opnet [OpNet] A Nova understanding of death.

[Hugin]

Agnelli seems a little intent on this subject so I thought perhaps we could take a step away from the thread's current topic of fertility and take up the weighty topic of death here.

Miss Celeste, you posted a very agressive rant trying to educate Apep on the importance and impact of any individual's death. That you mistakenly threatened Ashnod in a round-about way only shows that you perhaps didn't think your way through completely.

So, I have a question for you: Can you, even for a moment, accept the possibility that given her experiences that Apep has a more complete understanding of death and killing than you yourself posses? Not whether or not she is right or wrong, but whether or not you, with your limited experience might not have the totality of understanding on the topic that Apep does? That you are perhaps not the person to lecture her?

[Apep]

Agnelli,

I have lost limbs on more than one occasion. My eyes have been taken from me before as well. If these are items you wish to have, by all means try to take them. Things far more important than flesh have been stolen from me. I am no stranger to loss and suffering.

I have seen death from all the angles which you present. I have killed people close to me. Loved ones have also died at the hands of others. I have seen mass murder and I have commited it myself. I have killed "innocents" and have watched them die. I have also saved lives and prevented death. Do not assume you understand me.

I can respect your compassion for life, but I do not feel you are qualified even the slightest to lecture me on the subject. If you feel you have wisdome to share, I will welcome it with open arms. But wisdom is a rare quality, and you have yet to prove that it is one you possess.

[Agnelli Celeste]

Apep seems to know nothing of death, but she knows about killing.She seems to have never lost anyone she cared for.

She has killed more people than I care to think of, but from what I understand she has no graspe on what it is to be on the other side of that lose.

So wile I am not the cold blooded killer she is,I cna say this.I have killed people,and have those I love die.I knwo what it is like to be on both ends of death, what I gather she only understand the killing part.

[Sakurako Hino]

I know plenty. I know what it feels like to both take, and lose. But, I think this conversation isn't mine to participate in. But let me tell you this. There is more here on this earth that can be explained by science or technology. The soul is one of those things. Why deprive someone of the journey that is life?

[Apep]

Can you even read you dolt? I mentioned that yes, people that I love have been killed.

[Agnelli Celeste]

I can, but my post was do a an error in my opnet server.Things like this happen when you are where I am.

[Hugin]

So, your response would be a resounding 'no' then?

Apep, you've lost a limb? On more than one occasion? How....disappointing. I admit I've created an image of you in my mind as that of an unstoppable, unplaccable force of destruction. That you would be so vunerable is a tad disillusioning. Aw well, that will teach me for engaging in that oh so baseline practice of deification.

Curious, do you find the process of regeneration painful? I ask simply out of intellectual curiousity.

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:
Apep, you've lost a limb? On more than one occasion? How....disappointing. I admit I've created an image of you in my mind as that of an unstoppable, unplaccable force of destruction. That you would be so vunerable is a tad disillusioning. Aw well, that will teach me for engaging in that oh so baseline practice of deification.

So the fact that once a limb is removed it can be regrown within scant seconds isn't awe-inspiring? Trust me, hon, when you've cut off a limb and think you've suddenly got an advantage and it returns before you're able to land another blow...I'm willing to bet you'd think your opponent unstoppable.

[Cody]

All I got to say is that it would impress the hell out of me.

[Apep]

Quote:

Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:
Curious, do you find the process of regeneration painful? I ask simply out of intellectual curiousity.

Sorry to disapoint you. I do have a particular playmate whose claws are nearly as sharp as mine.

Regenerating is a bit painful but it's a refreshing sensation.

[Jager]

I don't tend to feel confident that the fight is over until I sense their quantum dissipating. Even then, don't rely on just one sense. Use everything you've got.

To say that Apep is impressive in a fight is like saying the sun sheds light.

James, it isn't the invulnerability. It is the speed and alternating dimensions she brings to the fight that really stagger the imagination.

To say that Apep doesn't understand death is to miss the entire power behind the point of her nails. Sure, the nail will cut you, but it is the experience behind the hand that sends you to the grave.

The first lesson my initial mentor taught me was this:

"To learn to not to kill, you must first learn to kill."

Its about understanding your choices.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Jager:
To say that Apep is impressive in a fight is like saying the sun sheds light...To say that Apep doesn't understand death is to miss the entire power behind the point of her nails. Sure, the nail will cut you, but it is the experience behind the hand that sends you to the grave.

And she is green and gorgeous too. I'd love to try to sacrifice a clone against her sometime...

[Hugin]

Ah, I am misunderstood. Not an uncommon occurence. I meant in no way to denigrate Apep's skills or formidable nature. No, merely admiting to having invested in her godlike, even when compared to other Novas, infallibility in combat. I simply had let my imagination get the better of me.

If anything, knowing that she has these 'flaws' yet is as successful as she is makes her even more imposing when I think about it.

[Sakurako Hino]

The way I see it, is that if there are any weaknesses in Apep's facade, she knows of them, and builds upon them, untill they're noting mroe than minor irritations. I have seen her work. Her efficiency is... monstrous... yet strangely... artistic. Not in a sense of a painting or poem, but in perfecting of a method of operation to allow the shortest distance between the first blow and the last. I do have an appreciation of the martial arts. Although I do not like killing, Apep seems to know that when she needs to use the fullest extent of her potential, she can. It scares me to analyse her like this... but it helps me to know that I at least can analyse a subject somewhat detached. But, in no way to I condone murder as an artform. I only see myself now even using my fullest force in my own defence. (Albeit I'm a 98 pound weakling sort to say.)

(Sorry about the typos. Bad keyboard. Getting a new one.)

[Sandy Davis]

No one relly knows what happne after someone dies.No one really cn say for sure about the after life.

But a tricky thing is, what is God.If you think something made life, then why not call it god?After all, who said "God" had to be flawless,and who said God had to be a white breerded man?

And what most peopel do not understand that sometime the greatest weakness is thinking you have none.

[Cody]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ghost of Sandy Davis:
If you think something made life, then why not call it god?

I don't think folks would feel comfortable admitting something like that. In the back of their minds, folks are waiting for some nova to do just that. Once you make it a test by saying, "Only God can do X", you got to deal with someone else passing the test.

It would be different if folks knew what we could and couldn't do but that ain't the case.

[Vixen]

If you're talking about death and killing in a clinical and scientific manner, then yes - I admit that Apep's probably an expert on telling you which bones to break and where to make the cut.

If your'e talking the larger picture - the socio-political ramifications of violence and war, and the simple yet potent impact of loosing a loved one and having a hole in your life that will never be filled - then no. I don't think she's aware of that. I think she needs to stay unaware of that in order to do her job and that she's not going to listen to earnest advice from anyone since it might mean admitting that what she's been doing all this time is not something to be proud of. I think she's caught in a cycle that is going to end badly - that one day she'll meet someone who's just that little bit faster and she'll be dead, and then what?

It's not something I can endorse. It makes no sense to me. Maybe you see battles of pride and honor, two combatants testing their skill with dignity and honor, but all I see is horror and death and bloodshed, and it's not something I can take part in. I feel other's pain too keenly for that - I can read thoughts and can't bring myself to extinguish them. I can smell a million times better than a normal human being and that means the stench of a corspe is a million times as potent.

Now before someone tells me that I'm holding this position because I've never seen real combat... thanks, but I have. Sure, the other nova wasn't trying to kill me so much as cripple me and rape me, and sure, it wasn't a conventional battleground, and sure, I didn't use conventional tactics... but it was a battle. I've been there, I know what that's like, and I'm still holding this position.

I guess that makes me a bit of a pacifist, which historically has always been a philosophical position few can understand. I guess you can relate to that, Prodigy.

[Jager]

God is a woman. Seen it. Walked away intact.

Remember;

To look upon God's face is to put all your worries behind you.

To hear God's voice, directly, is to never have to hear anything again.

I am not in a real hurry to do either.

GoS, the worst weaknesses are the ones that defeat you before you ever get into the fight. Not thinking you have weaknesses merely means you are more likely to be unpleasantly suprised somewhere along the path.

Also, God is in every flaw as well as every perfection.

Or, as another wise one bothered to spew forth on me;

"We are all God, learning about the universe and him/herself. After all, God is timeless. How do you think He/She got to know everything in the first place? By experiencing it through us."

It was one of those things that I initially wanted to say "Nah" to, but it kind of stuck with me. Any thoughts?

[Jager]

Hey, Vixen.

I understand your commitment to non-violent resolution of conflicts, but I think you are still missing something in the life experiences category. You have been in a fight, and you have struggled against some bad things. It isn't the same thing as deciding wether or not you are a killer.

I can tell you this, though. That Kistune Blast of yours isn't a love-tap. It is the clear capacity of your sub-concious to kill that which threatens you. You are a long way from being a pacifist. Keep trying, if it makes you happy, though. Turning away from the inherent ability to lash out and destroy is a laudable task. Please, do not assume you are there, yet. Anyone can drop a log over a river. That doesn't make it a bridge.

If you want to talk about this further, please give me a call. I would like us to remain on friendly terms, if not friends.

[Sakurako Hino]

Jager, RE; God's Gender and Identity:

God is asexual. A living embodyment of all. The very conciousness of the universe. But, that isn't the real gist of this thread.

[Vixen]

Well, I could make a case for it being part of that whole kitsune-mystique thing that I'm still puzzling out - but in all honesty, yes, there's probably been times when being able to chuck fire and lightning has appealed to my subconscious. Doesn't necessarily mean I have to listen to it, though.

As for a love-tap, well... Geryon thought it was.

Right now I'm experimenting to see if it's just the most obvious form of a greater level of fire and lightning manipulation - the first trick I mastered since it was the trick I subconsciously associated with those wacky trickster goddesses. Haven't had much luck yet, and it's sort-of a damgerous thing to play around with in the city limits so I don't want to take too many risks.

It's sort-of weird, having people make psychological judgements about you based on whether or not you can juggle cars or pluck bullets out of the air. I can't for the life of me tell you how I wound up turning into a living plush toy but here I am. It sort of forces you to confront things about yourself, even as it makes it harder for you to deal with them because even if you do change... you still have the same powers and everyone makes the same judgements.

[Walker]

What I find really interesting is the fact that so many Novas erupt with frighteningly efficient death dealing powers.

If you except the theory that the distinctive Nova powers come from the Novas psychological interpretation of themselves and reality, with a smatering of influence from the circumstances of erruption, then it seems we have a lot of Novas with a subconcious desire to be killing machines.

I wonder if a propensity to violence helps a latent nova to erupt in some way? If you take into account the number of eruptions that involve conflict, challenge, frustration, danger etc, etc. it forms a pretty high percentage.

[Jager]

Walker, how about the rage of feeling so helpless at the moment of their impending death?

Me, I didn't express any lethal tendancies for some time after my eruption. Most of what I had went toward optimizing survivability. It wasn't until I made the concious choice to be able to hurt others that I, for instance, got stronger. Even then, I was still limited by my perceptions of who and what I was.

Vixen, going out and getting a gun doesn't make you a killer. That is exactly what your sub-concious did. It went out and got you the ability to kill (the gun, so to speak), not the desire to. Now, if you go out and refine your fire and lightning down to the level were it shatters molecular and atomic bonds, then I feel secure in calling you a killer. You haven't. So far.

Probably the most terrifying thing about this discussion is the feeling I get from some of our contributers is that people like Apep, and me, were born as some sort of aberration. In my experience, it is the remarkable person who doesn't have the ability to learn to kill and kill rather casually.

Walker, look at it from this angle. Every nova who has some sort of offensive ability and something that allows them to leave the scene quickly, has the ability to act out their aggression and get away with it. For a short time, anyway. Couple that with your basic human needs/desire hierarchy ...

Dr. Troll is a prime example. Hell of a nice guy. Someone you wouldn't mind your daughter (if you had a daughter) dating. Now, he becomes a nova. Mentally and morally, he is still pretty much the same person.

How many people has he (or his clones) killed?

Doesn't he want to continue experimenting with his clones to see what they can do? Despite some of the obvious risks and hazards for anyone in the vicinity?

Before, he was some overworked grad student with the whole weight of the world falling upon his slender shoulders. Now, he has the power to immediately and permanently effect his world, and he uses it.

Doc, right after your first mission I think you said something about them being "bad" people you killed. Buddy, dead is dead. Those Bad People have families that needed them and mothers that loved them, too. I am sure all of your victims decided at an early age that they all wanted to be bottom-tier enforcers for some drug cartel. I am sure that is what their parents aspired to as well.

But, hey. They made those bad career choices, right? I guess their parents should have tried harder, or something.

By the way, Doc, I still think you are a hell of a nice guy. I hope by using you as an example that many here know, I haven't offended you. It wasn't my intent. It is just that not to long ago, you were one of THEM. A good, solid not-too-above-average citizen. Now, what are you?

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Jager:...it is the remarkable person who doesn't have the ability to learn to kill and kill rather casually.

Personally I think it is more a matter of unlearning how not to. That would explain some of my dumber moves, or rather some of the moves I've made with all the intelligence stripped away.

Quote:

Jager:Dr. Troll ... Hell of a nice guy. Someone you wouldn't mind your daughter (if you had a daughter) dating.

Thank you. Now if only someone had made that clear to the daughters...

Quote:

Jager:I am sure all of your victims decided at an early age that they all wanted to be bottom-tier enforcers for some drug cartel.

You give me far too much credit. At my worst I'm as discriminating as a natural disaster.

Quote:

Jager:How many people has he (or his clones) killed?

Only dozens I hope. Perhaps hundreds.

Quote:

Jager:Mentally and morally, he is still pretty much the same person.

At least some of the time...

Quote:

Jager:Doesn't he want to continue experimenting with his clones to see what they can do? Despite some of the obvious risks and hazards for anyone in the vicinity?...Now, what are you?

Probably a good time to mention again that I'm transferring from DVNTS to DeVries, at least for a while. In another week or so I'll have my Medical Doctors license (the skills were a gift from the quantum genie). The pay will be less, but hey, money isn't everything.

I came to the conclusion that I didn't like some of the effects the business was having on my personality. Maybe this will be just a long working vacation, but I'm out of the warrior elite business for now.

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Vixen:

I guess that makes me a bit of a pacifist, which historically has always been a philosophical position few can understand. I guess you can relate to that, Prodigy.

Relate to being a pacifist? Oh my goodness no. I find pacifism to be a bit of a dodge. Personal opinion mind you. I've always felt that if you had a problem with a situation and the ability to change it, you owed it to yourself to at least give it a shot.

[Jager]

Doc, congrats on the impending liscence. At the very least, your next assignment is less likely to see someone trying to gouge your eyes out the back of your head.

Do you have any specialty in mind?

For that matter, if I had a daughter, I wouldn't mind her dating you. After all Daddy's Little Girl has to learn to take out all kinds of people.

James, in the defense of pacifism;

A true pacifist does not dodge responsibility. They merely seek non-violent solutions to conflicts.

Blind pacifism, like blind faith, can be very annoying. If someone wants to call themselves a pacifist, I want them to work at it.

By the by, have you seen Walt around? I recently developed the need to talk with him, but he seems to be in hiding. No worries. It is just something on my "To Do" list.

[Walker]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
Walker, how about the rage of feeling so helpless at the moment of their impending death?

... Probably the most terrifying thing about this discussion is the feeling I get from some of our contributers is that people like Apep, and me, were born as some sort of aberration. In my experience, it is the remarkable person who doesn't have the ability to learn to kill and kill rather casually ...

Walker, look at it from this angle. Every nova who has some sort of offensive ability and something that allows them to leave the scene quickly, has the ability to act out their aggression and get away with it. For a short time, anyway. Couple that with your basic human needs/desire hierarchy ...

Forgive me for mixing your words around Jager. The rage at impending death is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about, to be a bit more specific, does having a higher than 'normal' level of agression help eruption? Given the overtly offensive nature of some of the powers we erupt with, I'd reackon yes. I'm thinking here of things like diamond hard claws, chucking lightning bolts about and stuff like that. Of course, my weapons are everything that exists but some things are constructed specifically as weapons.

On another one of your points, humans pretty much occupy the top of the food chain, so it's only natural that they do not balk at killing if sufficiently acclimitised. No good being the ultimate predator/non specialist by genetic 'design' if your gentic 'behaviour' limits your aggressive tendencies too much.

For my part I was making no judgements as to the morality of such acts, it's mearly interesting from a kind of socio-biological point of view; whether certain traits aid in eruption or not. Of course all humans have a propensity towards violence, and novas tend to have a lot of the same traits in common with baseline humanity. Also, normality is a statistical fiction, a useful idea but not ever found in practice, so don't read too much into me suggesting that novas might have a greater tendency for agression, which is probably a better and less value laden term than violence. I was speaking of general scientific type ideas.

Quote:

I've always felt that if you had a problem with a situation and the ability to change it, you owed it to yourself to at least give it a shot.

Amen, to that James

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:

James, in the defense of pacifism;
A true pacifist does not dodge responsibility. They merely seek non-violent solutions to conflicts.

Yes, and I consider that a dodge.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:

By the by, have you seen Walt around? I recently developed the need to talk with him, but he seems to be in hiding. No worries. It is just something on my "To Do" list.

Walt is on my "To Do" list also. Thus, his difficult to pin down location.

[Jager]

I will honor your prior commitment, then. If the situation changes, please let me know.

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
I will honor your prior commitment, then. If the situation changes, please let me know.

Is this about Rossi? If so, perhaps we can speak.

[Jager]

Certainly. Pick a spot.

[Apep]

He's not in trouble again is he?

[Jager]

Jordan, James, or me?

[Apep]

I was refering to Jordan, but I guess I would be interested in the well being of all of you.

[Jager]

Jordan has dropped beneath my radar. He could be in some sort of trouble, but other people are looking for him. Most unfriendly.

[Vixen]

Quote:

Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:

Quote:

Originally posted by Vixen:

I guess that makes me a bit of a pacifist, which historically has always been a philosophical position few can understand. I guess you can relate to that, Prodigy.

Relate to being a pacifist? Oh my goodness no. I find pacifism to be a bit of a dodge. Personal opinion mind you. I've always felt that if you had a problem with a situation and the ability to change it, you owed it to yourself to at least give it a shot.

I was actually talking about your belief in the Teras philosophical viewpoint, which is also a belief that few will understand.