Aberrant RPG - New Claws Extra: Applicable to Strength

[metaphysician]

Okay, as has been hammered into us all over time here- strength modifies claws, claws do not modify strength. Ergo, alot of extras apply in trivial degrees when used on Claws.

So, idea: A new extra that basically extends another extra's effect to the Strength component of damage. So, for the cost of two extras, you could have Ranged Claws that deliver full strength damage, or Area Claws that do likewise.

The tradeoffs? Firstly, it costs an entire extra, upping the cost of the power considerably ( into Level 3 range ). In addition, you'd have to buy this extra for *each* extra to be applied to strength, so more than one such effect would push the power well into Q6+ territory. Third, if necessary for balance, the power would be limited to applying as many dots of Mega Strength as their are dots of Claws, and no more ( thus negating the "One dot wonder" twink ).

The benefit? In addition to making certain builds easier to do, it would give physically-oriented Q6+ novas more stuff to do.

[Alex Green]

Claws + Area is flat broken applied to strength, even if it takes two extras. It's supieror to Q-Bolt + Area. It can be used multiple times per round, it's q-cost is 3 per (Q+D) rather than 3 per action, the damage given for one dot of Claws is compareable to 5 dots of Q-Bolt.

Claws + AGG (letting you apply your Strength as AGG) is also seriously broken, please compare to Disin.

I'm less sure about Claws + Ranged... this might work, but we still have the problem of a Powermax adding other extras.

If you feel the need for Mega Strength to have a lethal ranged attack, I'd suggest making an enhancement for that purpose.

Other solutions: Many of these issues become less of a problem at Q6, so you could simply make the extra Q6 min.

[metaphysician]

Several of those problems are why I suggested putting a limit of "1 dot Claws for 1 dot of Mega Str". That would mean that that the problems with Claws + Area go away, mostly ( you could get the same maintenance duration, multiple uses a round effect as QBolt + Area. . . but only by spending half again more points, roughly ).

Claws + Agg, I agree, forgot about that one.

Claws + Range, you don't have the powermax problem, because if you wanted to add another Extra that benefits from strength, you'd need two full extras, or 4 max sux. Thats not something you can do very often, even at Q6.

I do like your idea of making this Extra a Q6 minimum, though.

[Alex Green]

Several of those problems are why I suggested putting a limit of "1 dot Claws for 1 dot of Mega Str".

Point. Really good point actually. :Long pause for thought:

I'm not sure. First this rule does seem to add a lot of "you need to pay for it to get it" balance. But this rule also seems to be an admission that M-Str 5 is broken for this, it's mostly a way of preventing it. Sure, with 30 nova points we won't be seeing 5 dots of M-Str and 5 dots of Level 3 claws, but we may have just postponed our day of reconing. I suspect Area is pretty broken even late in the game with 75 Nova point characters, simply because it is so much stronger than Q-Bolt + Area.

Claws + Range, you don't have the powermax problem, because if you wanted to add another Extra that benefits from strength, you'd need two full extras, or 4 max sux.

OK, that works, but needs to be stated in the definition.

I do like your idea of making this Extra a Q6 minimum, though.

Thank you. Many broken powers are a lot less broken there because those are the big leagues. Just state that this is a varient on mastery (so you can't double up and also get mastery) and your pretty much there.

[metaphysician]

Well, I don't think pairing it with Mastery would necessarily be unbalancing, but thats because its Claws, a level 1 power. Even in the case of Claws + Area, sticking Mastery on it would leave it inferior to Q-Bolt + Area + Mastery ( which does far more damage and at long range ).

As for Mega Strength 5 Claws, the reason I don't consider it inbalancing: to make it work, you need to buy 5 dots Mega Str and 5 dots of Claws + Area + Affects Strength, a level 5 power. Thats 40 NP total. You could instead have QBOlt + Area 5, for 25 points, and still have 15 left to buy other stuff, like Armor 5, or Inv ( Energy ) 3. This build lets you do one thing really well, but it costs so much I wouldn't call it *that* efficient.

[Alex Green]

Well, I don't think pairing it with Mastery would necessarily be unbalancing, but thats because its Claws, a level 1 power. Even in the case of Claws + Area, sticking Mastery on it would leave it inferior to Q-Bolt + Area + Mastery ( which does far more damage and at long range ).

Normal claws yes, with these rules, no. Strength damage would be doubled, and it's easy to get to M-Str 6 with Q6. Area means the effect is insane, so basically we'd have a 16[60] nuke going off several times a round as a maintenance effect (which is per scene with Mastery).

As for Mega Strength 5 Claws, the reason I don't consider it inbalancing: to make it work, you need to buy 5 dots Mega Str and 5 dots of Claws + Area + Affects Strength, a level 5 power. Thats 40 NP total. You could instead have QBOlt + Area 5, for 25 points, and still have 15 left to buy other stuff, like Armor 5, or Inv ( Energy ) 3. This build lets you do one thing really well, but it costs so much I wouldn't call it *that* efficient.

M-Str 5 wouldn't need to be purchased with 15 nova points. Boost, Growth, etc. That drops the cost down a lot, especially if you're paying experience since you can stack several one dot strength giving powers. If we include Q-min Costs then to max Q-Botl takes a fair bit more since you'd need a 5 while Claws & Growth are both Q-min 1.

In effect:

Cost: Q-bolt costs a lot more juice to use. 3 per use vs. 3 maintenance. At it's most extreme would be someone who wants to attack several times a round.

Effect: Q-Bolt does 20[10], Claws does 6[25] (assuming both lethal).

Ranged: Q-Bolt is, Claws is not.

Versatility: Claws wins hands down, M-Str 5 has other uses, Q-Bolt does not.

Basically what we've built here with Claws+Area is a potentially superior version of Immolate, or maybe Immolate + Area. I'd *much* rather see that instead.

[metaphysician]

Not much to say to that, other than that there is nothing anybody could say that would persuade me to allow Mastery to apply to a mega-attribute. At all.

[Alex Green]

Not much to say to that, other than that there is nothing anybody could say that would persuade me to allow Mastery to apply to a mega-attribute. At all.

Mastery would be applied only to Claws... but base Claw damage would be determined by your Mega-Strength.

Lots of this sound pretty Q6-ish.

On a side note there's lots of other options for increasing the usefulness of Claws that we normally don't see employed.

Claws + Burning + Agg (very, very nasty at 5 dots or in combo with Quick).

Claws + AP + AP (ST permitting, you double up and every succ drops soak by 4)

Claws + Kenetic + AP

Claws + Area (1 die of lethal damage which can't be soaked by baselines)

Claws + Homing (ST permitting)

Claws + Spray (ST permitting)

Claws + AGG

[SkyLion]

Its tough for me to say on this one. You would have to come up with a pretty darn good IC special effect to describe claws+area that wouldn't be more plausoble as a q-bolt+area, for me to buy it...

[Alex Green]

Claws + Area + RDQC (get two dots and you can use one for no cost).

Many of those others above work pretty well with RDQC.

[ProfPotts]

Claws + Kenetic + AP

This one's pretty good (Gunslinger - briefly seen in QZ: Elites - has Claws + Kinetic Discharge + Armour Piercing). In practice it makes you an awsome sniper, but really reliant on getting a good roll to hit to have the best effect.

As far as the 'Applicable to Strength' Extra goes, I'd have to say I'm against it. Essentially it's an attempt (albeit one with a nod towards game balance) to add an Extra to an Attribute, bypassing the whole game mechanic of Enhancements. Compare Mega-Strength + Area to the area-effecting Mega-Strength Enhancements (Shockwave & Thunderclap) & you'll see the huge difference in raw power. To my mind, if you want to start adding Extras to 'strength' for specific power concepts then you're better off using relevant powers (such as Telekinesis, or Quantum Bolt if your going specifically for damage) with well-defined special effects to produce that power concept you're after - the end result may not be as powerful, but that just reinforces that argument that the Attribute + Extra concept is broken in the first place.

I'd be interested in which specific power-concepts you had in mind for this Extra, metaphysician - I'm pretty sure the guys round here could whip up a few suggestions for ways to duplicate them within the existing rules structures (several, I'm sure, would relish the challenge ::wink ).

As for physically-oriented Q6+ Novas not having enough to do... I'm not sure what you mean by that? I'm guessing you mean that the Level 4+ powers aren't pure physical things, & that Mastery can't be applied to Mega-Attributes? There are still plenty of lower-level physical powers which can benefit lots from Mastery (like Armour, Growth, Density Control - Increase, etc.). Also, by Q6, physically oriented characters should be getting into the 'crushing coal into diamonds' realm of physical talent - meaning, of course, that you can use 'physical power' as a special effect for all sorts of powers ('arctic breath' anyone?).

[metaphysician]

Actually, the inspiring thought was "ranged melee attacks," stuff like sword-swings that slice up stuff in the general direction of the target. Technically better done with QBolt, except that totally disconnects it from physical power, so. . .

I did think of another Extra combo though: Claws + MIRV. Unless I'm mistaken, it would let you make multiple attacks against adjacent foes with a single dice roll, and splitting the rolled damage. Thus being great for mook-mashing.

[Alex Green]

I think you'd run into the same problem. The claw damage would MIRV, Str would not.

[SkyLion]

Couple comments..

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1.) It would seem to me that crushing coal into diamonds might be a fan made enhancement for mega str (if it isnt already id be surprised.) So why is it that you don't allow such fan made enhancements or powers in your games Potts? Too much effort to hash stuff out with players? The book does say to work with your ST for any unusual ideas you might have...

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2.) Ranged Melee attacks.

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Im actually in favor of this one. Theres only so many q-bolts you can throw around while flying with a force field up. Im generally in favor of implementiong the "wheres the juice?" option and either reducing q cost, or providing more points. Leads to more epic comic book style battles rather than the "gone in 10 seconds" battles of standard aberrant.

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Just preferences mind you, so please no flaming.

[metaphysician]

Well, in Ancient Aberrant, the GM manages that more or less with a couple rules of thumb:

1. Outside "dramatic time", nobody tracks qp. So unless your trying to do something like chain-warp an entire army, everybody goes into battles full.

2. Powers that last "scene length or X turns" just plain last scene length.

3. Rapid Recovery is instantaneous

Between these, it pretty much means only extensive use of stuff like regen, quickness, or Qbolt will run you out of quantum in battle. Eases up record keeping alot, too.

[metaphysician]

Oh, and totally off topic, but I still consider Thunderclap and Shockwave to be nigh-uselessly weak as written.

[Alex Green]

Thunderclap maybe, but Shockwave is huge.

One hit, one building.

[ProfPotts]

I'm pretty sure we've got some old threads talking about Thunderclap & Shockwave round here somewhere... The way I always see them is 'area knockback' - both can be pretty cool in different ways, although (natch) better at higher Mega-Strength. I'd have liked Thunderclap to have a deafening aspect too, but thats just me. As it is, Thunderclap is the poster-boy for clearing gases, putting out fires, & others things which can be done with a powerful rush of air (not to mention knocking baselines AoT).

1.) It would seem to me that crushing coal into diamonds might be a fan made enhancement for mega str (if it isnt already id be surprised.) So why is it that you don't allow such fan made enhancements or powers in your games Potts? Too much effort to hash stuff out with players? The book does say to work with your ST for any unusual ideas you might have...

::rolleyes

Because I'm an evil, totalitarian, git who lives only to stomp all over your hopes & dreams? ::devil

... Either that, or an experienced ST who firmly believes that pretty much any (balanced) effect you can dream up can be simulated with clever application of the rules as-is & some creative descriptions. You make up your own mind which it is... ::sly

Most fan-made stuff, even when written with the best of intentions, tends towards redundancy (i.e. you can already get the effect by using the published rules), or being un-balanced in one way or another (whether by design - i.e. power gaming - or via a loophole or two which the writer hasn't considered). Why do you need a new power to turn coal into diamonds, for example, when there's a perfectly good power to do that in the book? Same with a 'ranged melee attack' - there's several ways to do that in the book (e.g. Claws + Range): they just don't always meet the power-level expectations of the guys wanting to take that effect - which is most often a result of something which we usually refer to as 'game balance' ::wink .

Not that the published rules are always perfect by any stretch of the imagination - some of the APG stuff, for example, is just insane - but I'm not a fan of reinventing the wheel for the sake of it.

[Alex Green]

Im actually in favor of this one. Theres only so many q-bolts you can throw around while flying with a force field up. Im generally in favor of implementiong the "wheres the juice?" option and either reducing q cost, or providing more points. Leads to more epic comic book style battles rather than the "gone in 10 seconds" battles of standard aberrant.

In Abby combat tends to fit into one of several camps.

1) Brutal and short.

This is the most common type. One round and it's over. The current action that Slither and Ghost and Stranger are in counts as a pretty long fight, but it's probably still only about five rounds. Buy a forcefield and it will never run out of juice.

2a) Brutal and long.

DMD vs. an Army. Lots of baselines against someone who takes ping damage, or even no damage. The fight can go on, and on, and on. You can run out of juice real easy.

2b) Ping and long.

Like with "2" except the both guys are taking only ping damage, if that. Regen and maintenance powers become seriously draining.

The problem is that making a character for combat type #1 (Quick, Forcefield, Regen, Q-Bolt) also normally means you fail in type "2", and vise versa. An easy and brutally effective type two character is 5 dots of armor, spines, regen, and 1 dot of mega-strength.

Simply tossing q-costs out the door (which has it's attractions, the type 1 characters mostly have more flash) is simply saying that all type 1 characters are also type 2, and all type 2 characters lose in general because they're built around a flawed concept.

[metaphysician]

In Abby combat tends to fit into one of several camps.

1) Brutal and short.

This is the most common type. One round and it's over. The current action that Slither and Ghost and Stranger are in counts as a pretty long fight, but it's probably still only about five rounds. Buy a forcefield and it will never run out of juice.

2a) Brutal and long.

DMD vs. an Army. Lots of baselines against someone who takes ping damage, or even no damage. The fight can go on, and on, and on. You can run out of juice real easy.

2b) Ping and long.

Like with "2" except the both guys are taking only ping damage, if that. Regen and maintenance powers become seriously draining.

The problem is that making a character for combat type #1 (Quick, Forcefield, Regen, Q-Bolt) also normally means you fail in type "2", and vise versa. An easy and brutally effective type two character is 5 dots of armor, spines, regen, and 1 dot of mega-strength.

Simply tossing q-costs out the door (which has it's attractions, the type 1 characters mostly have more flash) is simply saying that all type 1 characters are also type 2, and all type 2 characters lose in general because they're built around a flawed concept.

Hmm, comments about both as based on experience in my game. . .

Type 1 fights are generally what we have, even when armies *are* present ( though usually, we've had armies on both sides ).

Type 2a fights, depends on the build. Bricks handle these fairly well, if they have enough soak to reduce most attacks to nothing. Beyond that, depends on the offense available. If you have area attacks, though, this can quickly turn into "Brutal and Short." Also, in pre-modern settings, these type of fights tend to be alot less dangerous, not so much for weaker attacks as for melee oriented forces, which vastly reduces the number of attacks you can be subjected to each round. Thus, melee oriented types can solo armies. . . given time.

Type 2b, I honestly can only see it happening in solo combat. Group vs solo, or group vs group, odds are *somebody* can do more than ping. . . and somebody can do more than ping to *you*. If it *does* happen, advantage goes to whoever has the mobility to break combat. . . since either they successfully play defensive and tire the enemy out, or they fail, and flee before they can lose.

[SkyLion]

Honestly, I think that the q-point thing is just a...a convention of roleplaying if you will. I know, I know, Alex and others are always fond of saying that Cyclops has run "out of juice" once or twice in the comics but IIRC that usually happened when he did something along the lines of what we would call a powermax. In movies and comics, people tend to fly use their force fields tk and all that pretty unlimited.

,,

If we still wanted to keep holding onto this mythical idea of "game balance" it would be nice to see a system more like video games (since this is a game we are talking about) where one has a meter that replenishes itself when not in use. You could still get worn down momentarily but as soon as you stop to recharge you are good to go again.

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Think about Superman...using enhancements like crazy, flying at super hyperspeeds, and lasering people with his eyes...he doesnt have a quantum pool..he just has near unlimited power so long as he is solar charged. We see him get run down when the sun isnt available but thats not the same as a "quantum pool"

[metaphysician]

Well, fatigue often does occur, but its usually not hugely distinct from getting fatigued from ordinary physical activity. Thats the real artificial separation.

If you want precision, Hero handles this nicely.

The main problem with making Aberrant qp-less is that a lot of mechanics strongly assume point-usage as a balancing factor. Which is to say, Quickness and Regen would need a total reworking.

[ProfPotts]

The big difference between Aberrant & comics-style power-use is that Aberrant PCs (as roleplayers tend to) generally throw full-power everything all the time. In the comics this rarely happens - in fact, scenes where the hero thinks 'Hey - this opponent is tough enough for me to stop holding back!' are pretty common. So comics have 'usual power use', 'full power use', & 'putting lots of effort into power use'. Aberrant has this too, thanks to the Power Max on the high end, & the 'half power' QP break on the other. Coupled with the fact that Maintenance powers only really drain QP during actual combat, I don't see that Aberrant is so dissimilar to the comics it simulates. After all, how many actual attacks do you witness in an average comicbook super-fight?

Also, comicbook characters (like the aforementioned Cyclops) tend to have 'running low on power' issues more at the beginning of their careers - also easy to simulate by the PCs buying the Reduced Quantum Cost Extra for their powers as they build experience, or (as in the case with Superman level characters) Mastery (which also reduces QP cost - not to mention extending duration).

Take, for example, a classic 'energy thrower' character in Aberrant who's working as an Elite. Now, while he's flying around on patrol he can happily have his Flight & Force Field on all the time - they keep going for the scene, unless he encounters combat (or other 'stressful situations'): at that point he still doesn't pay any extra QP until after the first maintenance period. How much he pays then depends a lot on the situation: if he's encountered a group of baselines (unless it is a literal army's worth or they're packing heavy weapons) he can most likely get away with a half-power Force Field & half-power Flight. Same with the Quantum Bolts he flings back at them - is he really going to need more than half power to take out each of these guys?

Stop & think about supers in comics again - gamers tend to focus on the fact that guys like Cyclops can blow a hole in a main battle tank with one shot, & ignore the fact that he also spends a lot of time zapping baselines & doing no more than knocking them about (or out). Just because you can vapourize a man's chest with one shot, doesn't mean you have to... ::sly

To me this is more about the mental block gamers tend to have about not using everything they have at full capacity all the time than it is about any failings of the system. It's also more of an issue with 'theoretical characters' (i.e. design concepts) than it is about characters developed during play. If you play a guy who runs low on juice all the time, then chances are you're going to start looking at the RQC or some other solution to that weakness of your character. In the QZ games, for example, I've noticed a couple of the longer-term PCs using the half-power rule more - as you get a feel for the system, setting, & your character, you realise just how much power you can or can't afford to get away with chucking about.

[phoenix]

As opposed to certain other of the long-term QZPCs who haven't been getting into any brawls lately, and are in fact busy serving coffee to monkeys while it's topless-tanning-with-supermodels and nova-blowjob day for everyone else... ::tongue ::wink

[ProfPotts]

::lol

... Of course, if Glacier was in either of those two situations, the women involved would be dead... :tombstone: & you thought getting your tongue stuck on an icicle was bad... ::sly