Jager Posted May 9, 2003 Share Posted May 9, 2003 Okay. I have moved this off V's thread.I would argue that the Null Manifesto starts off with the premise that novas are fundementally different from baselines. It's message is that baseline structures do not apply, because baselines can not understand what novas are or what they go through.I would also back up Meridian's argument that novas were once human in all ways. Very few erupties forget who they were before. Some of them chose to ignore the morality and codes of conduct that they used to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted May 10, 2003 Share Posted May 10, 2003 Novas and Humanity, The Null Manifesto; those are things I haven't had time to properly explore recently. That may sound a bit arrogant, but other studies just seemed so much more important.However, I must say that some of the threads on this board has made me think about it once again.I for one consider myself neither a terat nor an utopian, I made the choice not to isolate myself to an idealistic standpoint years ago. However, I can't deny that novas seem to be something else than human, not more, not less, but different.As such you might say that I'm inclined to agree with the null manifesto, however, it's an undeniable fact that novas where once human.The point is that more often than not ideals tend to cloud a persons judgement, which in turn doesn't give you many practical solutions to the complications that may appear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 I've been thinking of this a lot lately. What does the Null Manifesto mean to me?It means that it's okay not to be like everyone else. It means that I can live like they live or I can find a different way but it's something I got to figure out on my own and deliberately choose. Baselines can go through their lives letting their neighbors tell them where to live, what to do and how to do it but I'm one in ten million and different. It tells me that this ain't the comic books. See, in the comics the world don't change all that much. Heroes and villains duke it out over New York but except for some building getting smashed nothing really happens. The wonder brain invents cheap teleportation but doesn't bother to share it with anyone else. Superguy never thinks to call Wonderbrain for help on a problem even though he should 'cause he ain't that smart on his own. In the real world there's big messy things that happen when novas start making changes.Being beseline means the world is too big for you to do much about unless you're hellaciously lucky and work your ass off to boot. The Null Manifesto tells me those rules don't hold me any more. That I ain't baseline and the world is too easy to change. That it ain't a question of "if" I can change the world but of "how". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody Posted May 17, 2003 Share Posted May 17, 2003 You would think that there would be a bazillion answers to this instead of the piddlely three that showed up. And one of those was even the one that asked the questions to start with. With all the feeling for or against Terats there got to some kind of opinions out there.Isn't there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager Posted May 18, 2003 Author Share Posted May 18, 2003 Cody, if at the end of the day, I can get one person to think about things, I call it a victory. It isn't the volume as much as the value that I look for.Thanks for responding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugin Posted May 18, 2003 Share Posted May 18, 2003 Quote:Originally posted by Jager:I would also back up Meridian's argument that novas were once human in all ways. Very few erupties forget who they were before. Some of them chose to ignore the morality and codes of conduct that they used to follow.Sorry, I've been a tad busy.Yes, an absolutely true point. Very valid.Adults also used to be children. Things change, we grow. Finders is no longer keepers. No tag-backs is no longer valid. And it turns out cooties aren't really so bad. All we need to know was not learned in Kindergarten.It's time to grow up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Davis Posted May 18, 2003 Share Posted May 18, 2003 James I could not have said it more clearly if I tried. But you must under stand that just because you are no longer just a child, that does not make you an adult.To me the Null Manifesto is meaniningless, for I am no longer a nova.But we all should ask outsleves this.What make us what we are?Is it in a name or title?If so is it the one we give our selves or the one others give us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violette 'V' D'Aronique Posted May 18, 2003 Share Posted May 18, 2003 Yes, I was baseline once. Well, I mean I guess I always had some genetic disposition towards becoming a Nova, but I never knew it. I can't look at my old self and think that I wasn't like any other ordinary person.The Null Manifesto to me, and I can't believe I'm actually going to say this, is the counter-argument to the Zurich Accord. It tells me that Novas are different enough that we can't be categorized like ordinary people. That's what I think the meaning of it is, anyway. I'm not certain to what degree I believe any of the Null Manifesto is true, but I do believe it was kind of necessary that something like it was made public. I think something had to be thrown out there to make people realize that many Novas think this way, even if it might be wrong to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violette 'V' D'Aronique Posted May 18, 2003 Share Posted May 18, 2003 Quote:Originally posted by Sandy Davis:To me the Null Manifesto is meaniningless, for I am no longer a nova.What the fuck ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody Posted May 18, 2003 Share Posted May 18, 2003 Quote:Originally posted by Violette 'V' D'Aronique:What the fuck ever.What the fuck ever? Wow. That's two 'Topians I like now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker Posted May 19, 2003 Share Posted May 19, 2003 Well to me the Null Manifesto has always read like Aleister Crowley with a bit of Nietzsche chucked in for good measure.,,Quote: ...novas, who are required by destiny to obtain their full potential ... Isn't everyone? Besides, anytime someone starts going on about destiny I start looking around nervously for the exit, I just know I'm going to be told my place in the scheme of things...,,Quote: ... then it is the duty Ha, told you so.,,Quote: of every Homo sapiens novus to govern himself or herself as they see fit. ...To my mind this is pretty common amongst old fashioned homo sapiens sapiens, it's called looking out for number one. ,,Quote: Just as it is proposterous to expect humans to abide by the strictures of chimpanzee society, He's even having a go at the apes now.,,Quote: any attempt to force a nova to abide by the laws of human society must be seen as an attack on the rights of the individual nova ...Hang on, isn't it those same laws that give us rights in the first place? And after all putting a murderer in prison is an attack on their freedom with the aim of protecting society. In more general terms why exactly does it demean or diminsh us to abide by those strictures until a nova nation is set up? My bad, I forgot about that destiny bit earlier on, I'll just get my coat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody Posted May 19, 2003 Share Posted May 19, 2003 Quote:Originally posted by Walker:Hang on, isn't it those same laws that give us rights in the first place?I ain't so sure about that. I guess it depends on whether you believe your in the group or apart from it.And... It's a nice thought but it don't seem to mean a whole lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted May 19, 2003 Share Posted May 19, 2003 Quote:Originally posted by Walker:Hang on, isn't it those same laws that give us rights in the first place? And after all putting a murderer in prison is an attack on their freedom with the aim of protecting society. In more general terms why exactly does it demean or diminsh us to abide by those strictures until a nova nation is set up? My bad, I forgot about that destiny bit earlier on, I'll just get my coat.To be frank, I'm not sure I think a "Nova Nation is such a great idea. I'm not going to tire you with a morality speech, but a nation of superpowered individuals just doesn't seem like a good idea.As a scientist I work within a given set of rules, as a person I don't, however, I sould not live without both and I fear that in a nation of novas the rules would have to give way for the chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Preston Posted May 20, 2003 Share Posted May 20, 2003 Okay.Sandy Davis isn't a nova, James Meehan's all grown up, and Walker has chosen the better part of valor.On to the matter at hand:To me, the Null Manifesto has always felt like a declaration of war.Divis Mal said that he and his weren't going to play by our rules anymore, but they weren't going to leave us alone, either. We, the less powerful, had to lump it because they had the power, and we didn't. Mind you, I was a baseline and a cop when I first heard this.I can't say my opinion has changed all that much in my time as a nova. If anything, my exerience as a nova has hardened my stance. I see, first hand, that callousness and brutality novas are capable of. I do not believe we are ready, as a seperate group of people, to govern ourselves. Yes, some of you do just fine on your own, and I know it.You see, there are these core beliefs that hold me back from saying everything is hunky-dory with Mal's little plan.1) Thou shall not kill.Yes, society allows killing in limited circumstances. Novas aren't a society yet, or, they are societies of one. Your choice. If a nova steps into my society, baseline society, and kills, it is not okay. It is not destiny. It is murder.2) Thou shall not steal.As above. I like to add in this little addendum. Thou shall not deny someone thier freedom of action or thought as long as said thing does not deny it to another. Nor, should anyone have to live in fear.Until ole Mal and his followers come around to those two points, I can't see myself being able to understand anything else they want or say.Yeah, I know. They see a whole new way of being and doing. Me, I see the same old tired excuses for one's own dark desires.Mr. Black. I agree. A Nova Nation at this time would be a cataclysm waiting to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayson Windsor Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Null Manifesto?A declaration that Divis and company are too lazy to help the world into a better tomorrow. What should be done is the best nova minds out there should get together and erupt the whole planet's population. No more baseline/nova problem. Just new problems and solutions from a new world with limitless potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centipede Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 The Null Manifesto is an opium for the node-people.Novas too insecure in their new identities flock to the words of someone they never met. How many of those that follow the Manifesto really understand it?How many of those work for the nova society that is the core of the Manifesto? How many novas understand it and reject it?The Manifest does not tell me anything I agree with that I hadn't figured out myself. The Manifest is an excuse for those that need them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Quote:Originally posted by Centipede:The Null Manifesto is an opium for the node-people.Wow.That's harsh. It's your right to feel that way though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Davis Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Quote:Originally posted by Violette 'V' D'Aronique: Quote:Originally posted by Sandy Davis:To me the Null Manifesto is meaniningless, for I am no longer a nova.What the fuck ever.Please tell me what gives you the power to know me more than I know myself?Now what makes someone human?What makes someone a Nova?Are you human because wha tyou look like?Are you human because your DNA? Are you human based on how you think?Are you human becasew aht you can or can't do?Are those the way you judge waht it means to be a Nova?Beacuase I will tell you that I share as much with novas as they share with baselines.Would call me a base line?If the anwser is no, then why would you call me a nova?Further more, are you what others think you are?Iw ould enjoy visting you for some tea. I will be home in a few days..right now I am somewhat busy.If you have a tellascope you could see what I am doing..But I am not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violette 'V' D'Aronique Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Quote:Originally posted by Sandy Davis:Please tell me what gives you the power to know me more than I know myself?Beacuase I will tell you that I share as much with novas as they share with baselines.What. The. Fuck. Ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Davis Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Is ther anything makes you think you should act in such a manor?Have I done somethting that would offend you?Or would you just wish to live in your own well defined world?If you wish not to talk in a civil manor, you could at least not talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Doesn't the "N" in N!Prime stand for nova?Just wondering... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violette 'V' D'Aronique Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Sandy,I once knew someone who got ordained online. I mean this. Signed up on some church's 'net site and was proclaimed a Reverend on the spot. Even got a nice certificate to be framed. Used to try and convince my old circle of friends that he really was a Reverend, complete with clerical powers and the backing of an official church to prove it.One of our other friends said, "So, if I go online and get a certificate that says that I'm a gorilla, does that really make me a gorilla?"You want to spout off about being something other than a Nova, fine. There isn't a person here that's really going to believe you. If they do, they are as crazy you so are.You want to tell me you're not a Nova? Well, how the fuck is that possible when by definition Novas can do anything. Achieve anything. You're no more beyond Nova than I am. You might have advanced a bit farther than me, but you're still a Nova. And that's if your insane little mind isn't telling you things that aren't true to begin with with.So, Sandy. If you want to get on an OpNet site and proclaim yourself "no longer a Nova," and the ONLY backing you seem to have is "I know myself better than you do," then I have only one thing to say to you.What. The. Fuck. Ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Hey Sandy,Does this have anything to do with your trip to find god? I'm curious did you find such a thing? If so please ask it to drop by the Amproom at it's earliest conveinience. I have several bones to pick with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager Posted May 22, 2003 Author Share Posted May 22, 2003 Okay, Sandy. What do you consider yourself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Davis Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Jager,I am a lot of things.I am a mother,a friend,a gentle hand.I Am alos a killer, a torementor,and and a bloodied sword. But if ou want to know aht I call meself, you will have to wait untill I get home.Walker, look around you, ever thing you see is God. or at least part of agod. I did find God,and I did enjoy my time wiht God. But God was nothing like you,me, or anything in the good Book.And I am using the term God, because it is the best term I can use that will get my point across. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugin Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Ok, I look around. Oooh, a mirror!I see myself. I am God.Oh wait, but God is nothing like me.Hmmmmm.My goodness. What a conundrum.That or you are a bleeding looney.Should I start a poll? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronin Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 I don't think I agree with any of you..ronin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Don't seem surprising that you don't. What with everybody seeing it a little different and none of us agreeing with each other it don't seem surprising at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Davis Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 james, you look at parts of my message and not the whole. When you do this you miss the point.But I think I understand what you are trying to say.I have to ask you this. What do you think "God" is? or what do you think could be called "God"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastian Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 The Null Manifesto was the road sign. The path was always there for us to follow. What the Divine Mal did was open the eyes of those of us who were afraid to see the truth. He also showed us that each path is our own, though we all share in the journey.The Manifesto did not tell us to hate the baselines or destroy their world. That kind of choice is made in the heart and soul of each individual of the One Race. Those of us who seek to find understanding in Teras, do so as solo voyagers. Each of us tries to respects and understand the choices and journies of our fellow Terats. It can be difficult at time, but it is the nature of our existance. That is why we do not condemn our fellows, though we may not understand them. We leave that to those who do not seek understanding and would live with your soul blinded to your own glory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meridian Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Quote:Novas, my brothers and sisters of the One Race, I am Divis Mal. I come before you bearing a message of the future, a manifesto to nullify the baseline propaganda that has surrounded you and to lift the veil of confusion from your eyes. I bear the truth and a warning. The members of Homo sapiens novus are a separate race from Homo sapiens. We are the One Race. Regulations and laws enacted for the good of Homo sapiens are too easily subverted and misinterpreted to abuse the rights of novas. Who are required by destiny to attain their full potential ... a goal impossible while abiding by the strictures and limitations set by beings who are not our peers and who cannot accurately judge what is "ethical" or "moral" for anything other than their own kind. As such, the laws and governing bodies established for the purpose of governing Homo sapiens must be considered inapplicable to Homo sapiens novus. Until a common governing body, composed entirely of novas qualified to hold authority, is recognized by the majority of the nova population, then it is the duty of novas to govern themselves as they see fit. Just as it is preposterous to ask humans to abide by the laws of apes, any attempt to force a nova to abide by the laws of human society must be seen as an attack on the rights and freedom of that nova, and upon us all. We are each our own nation; to be nova is to transcend the baselines from which we evolved. We want only to live in accord with the promptings of our true selves. We exist beyond human comprehension, and while we have yet to define our own laws, we must have the freedom necessary to chart our own course. Only those novas too lazy or too comfortable to think for themselves, to judge and regulate their own behavior accordingly, obey baseline laws. True members of the One Race sense their own laws within them; things are forbidden to them that a common baseline will do any day of the year, and other things are allowed to them that are generally despised. Each nova must stand their own. I beseech all members of the One Race to follow the path that will take them to a better understanding of who and what they are. This will require courage, but the chick that fears the outside world dies in the egg. To be born, the One Race must destroy its egg and, with time, fly free. For this we are slandered, but we cannot claim surprise. Those few powerful individuals with courage and character have always seemed sinister to the rest. Anything that threatens the calm in which baselines live, they call "revolutionary". They have become nervous because they realize that, with the coming of the One Race, the rules by which they have lived are no longer valid. The labels they assign us are of no concern. We cannot and will not apologize for a difference this fundamental. We must explore what it is to be novas, not for the betterment of the human race, but for the betterment of the nova race. Perhaps there are some novas who prefer to stay with the baseline herd for the warmth and comfort it provides. I say obtain your warmth from equals. Humans do not require the companionship of monkeys, and likewise novas do not require the companionship of baselines. We are destined to make a strange and terrible journey, and this we cannot do alone. While each nova must walk their own path, we must gather and share our knowledge and our companionship. We are at the gates of a glorious new age, and we must take the first steps toward our destiny; to do this we need to be one. Realize this it is only novas who can lead this journey. Homo sapiens had their chance. it is now the Nova Age, the age of the One Race. Our age. Whosoever would be a creator, must first destroy, and in this new age of the One Race, a terrible angel is loosed, preparing the grandest creation.Well Mal is eloquent but what is the Null Manifesto?To me the null manifesto is call to abandon 'baseline' society to fulfill some sort of genetic ‘destiny.’ Honestly it seems rather shortsighted in a number of respects.Mal seems to have this idea that biology is destiny and therefore must trump society. I don’t agree.However I also don’t feel that society must overrule biology.To me Mal’s little tirade is an extreme viewpoint and is therefore dangerous. Like many extremist ideas it contains a core of truth but happily ignores other truths that don’t support it’s creators thesis quite as well.A half truth is far more dangerous than a lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doutor da Reducao Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 Quote:Originally posted by Meridian:To me Mal’s little tirade is an extreme viewpoint and is therefore dangerous.Forgive me but I feel I must ask. Why do you consider the speech to have been a tirade? While even his smallest gesture seemed designed to support a sort of picturesque grandeur, he did seem quite calm and even relaxed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meridian Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 I was quite deliberate in my choice of words. While his demeanor might have been calm and his tone measured his words were violent in a way that still trouble me to this day. Not because I have inner doubts but rather because I realize what this call to action has done and will do to both novas and humans. The violence was in his message and in all the actions that have followed from it.Mal’s Manifesto was a tirade and the world is a sadder place for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostwriter Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 Sorry, thought I'd add my own two cents:As an Aspergers' person, I have always been outside 'normal' society. I was treated like a freak before I ever developed my nova abilities, all because I was too aware to be called true autistic but too detached to be called normal. Yet I was also trapped in an abusive relationship because I didn't think I deserved better.My eruption and the time after brought me nothing but pain. My husband kneecapped me, I was alienated from my work mates and I realised that I was so far ahead of everyone else that I might as well have gone to the North Pole.Afterwards, I got help from some very wonderful people, both baseline and nova, to pull myself together. (Oh, if you ever want a good divorce lawyer in Australia, go talk to Bronwen Wilson at Wilson, Hark and Burrows in Brisbane.) I don't revel in fame or fortune, so there goes joining DeVries or some other Elite agency. I can't lead my way out of a paper bag, so there goes making up some cult to worship me. All I do is collect knowledge and offer advice to those who will listen, and a few choice words for those who don't. But I decided to stick with Team Tomorrow for one simple reason: the people who are on the outside of the box can often see the problems inside.Why absent myself away from the world or try and beat it into submission? That is the mark of a passive or aggressive Aspergers' person. I come into the odd but social group - I try to live with society, though I'm not too sociable myself. I must admit, reading a baker's dozen of etiquette books certainly helped me.Knowledge is power. I can't fly or beat the crap out of folk, but I can sure as hell try and give them the power to sort themselves out.Since I don't make judgment calls, I'll concede that Jager had a point when he said this: ,,Quote:....if at the end of the day, I can get one person to think about things, I call it a victory.See, even Terats can have their own wisdom. There are as many paths and truths in the universe as lips to speak them, hearts to embrace them, and feet to walk them.I'll get off the soapbox now.Codex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigiGeist Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 Well said, Codex, but the Null Manifesto right now to me is all sound and fury, meaning nothing.Of course most high and lofty calls to arms usually pass under my radar often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager Posted September 19, 2003 Author Share Posted September 19, 2003 Thanks for the props, Codex, but I am not a terat, just a rarely understood indie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matryoshka Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 I have thought about this for soem time. And I have come up wiht this.It is a good dream, but flawed in pratice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David 'Dr. Troll' Smith Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 The Null Manifesto is/was Mal trolling for followers. It was created, not only with the idea of informing us, but also with the idea of manipulating us.To call for the overthrow of society without a clue of what to replace it with is madness. There are other societies that could easy replace ours. The most likely is the rule of confusion (Anarchy) or the rule of strong over the weak. Yes, I will grant that current society limits novas. For example, it would strongly frown on my having a temper tantrum and leveling Boston. However, I do not view society's likely replacements as being more likely to further the advancement of novas. We are "Other". To define ourselves in terms of what we are not is to not define ourselves.Look back at the last big jump in evolution (Ape => Man). A man back then who tried to define himself as "not an ape" has proved nothing. If he killed lots of apes, he would still prove nothing since he is still defining himself in terms of Ape, not Man. To ask him to "not think like an ape" is hopeless. Modern man proved his otherness via science, art, language, litterature, social structure, and ideas (like democracy). These were not created instantly, and to expect Nova kind to get our act together instantly is unrealistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sakurako Hino Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 Quote:Originally posted by Jager: Thanks for the props, Codex, but I am not a terat, just a rarely understood indie. Yep, born and raised in the island of misfit nodes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager Posted September 21, 2003 Author Share Posted September 21, 2003 Doc, a little problem with your example.This is evolution on the head of a needle.We have little idea if novas are even a 'successful' mutation.According to Ashnod, there is a definitive way to tell who can and can not erupt. That would imply, with other evidence, that a sizeable portion of the population will not mutate, or evolve, and is somewhat aware of it.The problem isn't genetic, it is social. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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