Aberrant RPG - Molecular Manipulation

[Rorx]

Looking over Molecular Manipulation recently I was struck by the Alteration or Change power amongst the suite has a set duration. I can see how that would be the case for Matter Creation when you create an object from nothing it will go back to nothing when you stop feeding the energy in, but with the Alteration of matter it has been moved from one stable state to another stable state by your input of energy. Where does it then get the energy to revert to its orginal form, and why should it bother? This contradicts the Shape power of the suite where things stay the same, and is less useful/powerful than the Psion version of this power in Quantkinetics.

So should it revert back to its original material/form or stay in the new (stable) one?

[Alex Green]

It'd be just as unstable as with MC. In theory you could turn a 1 lb object into a 50 lb object.

As for errata, the one I'd House Rule in is the soak of objects facing the "Destruction" technique is Zero unless they can soak Aggravated damage, it's a Disin effect after all.

[metaphysician]

I'd probably eratta Shape Alteration though. It effects way, way too little matter.

[BlueNinja]

One errata I'd like to add to Molecular Manipulation is a technique for changing the state of matter - such as condensing water out of the atmosphere to form ice. Temperature-changing stuff, not of the area, but of a single substance.

[SkyLion]

Blue Ninja: You will find what you seek on page 112 of the APG. It lists the phase change and plasma conversion abilities under Elemental Mastery (Though they seem more the purview of Anima as well...).

[BlueNinja]

Yes, I know they're under Elemental. But not under Molec Manip. It makes no sense to me that I can change a wooden chair into a gold brick - but I can't change the steam in a sauna into a block of ice. The second is by far the simpler thing to do, but by the rules, Molec Manip cannot affect gases in any way - which is somewhat retarded.

[Rorx]

Alex, I take your point about increasing the mass of objects, I had been thinking more of a straight conversion - 1lb of steel for 1lb of butter (does wonders for someones gun!). ::sly

BlueNinja, Molecular Manipulation only works to/from solids and liquids. Presumably they don't want you changing air into an object as that is effectively the same as Matter Creation. Having said that you could take the Destruction power of the suite as converting the material into a gas - as Alex says, practically a Disintegration for only inorganics.

Metaphyician - how about using the Mass/Success table from Matter Creation as the powers seem vaquely related. Indeed the character in question will probably work to pick up Matter Creation in the future. ::smile

[Alex Green]

...by the rules, Molec Manip cannot affect gases in any way...

If it does then it steps on the toes of Matter Creation pretty heavily.

And the Shield tech is a gas effecting one... and it's only gas effecting one... for that reason.

[SkyLion]

I would suggest then making molecular manip Q4 and Matter Creation Q 5 and allow techniques from both. Similar to Elemental anima and mastery

[BlueNinja]

My point is that it's ridiculous that you can use Molec Manip to turn a chair into a block of dry ice - which will then sublimate into CO2 gas - but you can't do the opposite. Using Molec Manip to turn a gas into something useful (you know, what Matter Creation does) should be a two-step process. Not to mention, there are several times I can think of where Matter Creation would be far more useful - in a vacuum, or in someplace under pressure, where changing the states of matter inside would be dangerous.

Ok, I'll be back to this conversation next month. ::laugh

[Rorx]

SkyLion, at the moment Matter Creation is not a suite of powers just the single effect, while Molecular manipulation does a host of things, so I'm not sure that your suggestion of altering the Q levels and making them both suites works. In addition (from memory, so probably wrong ::biggrin ), they are both Q5 as they are at the moment.

Alex, had another look and you can't change the size you are dealing with by as much as we both thought. It is only by 20% per extra success, so need 5 extra successes to double the size of something. The Shape effect is 10kg per success, so may be thats what you had in mind?

Since it works on liquids does that mean that you could run a bowl of water, create (with enough engineering skill and successes) a gun and some ammo, shot someone and then revert the material back to water to leave no murder weapon, and no bullet. Just a damp sink, and a little extra water in the wound. ::sly

[Alex Green]

A wood chair into a gold chair drastically increases it's weight.

And making something *only* 20% larger or smaller doesn't mean much when there's no limit on how much you can effect. If you want a larger effect you just pick a larger object.

The whole idea of controlling "molecules" allowing the transmutation of elements strikes me as a bit wrong. Move them around, sure, but not change them. That's probably the most unbalanced thing and the reason why it needs a duration.

[Rorx]

Yep, I agree with all that.

But it is still weaker than the equivalent Psion powers under Quantakinetics, and Aberrants are generally meant to be more powerful, aren't they? ::biggrin

[Rorx]

Having re-read it again, what's the point of the Shape Technique? You can already change the shape of something with no mass limit with the Alteration Tech, so why bother with the Shape one that limits you more?

Also most of the techniques have a mix up in what rolls are being made between the initial table and the text, the table will say dex, or man or wits and then during the text it will refer to an Int based roll, which should you go with the table or the text?

[Alex Green]

The purpose its that it's Perm. So if you repair or break something it's not a maint effect.

[metaphysician]

Yep, though I still think it should use the Matter Creation mass progression rather than the straight 10 kg per sux.

[Alex Green]

Yep, though I still think it should use the Matter Creation mass progression rather than the straight 10 kg per sux.

10 kg per succ isn't bad since you can apply it to parts of things. Fix the actual part of the engine that's broken, make a 10kg hole in the bank vault.

[Rorx]

Alex, my bad, missed the duration mention on the Shape technique. ::brick

[i must catch up on my sleep someday, probably after both my girls have grown up and left home! ::laugh ]

Looks like you use the Alteration tech when there is something large you need to do, or when you need to create something, but it will revert back to it's original shape/material/size after Molecular Manipulation hours. The Shape tech is used when you have the correct material and only need a moderate size object, or you are effecting repairs and so can target the mass/volume of the object you wish to effect, and the results are permanant.

Example 1. Use Alteration to create a man-size figure from a building or the ground, to then animate as a temporary thug/henchman.

Example 2. Assuming your Engineering (Armaments) or Firearms skill is up to it, reach down to the ground and pull up out of it a fully charged Laser with powerpacks?

Example 3. Shape a piece of sculpture from a block of marble (using Art+Molecular Manipulation, rather than the more common Engineering).

Do these sound valid examples?

[Alex Green]

EX #1

Works.

EX #2

Presumably you have the same limits on damage that MC has, but otherwise good.

RE: #3

I'd think that sort of thing always uses Art and not Engineering, but otherwise good.

[Rorx]

#2: Nope, there is no mention of any limits on what you can produce, as long as you have the skills to make whatever rolls are demanded by the ST. However, I wouldn't allow that example myself, if they could create the powerpacks they would be empty and need charging. Although they could be physically created, I think creating them in a charged condition is going to be a sight hard! ::laugh

#3: similarly Art would be used for forgeries etc I assume. Use the Shape technique to move the ink around on documentation so that blank ones appear filled in (although perhaps slightly paler or fainter than normal), or to change the names on the forms/ID's etc.

If the Destruction tech is the equivalent of Disintegrate then surely a materials soak would only protect it if it counted against Aggravated damage, and I can't think of a normal material that would be in that situation. On the other hand I suppose some Novatech/Gadgets might be protected in that way.

[Alex Green]

If the Destruction tech is the equivalent of Disintegrate then surely a materials soak would only protect it if it counted against Aggravated damage, and I can't think of a normal material that would be in that situation. On the other hand I suppose some Novatech/Gadgets might be protected in that way.

Nova tech, attuned objects, alien tech, or ST rulings. The point is that you should need something more than a mundane Steel Bar to resist this effect. The effect is only doing Q+D levels of damage and it's supposed to be a hit below the waist against normal objects, especially considering it can't hurt living creatures.

RE: #3

The moment you say "sculpture" my mind creates an image of something made of marble out of an museum. Since you'd need the Art skill to make a sculpture without powers you should need Art here... although granted if we're talking about something more functional then Engineering would work better.

[Rorx]

I'd suggest Engineering (perhaps with specialities required) for most objects with a mechanical or electrical/electronic functionality. Firearms (which presumably covers there care/maintenance) could be used for some weapons, while heavier weapons might come under that skill or Engineer (Armaments). Melee for items more designed/better constructed than a generic club/knife type object that could be created with a normal Int+Mol Man.

Art would seem to cover lots of things with no working parts and anything involving paperwork/documentation, possibly with a Forgery speciality?

Anyway, just my musings.

Oh, found the published Errata, and it's only change to Molecular Manipulation is to move Shape Alteration to being an Int + Mol Man roll rather than Wits + Mol Man. Makes it better for the character I was thinking of.. ::biggrin

[Rorx]

Unfortunately the errata doesn't sort out the discrepancy between a Man + Mol Man roll in the table and an Int + Mol Man roll in the text for the Animation technique.

I would argue that since it is a concentration effect on normal inanimate matter that it should be an Int roll.

[Alex Green]

I would argue that since it is a concentration effect on normal inanimate matter that it should be an Int roll.

Sounds like Wits to me.

[Rorx]

Sounds like Wits to me.

Presumably on the grounds that Wits are the mental equivalent of Dexterity for controlling how the things move etc? Yep, I could go with that, it makes a lot more since than Manipulation. ::biggrin