Aberrant: Stepping from Eden - Stepping from the Chamber...

[metaphysician]

Psiads can use quantum powers as well

Wait, what?

[Alistaire]

Yeah, I don't remember that being written anywhere either. Are you (forge) perhaps confusing the fact that psiad powers can be simulated using quantum powers if you are just using Aberrant rules and not Trinity ones? That's the only explanation I can think of. In the mean time, I'm going to go double-check on that, just in case.

[Forge]

Wait, what?

Yeah, I don't remember that being written anywhere either. Are you (forge) perhaps confusing the fact that psiad powers can be simulated using quantum powers if you are just using Aberrant rules and not Trinity ones? That's the only explanation I can think of. In the mean time, I'm going to go double-check on that, just in case.

Pg 59-60 of the APG, read it. Not gonna post the whole thing, yes it is in reference to psiads being played in Aberrant, but there is no reason why a trinity psiad could not use q-powers once Edenites were exposed to play, not to mention Process 418.

[metaphysician]

Reading the psiad chargen rules, I see nothing in there about psiads being able to use or learn quantum powers. There is a list of quantum powers that can be used to *represent* the psi powers they have, but thats not the same thing.

[SkyLion]

Yeah Forge, no dice. Those are rules for people who want psiads in Aberrant and who don't have the Trinity rules. Psiads manipulate psi and have absolutely nothing to do with Quanum, outside of the rare QK.

[Forge]

Reading the psiad chargen rules, I see nothing in there about psiads being able to use or learn quantum powers. There is a list of quantum powers that can be used to *represent* the psi powers they have, but thats not the same thing.

Yeah Forge, no dice. Those are rules for people who want psiads in Aberrant and who don't have the Trinity rules. Psiads manipulate psi and have absolutely nothing to do with Quanum, outside of the rare QK.

Oh for crying out loud people, read the book. ::brick

page 60 of APG

"A psych cannot purchase Mega-Physical Attributes at all; he can, however, buy up to two dots of any other Mega-Attribute. On the bright side, he is not limited with regard to the Mega-Mental or Mega-Social enchancements he may buy."

"A psiad cannot purchase a power with a Quantum minimum (or, for our purposes here, Psi minimum) higher than four. Further, he can only buy up to two dots in a power (although he may buy two separate techniques if they're available). The powers function about the same as written; just substitute "psi" for "quantum" when necessary. A psych may not purchase the following powers:..."

And then it lists a whole bunch of powers they can't have.

And now, with the presumption that psiads in Trinity cannot have q-powers being that there are not any novas around to 'learn' from and possibly the issue of power balance (why buy modes if you could buy powers), and maybe the fact that the APG came out waaay after most of the Trinity books. I don't see any reason, barring ST fiat, that once latents were exposed to novas again, and didn't happen to be dunked, that they could not again purchase mega-atts or q-powers when they became 'in-tune'.

So again I say...read the section. ::tongue

[Rorx]

Boy are you wrong Forge! ::biggrin

The others are correct, you either fake a Psiad using Aberrant rules/powers or you use Trinity Psi Modes, you can't mix and match.

It's not a case of them not having anyone to learn from, otherwise they would have a mixture when they self-triggered. There is a fundamental incompatability between Psi and Quantum except at very low levels as in the Adventure Inspired and incredibly rare Nova post 418 who retain Psi 1 like a Neutral.

The only way for Psychomorphs to weild Quantum is through Quantakinesis, and that won't be available to Psiads for a number of generations of reinforcing breeding yet. ::biggrin

[Alistaire]

Speaking of reading the book...

The distinctions noted here derive from the simple fact that psychs don't channel quantum energy.

APG p. 59

Again, basic mechanics don’t differ much. A psych’s effects use a different form of energy than what a nova uses, though. For those powers a psiad uses, substitute Psi for Quantum in rules references.

APG p. 59

Plus numerous reminders to replace the word/concept of "quantum" with "psi" e.g. "quantum minimum" becomes "psi minimum", etc. Nowhere does it say that they can do both, or even give you rules on how to do that. Otherwise it would give the Trinity "psi-powers" rules in a way that would allow a beginning character to divide up their powers between quantum and psi abilities. There's no listed way to do it. Plus it doesn't make sense given the background explanations of how psi and quantum work, and how they interact. They quite clearly state about psiad/nova genetics:

The variables involved are many, but once the developmental switch flips one way, it can’t be flipped back. An individual with the proper genetic background might erupt as a nova, or he might manifest as a Pyschomorph. A nova doesn’t develop latent psi talent; he grows an M-R node. Conversely, a psych won’t develop a node; he possesses latency, which may later develop into psychic power.

APG p. 58

Sure it is not explicitly stated that "psychs can't use quantum powers", but I think that the first quote above is close enough, supported by these other quotes. Plus there is the big explanation as to "Why No Quantakinesis?" (APG p. 61). What would that even be an issue if they had direct access to quantum powers instead of doing it the 'underpowered' way of QK?

Now I'll grant that it could have been written more clearly, but the APG isn't known for having been the best put-together work WW has done. Still, if you want them to have quantum powers in any game you run, of course you're free to do that.

The only way for Psychomorphs to weild Quantum is through Quantakinesis, and that won't be available to Psiads for a number of generations of reinforcing breeding yet.

Hmm, good idea! A new project for Liam... ::devil ::tongue

[Alex Green]

And then it lists a whole bunch of powers they can't have.

Basically *anything* that involves taint. Manipulating taint, or needing it... and it's that last which is the real limit since that includes the Q5+ powers.

RE: Psiads vs. Psions

IMHO Psiads are self taught, very much like novas. The idea of an "order" of psiads isn't workable since (in theory) they don't and can't teach each other anything. In theory, psions can teach each other things and should learn stuff faster because they're all stamped from one of the same molds.

Of course that's the theory, in practice we saw Splash teach Raindrop how to do stuff, so I don't see a reason why psiads couldn't teach each other stuff, and mechanically there's no experience point punishment for any character class so the entire issue is pretty moot.

What we have is two different sets of rules... and the (not small) fact that psions are "real" members of society. I.e. they can use their powers openly, and legally, without serious problems. Psiads could very easily be mistaken for novas because they wouldn't have "official" powers.

[Alex Green]

There is a fundamental incompatability between Psi and Quantum except at very low levels as in the Adventure Inspired and incredibly rare Nova post 418 who retain Psi 1 like a Neutral.

IMHO those rare "novas" are actually Stalwarts.

A Q1, taint zero nova can, in theory, with enough practice, have a 50+ soak and Mega-Stat 2 for every Attribute. Expecting someone like that to also have Psi seems a bit much... but I'm not sure how we'd get lower than that.

Q1, Taint 0, no powers or megas?

[SkyLion]

Right...Forge, that whole section is merely for Aberrant STs who don't have the Trinity rules to simulate a psiad without buying another book. This is the same as when White Wolf prints up "Lupines" in the Vampire antagonists section and describes their abilities in terms of the "disciplines" they have. It's a quick-stat fix-patch.

Since we ARE using the Trin rules, we are ignoring that section.

[Forge]

bah, its like Forge vs. The Mob with torches and pitchforks.

If you go along with most of your guys' sentiments then somehow in the wide Aeoniverse there are actually two types of Psiads instead of one.

And psiads don't channel quantum, they use psi equivalents, as I stated before, so yes they can have q-powers. There is no incompatibility issue.

Psiads are suppose to be the 'natural' evolution of humans instead of forced via dunking or Divis medling around, so why in storyline terms would they magically stop emulating q-powers and start using psi modes, expect for the fact that they don't have exposure to Novas? Does any psiad that happens to manifest on Eden use psi modes or does he use q-powers? Once the Upeo contact and start relations with the Edenites, then what happens? There is no valid reason why you couldn't mix and match, or at the very least, allow purchasing with experience, modes or q-powers/m-atts, (whichever you didn't have) once the timeline moved that far.

Just because they don't say you can, doesn't mean you can't. Generally when something isn't forbidden, that means its allowed. Otherwise the rule books would just be lists of things that weren't allowed and start to look a lot like American Law.

And somehow, even with Quantum and Psi being fundamentally incompatable, QK still exists in the game, which breaks every rule about Quantum and Psi working together. The reason psychs can't use QK is because unlike their q-power equivalents, QK does actually mess with quantum and taint, which is off limits.

Psiads could easily ride the coat-tails of Edenite exposure to allow themselves to be public, at least a little. There wouldn't be that many anyway, my idea for the Order was a joke besides.

Regardless of my opinions, or anyone elses for that matter, I'm done debating the issue, because it doesn't really matter...pretendy fun time games.

[Forge]

Right...Forge, that whole section is merely for Aberrant STs who don't have the Trinity rules to simulate a psiad without buying another book. This is the same as when White Wolf prints up "Lupines" in the Vampire antagonists section and describes their abilities in terms of the "disciplines" they have. It's a quick-stat fix-patch.

Since we ARE using the Trin rules, we are ignoring that section.

So what if you are playing a Trinity game, (like ourselves) and you want to create a psiad? There are no rules in the Trinity setting anywhere as far as I know to create them. Without the APG, you can't create a psiad.

If I want an Abby Psiad, then I need the APG & Abby Core. (argument works)

If I want a Trinity Psiad, then I need the APG & Trinity Core at least. (cross genre needed, argument doesn't work)

[Rorx]

So what if you are playing a Trinity game, (like ourselves) and you want to create a psiad? There are no rules in the Trinity setting anywhere as far as I know to create them. Without the APG, you can't create a psiad.

If I want an Abby Psiad, then I need the APG & Abby Core. (argument works)

If I want a Trinity Psiad, then I need the APG & Trinity Core at least. (cross genre needed, argument doesn't work)

That is simply because they didn't bother printing the rules for Psiads anywhere in the Trinity line. I'm not sure about the timing but I think the Trinity line was basically going out the window at the time they did the APG.

The Abby version of the Psiad is only for those who don't have access to the Trinity books, otherwise you should always use the Psi Modes, as that is how they are actually intended to be in terms of their powers etc. It's not a case that they 'forgot' how to use q-powers, but that if you have Trinity, they never used them at all. If you don't have Trinity, then the APG suggests ways you could simulate what they should be capable of using the power framework you do have available.

All psiads (about 2 statistically) in the history of Eden had Psi Modes not q-powers. All Psiads everywhere/anywhen had Psi modes. In game terms they were simulated with q-powers by those who didn't have the books to do it properly.

Quantum and Psi are incompatible, QK only manages to get around it by spending lots more power (Psi pts) than would be the case for any similar power in another Mode and because it is a 'dirty'/forced workaround produces some low level Taint when active.

On a different issue Forge, if you look through some of the Stepping Form the Light Topics you should find an attachment of Core and Alternate Teleportation Modes I'm using in my games. Let me know if you have any questions about them...

[Forge]

I've been waiting for Rorx to reply to my last PM before I posted my background as we have been going back and forth on my stats, and I wanted to make sure we were Kosher before I produced such, but now...

I will be away for awhile, as my wife will popping (baby) on Wednesday, and I don't see myself having time for much else for at least a couple weeks.

[Rorx]

Sorry Forge, that has been totally my fault in not getting to a copmuter to do a decent reply for you (my mobile can't handle long posts/PM's unless I can do it by quickediting the abbreviated post I start with).

I'll sort that out for you soon. In the meantime Congratulations as I saw over on NPrime that you have a new son. Hopefully you will get time to get back to this, but if you don't on that timescale, don't worry about it. That's one advantage with the Upeo being involved, they can summon people they know to them theoretically from anywhere, at anytime so once you are ready we can bring you in as reinforcements...

[SkyLion]

A copmuter eh? That sounds handy! When the officer pulls you over and is yelling at you for your license and registration you just hit the mute button and shrug. What was that? i'm sorry officer I can't hear you...maybe some charades would help??? ::laugh

[Alistaire]

Hey guys, Rorx; I've had my internet down for the past month and thus haven't been able to get on here. Did I miss anything important? I see the IC thread is up; I'll have to spend a little time catching up there I suppose. Maybe Liam's just slept in or something. ::tongue

[Rorx]

Nah, you didn't miss much Alistaire, just some stuff with the Novas. In fact I'm hoping to get back on line later today to move things forward to an intro session between the Psion and Novas, so it's good luck that you are back on line now.