Trinity RPG - Warp

[Rorx]

This is probably the wrong place to post this, but I'll carry on regardless.

I know in Trinity we should just use Warp by ST fiat, but from what I can remember of the Aberrant rules for it the basic version was not very long ranged. It would take a Q6 with it's automatic successes and a substantial number of rolled successes to be able to reach even a couple of LY.

So my question is how is it that they can now quite quickly send a Warp assualt team across thousands of LY (since they are hitting the Qin as well as quickly responded to the build up of Psion forces to hit the Esperanza), and how do they detect the end point that they are sending it to in the first place.

One reason for posting it here is to get some suggestions as to how long it would take a Warper to open a gate for an Aberrant team to get away once they come under attack, assuming of course that the original gate has closed.

[Alex Green]

If we're using Abby rules then those kind of Warps only make sense if you're talking Q6 + Mastery. Then the math becomes much more reasonable, otherwise making those kinds of warps requires a powermax and an unreasonable number of succ. Something else I'd do is have such a Warp oriented character have that mega-perc enhancement that lets them judge distances, and we could give them +3 auto succ for Warps.

So basically to have that you have to have a lot of power, and you have to have a lot of focuss, and it's pretty rare... unless there's a Q8 nova with Q-Supreme who can make novas like that.

So getting across that much distance can be done.

RE: Targeting

Now *that's* an interesting question. There's two answers.

1) They can Warp blind. The warper tries to put it whereever that he knows about. Maybe he knows there is an airport, or maybe he just tries to aim for a city. Then he opens another gate in the same spot in a few hours and they leave (or maybe he can target specific people). In this case there isn't much communication. IMHO many of the raids fall into this heading.

2) They use telepathy to target, maybe not in the same abby. Worse, maybe they have an abby on the ground that they telepathically contact and use to monitor the situation, or maybe even a baseline slave who is being blackmaled. This is really scary, and there's some info that indicates it happens. For example the way the Colony attacked the space station when the teleporters were being taken out.

[SkyLion]

Geez man, why does Cannibal Bob have to be such a dick? ::laugh

[Alex Green]

Geez man, why does Cannibal Bob have to be such a dick? ::laugh

He's refering to the fact that in our game my character, i.e. "Cannibal Bob", is a Colony of Minds and has offically taken the name "The Colony".

Personally I still like the idea. Stepping forward and boldly proclaiming that your character is going to have a very dark and twisted fate... with Q8 as part of the deal. Bob was also very much against seperating ourselves from baselines (ahem), and he was also fertile and could sire children. Basically I built him with the idea of becoming the Colony.

The think to remember about baselines is... they taste good.

-Bob

[Finbar]

Doesn't anyone like Stargate? ::glare

The targeting isn't that big of a trick: You can either use the telepath (as noted), or an abbie who was built for warping and math skill (you know, some of those non-combat thingies no one likes). Also, if you are serious about warping long distance, you either need multiple warpers and/or your warper(s) need(s) quantum regeneration and q-vampire (and some abbies that are there just to provide power (another use for abbies with non-combat abilities, heh...)).

"Who's your team?"

"DHD, Duracell, Energizer, and Hole." ::cool

Also, re: Powermax: This is one of those weird times that a powermax is actually a bad thing (if you're going for range), as all you can do with a powermax is double the range; if you have the successes, it's better to just put them into range (which is 2x10^successes, IIRC).

If it helps...

FR

[BlueNinja]

IIRC, they have a chart in the APG, and I did some of the math in a thread about interstellar travel w/ Hypermove. I think it's 12 successes to reach Alpha Centauri. For a Q6 character, that means 6 rolled successes. Not too difficult. Each success after that bumps it up by a factor of 10 or so, so once you hit the point of getting 15 successes you cross the distance to all the colonies I think. 20k LY for 18 successes isn't that hard for a Q6 nova. Even a Q5 nova can pull that off occasionally.

[SkyLion]

IIRC, they have a chart in the APG, and I did some of the math in a thread about interstellar travel w/ Hypermove. I think it's 12 successes to reach Alpha Centauri. For a Q6 character, that means 6 rolled successes. Not too difficult. Each success after that bumps it up by a factor of 10 or so, so once you hit the point of getting 15 successes you cross the distance to all the colonies I think. 20k LY for 18 successes isn't that hard for a Q6 nova. Even a Q5 nova can pull that off occasionally.

And at Q6 you get 6 auto sux...

[Rorx]

Thats my problem.

18 successes to cover all the known colonies with a bit of extra is about what I remember I calculated from the basic rules. At Q6, which I take to be the sort of level of the ruling class of Aberrant - Yogdeath, Kali type level, is only going to give you 6 auto successes, then you have to roll the other 12 with a dice pool of Quantum =6 and a stat of 5 and presumably a couple of dots in the Mega-stat as well. I can see how you can get a dicepool big enough for all the successes you would need, but not how you could get one big enough to make the statistics of getting the required success even a 25% chance.

The other thing is why the hell would your Q6 Abbie be willing to be nothing more than an errand boy once he/she and got as powerful as that? In the TSH on the Wiki it is suggested that Warp should be a power available to sub-Aberrants, not so sure about that. The problem there being how do you justify a physical mutation as a basis ofr it as it claims you need to for all other sub-Aberrant powers. Also there is no way that a sub-Aberrant is going to be anything close to the equivalent of Q6.

Targeting.

Most of those Aberrants who are around in the Trinity Age presumably erupted or were created after the Ultimatum, in which case they wouldn't have seen Earth/Luna to be able to Warp blind to an area they have no firsthand knowledge of at all. Telepathic images from other Abbies or cultists would work I suppose - similar to the Clears giving coordinates to Upeo/Leviathans. Otherwise I thought they would have to use something like ESP, with similar problems about getting enough range to be useful.

Madcat on this very site has created a Far Warping power at level 3, Q3 min, but the problem there is that it takes a day per LY to form. Given that the Nova/Aberrants could have only set up their colonies close to Earth this is OK, a month or two to set up a Warpgate in the early days wouldn't have been too bad, but doesn't help them get out quickly at the time of the Ultimatum though. It is also a problem with the raids on the Qin. Qinshui is thousands of LY away, and I doubt the raids are planned much more than the 3 years in advance it would take just to cover 1k LY.

[Alex Green]

Thats my problem.

18 successes to cover all the known colonies with a bit of extra is about what I remember I calculated from the basic rules. At Q6, which I take to be the sort of level of the ruling class of Aberrant - Yogdeath, Kali type level, is only going to give you 6 auto successes, then you have to roll the other 12 with a dice pool of Quantum =6 and a stat of 5 and presumably a couple of dots in the Mega-stat as well. I can see how you can get a dicepool big enough for all the successes you would need, but not how you could get one big enough to make the statistics of getting the required success even a 25% chance.

18 succ needed.

Mastery doubles the effect of the power, so every succ moves us 20x rather than 10x. (10^18) =< (20^14).

So if we have Mastery we only need 14 succ to cover the same distance.

6 comes from Q6 so we only need to roll 8 succ.

Perception 5 (2 succ)

Warp 4 (1.6 succ)

Mega-Perception 4 (3.6 succ)

And a willpower point for an auto succ.

Or, if you *really* want to make it easy on them, assume they have a Perception Enhancement that gives 3 autosucc to long distance Warp rolls. Mental Prodigy Navigation, Absolute Sense of Stellar Distances, whatever. Something to keep in mind is that Warp lets you go anywhere on the Earth, which in 2008 is anywhere most people want to go. Given how Trinity (which is a space game) makes stellar distances so much easier with the powers that do that sort of thing, it's not unreasonable for the abbies to do something similar after their game becomes a space game as well.

The other thing is why the hell would your Q6 Abbie be willing to be nothing more than an errand boy once he/she and got as powerful as that? In the TSH on the Wiki it is suggested that Warp should be a power available to sub-Aberrants, not so sure about that.

If you want ot make it easy on them without requiring Q6, use the "Increased Range" extra. Although it only doubles the range for normal effects, with a +2 diff the power can now be used line of sight. Slap a +3 limit on Warp (say, can only be used at distances larger than one light year) so it can have an extra, and you now have a power than allows them to do their thing at Q3.

The problem there being how do you justify a physical mutation as a basis ofr it as it claims you need to for all other sub-Aberrant powers.

Make the assumption that these are not (always) physical mutations. There's a power in the AB:Teragen which lets a nova "give" his powers to baselines (basically to use them as cheap cannon fodder). If that power is our modified Warp, then it doesn't really matter if the fodder burns out or dies.

Most of those Aberrants who are around in the Trinity Age presumably erupted or were created after the Ultimatum, in which case they wouldn't have seen Earth/Luna to be able to Warp blind to an area they have no firsthand knowledge of at all. Telepathic images from other Abbies or cultists would work I suppose - similar to the Clears giving coordinates to Upeo/Leviathans.

In theory you could read anyone's mind. So you read the mind of some poor baseline on planet Earth then Warp to that location (i.e. whatever he is looking at). Since he'd be at ground zero of an abby strike there would probably be no warning that they were doing it this way since anyone it happened to would be dead.

Otherwise I thought they would have to use something like ESP, with similar problems about getting enough range to be useful.

This one is easier since it's already a level 2 power. Just buy Increased Range and use it line of sight.

[metaphysician]

You sure Mastery works like that with Warp? I always figured what it did was double your total sux, for purposes of calculating distance. Thus, an 18 sux distance warp at Q6 would require ( 18 /2 ) - 6 = 3 actual rolled sux, taking into account autosux and doubling.

[metaphysician]

Also, don't think 'errand boy', think 'sending forth my minions to strike against my enemies.' Even the big boss could get behind a logic like that for why he should be casting up some gates. . .

[Alex Green]

You sure Mastery works like that with Warp? I always figured what it did was double your total sux, for purposes of calculating distance. Thus, an 18 sux distance warp at Q6 would require ( 18 /2 ) - 6 = 3 actual rolled sux, taking into account autosux and doubling.

Since we are DEEP into 'talk with the ST' territory here, there's no way to be sure, and that's certainly one way to deal with the matter. On a side note IMHO that approach works well for the Mental (or otherwise resisted) powers.

In theory Mastery doubles the effect. Range extends by a factor of 1000 (meters to km), but the range of a gate is just how far you can create it. Normally the Warper needs to be within a few meters of the gate (Q+D) meters.

There are a number of possible way to upgrade Warp to Mastery.

1) Double the distance (i.e. 2x the total); Seems pretty weak to me but it's by the book.

2) Double the effect of every succ (10x => 20x). The advantage is it's strictly by the book, the disadvantage is it's complexe.

3) Make meters kilometers (effectively giving 3 autosucc). Easy to impliment but is confusing effect with range.

4) Double the succ (10x => 100x). Also easy to impliment, works well for a stellar game.

I wouldn't mind #4 above, especially if the ST also rules that your range is still Q+D meters. Changing the Range to km is seriously altering the power and in a Stellar game doubling the succ is pretty much keeping the power the same but more buff (i.e. can still warp anywhere).

[metaphysician]

If you want to *really* have a fit, consider this: one could argue that Mastery should change the *size of the portal* as well. Meaning that you could now haul out Warp gates a kilometer wide.

Whether this is a good thing, depends on whether you want whole armies or fleets going through gates to the other side of the galaxy or not. . .

[Rorx]

I assume this Mastery is in the APG, that I don't have?

In which case the same could be used for ESP and I finally understand how the Novas could have been finding and setting up suitable colony worlds (like Eden, to bring us back to Trinity from Aberrant).

One problem with Warping blind/line of sight on the astronomical scale is that the system the Abbie wants to Warp into isn't there anymore when he arrives, since the image he is looking at is going to be at least years if not hundreds/thousands of years old. Since the galaxy is rotating/expanding/moving at a reasonable proportion of light speed, our example Abbie could end up hundreds or more of LY away from the system he thought he would arrive in. Hopefully he would have a good idea of how to get home, since that wouldn't look to be in the same place either.

This of course assumes that using a power like ESP etc is instantaneous and hence can find the true/current location of things while just looking up into space and saying 'I want to go there' is subject to the normal problems of light and time lag.

[SkyLion]

Mind you Rorx that Abie powers aren't limited to the laws of nature. There is actually a sidebar (also in the APg I think but maybe its in the core rules) that flat out states that Nova powers work how the Nova wants or expects them to, not neccessarily in any way that makes empirical logical sense. So if he wants to warp line of sight to a far away stellar target using LOS his power can theoretically make it happen for him.

[Rorx]

True, he doesn't need to know the physics of amplification of coherent photons to point his finger and fire a laser beam at you.

See, that's what you get for a scientific education/job, too much over analysis!

As long as the internal logic works, just go with the flow, it's when it doesn't that I get irritated.

Thank you gentlemen, I think you have answered everything I needed to about Warp. Now I just have to get round to getting hold of the APG sometime....

[Alex Green]

If you want to *really* have a fit, consider this: one could argue that Mastery should change the *size of the portal* as well. Meaning that you could now haul out Warp gates a kilometer wide.

Whether this is a good thing, depends on whether you want whole armies or fleets going through gates to the other side of the galaxy or not. . .

I'd lump the size of the portal in as a "effect", so it should be doubled.

On the other hand maybe you could replace the 1000x increase from Range and put that in the size of the gate. Increasing the range (which for Warp is Q+D meters) makes little sense... to be honest doing this probably works pretty well. ::happy

So we're deep into ST rulings and judgements and negotations between the player and ST, just like all the rest of the Q6 powers.

RE: APG

Although it has it's flaws it's a good read. Q6+ powers (including Mastery), Gadget rules, new enhancements, errata, etc.

[metaphysician]

A nutshell description of Mastery:

-Requires Q6 to purchase as an extra

-Cuts quantum point costs in half ( or to nothing, for level 1 powers )

-Upgrades duration to Quantum + Power Rating *Turns*

-Upgrades range and area units from Meters to *Kilometers*

-Multiplies 'effect' by a factor of two ( Effect generally being things like damage dice, soak, rolled sux, etc )

All aspects are applied by default, unless not applicable, though you can voluntarily drop one or more aspects in exchange for some Weakness points.

There's more powerful forms of Mastery at Quantum 8 and Quantum 10, that basically do the same stuff only moreso.

[Rorx]

Had another look at the write up on Warp, having finally found my Aberrant rule book again, I think there must be an Errata somewhere since the Dice Pool listing in my copy says N/A! This would mean that the range you can get is just equal to your Quantum as successes, and make it useless for any space purposes, which it obviously is not meant to be.

I think we had so far assumed that it would be Perception + Warp (+ Mega-Perception) had we not? This would be in keeping with Teleport which is the next closest power. It would also tie in with having ESP as a targeting sense for where to go if the destination was an unfamiliar place.

[Alex Green]

Yes, use the teleport rules.

[Snackula]

I've never play tested this, but I had always assumed that Warp could be upgraded to the Trinity concept, either by creating a new range-extending extra or by revamping the entire power (possibly at a higher level) into one that is maybe based on familiarity rather than distance. As for lower tier aberrants or sub-aberrants using Warp powers, they could always have the basic version, but simply be warping to a nearby staging ground for collection by the bosses.

Anyway, that's just my ¥0.02, such as it is.

[Finbar]

If for no other reason than game balance, don't. The two versions of Warp (psi vs. quantum) are nicely balanced against each othe: Quantum Warp doesn't have the potential to wreck the local environment, but doesn't have the potential range. Psionic Warp, on the other hand, has the advantage of effect (in terms of area), but also has the disadvantage of not allowing the psionic much of choice who goes through. By giving the abbies the advantage of the potential range, that balance would be disrupted.

Sorry; just not into giving the abbies any more power than they already have...

FR

[Alex Green]

Which raises the issue of where the Colony's crew is warping in from. Maybe somewhere in system.

[Finbar]

I know it's not Eris Erindi ::biggrin ...

Given the range of clairsentient abilities, you could get away with somewhere as close as the moons of Saturn, taking advantage of the gravity sheer there, as well as the sheer amount of weird things going on. Of course, Pluto would be an even better bet, as it's far away from anything, and solid enough that you could build something there. That would also explain the certain preparations of a certain group of Antarctic Abbies...

FR

[Alex Green]

All of this works a lot better if the Colony has *one* big time warper (maybe even himself) to drop off lesser warpers to a nearer location.

[Rorx]

Well unless they are Warping blind, or (having checked how poor the range is on ESP et al) have some real special way of getting a target location information it is starting to look like a shorter range location is the way to go. Unfortunately it doesn't explain how the Colonies cronies are able to hit both the Earth/Khantze and Qinshui, unless he divided his forces and has intermittent contact with the Qinshui forces via a long chain of Warp/Teleport steps.

Not sure I can agree with it being in system, after Trinity at least do patrols out as far as Neptune, and orginally the Levithans had to go out that far to do safe Jump. Given that a decent high level Clear gets Psi + highest Mode on his Attunement Range, and are likely to be looking at Psi 7-8+ and Mode 5 say that would give a range equivalent of Psi 12 say = 4 million km. That's a big area that a single Clear can sense an Aberrant in while on an Outer System patrol. And the 7th Legion are just the sort to be doing that kind of thing.

[metaphysician]

Random thought: if the attack force doesn't need to breath and can survive in space, 'blind' warping that just gets you within a lightyear of the target or so in the first jump would be good enough. Now that your closer, warp again.

[Alex Green]

...do patrols out as far as Neptune, and...a range equivalent of Psi 12 say = 4 million km. That's a big area that a single Clear can sense an Aberrant in while on an Outer System patrol. And the 7th Legion are just the sort to be doing that kind of thing.

This is the problem right here. The Legion doing this does a good job of keeping the planets clear. The belt is a different story.

4 million km is roughly 13 light seconds.

The Asteroid Belt is 850 light seconds away. It's circumference is thus 1,445,000 light seconds (Pi R^2). So one ship in the belt can scan 1 / 110,000 of the belt. So with 50 Thousand scans they have less than a 50% chance of finding our hidden base.

And if the base is a rock out side the plane of the rest of solar system they have *no* chance. We call it space because there's so much of it.

[metaphysician]

On the other hand, the secret novas who created and maintained the 'quantum barrier' probably *did* have the abilities and resources to scan for such 'deep space islands'. . . which is likely why the Colony set out to have them killed.

[Alex Green]

:Sigh: OK, my bad.

Circumference is 2PiR, not PiR^2. So it's 5338 light seconds.

Which means they could pick up something every 410 trips.... not good but not impossible either.

Although it's still worth pointing out that a rock outside the plane of the solar system generates crazy math to find.

[Alex Green]

Oh!!!

Other idea, how about keeping the temp staging area taint free by not stationing any abbies there? You go there, you jump from there to the Earth.

[metaphysician]

Could work, but OTOH, since by definition the place is on the receiving ( and departing ) end of repeated high sux Warp usages, there's probably a definite floor to how small its signature could be reduced.