Looking for a new Attribute

[LDKNemene]

I am getting ready to run a Trinity Campaign. I am checking through the rules for what tweaks I want to make and I am getting annoyed with Appearance. Appearance is a very odd stat, having skills based on Appearance is particularly odd. I also don't like the way it handles uglyness, sometimes ugly is an advantage, but I lose that advantage if I put experience into it? (not to mention how do you train appearance?)

I have the core book for WOD 2.0. I like the concept of Presence. For those who do not know Presence is sort of the functional parts of Appearance and Charisma rolled together. What is your social force of personality? It cleans things up in my opinion.

Now for WOD 2.0 the eliminated Charisma, Appearance and Perception. Charisma and Appearance got merged into presence and they introduced two new traits Composure and Resolve. I like the Presence change but not the rest. Perception is a usefull trait, and the wod 2.0 perception system is rather contrived and not what I want. Composure and Resolve are kind of interesting, but they overlap with willpower, to the point that in WOD 2.0 willpower is a derived stat equal to the some of these two traits. i like willpower the way it is.

so here I find myself, wanting to eliminate Appearance and Charisma and replace them with Presence. That leaves me short one attribute, and I need one to use in the system. It can be social or mental (I can switch perception if I have to), it should be usefull for dice rolls, be flavor wise distinct from the existing attributes and from willpower.

Any ideas?

[Alex Green]

In A! WW made the change that App was how forceful or useful your Appearance was. So a zombie would have a very high appearance, but that'd be really ugly (thus it would buy Intimidation and not Style to go with that).

If we adapted that rule into Abby in order to buy mega-ugly you'd get a high base stat App and not a low one.

[LDKNemene]

In A! WW made the change that App was how forceful or useful your Appearance was. So a zombie would have a very high appearance, but that'd be really ugly (thus it would buy Intimidation and not Style to go with that).

I am familiar with the A! system, but spending XP to be uglier? I don't think so. Also there are just to many times when appearance and charisma overlap. Also don't even get me started on Mega-Appearance enhancements they all read like powers (Cameleon? what?) not applications of Mega-good/bad looks.

I like Presence. For Mega-Attributes most charisma attributes would apply and maybe some appearance. The rest of the appearance traits can become level 1 powers. (or in the same class as hard skelton I forget how that was defined)

mega-Attributes is another reason I do not want to make the rest of the attrib changes from WW2.0, just to much a head ache. (Fortunately for me I am currently planning on Trinity area so the only Abs are going to be ST chars.)

[Finbar]

Er...Huh? You don't spend XP to get uglier or more beautiful; you are simpler more noticeable. If you choose to define it as uglier, then you can; nothing prevents as the skills apply either way. And if the abbies are NPC's anyway, what does it matter what the mega-app abilities are based on anyway?

Sorry; I'm just not getting why you need a new stat if there is no reason for one...

FR

[LDKNemene]

Er...Huh? You don't spend XP to get uglier or more beautiful; you are simpler more noticeable. If you choose to define it as uglier, then you can; nothing prevents as the skills apply either way. And if the abbies are NPC's anyway, what does it matter what the mega-app abilities are based on anyway?

Sorry; I'm just not getting why you need a new stat if there is no reason for one...

FR

Because Appearance and Charisma overlap to much in utility. Presence reconciles this to a single utility.

[metaphysician]

You'd have to create a Mega Composure stat to compensate, though.

[SkyLion]

You'd have to create a Mega Composure stat to compensate, though.

Nope...compsure is covered by the Wits attribute...

[metaphysician]

Not in WoD2.0!

More seriously, it would leave you with an empty attribute.

[SkyLion]

I thought we were talking about the Storyteller System, not WoD 2.0.

[Alex Green]

Because Appearance and Charisma overlap to much in utility. Presence reconciles this to a single utility.

I actually like parts of this this... it would prevent double dipping by merging "Seductive" and "Seductive Looks". It would make "Awe Inspiring" a mater of personality as well as appearance.

But it also leaves us a social attribute down.

Maybe "Beauty" ? I.e. Presence is how forceful your appearance and personality is, but Beauty is just how good looking you are?

Or maybe the solution is to just live with two social attributes.

[SkyLion]

Although to be fair charisma *is* separate from appearance. Many not so pretty people have had high charisma. And why not double dip the seductive enhancments Alex? One makes you an ideal image, the other makes you take on ideal behavior.

[Alex Green]

And why not double dip the seductive enhancments Alex? One makes you an ideal image, the other makes you take on ideal behavior.

Those are simply different special effects for the same game effect.

I have a q-bolt defined as fire.

I have a q-bolt defined as a metal-ibeam.

So can I combine the two, i.e. make a firery i-beam, and have it do double damage?

No?

If the DMD gets the chance he might buy a dot of Mega-Chr with Seductive to simply manage his social life... with the enhancement defined as "he hits the radar as having good genes and thus being someone with whom its a good idea to mate". So, since it's possible to cross match enhancements, can't he also buy "Seductive Looks" using the same bloody definition and not even buy M-App?

And then we also have the problem that a +6 to seduction means you can get easily get 5 more succ over ANYONE'S willpower roll at Mega-Stat 1. This is very similar to the problems that we'd get if we let someone buy and use two q-bolts at the same time for double effect.

There should be ONE enhancement, i.e. Seductive, and you should simply be able to buy it with either App or Chr (or Manip for that matter considering Seduction is a Manipulation ability). The rules already allow for cross matching enhancements so IMHO this is by far the simpler solution.

[metaphysician]

I tend to like the idea of adding Composure, it gives a nice well-defined defense against social influences. OTOH, determining what to give it in the way of enhancements is a pain.

I wouldn't make the other attribute changes, though, or most of the other 2.0 rules changes ( one roll combat ftl ).

[LDKNemene]

I tend to like the idea of adding Composure, it gives a nice well-defined defense against social influences. OTOH, determining what to give it in the way of enhancements is a pain.

I wouldn't make the other attribute changes, though, or most of the other 2.0 rules changes ( one roll combat ftl ).

I sort of see adding composure, but it overlaps to much with willpower (willpower being 1-10 corrisponds nicely to attribute+skill for resisting social/mental influences)

Charisma and Appearance are not the same thing (addressing an earlier point), but they can be used to some extent they overlap but mostly they help each other. Basic Idea to Presence is it could be do to appearance, or it could not be, that is a flavor difference, not a mechanical one. Presence is a single stat reflecting the composite of the two. I do intened to have at least 1 merit/flaw for attractiveness, and having that merit/flaw can result in increasing/decreasing your presence dice pool by 1 for attractiveness relevent events (first impressions mostly).

I agree with you, I don't want to make most of the 2.0 rule changes, 1 roll combat is to simplified, the lack of soak breaks multiple balances, etc. I do like grouping abilities by attribute type rather then attribute.

Let me try re-phrasing my question.

So I am looking to combine Appearance and Charisma into a single stat Presence. This leaves my shy a Social Trait. I could move Perception over into Social, so I could be shy a Mental trait. In your gaming sessions have you had times when you wished their was a trait that better fit the current situation then any that exist? If so what was the situation and what did you wish you had a trait to measure? (preferrably for mental/social situations)

[SkyLion]

Alex, go back and read the fine print at the end of each of those enhancments. It specifically states that those two enhancments are up to the ST to determine appropriateness. IE. It doesn't matter how charming one is if the target in question is attracted to someone of another gender, or a different body type. Likewise, even if you become someones ideal in appearance you might lose your bonus successes when you open your mouth.

And as well in the fine print it does make it clear that using both together *does* make one nigh irresistable to others. If I was really going for the whole mega Social package I'd add Perfect Guest, and Eidolon...so I would look as attractive to the group as to the individuals with the Sductives effecting whomever i was directly engaging in the moment.

And all this from someone who rarely plays mega Socials...

[metaphysician]

And this is why I'm glad I basically maxed out my Mega Wits. Pendaran uses that for social defense, though I'm not sure the details ( I think he generally lets you ignore mega socials less than your mega wits ).

Because being seduced by the enemy in the middle of combat *sucks*.

[SkyLion]

And this is why I'm glad I basically maxed out my Mega Wits. Pendaran uses that for social defense, though I'm not sure the details ( I think he generally lets you ignore mega socials less than your mega wits ).

Because being seduced by the enemy in the middle of combat *sucks*.

I can't recall where it says this offhand, but I believe one can't use such Mega Socials or try seduction roles in combat anyways...

[Alex Green]

Alex, go back and read the fine print at the end of each of those enhancments. It specifically states that those two enhancments are up to the ST to determine appropriateness. IE. It doesn't matter how charming one is if the target in question is attracted to someone of another gender, or a different body type.

Gender perhaps, but presumably if you like a different body type M-App adjusts for this.

Although while we're on this subject let me point out that there are no game mechanics to deal with this.

Likewise, even if you become someones ideal in appearance you might lose your bonus successes when you open your mouth.

Possible but unlikely. In game this is most like to come up if the target has a phobia (smart people, dumb people, whatever) or if we invoke the minority rules.

And as well in the fine print it does make it clear that using both together *does* make one nigh irresistable to others.

Very true. It openly states that they work together.

But given that we have no (or at best very seldom used) mechanics for adjusting for body type (or even gender orientation), basically what we've got is a generic willpower roll, *possibily* resisted by Ironwill or True Devotion (both of which are rare).

Mind you, I don't have a problem with any baseline being manipulatable by any nova with mega-socials. I also don't have a problem with social combat with a few adjustments. But the reason why we need to have those few adjustments (i.e. using willpower to negate a social attack) are normally because of Mega-Social Stat 5. I'm doubtful of the desirability of making it accessible to Q1 novas with Mega-Social stat 1.

[SkyLion]

I think you misunderstood my statements. Please allow me to clarify.

Gender perhaps, but presumably if you like a different body type M-App adjusts for this.

Although while we're on this subject let me point out that there are no game mechanics to deal with this.

I was refering to if you only had Seductive Charisma. In that case, it specifically states that while the enhancement still makes one charming, if someone is attracted to a different appearance you're out of luck (*unless* you also have seductive looks).

And I might add that mechanics aren't everything, especially when it comes to social type stuff. The simple way to handle this is that if a seductively charming nova doesn't have the proper appearance for his target (or conversely has the looks but says something (through roleplaying) that would turn the trget off) then he simply doesn't get those auto successes.

Very true. It openly states that they work together.

It also states openly that if you have one but not the other you can lose your bonus (ST discretion) by not looking or sounding as seductive as you might sound or appear. If you have both going for you, the target has no Mega Socials (and might I add you aren't in combat with the target) then basically yeah, they are putty in your hands and are probably grateful for it... ::sweetlove

[Alex Green]

...If you have both going for you, the target has no Mega Socials...then basically yeah, they are putty in your hands and are probably grateful for it... ::sweetlove

What concerns me is that the effect may be too strong for the point investment. Q1, 6 nova points or 12 exp.

It's certainly an effect that lends itself to abuse and kind of makes a hash of the idea that the Mega-Socials are 'subtle'.

[SkyLion]

I never thought Mega Socials were subtle. Think about it. In RL, if a hot woman walks by, your eyes pick up on it automatically (whether you gawk or not depends on your self-control and if your wife is sitting with you. ::wink ). Likewise when a normal baseline person has tons of charisma, everyone in the room can feel it. I remember videos of girls freaking out and fainting at Michael Jackson concerts in the 80's.

Taking it to a nova level and you have about the furthest thing from subtle I can imagine. If a baseline hotie can pull attention, a Mega hottie is like an electromagnet. If a powerful baseline speaker can sway crowds imagine the effect of someone with superhuman charisma.

This is also the reason why Mega Wits is said to be one of the freakiest things to baselines. It's inhuman to have such composure and autonomy in the face of such stimuli.

[Sprocket]

What concerns me is that the effect may be too strong for the point investment. Q1, 6 nova points or 12 exp.

It's certainly an effect that lends itself to abuse and kind of makes a hash of the idea that the Mega-Socials are 'subtle'.

Judging from the way the Social Attributes are arranged, neither Mega-Appearance nor Mega-Charisma has much to do with subtlety (barring a few tricks like Mr. Nobody). AFAICT, they're the Social equivalents of Mega-Strength & Mega-Stamina. Since when were those generally considered to be subtle? ::smile

If you want Mega-Socials to the tune of "subtle", Mega-Manipulation is the only way to go. Which is what can make a Mega-Social nova with good ratings in all three Social Mega-Attributes so devastating... ::devil

[Alex Green]

OK... those are excellent points.