Alex Green Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 SuperCharge works pretty well *by* *itself*.AP is only a seriously good thing with certain builds.If we assume someone is dodging, then the number of extra succ should be manageable (only the extra succ counts).Where it gets interesting is with massive Mega-Dex builds, or with Ambush Assassins. For example Totentanz really should have claws + AP because he's throwing around +15 succ on his typical encounter.So yeah, Clawsx2 is a problem while doubled range x2 isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metaphysician Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 Thats the thing, reading the description, it seems that attack sux count, *not* extra attack sux.So, if you roll ten sux, even if the other guy rolls nine sux to dodge, you still get 10 sux worth of AP.Unless it was errataed, and I forgot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 Page 243 (In the Defensive Maneuvers section): "...If the attacker gets more successes, those that he achieves in excess of the defender's successes, if any, are used to hit.... So even if the defender has fewer successes than the attacker does, the defender's maneuver can still reduce the effectiveness of the attack..."My read on this is Defensive Succ subtract from Attack Succ. Note this isn't the only place where this is important, Agg attacks use this to determine damage and generic attacks do extra dice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rorx Posted August 21, 2008 Author Share Posted August 21, 2008 Alex, no problem witht he character in general, but I did wonder about the Invulnerability5np for +1 Invulnerability: Mental Powers, +BC: Energy, +BC: Physical + Mastery (tainted for half cost) Point Cost for INV, base cost (3), free extra (+3), extra raising evel to 3 (+2), extra raising level to 4 (+2), then Tainted for half cost.My problem withit is that I always considered that an Invulnerability to a new thing would be a new purchase of Invulnerability, not something tacked on as an Extra. In addition, the change to a Broad Category is meant to be an Extra, so as you have it written (if it can work like that at all) I think it would be:Invulnerability (lvl2): mental +BC (Extra1), Energy +BC (Extras 2 +3), Physical +BC (Extras 4 + 5) + Mastery (Auto raising a lvl)Which by my calculation would put it at Lvl 5 + 1Extra?My reading of it would make it 3 purchases:Inv : Mental BC + Mastery = lvl 3+(Extra?)INV: Energy BC + mastery = dittoINV: Physical BC + mastery = dittoAnyone else care to comment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BcAugust Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 Alex, no problem witht he character in general, but I did wonder about the Invulnerability5np for +1 Invulnerability: Mental Powers, +BC: Energy, +BC: Physical + Mastery (tainted for half cost) Point Cost for INV, base cost (3), free extra (+3), extra raising evel to 3 (+2), extra raising level to 4 (+2), then Tainted for half cost.My problem withit is that I always considered that an Invulnerability to a new thing would be a new purchase of Invulnerability, not something tacked on as an Extra. In addition, the change to a Broad Category is meant to be an Extra, so as you have it written (if it can work like that at all) I think it would be:Invulnerability (lvl2): mental +BC (Extra1), Energy +BC (Extras 2 +3), Physical +BC (Extras 4 + 5) + Mastery (Auto raising a lvl)Which by my calculation would put it at Lvl 5 + 1Extra?My reading of it would make it 3 purchases:Inv : Mental BC + Mastery = lvl 3+(Extra?)INV: Energy BC + mastery = dittoINV: Physical BC + mastery = dittoAnyone else care to comment?Yeah, in our game, and by reading of the power, it would be three separate purchases. After all, each is a separate invulnerability to the question of "Specific form of attack" in the power description. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 Mental isn't a BC. It's an example in the book and more akin to INV:Fire. So that's 2 extras and Mastery. If we apply Mastery first INV becomes Level 3, two extras make it level 4.My problem withit is that I always considered that an Invulnerability to a new thing would be a new purchase of Invulnerability, not something tacked on as an Extra.Extremely broad definitions of INV could be represented as several BCs. For example instead of buying Armor as "Armor", it could be INV:Physical + INV:Energy. Interestingly both options are the same nova points for the same effect (at Q1). 2 dots of Armor + Imperv (10 NP) or 1 dot of INV:Physical and 1 dot of INV: Energy.Where it gets interesting in that last case is what happens when you have 7 exp and want to increase your defenses? Either your "Armor" becomes better at stopping one effect or you simply have to wait till you have 14 exp to buy up. I'd wanted one effect to represent multi-dimension-ness (his potential weight is beyond absurd)... for the same points I could have gotten INV:Mental+Mastery and Forcefield+Mastery. He has Intuition so ambush isn't a consideration and the effect would have been similar (soak would be considerably higher, Agg wouldn't be covered just yet). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rorx Posted August 22, 2008 Author Share Posted August 22, 2008 Alex, I'm not sure what you are trying to say in your last post. You start off still trying to claim that both the Physical BC, and the Energy BC can be bought as a single Extra each, but have them as separate purchases of Inv in your Armour example.By the way in your Armour thing, the Armour has the advantage when bought with NP as the Impervious also defeats AP. However, the Inv wins in play as you are paying for the 2nd dot onwards rather than the 3rd +. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 You start off still trying to claim that both the Physical BC, and the Energy BC can be bought as a single Extra each, but have them as separate purchases of Inv in your Armour example.(It was late, my thinking was sub-par.)The point I'm making is while you can purchase multiple powers to represent one effect, it's easier and smoother to purchase one power to represent one effect. That way as the underlying effect changes, the entire power does.In the Q1 multiple INV example, if his "Armor" is disrupted, it loses only it's ability to stop energy or physical attacks but not both. Of course Extra and level limitations limit alternatives, so sometimes you don't have a choice.The classic example of an Insanely broad definition of INV is "Everything" or "Constantly altering reality so you can't be affected". Presumably this only available for characters who also have Plank Scaling... but I've both seen and done this. Lots of dots of INV: +Lots of BCs.By the way in your Armour thing, the Armour has the advantage when bought with NP as the Impervious also defeats AP. However, the Inv wins in play as you are paying for the 2nd dot onwards rather than the 3rd +.Ah, right. Armor needs to buy two dots to balance one for INV. Hmm.... if I were serious about shaving points on that one I'd drop Imperv and buy Hardbody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 It has always been my understanding that Invulnerability affects one type or category. So Broad category physical would be one power and Invulnerability Broad Category Energy are at least *meant* to be seperate powers. Up to you Rorx if you want to let him stack categories with Multiple extras. Lets break down the cost of doing so. If we allow Invuln the way Alex apparently has he gets all the three big categories of defense at mastery level no less in a single level 4 power. With xp this would let him go from 1 dot at chargen to 6 dots with 135 xp.If he had to buy them seperately with broad categories on the physical and energy and mastery we are talking 3 level 3 powers. more expensive in NP terms at the get go and to get all 3 from 1 dot to 6 would cost 315 xp. Considering everything I know about how its described in the book you're not supposed to be able to add an extra category after the broad but its your game Rorx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 All "three"? Mental powers isn't a BC. "Willpower resisted effects" would be, but I don't have it.If he had to buy them seperately with broad categories on the physical and energy and mastery we are talking 3 level 3 powers.Ah... no. We're not. I used 10 nova points but could generate the same effect with 8 and two powers. Because I got it tainted it'd cost one more nova point, but that's trivial. I could drop his willpower by one and he'd still work.I'm not trying to be divisive here and I'm very willing to redo this. Far as I can tell the cost of doing this differently (without BCs) is very slight and there are advantages to going that route.Obviously I disagree about one effect not being able to be described by multiple BCs, but that's a side note. The rules often need ST adjudication and this is an instance of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 All "three"? Mental powers isn't a BC. "Willpower resisted effects" would be, but I don't have it.read more carefully. I didn't say it was a BC. I said the 3 big categories which are mental, physical and energy, the 3 most likely forms of damage in this or any other game.Ah... no. We're not. I used 10 nova points but could generate the same effect with 8 and two powers. Because I got it tainted it'd cost one more nova point, but that's trivial. My point is, and I could be wrong, that you're not supposed to be able to stack multiple categories of invulnerability in one power buy. Normally you have to buy Invuln physical and energy separately. Its seems to be milking it a bit to take invulnerability mental with the broad category physical, since an extra is supposed to modify the base power and mental is not a subset of physical. IMHO you are chesses monkeying the system when we already have a ton of leeway with Q6+Mastery... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rorx Posted August 23, 2008 Author Share Posted August 23, 2008 Sorry Alex, but as far as I can see from the description of the power it should be 3 purchases of INV.Even if it weren't, I don't see how something like Physical BC, which normally is a lvl 2 + an Extra, could be added to your scheme for the cost of just one Extra?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 Even if it weren't, I don't see how something like Physical BC, which normally is a lvl 2 + an Extra, could be added to your scheme for the cost of just one Extra?!Technically BC is an extra. So mechanically there's nothing wrong with INV:Fire + BC:Physical.And yes I know you just ruled otherwise so I'll shut up now. ::blush Sorry Alex, but as far as I can see from the description of the power it should be 3 purchases of INV.Fair enough, it's minor re-write time. Like I said, not a serious issue.Ah... where are we supposed to send these things to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 Technically BC is an extra. So mechanically there's nothing wrong with INV:Fire + BC:Physical. ::blink That doesn't make any sense! How can an invulnerability tro energy expand into Physical...that's just silly! ::huh ::confused Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finbar Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 I would have ruled against the INV: Fire+BC: Physical just as I would have any INV: Whatever +BC. Doesn't making it into a broad category eliminate the original INV?FR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 That is the idea as I understood it. The BC extra redefines the invulnerability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 ::blink That doesn't make any sense! How can an invulnerability to [fire] expand into Physical...that's just silly! ::huh ::confusedThe Human Torch or a Fire Elemental have a pretty good lock on it I think. Immune to fire and bullets or knives just go right through or melt before they hit.And this is a moot point, ST has spoken, I'll redo it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 That would be Density Decrease in Abby Alex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rorx Posted August 24, 2008 Author Share Posted August 24, 2008 The Human Torch or a Fire Elemental have a pretty good lock on it I think. Immune to fire and bullets or knives just go right through or melt before they hit.That's just a theme that justifies having the two INV in the first place, not one power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted August 24, 2008 Share Posted August 24, 2008 That would be Density Decrease in Abby Alex.That's a different option, sure. But it's only truly viable if you're willing to live with your own powers being damage reduced (2 dots) or damage free (3 dots).Another alternative (requirement here) would be to purchase both INV:Fire and INV:BC:Physical. But if it's an issue of theme then he's got it.EDIT: And it's a dead issue guys, I'm done with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted August 24, 2008 Share Posted August 24, 2008 That's a different option, sure. But it's only truly viable if you're willing to live with your own powers being damage reduced (2 dots) or damage free (3 dots).Wanted to note here that in pretty much every game I have seen including ItB, even though it is not explicit in the RAW, that only Physical attacks are dampened at DD 3. Energy attacks still work, hence the utility of the power to simulate energy forms. Really what should have been done is to have phasing and DD split into 2 powers, since as is if you want to be a bodymorph: gas type character you should have the invuln to physucal attacks of DD3 but should not be able to phase though solid objects. One of many glitches Im afraid but easy to house rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted August 24, 2008 Share Posted August 24, 2008 Wanted to note here that in pretty much every game I have seen including ItB...I think the issue actually came up with Fahrenheit and she had to reduce her DD in order to be able to kill baselines with her energy stuff. Wraith on the other hand has 5 dots, which is a more debatable issue. Really what should have been done is to have phasing and DD split into 2 powers, Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted August 24, 2008 Share Posted August 24, 2008 Hmmm. I had thought Farenheit had DD 3 Bodymorph + Agg Immolate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackson Creed Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 Okay a quick query here. Invulnerability: Mental works exactly like Psychic Shield 3 (+6 successes to Willpower rolls to resist Mental effects like Telepathy, Dominate etc.). Psychic Shield states that it does not effect emotion affecting powers and most Mega Socials.Invulnerability (Broad Catagory: Willpower) would give +6 successes to Willpower rolls to resist all mind affecting powers, mental and social.Correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rorx Posted August 25, 2008 Author Share Posted August 25, 2008 I think so, but I'm not certain about the Mega-Socials bit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 Hmmm. I had thought Farenheit had DD 3 Bodymorph + Agg Immolate?I think the key word is *had*. I *think* she'd started with that then had to lower the DD.Correct?Close.P-Shield 3 gives +6 auto willpower *AND* it also gives 6 soak. So it double dips against Mental Blast and some effects of Mirage. Thus NP for NP, P-Shield is stronger because it double dips.INV: BC: Willpower... isn't something that comes up a lot.IMHO probably this would mean "Willpower resisted powers/effects" and would cover (as you said the mental or emotional powers). The problem is that sometimes Mega-Socials are overt and sometimes they're just adding to normal skills, and it's insanely hard to see where one begins and the other ends.Example: A Mega-Social Babe wants to sleep with you.If she's using Emotional Manipulation (the power), then IMHO your INV bounces the EM, but not the actual skill roll.Does she get Mega-Dice to add to that skill roll...? It's an ST call but I'd allow it. She really is super-humanly hot.Does she get Mega-Enhancements to add in there...? Maybe, maybe not. I'd say the more brutal enhancements are covered, but it's ST call, case by case on whether something works or doesn't. Good rule of thumb is whether or not the character (not the player) would *want* the effect to work.It's hard to see how humans remain sane and still have INV:Socials, we're not robots and part of the human condition is other people can influence us.Personally I'd be happy to have INV:Willpower work against the misc Willpower resisted powers out there. Emotional Manip, TimeStop, Q-Vampire, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 Invuln: Mental gives the soak too Alex...reread carefully.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 Invulnerability: (page 206) "Each dot in the power adds six soak when resisting damage from that kind of attack, even if the attack is aggravated. In the case of mental powers such as Domination, each level of Invulnerability provides six extra successes to any Willpower roll to resist the power's effect"Contrast that with...Psychic Shield: (page 215) "Each dot grants two extra successes to any roll to resist mental powers. If the power causes damage, like Mental Blast, then Psychic Shield also provides two extra soak per dot."Edit: P-Shield double dips, Inv doesn't. But it doesn't need to, 6 auto-willpower per dot will shut down Mental-Blast pretty quick, even if it's Aggravated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 we have always taken it to mean that Mental Invuln is a juiced version of psi shield...a level 2 power should be more than equal to a level 1... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 we have always taken it to mean that Mental Invuln is a juiced version of psi shield...a level 2 power should be more than equal to a level 1...Inv can be increased to 12 auto succ for 5 exp.You can't do the same with P-Shield without first getting Q6. Even getting the 4th dot costs 12 exp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackson Creed Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 Okay, perhaps Invulnerability: Willpower is a bit broad for what I'm after.Perhaps Invulnerability: (Broad Catagory: Mental and Empathic) would be closer to the mark.You would gain the standard +6 successes to resist Telepathy, Domination, Psi Blast etc. (not to mention Telepathy Modes of Mindshare and Psychbending) that Inv: Mental gives. In addition, you get +6 successes to resist powers and effects that influence your emotions (such as Empathic Manipulation, the Psionic Modes of Empathy and certain Mentasis powers, and directly emotion manipulating Mega Social enhancements).To define directly emotion affecting Mega Social enhancements: enhancements that directly influence the mind or emotions of a character (eg. Awe Inspiring, Face of Terror, First Impression, Hypnotic Gaze, Persuader, The Voice, Commanding Presence, Dreadful Mein, Natural Agitator and Soothe). Enhancements that rely on sensing information from the target and acting on it to gain an advantage are not blocked by the Social Invulnerability (eg. Lie Detector, Natural Empath, Trickster, Seductive Looks, Seductive). However, those enhancements gain information, albeit at an instinctual, subconscious level, from the mind of the target... which should be resisted by the Mental Invulnerability.In essence, this Invulnerability would give resistance against all Mega Attribute enhancements that gather information from, or directly influence, empathically or otherwise, the targets mind (so there is no bonus versus Copycat or Appearance Alteration). Of course, the Nova using the Mega social gets to use all the relevent Attribute, Skill and Mega Attribute dice, versus a Willpower roll + Invulnerability auto successes (so resistance may not be entirely effective). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heru Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 Its mentioned in another thread, but since this is a power thread I will post it here. I wish to have the Warp Power, but I wanted to have it as part of the Spatial Manipulation suite power. Warp is a level 3 power on its own, and the Spatial Manipulation is also Level 3. Rorx said that I can have teleport but not Warp as a technique, due to the concept that a technique should not be as powerful as the group power itself. And that is fine as a ruling.He also made a question that I could have warp as a technique if we could come up with a way to reduce its overall power level. To level 2.A question that I have is that wouldn't techniques be capable of being relatively quite powerful. That couldn't (in general) a level 3 power be a technique or a technique with prerequisites beyond what the generic quantum minimum is for the power. I know that there are techniques in the Players Guide that have prerequisites above the normal quantum limit. If that is true, in general, wouldn't that mean that techniques equal to or a little beyond the basic level of the suite power could be an available power. My other question is since the book itself says that its up to an ST if warp and teleport can be techniques, has anybody here been a ST and allowed that. I'm curious on the ramifications of allowing warp and teleport into Spatial Manipulation.I should note, that even when I am in a game as a player a part of me looks at the game from the point of view of an ST, which is what I am most of the time. So my questions are not questioning the ruling of the ST in this game, its just trying to figure the answer out in general. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heru Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 Many games and many STs allow a free enhancement for each level of a mega-attribute a character has (so if you have Mega-Intelligence 3 you have three free enhancements). I know that this is a house rule and I know that house rules do not automatically come into play, but I want to ask if that is how you are doing it. I do it that way in every Aberrant game that I have run, so my first response is to do it here, which is why I am asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rorx Posted September 7, 2008 Author Share Posted September 7, 2008 Sorry Heru, I'll stick to the rules as printed, just the one free enhancement total.If nothing else if I changed it now, everyNova else would be dashing off to change their characters, which would be a pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heru Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 Sorry Heru, I'll stick to the rules as printed, just the one free enhancement total.If nothing else if I changed it now, everyNova else would be dashing off to change their characters, which would be a pain.Well, that is good to know. It means I have to once again refocus my power list, but thats not too bad, as I don't even have that many powers listed yet. I know I keep saying that, but its a true problem right now. A part of me wishes I could just say screw the mechanics and write free form, because that sorts of things I can do pretty easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heru Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 I'm curious about something. Those players that have given their novas Quantum 6, which costs 25 nova points, how many quantum powers do you guys have. I'm finding that 60 nova points doesn't seem to spread out that much in practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metaphysician Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 For a Level 2 version of Warp: same mechanics, but not Quantum autosux. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 I'm curious about something. Those players that have given their novas Quantum 6, which costs 25 nova points, how many quantum powers do you guys have. I'm finding that 60 nova points doesn't seem to spread out that much in practice. Your best bet is to take 10 flaws and then spend 21 Bonus points to get yourself to Q4. Then it would only be 10 points to q6. 6 points for me but I took 4 Taint for my savings.I have a total of 8 dots spread through 4 different Mega Atts, and a total of 7 quantum powers, though 4 of them are linked together to represent a single power. Very specialized character with tons of soak and the ability to reflect attacks, a very dangerous immolate, supersonic capable flight with a lot of maneuverabilty, rediculous strength with even more rediculous knockback, and the twist that he is seriously mega beautiful to the point where its actualy a problem (6 auto sux on seduction rolls made automatically by the ST to both men and women). With some extra points he has psychic shield and is practically immune to any kind of disruption, leeching, or vampirism.Also taint is my friend as well as Mastery: the big reason (along with multiple extras) to take Q6... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heru Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 Thanks Skylion, that is a lot of good ideas to think about. I am definitely going to use the flaws to get Quantum, thus saving nova points. And since there are like three aberrations I want having four or five Taint is not that bad a thing. At least I am still mostly human, hehe 7 Quantum powers, wow, you are better at spreading points out than I am. hehe I am having trouble just trying to get 2 or 3. I'm wondering, is there a way to take Aberrations as Flaws and thus get Bonus Points for it. Rather than taking them because of a Taint score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heru Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 Just a check to make sure I am write. In the Aberrant Player's Guide it mentions that a nova who takes Elemental Mastery is capable of using the techniques of Elemental Anima. That is being followed in this game, right. Also, is anybody else in the game taking Elemental Mastery? I'm thinking of using that as my main power power, that and Warp. Though I have yet to decide. Thinking hard now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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