragen hints of a majority, or at the very least, a sizeable number.

Jager is wrong.

And if you believe this, you are wrong.

[Bastian]

Perhaps I am confused by what others refer to when they use the label "fanatic".

I refer to those who follow, but do not understand.

I do not refer to those who disagree with me. It is not necessary that they do so. I refer to those who follow some other individual rather than their souls.

You should get out among the rest of us more, Big Sister. Those that seek out your wisdom are in the minority and that is wrong. I feel that too many wear the mantle of Terat out of anger, fear, and hatred.

[Sandy Davis]

As the saying goes, even a stopped watch is right twice a day. Being a fanatuc, does not rob you of you brain.

And Ashnod, you are a fanatic. There is no way around it. True a well spoken one, but can you list the times fanatics have come into power that were also well spoken?

And lastly I would like you to show me a fallower of teras who comes here and is not a fanatic.

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sandy Davis:
And Ashnod, you are a fanatic. There is no way around it. True a well spoken one, but can you list the times fanatics have come into power that were also well spoken?

And lastly I would like you to show me a fallower of teras who comes here and is not a fanatic.

Intriguing. I'm being dubbed a fanatic by someone who hasn't met me and whose been unsuccessful in debating me in text-based medium. Ergo, you're shifting the focus back to me in an attempt to make me prove that I'm not a fanatic.

Is this your last method of defense? You're resorting to name-calling?

Somehow, I don't feel in the slightest bit insulted or threatened.

Bastian,

"You should get out among the rest of us more, Big Sister."

Interesting as well. You work under the assumption that I don't get out among the "rest of us." Another intriguing accusation that you have no way to prove. After all, you honestly don't know how many people I communicate with on a regular basis, and meet with on a regular basis, or introduce myself to, do you?

[Hugin]

Ashnod has been called a fanatic.

Fascinating.

This is now officially the silliest thread I've ever read. Sandy, if you're going to call someone a fanatic, try at least to aim that term at someone who fulfills at least some of the requirements for being a fanatic. Ashnod is calm, willing to discuss things, doesn't resort to hysterical behavior and actually cares very little whether or not she convinces anyone of anything. She simply would prefer that Teras and the Teragen not be misrepresented. From what I've garnered, she could not care less whether or not you believed what you believe. She simply would prefer if you didn't slander those things and those people she holds dear.

[Bastian]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:

Interesting as well. You work under the assumption that I don't get out among the "rest of us."

Assumption, no. I speak from my personal experinences.

Quote:

Another intriguing accusation that you have no way to prove.

I have made ohter accusations against you? Okay?

Quote:

After all, you honestly don't know how many people I communicate with on a regular basis, and meet with on a regular basis, or introduce myself to, do you?

Correct, Big Sister. You are in no way beholden to give me any such information. I can not prove you talked to anyone.

I can also say that your views are not mine.
Nor are they the professed views of the Apostle, Shrapnel, the Confederate, Leviathan, Geryon, Narcosis, or Count Orzaiz.
Perhaps there is a sect out there that does support your view. Perhaps they have no desire to make themselves known to me. Perhaps all of the people you talk to "outside of a few members of the Cult of Mal" are not fanatics. They could all be true believers in Teras. I am not you, nor do I know your mind.
You profess that they are few fanatics in the Teragen.
I profess that there are a good number of fanatics among us.

Of course, you have no way of knowing how many people I communicate with on a regular basis, and meet with on a regular basis, or introduce myself to, do you?

[Jager]

Oh, come on James. The Silliest?

Okay, its got some things working in its favor, but the silliest? I will have to think on this one.

[Jordan]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sandy Davis:
And lastly I would like you to show me a fallower of teras who comes here and is not a fanatic.

I am, although not many people aside from maybe James would be aware of that fact.

[Hugin]

One reason I believe Ashnod may disagree with the number of fanatics in the Teragen is that it is my belief that in her own way, Ashnod is as much an elitist as I am.

She has a very firm handle on what being a Terat is. There are many who claim to be Terat that do not comprehend the philosophy. Now, as Teras is primarily a philosophical movement, it would be difficult for someone to legitimately claim membership who did not understand the philosophical base. There are those among us who are much more inclusionary. They believe that simply stating "I ain't no human." fulfills the necessary understanding of Teras and happily embrace those Novas as members of our august brotherhood. It is my belief that Ashnod is not quite so accomadating. It is my belief that she would expect some higher degree of understanding of Teras before acknowledging a Nova as being a Terat. Bastian on the other hand, being hip deep in fanatics apparently, is less discerning as to whom he embraces.

Again, I'm simply expression my beliefs here. These beliefs are based on my impressions of Ashnod and Bastian's statements. I've met neither, as my presence at Terat functions tends to be disruptive. Perhaps calling The Confederate a 'howling buffoon' to his face was not the wisest course of action. But that is neither here nor there. I am, as usual, merely offering an unsolicited and very likely unwelcome opinion.

[Bastian]

Your views are always welcome to me, Brother James.

So it was you who did that to the Confederate. Good to know. I wasn't there and I could never get any of the participants to give me a clear understanding of what happened.

Hip deep in fanatics? Maybe. I am far less judgemental about who is or isn't a terat. I am not pleased with how some come to support us, but it is the reality of the situation. The pandemonium that has been created is what is real to me, anyway. It is the imperfect working its way toward perfection.

Of course, I am a spiritualist and you are a rationalist. You are an Elitist and I am egalitarian. You came by way of Utopian betrayal and I arrived as a hunted fugative.

We are very different. We are Terats.

[Cody]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sandy Davis:
And lastly I would like you to show me a follower of teras who comes here and is not a fanatic.

Yo!

[Bastian]

Perhaps, Brother, she feels that one must be a fanatic to follow Teras? I can no longer tell.

Sandy, your child is well, but she still very new to the world.

Jager, we are not that difficult to reach, if you know who to ask.

[Jager]

Quote:

Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:

There are many who claim to be Terat that do not comprehend the philosophy. Now, as Teras is primarily a philosophical movement, it would be difficult for someone to legitimately claim membership who did not understand the philosophical base.

Good one Prodigy. I wonder how Shrapnel feels about that.

Quote:

Perhaps calling The Confederate a 'howling buffoon' to his face was not the wisest course of action.

Man, all the things I miss by not being a joiner. I would have given a million rubles to see the exact expression on Barry's face when that happened.

[Cody]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
Good one Prodigy. I wonder how Shrapnel feels about that.

Maybe she feels coming for the wrong reasons still puts you where you need to be to learn the right reasons.

[Jager]

(Takes hat off to Cody)

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Bastian:
Assumption, no. I speak from my personal experinences.

I see. And your experiences indicate that I am an isolationist and therefore incapable of recognizing my own level of communication.

I have made ohter accusations against you? Okay?

Not you, Bastian. I was including it with the accusation of fanatic made by Sandy.

Correct, Big Sister. You are in no way beholden to give me any such information. I can not prove you talked to anyone.

Correction. You can't prove that I haven't talked to anyone.

You profess that they are few fanatics in the Teragen. I profess that there are a good number of fanatics among us.

Intriguing. Out of say, the 50-60 people considered to be Terats, how many of them are you prepared to label as fanatics? Are you prepared to name them publicly?

Of course, you have no way of knowing how many people I communicate with on a regular basis, and meet with on a regular basis, or introduce myself to, do you?

No, but I wasn't the one telling another Terat to get out amongst the other members, hinting that she didn't communicate with the rest of the group. You're the one pointing an accusatory finger, not I. I wasn't calling into question your socialization with the other Terats. I'm interested that you feel it necessary to throw this back at me when I hadn't implied anything about your relations.

For what it is worth, Bastian, I do agree with one thing you've said: I feel that too many wear the mantle of Terat out of anger, fear, and hatred. I cannot agree more. But, the majority of the people that I would place into that category are not those I would consider true Terats.

Prodigy, I think, makes the better point. I hold a different definition of what makes someone a Terat. Saying that you are a Terat doesn't make you one. Attending parties with the Pandeimonion doesn't make you a Terat either.

Claiming to be something doesn't make you the thing claimed. Hence, as to the original argument, Sandy claiming to be other than Nova doesn't make her other than Nova. Neither does saying you're a Terat, blowing up a building and publicly stating it was a Terat bombing, make the bomber a Terat or the explosion an act of Terat aggression.