opnet [OpNet] The reasons I can't stand the teragen as a whole

[Agnelli Celeste]

Quote:

A Nova does not start off human. First Generation Novas begin life in an "unerupted" state similar to that of a baseline human. The potential to one day control quantum-energy is a fairly large dividing line between the two. It is quite possible that our descendents will be born erupted, and the gulf will be even wider.

From the lips of Ashnod. When I was a child of nine,I was chosen to be given the gift of hearing.As I was deaf.But the doctor had to away to take of a his mother. On November 10nth 2005,he was killed by a nova who is as far as I know still a member of the teragen.SHrap metal.

SO one of your sister took hearing away from me.ANd as Ashnod said I was apart of the one race before i new I was.THat mean I was basically maimed by someone who wanted me to join them, for no reason.

Jane Smith, Rebecca Brink, Lisa Bush, Kura Burns,Seraph Lopez. All novas were raped by a former member of Teragen.He was on the losse for over a year, being aided by other members of the Teragen. He was finally found with his head cut off,and his node removed.

early this year, one Mathew,and Joan Redings, both confirmed novas for a week, went missing when talking to a tergen member. their bone were found in a dumpester two weeeksago, strains of their DNA was found in a "keg".They were killed to be turned into drinks.

I was part of a team that busted a ring of teragen who were kid napping people from all around South America.That is when the remains of those two young novas were found.ALong with those novas our best guess nearly 120 baseline humans were victims as well.They were turned into drinks.

In the time of the mission, I saw them do it to one preson.It was sickening.

So, we have group of novas who claim they are about being the one race.What I can tell they say you can do anything you want, but you must fallow the teras,and you can't judge what we or any of members do.But we will judge what you do.

Sorry if I can't fallow that hypocritical oath. I mean if you be a club about Nova power, go ahead.If you ant to say that baselines are not your equal go a head. I will not stop anyone from thinking in anyway.

But the teragen have proven that they do not fallow their own goal.As with the Reddings, they were novas for maybe two weeks, ten they were turned into a drug. And there may have been a time I would have joined the teragen, but I just do not kill,and I can't tolerate the way some teragen treat humans.Hell, humans don't do these things to animals.Well some humans do,but killing the sinner's brother doesn't redeam the sin.

I could list countless outher crime, but thses are all I feel needed to be said to make my point clear. I do not hate the teragen because the bage on my belt.I have the bage on my belt because what the teragen do.

So to most teragen, I say this. Take your place in history, and pray we don't repeat it.

[Cody]

It was a Terat that came to me after eruption and and taught me things baseline life hadn't. It was a Terat that showed me how to define responsibility. It was a Terat that taught me the difference between freedom and liberty. It was a Terat that showed me honor was more than just a word in a dictionary. And it was a Terat that saved my ass when the suits showed up at the farm.

Don't preach to me. I'm sick of people like you tearing down others to try and raise yourself out of the slime. See you in hell. I'll be the guy not blaming everyone but myself.

[Ashnod]

Wow, Agnelli, look at all these "names" you just pulled out of nowhere. You know, the way you make it sound, the Teragen kills not only indiscriminately, but without reason or purpose.

Should I list to you all the Novas that Utopia has investigated that haven't been seen since? Those who are held in Bahrain against their will? Those we suspect are dead?

Furthermore, I could MAKE UP detailed and lengthy "evidence" and get someone else on the forum to validate by claiming the same proof, you'd never know it.

This name game absurdity is getting old very fast.

[Agnelli Celeste]

Ashnod,you miss the point, but then you miss the point of som many things. I have seen the sie effects of teragen.I have seen not a single good thing come from the teragen that can in anyway make up for the things that they do.

Name one teragen that has in anyway made the world a better place?Go,on list name.

ANd Ashnod, the trick about wha tyour saying is that teragen do,and I have seen to much of, is smear the other people.

Wile I do nto say that all teragen are evil killers bent on destorying, I do as a whole think that poeple like Shrap metal,your daughter, Epoch, Gryorn,and the lsit goes on.ARe not the types of people who i would wish to be with on even passive terms.

Now, you can say that the teragen are not all evil, again i get that. But what makes the teragen worth wile?What does th teragen do for the world?WHat will the teragen do for me if I fallow their beliefs?

Ashnod, there are Novas held against their will.FOr the safety of themsleves and others. Is this good, no.I in fact say it is jsut about as an evil thing youc an do, baring letting them free.

Remeber that it is your own daughter who doesn't udnerstand why death,and killing is something so wrong.Well, if she doesn't understand how taking awya someone forever is wrong, and as I can tell you agree with ehr on this ideal. Then what is so wrong with take them away and trying to help them.You maya say, but they do nto want help,and I cna say not many peopel who are killed want to die, either.So what makes your crime any less evil than the crime your a protesting?

The diffrance is that Utopia does not track down random novas and lock them up.the teragen at least some of it's members do kill without mercy, or care of ohters.

THe diffrence is that if I lock someone up.I cen let him go.I can't kill someone and then come back two years later to bring him back to life.

And lastly I was stating my views on the teragen as a whole.Not that I that all teragen, I jus that most teragen are poeple who I would not mind seeing going away,and never coming back.

I never said that Utopia was prefect.Witch odd, but that is another story all together.I jsut said that the teragen are poepel who I find well, not wrth the air they use,at least most of them.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

As much as it pains me to disagree with a pair of lovely women;

I have to say that, to a degree, the Teragen as a whole is not responsible for the actions of some of its individual adherents.

Meaning that Ashnod isn't responsible for Sloppy Joe running amuck in that subway car.

But while I have heard terats say, "I wasn't involved", I have not heard them say, "he was wrong and should be arrested and/or treated and/or restrained". The PU equivalent to Joe would be Saxon, who is still locked up somewhere.

[The Paragon]

As a member of Project Utopia, I have listened to these arguments with some interest.

I do not deny that there are some decent people in the teragen, just like there are some misguided asses in the Project. I have met both kinds.

The difference is the goal these people are abetting.

The center of the teragen philosophy as it works in the real world is the one of selfish indulgence.

The core of the Utopian way is world-wide equality, freedom, and enpowerment.

Terats, no matter how pleasant, honorable, or good they wish to be, are bound up in there willingness to let selfishness and cruelty flourish. All in the name of self-responsibility and independence for novas alone.

Utopia, no matter how intrusive or obstructionist it appears, is working toward freedom and independence for all. Instead of selfishness, Utopia requires willing sacrifice of its members. The nature of the "Better Tomorrow" is that this: It is up to the powerful to empower the powerless. By example, by effort, by blood, sweat, and quantum, we can alter the world from its cycle of victimization and violence. We can conquer fear and hatred. To do that, we must give of ourselves.

I don't ask those who do not believe to contribute, merely not to hinder. We will succeed. The more who help out, the quicker the dream will become real.

[Malu Hekili]

Miss Celeste,

As a former member of Team Tomorrow myself, called "Fury" once upon a time, I have to say that I am appauled at the naivete of your statements. Or rather cluelessness of your remarks. You believe everything you are told don't you?

First off, let me state that I am a Terat.

I do good things for the world on a daily basis. I maintain ecosystems and protect all forms of life that do not upset the balance of nature. I tend to stay in my part of the world, however, when I do travel, I treat all with due respect and care.

I can't believe you would criticize the smearing of names when you yourself are part of the PR machine that is Utopia. As long as there is truth, it does not matter what is said about whom.

Not to worry, none of the afformentioned life takers would wish to spend any time with you. It's unfortunate that you are so unwilling to even consider that there might be something you could learn from them. Some that you have mentioned have a unique perspective that much wisdom could be milked from.

I think you've made it clear that you believe killing is evil. It's also evident that you are very hung up on the notions of good and evil. It is not a black and white world we live in.

I understand the need to incarcerate people. But to imprison someone against their will simply for being what they are is unacceptable. They are not being helped, they're being hidden, and worse.

For you to insult the Teragen in such a way paints you as quite the bigot. It would be far more flattering to yourself if you say I have problems with these specific Terats, instead of condeming the whole of us. It would be like myself saying I don't like Christians because some of them try to kill Nova's. I wouldn't even think of condeming them all for the acts of a few Michaelites. It's absurd.

[The Paragon]

I remember you, Fury. A real pity you gave up on the cause. You have done some really good work on your own. You protect and nurture people and the environment. Too bad you don't extend that protection farther and to more people in need.

You call Ms. Agnelli a bigot. Perhaps she is simply one, so young, who has forced herself to look at the seedier side of the world and recoiled at some of the horror she has confronted. Some of your fellow Terats don't hold to your values.

That you chose to blind yourself is understandable. After all, could you really shelter such murderers and monsters? I think you could. After all, you have convinced yourself the Utopia is your enemy now. We are the great evil, in your mind. This allows you to ignore the evil all around you.

Wallow in your exile, Malu Hekili. You are an island, alone and free. Let people call you a goddess and worship you. After all, that removes the responsibility from them. You reduce them to feed your emptiness. Call it tradition if you like. Ethnic revival. Were does that leave your followers? Do you even care? Empower them if you truly care. Let them strive to master their own destinies.

[Agnelli Celeste]

But at the same time do you hold out your hands to Nazis,,and shift threw the masses to find those who are good poeple.

I am not alking about a movement like Christians,I am talking of a movement that in many ways has mroe in common with Nazis than doesn't.

You want unique wisdom. You can learn from people like Stalen,Flizzer, Madison,Ford,Dow,Mcarthur, and many more.These people in some way all did ggreat things,and changed the world in ways that you would never think of untill you were told about it.But these epopel also were not the type of peopel you would wnat o be friends with OR in some case be around.

I never said that the teragen are all evil, but for the most part most teragen are not the kind of people that should have the power they have.

I do not know you, and I am beating that you are in some ways a good preson, but I am not sure.

Lastly isn't one th things the teragen hold above all else is the freedom to be your own person?ANd if you believe in that,and truely do, do you not have to take the good along with the bad?

[Cody]

"Give of ourselves"?

Gotta hand it to the blue and yellow when it comes to putting a new spin on an old tune. "Give of ourselves" sounds so much prettier than "Yes Massah".

[Ashnod]

Originally posted by Agnelli Celeste:

Ashnod,you miss the point,

I've missed no point. I was simply making a comment on the generalization of your statement's "evidence" and ignoring everything else you had to say.

Name one teragen that has in anyway made the world a better place?Go,on list name.

What are your qualifications for making the world a better place? Remember, we aren't in, and have never claimed to be in, that business.

ANd Ashnod, the trick about wha tyour saying is that teragen do,and I have seen to much of, is smear the other people.

Actually, Agnelli, the difference is we tend to own up to the things we actually do. Even the horrific and monstrous acts that are committed by the true members of the movement aren't hidden. We do tend to dismiss or ignore the actions of posers and wannabes. We don't hide our own "crimes" or "atrocities." A terrorist organization has much more to gain by claiming its actions than by not claiming them.

Wile I do nto say that all teragen are evil killers bent on destorying, I do as a whole think that poeple like Shrap metal,

WHILE. NOT. DESTROYING. PEOPLE. And for crying out loud, SHRAPNEL. Not Shrap Metal or Sharp Metal. How on earth did they EVER let you into T2M with your use of grammar and spelling? There are requirements to being part of their little family, after all.

What does th teragen do for the world?WHat will the teragen do for me if I fallow their beliefs?

We've never claimed to be for the betterment of the world. Why are you expecting a known terrorist organization to live up to entirely selfless expectations?

Remeber that it is your own daughter who doesn't udnerstand why death,and killing is something so wrong.Well, if she doesn't understand how taking awya someone forever is wrong, and as I can tell you agree with ehr on this ideal.

Strange, and Apep just covered this earlier with you. I think those posts speak for themselves.

And I don't think you and I have had a conversation on death, Agnelli. I may or may not agree with my daughter. Most of my statements, save the "I would have no problem eliminating the baseline nation if it meant preserving the Nova one," have been fairly unspecific on how I view killing and death. I'm curious where you draw this conclusion. The absence of a public contradiction doesn't necessarily indicate a silent agreement.

So what makes your crime any less evil than the crime your a protesting?

What crime have I committed that you can name? Publicly defending the actions of another Nova is not a crime, though you might find my stance on the matter not to your liking.

The diffrance is that Utopia does not track down random novas and lock them up.the teragen at least some of it's members do kill without mercy, or care of ohters.

I love how you seem to be an expert on our politics and history without being a member yourself. Tell me more about the organization that I am a part of and you are not, please. Educate me on things that I should know and have seemingly been oblivious to for years. Please keep in mind that most people who have something negative to say about Utopia are former employees or people who have worked with them in the past. Very few people who make such insinuations about the Teragen have genuine first-hand experience with us.

[Malu Hekili]

Paragon,

Perhaps you are correct. Maybe I should not judge her as harshly as she would judge me. She is young, and although I'm sure she has had many life shaping experiences, she is still growing. We all are.

My intent is not to preserve the human race. In many cases it is preferable to let nature take it's course. There are times however when I do sense an unatural offset to the environment, and I'll do my part to fix if it calls me. I do extend the help when I feel it is necessary.

I would shelter any who would come to me for aid. I would not turn away any of the race. Utopia is not my enemy. I never said that. I even still have a few friends with the project.

I can see that you are bitter towards me for whatever reason. I would like to clear up the matter on my followers. I let them do as they wish. That is all. They are free to call me a goddess if the wish, just as you are free to call me hollow.

Agnelli,

No, you're not talking about the Christians, but the analogy holds true. It is a large group of people held together by similar beliefs. Some of them are more radical than others. But the core of their beliefs are harmless. It is up to the individual to determine how to interperit the ideas. I think that maybe you need to study your history a bit. There have been very cruel acts of religious persecution headed by the Christian church in the past.

Yes Agnelli, I do accept the good with the bad, in all things. Perhaps you should consider doing it yourself.

[Hugin]

So, the Teragen is a horrid, worthless organization because it does not pour its strength into improving the world? I assume you mean improving the world for humanity. Malu Hekili does a fabulous job of improving the world from a purely ecological standpoint. I've seen the studies, first rate work. Since we've made no effort to produce results for baseline humanity, we have no value. Well, no results for baseline humanity is a bit strong actually. I'm sure you could fine tens of thousands of exhausted teenage boys who would happily tell you that the Narcosis Vid they just 'used' was top of the line inspiration for producing 'results'. But, I think I get what you're getting at little girl.

Well, too bad. Really, you aren't impressing anyone here with these vapid little arguments. I may come off as a towering resevoir of contempt but in fact I do respect many of the individuals I've bantered about with. I may lambast Preston in a fashion most rude, but I extend the effort because I think he deserves my treating him seriously. You? You're embarassing yourself here. You refer to Stalin as a world changing force? Well, yes, he did in fact change the world. He moved a great number of people from the surface of the earth to six feet beneath it. Read what you've written again. You liken the Teragen to the Nazi's in one breath and then offer praise to a 'monster' of equal level the next. This is what makes it so hard to take you seriously. Try again. Come up with a less easily to puncture argument and we'll all give it another go.

[Stigmata]

Looks like Sandy's software isn't up for the task.

[Cody]

You know what they say. Garbage in, garbage out...

[Preston]

Hmmm... thanks Mr. Meehan.

While I am no big fan of the Teragen, I save my real spite for Project Utopia.

Let me see. I have had three 'violent encounters' with novas calling themselves Terats. Whooped up on them real good, as Virgil would say. Sadly, we had to hand them over to Utopia and they became Bahrain bound.

What has the Teragen done about me?

...

...

...

Nothing. Seems that if you want to be a terat and do wild and crazy shit and you get busted for it, you get to pay the price.

I can't say Apep, Ashnod, or Mr. Meehan love me or the work I do, but they are as good as there word.

I don't persecute the Teragen. Its a philisophical movement and they have as much freedom to speak their mind as anyone. Were I come from, speech is free. I don't have to agree with it to want to protect it.

Come and tell me you are a Terat, and I may look at you funny, but that's about it. Someone wants to bust on you for it for speaking those beliefs, I put that scumball away.

"The Paragon" and Ms. Celeste, I don't doubt you have run across dozens of really hideous terats. The Teragen attracts all kinds of wing-nuts, idiots, and the morally-challenged. Just like any religion.

Glad to see that it is Utopia hunting these guys-and/or girls down instead of some legal authority. Yessir. Nothing like a private corportation dispensing justice.

So, what happened to these criminals?

When is the trial going to be?

When is someone not in PU's pocket going to be able to examine the evidence?

Just wondering.

[Cody]

How come as soon as the talking gets past the "Utopia is the best thing to happen to mankind and the Teragen are murderous bastards", all the 'Toppies are too busy to answer the damn questions that get asked?

No stamina. No stamina at all.

Here's another question to go with the ones from Captain Preston that no one bothered to answer yet. Has anyone committed to Bahrain ever gotten out of there?

Or should I just ask a Terat? That seems to be the place to get any answer that doesn't start out with "Utopia is the best thing to happen to mankind and..."

[Preston]

Cody, I don't think anyone has been released, but I can't be sure. I do know that there have been some escapes from Bahrain, but I had to find out about that from unofficial channels. Sluice is the big one that comes to mind.

The way it would work, if Project Utopia bothered to respect the rest of the earth's law enforcement agencies, is this:

The plan to parole said detainee.

They inform the nations inwhich the criminal committed the crimes that he/she is to be released.

They release said detainee and inform said nations and Interpol.

Interpol informs major Domestic Intelligence Agencies and airport hubs.

By the way, if I sound bitter about Project Utopia, it is because I am.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Preston:
Cody, I don't think anyone has been released...The way it would work...They inform the nations inwhich the criminal committed the crimes that he/she is to be released.
They release said detainee and inform said nations and Interpol.
Interpol informs major Domestic Intelligence Agencies and airport hubs.

I don't work for PU, but...

I thought most or all of those detaines weren't criminals. I thought they were there for medical reasons. You know, people who really got screwed by the quantum genii or who were crazy and their eruption didn't help things.

If they get cured and aren't criminals, I don't think there are any laws requiring notification.

[Doctor Aeon]

Well, I used to work for Utopia. Bahrain is where test subjects come from. If you can't help the poor bastards, you surely can't just let them go either. Not with what they know.

[Agnelli Celeste]

Look, Copper.I know you try to do good, but really is the US sucha good place? I eman ever look into how many peopel are killed by white callored crime.You knwo the ones where on avrgage if you steal over 60,000,000 you only pay 1-2% in fiines back,and get maybe a half a year in a country club.

Let''s not forget thethe country that put people on death r,aand then it turns out that something like 1 in 20 of the poel killed in such a manor di dno commit the crime they were killed for.

Um, and as for Bahrain being so bad.ANyone remeber the last guy that got out of it?He went to las Vagas,and tried to kill every man, woman and child in the world! I want that person to be let losse and have freedom.And back the US goverment.It was around a half hour away from seting of a nuke in my home town.

And if Utopia wasn't making sure that nova was undergaud all that time,and then did not give a massive amount of aid to bring him back.DO you really think your goverment wouldn't have nuked it's own city to stop that plague?

What you have is that Sometime you must do eil things, tostop evil.This world is not one of black and white, but it is not one where you great evil will make up for a leser one.

[Meridian]

I've heard about several people being released from Bahrain in addition to the escapees. I'm sure they didn't see everything, after all the complex is reported to have several levels ... however I've seen little evidence to support some of the more outrageous claims like Dr. Aeon just made.

Have some novas gone in and not come out yet? Yes. Do I worry about that? You bet. Do I assume the worst because of that fact? Nope. I need more than speculation before I'll be willing to believe that Novas are treated worse than lab rats while there.

If some of the stories turn out to be true then by all means something will need to be done. My preference would be for more UN oversight of Utopia after an aggressive fact finding investigation ... but I'm sure that others will want more.

But you realize that we are talking about novas having 'vanished' into Bahrain and that something *might* have happened to them while we have the bodies ... or what is left of them ... that were left after some Teragen attacks. That's a pretty big difference in my mind.

I’ve seen the Teragen folks here make some good points but the actions of their compatriots seems to speak a bit louder to me. Even if novas aren’t human why can’t humans be treated with dignity and their lives be respected?

I guess that’s my big problem in a nutshell. By their actions the Teragen strongly show that they feel nova life is more important than human life. I value them equally.

If each nova is his own country I wish that these walking countries would act like ambassadors instead of … well they way they have been so far.

[Doctor Aeon]

Before I became Doctor Aeon, Meridian, I worked for Project Utopia for several years. I came on at the end of Sutherland's tenure. Tommy Hu brought me on. I am sure Dr. Dyachenko will remember my pranks with fondness. He worked with me on a few things.

Have one of your buddies ask either one of those men (Sutherland died back in '03), and I am sure you will get a response.

I don't suggest you follow my trail over to DeVries. I can't claim to have left under the best of circumstances. For that matter, they still seem to have some interest with the data I left with ... and the fire I started. Whoops. Some stuff you just can't leave lying around for the uninitiated.

Can you believe that they actually recommended my containment after my last profile?

Come on. Paranoid fantasies, Obsessive compulsive cleaning disorder, Sociopathic tendencies. Anyone that crazy couldn't do all the things I've done.

And gotten away with it.

[Cody]

Quote:

Originally posted by Meridian:
I need more than speculation before I'll be willing to believe that Novas are treated worse than lab rats while there.

That's a nice middle of the road answer but what does it really mean? That you're willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Good for you but remember Utopia has the final say on all things nova. They have the power to lock your butt away forever if they feel they have reason to and don't have to explain it to you or anybody else. They don't tell people their guidelines for why someone gets locked away.

That last one tells me enough to know to stay away from them like they were the plague.

[Meridian]

Quote:

Originally posted by Cody:
... but remember Utopia has the final say on all things nova. They have the power to lock your butt away forever if they feel they have reason to and don't have to explain it to you or anybody else. They don't tell people their guidelines for why someone gets locked away.

That's not quite true you know. Utopia has only the power that nations let it have. For instance if you're in Japan, China, or India for example it is pretty unlikely that Utopia will be allowed to do anything to you. Even in the good old US of A a lot depends on the local law enforcement. If they catch you Utopia will pressure the higher ups to hand you over but they still have to get permission.

I'm sure that Preston has stories about the political influence they have makes it fairly certain that novas get handed over ... but the reality is that it isn't that way everywhere and it might not be that way for long. The more scandles that come out the less likely Utopia is to get local cooperation.

[The Paragon]

Sorry, Cody. I had some work that I had to do. It isn't my intention to abandon the argument.

Why does Utopia, a private enterprise, become involved in legal matters?

The Accord worked out between the Aeon Society and the United Nations on 1, May, 1998 set forth the principles that Project Utopia was to operate under. The Project was to investigate and regulate all things involving novas. Technical Regulations and Market Oversight authorities were added later.

In matters of illegal activities, the Project is to assist local authorities in arresting and containing novas. This is the case of the police calling us in.

We are also to look into incidents of novas having their rights violated and/or ignored entirely. In this case, we report to both the Human Rights Commision and/or the Security Council.

Lastly, if a nova, for no fault of their own, is the source of an illegal action, the Project is supposed to step in and protect both the nova and the populace. These matters are referred to the Project Director. He takes various actions with the novas' native country and the United Nations on a case by case basis.

Cody, the guidelines are made on a case by case basis because so many quantum expressions are unique. There are no hard and fast rules. That is why we train our personnel so thouroughly. They have to make those kind of calls in the field. No, is isn't perfect, but it is the best solution we have come up with, so far.

There is this great myth that Project Utopia is unaccountable for our actions. We are accountable, but ususally no great PR campaign is raised about it.

Why? Usually it boils down to human rights issues, varies garunteed constitutional rights, and a need for personal privacy. The nations in question chose to deal with Utopia with some degree of discretion.

Some of us do not lose sight of the fact that individual lives hang in the balance.

On the issue of Bahrain; yes, people have been released. It is not a prison so much as a rehabilitation center. The novas we send there are suffering from aberrant quantum expressions. Either they have been twisted by their desire for power, or, in a few, tragic cases, by the curse of the "quantum genie." Not all novas appear with god-like powers and beautiful bodies.

In Bahrain, we work on a cure for this "taint". Novas have been around for all of 15 years. The research continues into why we erupt, why we can do what we do, and why taint exists.

And, yes, some people have also escaped. Much of what we must do for their, and humanities, safety is resented by the detainees. In a few cases, they have done nothing but erupt. It isn't their fault that their very existance threats all around them. It is a tragedy. Letting them travel about the planet freely would only expound upon the tragedy.

Someone must do something about novas that threaten the earth, wether it is intentional or not. That burden has fallen to Projcet Utopia.

No, I am not crying, "Poor pitiful PU, with all those terrible responsibilities!"

I am stating how it is.

You want to help?

Turn this situation around?

How about helping us instead of critisicing us?

Even if you just have useful suggestions, share them.

[Ashnod]

So...if it is a center for rehabilitation or a place that unstable Nova powers can be stablized...

Why was Sluice sent there for a non-violent protest of an unjust law in Florida?

He certainly wasn't unstable, and he didn't need rehabilitation.

[Agnelli Celeste]

And what about your friendly Teragen members.The ones that kill on ideal they are worthly?Who are you judge over another? Who gave you the rights to play God?

And if I am not mistaken but is not at least a small part of your movement those who were once people who fallowed another path?I mean really,sometime the only way you laaaern is by making mistakes..But You great movement, will only let's it's memebesr make mistakes,and turn another check.Hell if one of your memebers went around killing novas you would not raise a finger to stop it, until it killed a teragen.

So you want to be the leaders of novas, then take the good with the bad,as right now your just trying to play satan,and then are missing a few card from your deck.

[Meridian]

Why does every discussion of the negative side of the Teragen get turned into "but just look at Utopia."

[Agnelli Celeste]

Because the teragen have nothing worth wile to show, so they slam the other side. I mean I do not knw all the teragen, but I do knwo that more Teragen are threats to others than there are teragen that are helpful to others.

It is poblem, you see they say that we are bad, and such they must be good.As theya re nto us.Well I say this, I do not do anything that I would not let anyone else do,and I do not stop anything that I would not want someone from stop me from doing.

They just want to eat cake their cake, and have it too.

[Arek]

Quote:

Originally posted by Agnelli Celeste:
Because the teragen have nothing worth wile to show, so they slam the other side. I mean I do not knw all the teragen, but I do knwo that more Teragen are threats to others than there are teragen that are helpful to others.

Not entirely true. You must admit, having a organization lead by someone who just might be the most powerful Nova in existence has merit. He might know something that we don't. And at least they are unconcerned with how others think of them. They may have some shady characters, along with some uber-violent ones, but they seem to attract the philosophers and thinkers of Novadom.

[Ashnod]

Agnelli,

So you don't have an answer, then? The best you can manage is a pitiful attempt at sidestepping?

And what about your friendly Teragen members.The ones that kill on ideal they are worthly?Who are you judge over another? Who gave you the rights to play God?

Well, if we are indeed what people used to label as deities, then nature gave us the right. If you believe this, rather. That's the answer that scares most people.

In India Syndrome cases, the baselines themselves give us this power.

If we are nothing more than a new species with no magical or divine basis, then we have the same right to play "God" as any sentient species in existence. Personally, I think you are using the phrase to be overly dramatic in an attempt to paint the Teragen in a far darker light than it is. "Oh, look at the Teragen, they equate themselves with Yahweh and Allah and Buddah! How arrogant! Heretics!"

Simple and misleading language used to appeal to lesser minded individuals. And again, though it bores me to say this, you are blanketly applying this derision to the entirety of us, when only a sparce few would actually claim true divinity.

And if I am not mistaken but is not at least a small part of your movement those who were once people who fallowed another path?I mean really,sometime the only way you laaaern is by making mistakes..But You great movement, will only let's it's memebesr make mistakes,and turn another check.Hell if one of your memebers went around killing novas you would not raise a finger to stop it, until it killed a teragen.

So you want to be the leaders of novas, then take the good with the bad,as right now your just trying to play satan,and then are missing a few card from your deck.

Alright...normally I'm fairly adept at following whatever you or Sandy Davis write, but I'm going to admit defeat here and say I have no idea what point you were trying to make in these last two paragraphs. I think the first paragraph is intended to read like this:

And if I am not mistaken, didn't at least a small part of your movement once follow another path before joining the Teragen? I mean really, sometime the only way you learn is by making mistakes. But your great movement will only let its members make mistakes, and turn another cheek. Hell, if one of your members went around killing novas you would not raise a finger to stop it, until it killed a teragen member.

The italicized portion is what I believe you're actually trying to say, but it still makes absolutely no sense. I think you're trying to say we allow our members to make mistakes but hold everyone else to a higher standard. I'm very curious, then, if you believe us guilty of this type of hypocrasy, what mistakes do you feel that Utopia has made that the Teragen should be forgiving? That's the only reason I can see for you to make such a statement. Otherwise, yes, many of us followed a different philosophy before becoming part of the Teragen. Yes, sometimes the way to learn is by making mistakes. And yes, some of our members do kill other Novas. It isn't looked highly upon, but it does happen. But none of this relates to either my Bahrain question or your first paragraph. It seems to be rambling anger and nothing more.

Your second paragraph, I believe, should read like this:

So you want to be the leaders of novas, then take the good with the bad, as right now you're just trying to play satan, and then are missing a few card from your deck.

Trying to play Satan? Trying to play the devil, the adversary, or the fallen angel? How can you accuse us of playing God, then say we're just trying to play Satan? You might say, you're trying to play God, but only succeeding at playing Satan. That might make a lick of sense, since you'd be making a token effort to reiterate your argument. However, you can't play God but TRY to play Satan.

In any event, this is yet another poorly worded rant laced with religious and "good" references without any real substance. "Those Teragen are just playing Satan!" It's just as ridiculous, or worse, than when someone accuses all members of Project Utopia of being brainwashed, obedient cows of a massive conspiracy or the conspirators themselves. It simply isn't true and no amount of emotional pandering or slander is going to alter this fact.

[The Paragon]

Ashnod, yes, it was a non-violent protest and an unpopular law. Still, when the Tampa police decided to enforce it, we were obliged to assist them. By Utopian directive, we assist governments that do not repress the civil liberties of any of their citizens on a national level. Tampa was an exception to our normal policy due to it being a municipal ordanence.

We didn't harm Sluice. He came along peaceably. At any time during his detainment, was he harmed?

As for the unstable or rehabilitation question; he broke the law. That requires some level of rehabilitation. Baselines committing non-violent protests get sent to jail. Why wouldn't a nova? Is your argument going to be "baseline laws do not apply to novas", then why did he bother to protest it?

Sluice is a very powerful nova. That he chose to not harm anyone during his protest in Tampa was a good thing, but that continued good behavior wasn't something we could rely on. We placed him in Bahrain because that was the only place that could possibly detain him. After Geryon slaughtered all those people, the situation became more complicated.

Geryon claimed to be Sluice's ally and accomplice. In case you forgot, this was the Teragen's first pulbic act of terrorism.

We held on to Sluice to acertain the truth of the matter and to discover just how organized and violent the Teragen were.

You do aknowledge that the Teragen is a nova group, correct?

Then, it falls to Project Utopia to investigate it and determine what threat it possess to mankind as a whole. When the UN and its member nations ask us what is going on, they expect us to have answers. We were and are looking into those answers.

While individuals claiming allegience with the Teragen have committed multiple criminal acts all over the globe, Project Utopia does not go after every terat.

We don't trust the Teragen or most of its members. That isn't a reason to persecute you. Promoting your philosophy isn't criminal, just abhorrent.

Happy Meridian.

Yes, Arek, they have the most powerful nova. To most of the novas at the Project, it has never been about the power, but how the power is applied.

[Cody]

Re: Meridian

Exactly what difference does it make that Utopia's power is "on loan" from the rest of the world?

[Sandy Davis]

Cody, if you take the ideal that novas should be treated like any other human, with abnormal futures. Then you have to let governments, govern.

Taking into account that it is up to the government of said nation you are in as to weather or not Utopia can intervene on their behalf,and in some cases you behalf.

This means that the mad cop who is saying that Utopia does not take into account any legal legitimacy is really saying his government is not.But seeing as his government spent 20 years dealing out 40% of all contraband narcotics in side their legal boarders, it is safe to say he has a large blind spot for the mistakes made in the white house.

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by The Paragon:
We didn't harm Sluice. He came along peaceably. At any time during his detainment, was he harmed?
As for the unstable or rehabilitation question; he broke the law. That requires some level of rehabilitation. Baselines committing non-violent protests get sent to jail. Why wouldn't a Nova?

So Bahrain is a prison?

Baselines sent to jail for non-violent protests are not being sent there for any rehabilitation, save for negative reinforcement to encourage different behavior in the future.

[Meridian]

Cody ... it limits them as I described above. Utopia is not all powerful.

Pargorn ... I find it interesting that you are even discussing Bahrain. I am fairly close to a Utopian and she has been given strict orders to never discuss Bahrain with the pubic. Like most Utopians she just says 'no comment' whenever anyone asks.

Ashnod ... prisons are a fact of life. It is inevitable that one would be needed for novas. Even if the Teragen manages to come up with their perfect little all nova fantasy govenment odds are that it will have a prison too.

[Cody]

Been having some problems with my opnet connection today. Lots of interference ate several tries at posting so don't think I'm ignoring you.

Re: Paragon, Meridian, Miss Celeste

- The bitch of it is that I'm judged by a standard that don't exist in writing or in law. Its what someone (Utopia) thinks is right. That why there aren't guidelines. Giving you props for being willing to make the call don't mean I'm going to smile and nod when I think you're wrong. Hell, even if your right I still won't like it.

- I respect that whoever is doing the saying thinks they're doing right by the greatest number just like I respect the right on any individual to tell you to go to hell when they don't agree.

- I don't think Utopia is all powerful, if I did I wouldn't be talking with any of you.

- Sluice got locked up for... how long?... for what was nothing more than glorified trespassing. Down in my neck of the woods that means 30 days in a cell, 90 hours of community service or a $300.00 fine. Was Sluice held forever and a day because he was nova and the project was just erring on the side of caution, because some bueracrat didn't like his attitude or because he said he was terat?

Paragon, I'd love to help you out but here's the deal. I come from a place where its expected to ask questions of authority, demand explanations and to god damn well expect an answer to my satisfaction or run the answer to ground on my own. It sucks for you but then you chose making my tomorrow brighter so you get the ration of crap along with the ocassional compliment.

You got the UN on your side and that's a powerful nice thing. You got the right of law on your side and that's a wonder to behold too. None of which means a damn thing if I think I'm getting jerked around or don't like the answers I'm getting. Then you can expect me to hunt the answers in ways that project protocol might not expect, like or allow. Like I said, we question authority.

[The Paragon]

Cody, keep at it. No reason to let authority go about unquestioned. After all, even people with the best intentions can do wrong. Perfection is our goal, but were we are right now.

So, help keep us on that path.

Meridian, I believe I talking to different people about Bahrain. I also talk from experience. Still, if you want, I could talk with your friend about other questions you might have with the Project.

It is understandable, your desire to see the world on your own terms, but your presence is missed. You would make a great addition to any part of the project you chose to apply yourself to.

Ashnod, actually, Bahrain is a country in the Persian Gulf. It so happens that Project Utopia has several interlinked facilities in that country. Yes, there is a containment and rehabilitaion facility in Bahrain. There are also training facilities, research centers, libraries, schools, among others.

As far as I can tell, Ashnod, you want it both ways.

No baseline laws should be applied to novas until that nova gets arrested, then evey baseline right, law, and priviledge should apply?

The Zurich Accord guarunteed civil rights to all, novas included. It didn't say they would be applied stupidly.

When a nova choses to upset the legal system, his or her level of power is taken into account. A nova does present a different kind of threat when it comes to issues of containment and legal representation. This isn't the first time exceptional measures have been taken in the legal system. Some detainees go about in leg irons and body cuffs, while others go around with just handcuffs. Also, sufficiently difficult prisoners face solitary confinement and the like.

The rights of people working in a detainment facility are not ignored.

Please do not forget, that in Sluice's case, he chose to violate the law. Geryon's actions further complicated the matter. As the criminal matter was still being debated by the United States Judicial system, he escaped.

The fact that Bahrain's rehabilitation center was also to be used as a detention center was established back in April '05 when Yaroslav Radocani was interned there. Most people associate the word 'prison' with the negative side of incarceration.

With Utopia, rehabilitation is the ultimate goal. It is never the intention of Project Utopia to lock anyone away in a deep, dark hole and forget about them. It is our belief, that with enough time, work, and effort, anyone can healed. We are not there yet.

[Ashnod]

Paragon,

Actually, Cody beat me to the point I was trying to make. Sluice was "incarcerated" in Bahrain for an unspecified length of time for doing nothing more than trespassing what by baselines standards still consider an unjust law.

Were this a baseline violator of similar legislation in the United States, there would have been a pre-determined sentence in addition to a trial. If Sluice were determined to be an international citizen, the most he probably would have received was deportation. This isn't something that should have been "debated by the legal system." He violated a specific law and there should have been a sentence enforced on him after a trial.

As far as I can tell, Ashnod, you want it both ways.

No baseline laws should be applied to novas until that nova gets arrested, then evey baseline right, law, and priviledge should apply?

The Zurich Accord guarunteed civil rights to all, novas included. It didn't say they would be applied stupidly.

My point, Paragon, is that baseline law and right was not given to Sluice. Whether or not baseline law should or should not apply to Novas wasn't the question. I understand that to be safe for the officers in question, more extreme measures were necessary for Sluice's apprehension. I do not understand why, if the Zurich Accord applies to us, Sluice wasn't subject to prosecution by the city whose law he violated or the United States government and was instead sent to Bahrain for years. He was "incarcerated" in 2007 and escaped in 2009. A full two months passed between Sluice's arrest and Geryon's retribution. Sluice should have been released long before then, so he wasn't been held up until then because of Geryon's actions.