Aberrant: Stepping from Eden - Power Check

[Rorx]

Ok, I'm going to try to run this joint Nova/Psion game, but I'm not an experienced Aberrant St and I don't have all the books, significantly the APG. And there is little chance of me getting it anytime soon. With that in mind I hope you guys don't mind me running some stuff I'm not sure of or not familiar with past you so I can get a better feeling for the Aberrant/Nova side of this.

The first thing is something I have already decided on, but I wanted to see what you all thought of it.

Limted Shapeshift: Only used to get Body Mods, reduced Lvl to 2, and (not relevant for this character) Q3?

[Alex Green]

Presumably as a maint power. Looks good.

[Rorx]

Presumably as a maint power. Looks good.

Hadn't thought of that, but yeah, as a form of Shapeshift it would be.

[metaphysician]

If anything that almost sounds like it should be worth more than that, in weakness. But yes, that's certainly sufficiently balanced.

[Rorx]

If anything that almost sounds like it should be worth more than that, in weakness. But yes, that's certainly sufficiently balanced.

I did wonder about lvl1 but since Body Mods are level 1 anyway I thought it unlikley to come down that much.

Or do you think I should leave it at Lvl 2 but improve it a tweak in duration or something?

[metaphysician]

Oh, well, its probably not that big a deal regardless. Its just that, doing only body mods basically means you lose 90% of Shapeshift's ability to buff attack, defense, and mobility. It comes down to a matter of opinion exactly how many weakness points this would be worth, though.

Just as an aside, this *does* still allow one extremely potent option: extra health levels. Those things are pure gold.

[Rorx]

Oh, well, its probably not that big a deal regardless. Its just that, doing only body mods basically means you lose 90% of Shapeshift's ability to buff attack, defense, and mobility. It comes down to a matter of opinion exactly how many weakness points this would be worth, though.

Just as an aside, this *does* still allow one extremely potent option: extra health levels. Those things are pure gold.

Yeah, part of the reason for doing this was to get around the PR problems of Sky's characters favourite form - a bit too mutant/Aberrant to be good PR for Eden NOVAs on a first tour of Earth space. Since they were virtually all from Body Mods rather than from aberrations they could easily have been turned off by going Dorm, but Sky felt that would be too vulnerable given the likely anti-Eden sentiment that could exist. Hence either a Bodymorph with those bodymods in or a Limited Shapeshift with all BodyMods was considered.

Would it still be reasonable with a reduced cost or extra duration at lvl2? After all the body mods themselves are normally permanant.

[Alex Green]

Just as an aside, this *does* still allow one extremely potent option: extra health levels. Those things are pure gold.

That would work well... unless it didn't.

Say he picks up 5 extra health levels (presumably we limit mods to 5 dots). He fights, he gets KO'ed, he loses his maint powers... and all 5 of those levels go with it, but the damage he took doesn't. Ouch.

And this isn't so much a weakened Shapeshift as it is a different power.

[Rorx]

That would work well... unless it didn't.

Say he picks up 5 extra health levels (presumably we limit mods to 5 dots). He fights, he gets KO'ed, he loses his maint powers... and all 5 of those levels go with it, but the damage he took doesn't. Ouch.

And this isn't so much a weakened Shapeshift as it is a different power.

So what would you suggest to improve it/make it workable?

[Alex Green]

It's pretty workable as it is. But if we're changing the Q-min, the level, and the effect, then we have a new power.

Different question for everyone: How does Mastery interact with Bodymorph?

Double the dots you're mimicing? Double the effect of those dots? I lean towards the first.

[metaphysician]

I would favor the first, as well. Though I wouldn't be averse to it being players choice: one dot of Bodymorph either gets you two dots regular powers, or one dot of Mastery power.

[Rorx]

It's pretty workable as it is. But if we're changing the Q-min, the level, and the effect, then we have a new power.

The change to Qmin was a big question mark, but everything else had been discussed.

Ignoring the Qmin, isn't the rest of it the normal process of applying weakness and strengths? We took Shapeshift, severely limited the sorts of powers it could replicate, and decided that the restrictions were enough tn justify lowering it a level. Was that not correct?

[Alex Green]

The change to Qmin was a big question mark, but everything else had been discussed.

Ignoring the Qmin, isn't the rest of it the normal process of applying weakness and strengths? We took Shapeshift, severely limited the sorts of powers it could replicate, and decided that the restrictions were enough tn justify lowering it a level. Was that not correct?

Ya, that's true.

I would favor the first, as well. Though I wouldn't be averse to it being players choice: one dot of Bodymorph either gets you two dots regular powers, or one dot of Mastery power.

Considering how long Mastered powers stay on I guess there's no reason not to do this... OK, I'm good.

[Alex Green]

Something I should probably toss out there before it comes up, can a level 3 power with a "free" extra have Mastery?

Considering you need Q7 before you can put a free extra on a level 4 power, I'd say no. This also leads to less powerful characters which is probably a good thing everything considered.

[SkyLion]

A level 3 power takes 2 extras to make it level 4. So if you buy the "free" one first (and you still have to pay for it) then it doesnt bump a level, but then Mastery automatically will. At least that is how it's done over at NPrime.

[Alex Green]

A level 3 power takes 2 extras to make it level 4. So if you buy the "free" one first (and you still have to pay for it) then it doesnt bump a level, but then Mastery automatically will. At least that is how it's done over at NPrime.

At that point you have a level 4 power with an extra.

[Rorx]

So with Q6 Sky is saying you could have a lvl3 with 2 extras, a lvl4, a lvl3 with Mastery, or a lvl 3 with 1 extra and Mastery?

By the way I assume Mastery requires you to have 5dots in the power?

I've heard a bit about an enhancement called Health, could someone with the correct book clarify what it does for me?

[SkyLion]

Alex the way you are saying is not how it works in any game I have seen. Since the first extra doesn't raise it Mastery only counts if you buy it first...think if you were buying with XP. For one take on how this works there is a rules thread in Middle Children of History that covers in detail. For example, my character Raijin had flight. With xp I bought RQC first which was "free" and then bought Mastery, which bumped it up to level 3. SO far that is the biggest consensus I have seen, and the most fair and balanced.

And Rorx, no, there is nothing saying that Mastery requires 5 dots, only Q 6 and that you pay NP/XP for the privilege.

[metaphysician]

I'd say "allow the extra extra", just remember that it does cost XP. If your worried about a particular combo, then give it an extra close look, and forbid it if you think it'll be problematic.

[Alex Green]

RE: Health

It subtracts your dots in M-Stamina from the toxicity of the disease/drug. No roll, no activation, and unless you have two levels, no choice. So Mox (tox 2 I think) has *no* effect on a nova with Health and MS2.

But this also means that Ebola's maximum, absolute worst effect, even if the nova botches, is going to be *less* because it's not a high tox effect any more.

By the way I assume Mastery requires you to have 5dots in the power?

I've seen this as a house rule, but the book only says Mastery requires Q6, and that it raises the underlying level of the base power by one.

So with Q6 Sky is saying you could have a lvl3 with 2 extras, a lvl4, a lvl3 with Mastery, or a lvl 3 with 1 extra and Mastery?

He is, but by definition a level 3 power with Mastery is a level 4 power. So a level 3 power with Mastery with an extra *is* a level 4 power with an extra.

[SkyLion]

Its an order of operations thing Alex. Mastery does say it automaticlly raises the power level by one but it doesn't speak or say anything to the fact of adding it to a power that already has an extra on it but hasn't been raised a level. So say I take Quantum Bolt L2 and I take the extra supercharge paying an extra 3 NP or 6 xp for it. Next I buy Reduced Quantum Cost which adds either 2 NP or 3 xp to the cost to make up the difference for what is now a Level 3 Power. Later on I buy Mastery which bumps it automaticlly to Level 4. This is not a Level 4 power with 3 extras because the initial extras only raised it by a level. Just like how at below Q6 I can take claws and add Armor piercing making it Level 2 and then aggravated making it level 3. Its not a level 3 power with two extras...those extras are absorbed into its level 3ness.

The part that gets me confused is the chart in the APG where it says at Q6 it takes 2 extras to go from Level 1 to 2, 2 to go from level 2 to 3, 2 to go from level 3 to 4 and no more extras allowed once you hit Level 4.

To me this suggests that if I start out with a level 1 power, I take 2 extras and it bumps to level 2. I would then have to take 2 more extras to bump it to level 3 and 2 more for 4, dicounting mastery extra of course which automatically bumps a level. So by this thinking if I start with a level 1 power I could have 6 extras or 5 and mastery, a power that started at level 2 would be able to have 4 extras or 3 and mastery before maxing out at level 4 and a level 3 starting power could have 2 extras or 1 plus mastery.

However the fine mods over at MCoH have a different interpretation that says at Q6 you only get one "free" extra regardless and that all others bump a level accordingly and if you take Mastery on a level 3 power and it bumps directly to level 4 you forfeit your ability to take a free extra on it. They have created their own revised chart to reflect this.

[Alex Green]

Its an order of operations thing Alex. Mastery does say it automaticlly raises the power level by one but it doesn't speak or say anything to the fact of adding it to a power that already has an extra on it but hasn't been raised a level.

Let's take Q-Bolt. It's a level 2 power. With Burning it's a level 2 power with an extra (whether this is level 2 or 3 depends on your Q level, which can change).

With Mastery tacked on that it's now a level 3 power with an extra (QB+Mastery + Burning), or it's a level 2 power with Mastery with an extra.

But if you try doing that with Disin (a level 3 power), then what you end up with Disin+Mastery+Burning. How could that *not* be a level 4 power with an extra? Or if you prefer, a level 3 power with Mastery with an extra (same thing).

Later on I buy Mastery which bumps it automaticlly to Level 4. This is not a Level 4 power with 3 extras because the initial extras only raised it by a level.

Q-Bolt+Mastery is a level 3 power (Mastery raises the underlying power's level). You can have one free extra on top of that, but your second raises it a level (to four), and your 3rd extra raises it to level 5. And you can't have that so we reverse the order of operations and ax the last steps until you have a legal power.

The part that gets me confused is the chart in the APG where it says at Q6 it takes 2 extras to go from Level 1 to 2, 2 to go from level 2 to 3, 2 to go from level 3 to 4 and no more extras allowed once you hit Level 4.

That's a mis-read. You get X free extras on the base power (depending on what the base power is), you don't get Y more after you hit the next level. Saying otherwise is like saying you can have X+Y (plus whatever) extras on a power.

At Q6

Level 2: Q-Bolt (base power)

Level 2: Q-Bolt + Burning (level 2 + extra (free))

Level 3: Q-Bolt + Burning + RQC (level 2 + extra (free) + extra)

Level 4: Q-Bolt + Burning + RQC + AP (level 2 + extra (free) + 2 extras)

Mastery is different because it raises the underlying level of the base power.

At Q6

Level 3: Q-Bolt+Mastery

Level 3: Q-Bolt+Mastery + Burning (level 3 + extra (free))

Level 4: Q-Bolt+Mastery + Burning + RQC (level 3 + extra (free) + 1 extra)

Note "order of operation" simply doesn't matter. According to the book, a level 4 power with an extra isn't possible at Q6.

A level 3 power with an extra *isn't* the same as a level 3 power. If it were then we could add *any* number of powers onto that level 3 power and it'd still stay level 3.

[SkyLion]

But if you try doing that with Disin (a level 3 power), then what you end up with Disin+Mastery+Burning. How could that *not* be a level 4 power with an extra? Or if you prefer, a level 3 power with Mastery with an extra (same thing).

because (and especially if you bought the burning first and/or with XP) thw first extra didnt raise the power. otherwise you are saying that my character Raijin is illegal since he has Elemntal Mastery+RQC+Mastery. Since I had a team of mods and players that didnt scream foul I would guess my interp is the correct one. Sorry Alex youre not going to convince me!

[Alex Green]

because (and especially if you bought the burning first and/or with XP) thw first extra didnt raise the power.

So Disin+Burning is *only* a level 3 power, and *not* a level 3 power with an extra?

otherwise you are saying that my character Raijin is illegal...

Not "illegal", just not according to the book. House rules override the the book. It's more important everyone have the same rules than it is the rules be by the book.

[metaphysician]

IMO, the key point of distinction is whether or not the "always raises the level" is meant to mean that Mastery supercedes the "free extras" rule, or merely to prevent you from buying Mastery *as* a free extra. Since suddenly adding Mastery to a ton of stuff for 5-9 XP each is *way* more unbalancing than allowing one more extra on top of the 1-3 otherwise allowed, I tend to favor the latter interpretation.

Slight aside, but I'd tend to worry more about the Level 2 powers, than the Level 3 powers, in light of this debate. Level 3 powers, well, most of them are suite powers, and for suites, there aren't as many valid ( or meaningful ) extras, aside from RQC. So, the most likely result of allowing free extras + mastery is "I can use my elemental anima at will".

Level 2 powers, OTOH, being more specialized, also tend to allow more useful extras. Quantum Bolt alone, I can think of some hilariously nasty combos of extras. Notably, the Aggravated extra starts looking seriously unbalanced when you can stick it and three others on a Quantum Bolt. Armor Piercing should also get the hairy eyeball, with or without Mastery. After all, at Q6, you could potentially stack AP on a quantum bolt four times.

[Alex Green]

IMO, the key point of distinction is whether or not the "always raises the level" is meant to mean that Mastery supercedes the "free extras" rule, or merely to prevent you from buying Mastery *as* a free extra...

Doing the former also does the later, and also imposes one set of rules for everyone.

Slight aside, but I'd tend to worry more about the Level 2 powers, than the Level 3 powers, in light of this debate. Level 3 powers, well, most of them are suite powers, and for suites, there aren't as many valid ( or meaningful ) extras, aside from RQC. So, the most likely result of allowing free extras + mastery is "I can use my elemental anima at will".

Most games are Q5 and below, so the whole idea of putting extras on level 3 powers doesn't come up much. There are lots of extras that get nasty with the L3's in combo with Mastery.

Clone + Mastery + Ranged (Create your guy anywhere in the city)

Gravity Manip + Mastery + Extended Range (move or tear apart the moon... I'm serious).

Any suite power's Storm + Mastery + MIRV (your area of effect *is* your range).

Since all suite powers let you make up techniques as you go along, Extended Range gets *very* obnoxious quite easily. One of the keys is that Mastery lets you pretty much ignore the range penalties because your succ will be doubled.

For example with Cyber-K + Mastery you can try to hack into any computer in a city. With Extended Range on top of that you can camp out on the moon and do any computer on the half of the Earth facing the moon.

With Elemental Mastery: Fire + Mastery + Extended Range you could camp out on the moon and roast *every* *single* *city* on half the planet in less than an hour.

There's a reason why this sort of thing is supposed to require Q7.

After all, at Q6, you could potentially stack AP on a quantum bolt four times.

I'd claim only three times, and yes, you need to be careful with these things.

[SkyLion]

So Disin+Burning is *only* a level 3 power, and *not* a level 3 power with an extra?

Exactly. A power with an extra raises a powers level and the rules state that it also makes it a "new" power. Claws AP is an L2 power as the rules explicitly state not a "level 1 power with an extra."

IMO, the key point of distinction is whether or not the "always raises the level" is meant to mean that Mastery supercedes the "free extras" rule, or merely to prevent you from buying Mastery *as* a free extra.

Mastery always raises the power a level and never counts as "free." If you buy it with xp though on an L3 power that already has a "free" extra on it it is fair game, since that power is still a level 3 power. Nuff said.

Since all suite powers let you make up techniques as you go along, Extended Range gets *very* obnoxious quite easily. One of the keys is that Mastery lets you pretty much ignore the range penalties because your succ will be doubled.

This is both wrong and right. its right in the sense that the range extra makes everything line of sight, so you are basically limited by your perception/mega perception.

However you make a grevious error in the second part Mastery DOES NOT "double your successes." It double the effect of the successes you do get. VERY IMPORTANAT DISTINCTION hence the caps.

stack AP on a quantum bolt four times.

There is nothing in the rules that says you can stack AP multiple times for multiple effects. Were I the ST Id say no, otherwise you run into the champions system arms race of people buying multiple levels of hardened to counteract multiple levels of AP.

[Rorx]

House Rule #1: No stacking of AP or similar or specific defences for same. If you want to get around someones defences use a combination of different things not the same thing multiple times.

Now I just have to figure out the lvl 3 + Master + 'free' extra argument enough to make a decision.... don't hold your breath...::biggrin

[Alex Green]

Exactly. A power with an extra raises a powers level and the rules state that it also makes it a "new" power. Claws AP is an L2 power as the rules explicitly state not a "level 1 power with an extra."

You mean "the pre-Q6 rules". Post Q6, if we follow that line of reasoning to it's conclusion, with Q6, it's possible to put *any* number of free extras on a L3 power (other than Mastery). After all, Disin+Burning isn't an "L3+Extra", it's just "L3". And with Q6 you can put an extra on an L3 without raising it's level. Then you can repeat the process.

This is both wrong and right. its right in the sense that the range extra makes everything line of sight, so you are basically limited by your perception/mega perception.

You can see the Earth from the moon just fine. It's bigger so you can see it even better than we can the moon. Add in a telescope (or telescopic vision) and its trivial.

However you make a grevious error in the second part Mastery DOES NOT "double your successes." It double the effect of the successes you do get. VERY IMPORTANAT DISTINCTION hence the caps.

Yes and no. Yes, it doesn't double your succ on most powers. But my example was with Cyber-K, that's a resisted roll. The resisted powers, like the others, have their effect doubled... which means their succ doubled.

There is nothing in the rules that says you can stack AP multiple times for multiple effects.

Mechanically there's nothing that stops it. In theory you could even do it with Claws at Q1.

And no, I'm not opposed to having a house rule against it. Otherwise in theory you could get Claws+AP(L1)+AP(L2)+AP(L3)+Mastery and effectively have Claws+APx6. So every succ reduces soak by 12 (ouch).

...otherwise you run into the champions system arms race of people buying multiple levels of hardened to counteract multiple levels of AP.

One level of Impervious negates them all, even against Mastery.

[metaphysician]

Actually, if AP is effected by the "two times effect" element of Mastery. . .

There's a reason I *totally* agree with my GM, in just house ruling AP out of existence.

[Alex Green]

Actually, if AP is effected by the "two times effect" element of Mastery. . .

Mechanically there's no reason it shouldn't be.

Similarly "Burning" would have it's duration doubled (I *think*).

MIRV & Ranged would be unchanged.

Ditto Agg, it either works or it doesn't (twice zero isn't impressive).

Sustained... I guess wouldn't be changed.

Some of "Homing" would be doubled,

[SkyLion]

You mean "the pre-Q6 rules". Post Q6, if we follow that line of reasoning to it's conclusion, with Q6, it's possible to put *any* number of free extras on a L3 power (other than Mastery). After all, Disin+Burning isn't an "L3+Extra", it's just "L3". And with Q6 you can put an extra on an L3 without raising it's level. Then you can repeat the process.

Not quite Alex. Your argument here is irritating and seems mostly just for the sake of arguing. Q6, level 3 power. 2 extras to "raise" it. 1st extra, 5 nova points. Second Extra: 2 Nova points. Congratualtions you have a level 4 power. If your first extra was mastery, its a level 4 power, too bad youre SOL and cant buy a second one. If you were smart enough to buy the free extra first you have an L3 power still and you still get another extra to hit Q4. Please dont be dense because I *know* you are smart!

You can see the Earth from the moon just fine. It's bigger so you can see it even better than we can the moon. Add in a telescope (or telescopic vision) and its trivial.

So? Whats your point? Q Bolt+range+ area+ mastey is a big level 4 power and yeah youre going to be nuking cities. Thats what happens when you get Q6 godlings running around in the Aberrant War. You didn't think China was threatening to nuke the whole planet for no reason did you?

Yes and no. Yes, it doesn't double your succ on most powers. But my example was with Cyber-K, that's a resisted roll. The resisted powers, like the others, have their effect doubled... which means their succ doubled.

Good point....however its still the EFFECT that gets doubled...meaning only the successes left over after the resistance roll get doubled. You dont get to double dip and you dont double your dice before you roll. Think of effect as successesx2. Example: I have Mental Bolt Mastery. I roll 10 successes. 4 are dropped from the users psi shield and another 3 from a willpower roll. the remaining 3 successes (the "effect" of the dice roll) are then doubled to 6. 4 get soaked by the psi shield and the target takes 2 Bashing damage.

Mechanically there's nothing that stops it. In theory you could even do it with Claws at Q1.

There are some extras that say you can take them multiple times and it lists the effect of that. AP has no such listing. Furthermore the ST has spoken... ::glare

Actually, if AP is effected by the "two times effect" element of Mastery. . .

I could actually see this working like this, since the AP is now a part of the "effect" of the power and is based off your activation/strike roll. So at most each success cuts through 4 soak.

Similarly "Burning" would have it's duration doubled (I *think*).

Not quite. Duration isnt doubled. Its actually worse...duration changes from turn to hours or scenes... ::ohmy

[metaphysician]

Except Burning isn't really defined as a duration, its more an effect of the power. That combined with sheer heinous brokenness leads me to conclude it merely doubles.

And the real broken-ness with the Agg extra is now, you can suddenly stack a lot more extras on that Q-Bolt or Immolate. Even using the more restricted interp of the Mastery rules, which is really more useful, Disintegrate + Mastery, or Q-Bolt + Mastery + Agg + any other extra?

[SkyLion]

Ha! Yeah I recently sumbitted a character to a Q6 game (MCH) witha single dot of Disintegrate+Mastery and it was summarily banned as an available option for any character. Guess they didn't want Instant Death wandering around...

EDIT: though to be fair it was the most evil character I have ever concieved with taint 8 and such fun Aberrations as, black thumb, sadistic, sheer hideousness and a special sweet tooth for eating small children... ::happy

[Rorx]

Ok, I've now got a copy of APG to see it for myself and I can see both of Alex and Skylion are saying.

The Table in question goes something like;

Q6

Power LVL No of Extras to bump it a level

1 2

2 2

3 2

4 1

5 NA for Q6

It IS an order of purchase thing.

If you had a LVL 3 power and bought Mastery it would be a LVL4 power and as high as you could go.

If you had a LVL3 and purchased an Extra, thenlater on took Mastery it WOULD effectively be a LVL4 with an Extra, which is equivalent of a LVL5 and normally disallowed.

However I see nothing in the book that even suggests that you are banned from taking Mastery if you already have an Extra on a Lvl 3. So I will allow it - under supervision.

[Alex Green]

Not quite Alex. Your argument here is irritating and seems mostly just for the sake of arguing....

My point was that we *do* keep track of extras. We have to.

So? Whats your point? Q Bolt+range+ area+ mastey is a big level 4 power and yeah youre going to be nuking cities.

There aren't that many people around with Q-Bolt + Area. The only purpose or use for that monster is to nuke cities.

But there are lots of people around with Elemental Mastery. And there's lots of reasons to get Increased Range & Mastery, and it has lots of things it can do other than taking out cities.

Good point....however its still the EFFECT that gets doubled...meaning only the successes left over after the resistance roll get doubled.

That's one way of doing it. But we don't do that with soakable powers. I.e. the defender doesn't get to apply his soak and we double the damage that gets through. What we do is double the damage that the Defender has to deal with.

I have Mental blast + Mastery. I get 6 succ.

I'm using it on someone who has 1 dot of Psi-Shield who gets 1 succ on his willpower roll.

What happens?

Option A: Double before Defenses

12 health level attack,

Willpower lowers that to 11

Psi-Shield lowers that to 9

Psi-Shield provides 2 soak so he takes 7 health levels.

Option B: Double After Defenses

6 health level attack,

Willpower lowers that to 5

Psi-Shield lowers that to 3

Psi-Shield provides 2 soak so he takes 1 health levels, doubled that's 2.

I suggest option A since it's how Q-Bolt would work.

There are some extras that say you can take them multiple times and it lists the effect of that.

No, there aren't. You're thinking of enhancements. Taking extras multiple times isn't covered by the rules, presumably because most powers can't have that happen in the core book.

Furthermore the ST has spoken... ::glare

Alex bows. ::biggrin

Not quite. Duration isnt doubled. Its actually worse...duration changes from turn to hours or scenes... ::ohmy

Burning isn't a duration effect. It's a power effect.

[Centimane]

Just some thoughts to (hopefully) help you guys with your Q6 + Mastery conundrum. Firstly, and regarding the question of how extras work with powers above the Q6 level, it looks as though (from what I'm reading) most everyone has already come to the same (and IMO, correct) conclusion concerning what it takes to raise a power's level, but I'll go ahead and lay it out for everyone, just the same.

So, to start, whether or not your PC is at Q6 or at Q3, when you purchase an extra for, let's say, a Level 1 power, it doesn't become "a level 2 power". It is still a Level 1 power "with an extra". On pg. 230 of the core book it states, "First, [taking an extra] raises the power's level by one for the purposes of the cost to purchase it with nova/experience points and power it with quantum points" (emphasis mine). This lets us know, in very clear terms, that the power is still a Level 1 power, but that since it has an extra we consider it to be a Level 2 power for the purposes of raising it or powering it - and for no other purposes (or at least, if there are other purposes, the core book fails to mention any of them).

This has an important impact when trying to decide how to interpret the chart shown on pg 120 of the APG. What we have is a "limit break", after which every extra added to a power of a given level raises it to the next level, exactly as if the nova were still at Q5 or lower. At Q6 you can add an extra to a Level 1, 2, or 3 power without it changing the cost of the power to raise/activate, but after you've added that extra, the power will raise by one level (for the purposes of raising it/powering it) for each extra you add thereafter. So you stack AP on your Claws: it's still treated as a Level 1 power for all purposes. Now you stack on Ranged: it's now treated as a Level 2 power, for the purposes mentioned above - just as if you were still at Q5 and had added an extra to you Claws. Now you stack on Agg: it's now treated as a Level 3 power - again, exactly as if you were still at Q5. And so on, and so on. You don't add the 2 extras to a Level 1 power, and then start treating it as a Level 2 power - you treat is a Level 1 power that has been "filled past capacity" so to speak, and that will now increase in cost from that point on.

At Q7 you can add 2 extras to a L1 power, and 1 extra to an L2, 3, or 4 power in this manner. At Q8, 3 extras to an L1, 2 to an L2, and 1 extra to an L3 or 4 power. The progression should be fairly obvious by now, so I won't belabor it.

For a further (and oft-overlooked) explanation of how this works, see the example listed at the very same grey sidebar that the Q6+ Extras Chart is found in, and notice the example character's Level progression while stacking extras onto Biolumination, and how their Q-Level affects that.

Now, as for the question of how to apply Mastery in combination with normal Extras; well, it's just a matter of what the ST wants, and the order of progression. As has already been established, no Extra literally raises the power's Level - they only raise the level for the purposes of calculating NP/Exp costs, and QP activation costs. It is also stated clearly that Mastery always raises a power's 'effective' level in this manner, no matter what. And it is, at this point, that we wind up with two possible interpretations of the situation.

1) Mastery only raises the 'effective' level of a power, irregardless of whether the nova has taken any other Extras for that power or not. In this case, we're still dealing with a Level 1 power that has 1 Extra on it, but that we're treating as 'effectively' being an L2 power since the Extra it has is Mastery. Now, the chart says that we wouldn't normally start counting it as being raised by one level per Extra until the power has 2 or more Extras stacked on it. This means that, despite it having Mastery on it, we could still stack an extra onto the power without effectively raising its Level by 1! In this interpretation, the order of purchase doesn't affect whether the power 'raises in level' or not.

2) Mastery doesn't raise the 'effective' level of a power, it raises the actual level of a power. In this case the power really is a power of the next level up. It isn't a Level 1 power with an Extra, it's a Level 2 power (with an Extra) in all senses of the word. Alternately, we could simply say that putting Mastery on a power means that we have to move the power up one place on the Extra chart, and never mind whether it's "really" or "effectively" a power of the next higher level. In either case, this would mean that putting Mastery on a L1 power would mean that putting any more Extras on it would further raise it by one Level per Extra. This is the interpretation most often used, and this is the interpretation that causes the "order of purchase" problems (whereas the first example doesn't have that problem).

Whether we go with the "it raises the power's actual level" interpretation, or the "we always look at the component parts, not the order in which they were purchased" interpretation is, in the end, for the ST to decide. Personally, I have no problems with either, as they both have inherant problems regarding game-balance and/or fairness (Mastery isn't well-defined enough by the WW folks for us to avoid these problems entirely, no matter how we interpret things).

[SkyLion]

No, there aren't. You're thinking of enhancements. Taking extras multiple times isn't covered by the rules, presumably because most powers can't have that happen in the core book.

I can think of at least one: Reflexive.

[Alex Green]

Thank you Cottus.

I can think of at least one: Reflexive.

Reflexive was introduced with Q6+, so multiples was possible.

But if multiples are possible, then Increased Range, Increased Duration, and RQC should/would presumably be allowed multiple times since their effect would be obvious.

[metaphysician]

I have no problem with multiples, per se. I just think AP would be a major, major unbalanced factor, as it functionally is the same as an increase in damage. Allowing it two, or four, times, equals one really *big* increase in damage. You'd either have to give everybody Impervious if you expect them to survive combat, or you need to give them such ridiculous soak that no one else can hurt them.

In fact, the real problem with AP is that it is the only extra that adds to the raw firepower of an attack, as opposed to modifying the parameters of the power or adding utility. The only other such extras are Supercharged, and Mastery. Mastery, natch, is its own thing, and Supercharged. . . kind of compared poorly; assuming Q5 or lower, Supercharged's maximum additional damage ( +10B/L at 5 dots ), compares evenly with about the minimum extra damage you can expect AP to add ( -10 soak at 5 attack sux ). AP is negated by Impervious, yeah, but Supercharged adds +3 qp cost and 1 health level of damage per attack. And AP can be attached to a wider variety of powers, can be double stacked on Claws, *can functionally add damage to strength attacks*, and can entirely provide more than -10 soak if you make a high dex build.