Aberrant RPG - Aberrant 2e Ideas

[metaphysician]

Okay, due to reading up on Exalted 2e and Scion lately, been pondering what happens if you apply some of their new game mechanics. The big one being the tick combat system and static DV.

Tick system: Introducing this makes a *lot* of changes. High initiative no longer guarantees constant preemptive action, for one thing, and you'd need to refigure alot of stuff that works on the initiative or action system. For example, Enhanced Initiative would probably add dice to your Join Battle rolls, while Quickness might need to get reworked totally ( my inclination is have it reduce the Speed of whatever action is associated with it ).

Static DV: Suddenly, mega dex is alot more useful as a defense. OTOH, even novas without it will likely have base DV of around 3-4, so everyone is a tad harder to hit. Suddenly, you don't need to split your every action to allow for Dodge.

[Matthew]

http://www.eononline.net/downloads/aberrant/aberrant20.htm

This link is to my rendition of the Aberrant 2nd edition rules. I have a more complete version. I will see about getting it uploaded in the near future.

I tried to not only bring aberrant in line with the tick system, but also update the power sets so they would be more balanced than in previous editions.

Yea, this system allows for a lot more big battle type fights. It becomes more about offense and dynamic fighting, than having to use most (if not all) your actions for dodges. lastly, if you are really adventurous you could try adding new enchantments/powers that mimic some of the charms. T

[metaphysician]

If its the thing I remembered reading, I didn't like it because it nerfed the damage/defense system.

[metaphysician]

*checks* Actually, not the thing I was thinking of. However, I don't like the changes to strength. Yeah, Mega Strength works differently than other Mega Atts now, but this modified version makes it impossible to do a brick, as you don't do any damage worth mentioning. Martial Artists also get nerfed, as Dex doesn't contribute anything to hitting targets.

Not a bad idea, but a few wrong turns IMO.

[Matthew]

Good that you pointed out some of those things. In the later editions of this idea (of which is not up-loaded yet)

I changed over the skill set to the NWOD. This way you had a smaller and more well defined set of skills. So, Martial arts is no longer than and now it's just brawl. If you wanted to use mega-dex, I would suggest buying a merit that allowed you to finesse a specific attack (a weapon, or type of maneuver)

I changed strength over because mega-dex was getting way too much play (it became the WIN stat, which was the folly of many old WW games) and it was too easy for a nova to kill someone with a flick of their pinky. (including other novas) In this edition I evened out the playing field...a little. If you play a Mega-strength brawler. When you roll to attack you add Strength +Brawl + Mega-strength dice. If you succeed in hitting them, then you calculate raw damage (before soak is applied) which is Strength + Mega-strength dice + Extra successes. Basically, it doubles up on it self, but only if you get successes. In short, its not guaranteed...but it's damn close.

As a side note, I am play testing these rules right now and so I am willing to make changes if I see that they must.

Keep the comments coming!

[metaphysician]

The problem is, Mega Strength's main comparison benchmark is not Mega Dex, its the other offensive powers. If its not at least roughly comparable in damage output to Quantum Bolt, than it basically means bricks are useless. Also, your system means that superhuman strength *always* has associated superhuman accuracy, which is itself potentially unbalancing and definitely genre contrary.

I think the existing mega-strength rules are fine as is. Yeah, it does alot of damage cheaply, but you need minimums in both Quantum and Strength to buy it up, its mostly limited to melee, and it only does Bashing damage by default. Whereas Q-Bolt has no attribute minimums, does more damage, can do lethal damage, and has range ( at the expense of a cost per shot ). Similarly, at the upper end of performance, a Mega Strength build hits 30 bashing, whereas a Q-Bolt does either 35 bashing or 30 lethal.

Any modification that diverges too much from this status quo would need some very careful working to keep from unbalancing the two.

[Matthew]

I explain, in brief, in my write up that touching or making physical contact with some one is rather easy. Anyone with marital arts training knows is generally easy to block attacks than get out of the way. Rather it is more a measure of being able to leave a lasting impression (IE damage).

Dexterity, and mega-dexterity, still play a huge role. They help with DV, Join battle actions, ranged attacks (which includes Q.Bolt.), and has a larger pool of non-combat skills. Also, Mega-dexterity has some revamped Enhancements that help a lot. Like Rapid strike, which lowers the speed of physical actions.

I would now like to re-examine your comparison.

You compared Mega-strength with Quantum bolt. That is a decent example. They both are almost exclusively used for combat situations. This is where the comparison breaks down. Below is a quick chart to give you a clear understanding of their differences

                     Mega-strength                 Q.Bolt
Quantum point cost             0                       2 (not counting any extras)
Damage type                    B                       B or L
Damage Dice                    No                      Yes
Auto. Damage Successes          Yes                     No
Range                             No                     Yes

The biggest thing I want you to pay attention to is damage dice Vs. Auto. Damage successes. If a Mega-strength guy can get through a Nova's soak, then they are going to hurt. If a Q.Bolt guy can get through their soak, then they may hurt.

,,

In short. Mega-strength (as in Ab. 1.0) wins out against Quantum bolt because it cost nothing to use, grants you Automatic damage successes (not damage dice), can do Lethal with 1 level of a level 1 power or an Enhancement (that you can choose for free if it's the first one you select), and can be used for a variety of non-combat applications The advantage that Q.Bolt does have over mega-strength is the range, which I grant you is a solid advantage, but it does not enough to out-wiegh Mega-strength's advantages.

[metaphysician]

The thing is, damage levels vs dice make a difference only against lesser soaks. Also, mega strength has both dice and levels too; consider the base Strength dice, and any claws or crushing blow modifiers.

Try this for a comparison. Assuming equal dots in the applicable powers, all minimums met, and equal Quantum between the characters:

2 dots, 1 Quantum: 10 levels + 2 dice bashing, versus 6 levels + 8 dice bashing

3 dots, 2 quantum: 15 levels + 3 dice, versus 9 levels + 12 dice

4 dots, 3 quantum: 20 levels + 4 dice, versus 12 levels + 16 dice

5 dots, 4 quantum: 25 levels + 5 dice, versus 15 levels + 20 dice

Against someone with 10 bashing soak, even at the 5 dot level, your looking at an average of 17 levels bashing, versus 15 levels bashing. Minimal difference. Against someone with less soak, the strength is better. . . but to an essentially irrelevant degree. Whereas against 20 soak, the averages are 7 vs 7. And against 30 soak, the averages are 0.5 versus 2-3 levels.

Basically, lots of levels are only a major advantage against targets with low defense. . . and against low defense targets, its usually not hugely relevant. Against high targets, its too your detriment, because you have levels raw damage, and thus its easier to reduce to ping.

Adding Claws or Crushing Blow changes things somewhat, but then your spending additional points on stuff that the QBolter could spend on stuff too. Claws is cheap and effective, but adds a maintenance cost, and is still not ranged. Crushing Blow is even worse, but then again, its intended for something else.

[Matthew]

Let me start by making an apology. I read Q.bolt incorrectly. It does have automatic successes on damage and then additional dice. I did not orginaly know this. I still am of the opinion that mega-strength needed to be tweaked, but at least I am not wrong in my knowledge of Q.bolt

Against someone with 10 bashing soak, even at the 5 dot level, your looking at an average of 17 levels bashing, versus 15 levels bashing. Minimal difference. Against someone with less soak, the strength is better. . . but to an essentially irrelevant degree. Whereas against 20 soak, the averages are 7 vs 7. And against 30 soak, the averages are 0.5 versus 2-3 levels.

Good point, though mega-strong fighters are still far from useless. This is just a demonstration of one of the few things they got right when the designed the system. Power are suppose to have more punch than mega-attributes. (that is where the quantum point cost comes in.) Generally a power is more specializes and thus is applied to less situations than a given mega-attribute. If the power is applied to a board range of situations (like Elemental Mastery, etc) it is less powerful per tech. than a equal level power. An example of this is Q.bolt compared to any of the tech. Blast powers.

At high end a Q.bolt guy should start out passing a super-strong because the q.bolt guy has to pay qauntum points for his power to work. The Mega-strength guy does not.

*Note: This is why I added the exalted min damage rules. This way mega-strong guys can still compete when when you start dealing with High end soak.

Mega-strength needs it's place, just like all the other mega-attributes. By making it uniformed, system wise, and changing how combat works. You create that place. Strength excels in hand to hand combat and Dexterity is equally as good for range. The slight trade off, because you can always punch with you hands but you can't really throw them ::biggrin , is that Mega-dexterity adds to survivalbity a lot more readily than mega-strength. Mega-dexterity adds to join action, can help with speed, and adds to DV. Mega-strength is only really good at breaking things.

[metaphysician]

The thing is, any tweak that significantly reduces Mega Strength's damage makes bricks basically useless. Reducing it to one autosux makes bricks *totally* useless: they can hit as easily as someone with mega dex used to, but it doesn't matter because any significant soak bounces them.

Separate thought: social combat rules. They would be perfect for mega-social attributes, and also provide a much clearer answer distinguishing 'greatly persuasive' from 'mind control,' via the distinction between natural and unnatural influence. My guess is, base mega-attributes would be natural influence, as they are just normal social rolls with more dice effectively ( like with social Excellencies ). Most if not all Enhancements would produce unnatural influences, instead.

Iron Will would require new rules, though, since under social combat, anybody can spend WP to resist social influences.

[Matthew]

Got to remember that the primary job of strength is to dish out damage. I tied "to hit" with strength for melee based combat so that dexterity would not get all the glory.

What do you mean 1 automatic success? Are you referring to the "superior" enhancement I created. If you are, then please re-read because you can convert 2 mega-dice for 1 auto success. Oh, you just made me think of something that could be a better compromise. Since we are having issue with damage out put, how about we write in that min damage dice are considered mega-dice for the purposes of the superior enhancement. This means that a bricks can, after soak is applied, convert 2 min damage dice for 1 auto damage.(after paying the q.point cost of course) This make super-strong novas able to dish out the punishment, even against super-tough. Of course for this to work they need the Superior enhancement, but that is easily gotten.

Social combat: I agree. It gives a good idea of scope for social combat. Half the fun of Aberrant is the politics, so it is a great thing to use. I would agree, most enhancements/power would be unnatural influence. Which means to resist it you would have to spend a willpower. How to counter act that? Remember, it is easier in exalted to earn back willpower than it is in aberrant. I would say that we replace that will a willpower roll. Needing a number of successes equal to the Nova's quantum rating. Because we have MDV and the like, we don't need to worry too much about expending willpower.

My newer edition addresses some of these issues. I sent one of the owners a copy, hopefully they will upload soon.

[metaphysician]

The problem with using min damage is it decouples mega strengths value from the size of the defenders defense. Under your rule, the other guy could have 10 soak or 100, either way, he still takes (Mega Str) dice in damage. This makes it disturbingly similar to Penetrating in Hero 5e, which is not a good thing.

[Matthew]

I had an idea while I was reading your post. Why should a quantum five nova with no mega-strength do the same min damage with a punch that Nova with quantum 5 and mega-strength. I am contemplating changing the min damage rule to just like Aberrant 1.0. To counter act the problems with that I am going to add an extra and a Mega-strength enhancement that allow you to do min damage equal to your quantum. Of course these would cost an extra quantum point to use.

In the case of the mega-strength enhancement, I am going to allow superior to work on those min damage. This way a Nova with quantum 4 could convert these dice into auto successes. *of course at the cost of more quantum points.

thoughts?

[Alex Green]

At high end a Q.bolt guy should start out passing a super-strong because the q.bolt guy has to pay quantum points for his power to work. The Mega-strength guy does not.

Several problems.

First, Abby combat generally lasts two or three rounds. Q-Cost doesn't usually come into play.

Second, "At high ends" has a totally different meaning for Q-Bolt than I've seen mentioned. Q-bolt can be power-maxed for area or infinute range or aggravated or even MIRV. Q-Bolt can have RQC put on it and then used for no cost and still keep it's advantages. Q-Bolt can have MASTERY.

[metaphysician]

Problem is, its still a kludge. Your attempting to give Mega Strength combat utility without using the most obvious and straightforward means to do so: having it add damage. All such hacks will be ugly, and prone to illogical results.

If Mega Strength absolutely needs nerfing, convert it from adding automatic levels to melee damage, into adding damage dice.

[metaphysician]

Several problems.

First, Abby combat generally lasts two or three rounds. Q-Cost doesn't usually come into play.

Second, "At high ends" has a totally different meaning for Q-Bolt than I've seen mentioned. Q-bolt can be power-maxed for area or infinute range or aggravated or even MIRV. Q-Bolt can have RQC put on it and then used for no cost and still keep it's advantages. Q-Bolt can have MASTERY.

Quoted for truth. If you start looking at the Q6+ level, mega strength starts looking alot less useful. In terms of combat utility, about the best it can manage is "Mega Strength + Mastery Claws", which is nice and all, but kinda pales next to Quantum Bolt + Mastery.

[Matthew]

It is not just mega-strength that need nerfing. It's also the reliance on Mega-dexterity. Mega-strength does add damage dice. It's your quantum x your level in mega strength in calculating the dice that is added to your to-hit and damage (when is comes to melee combat)

Mega-dexterity adds it's level x quantum to "to-hit". It does not add to damage because it effects the character in other ways. (Join battle, DV, etc.) Also you use dexterity with more skills than with strength.

min damage is the tricky part, still working on it.

Green:

I am trying to bring more ways that quantum can be used to establish more dynamic combat. If it's going to be quick and dirty. I want it to be fast pace, with lots of choices.

I believe that RQC extra cuts the cost of quantum power in high, rounded down. This means normal Q.Bolt cost 2 quantum, so it would cost only 1 with that extra. if you also added mastery, then you are looking at zero cost Q.bolt.

The counter to your argument is that while you are spending all that exp into extras and mastery for Q.bolt. I can diversify my mega-strength with cheaper(than extra) enhancements. At high end, Mega-attributes become more about support than being main lines of attack. Which I believe is how they originally designed the game to work.

[Alex Green]

I believe that RQC extra cuts the cost of quantum power in high, rounded down. This means normal Q.Bolt cost 2 quantum, so it would cost only 1 with that extra.

Yes and no. You can pull your punch and have it cost half, so that'd be zero. Granted, pulling your punch means you'd only be doing half damage, but that's half damage at range and the range wouldn't change.

Specifically, that range could be up to 300 meters and the damage could be 10[7]+acc. Basically you get to attack forever quite out of range of most counter attacks. This assumes you also have Flight+RQC, but that only needs one dot's worth.

The counter to your argument is that while you are spending all that exp into extras and mastery for Q.bolt. I can diversify my mega-strength with cheaper(than extra) enhancements.

All of the mega-strength extras are pretty weak for combat. Crush takes a full round to set up and burns through juice, and that's probably the best of the lot for general nova vs. nova use.

It seriously matters what point levels, and what kind of character build we are talking about.

Low end: If I have only three nova points left at the end of character creation and I need an attack, one dot of Q-Bolt does 4[15] at a range and one dot of Mega-Str does 7[5] in HTH. I'm not counting Q-costs because I'm assuming I bought that Q5 for other reasons.

Low end: I've built characters where in the same situation I very delibrately got Mega-Str. Mega-Str has Q-leap, so for 3NP I got a weak attack AND a weak movement... but it was a low end character and I was building him for low end battles.

Low Middle end: Disintegration (i.e. q-bolt +agg) costs 5 nova points or 9 exp.

Middle end: Generally we're talking about Mega-Strength at this range, especially with pump-able characters like with Growth. 9 nova points into growth and you have mega-str 5 for a little while. 3 dots of Q-B works less well.

High end: While it's possible to build someone with 5 dots of Strength, I've never seen it... but I have seen a number with 5 dots of q-bolt. This is especially true because 4+ dots of q-bolt gives stuff from the firearms table.

Very high end: 6 dots in Mega-Strength is brutally nerf'ed by any level of Q-Bolt + Mastery, even at one dot. For that matter it's mostly nerf'ed by the Elemental Anima/Mastery powers with Mastery.

[metaphysician]

Well, I wouldn't say its *totally* nerfed. There's alot of stuff that can be stacked up cheaply on Mega Strength. Notably, Claws, Mega Dex, and Rapid Strike. OTOH, you don't really go Mega Strength at that level for the damage, you go Strength for the other stuff.

[Alex Green]

Mega-Str 6 costs 18 nova points or 81 points of experience (although the pump powers can lower this).

It does 7[30] in combat and isn't ranged.

It also can't be powermaxed.

It has no q-cost.

Q-bolt 1 + Mastery is 5 nova points or 9 points of experience.

It does 8[36] in combat and has a range measured in many kilometers.

It can be powermaxed to destroy cities.

At 8[36] it has a q-cost of 1, at 4[18] it also has no q-cost.

[metaphysician]

Point, except you'll have a hard time getting a GM to swallow buying a new, single dot, of a Mastery level power. ::tongue

A better comparison is "Buying a sixth dot of Mega Str" vs "Buying Mastery for my Q Bolt", with the costs being 50 XP vs 23 XP. Still a differential, but nowhere near as big as you suggest.

Or, basically, you don't buy Mega Strength for raw maximum damage. You buy it so you can pick up and throw big stuff, or smack the ground for area effect attacks. Or, at the Q6 level, so you can do the occasional ridiculous damage Crush ( since Q6ers will generally spend less qp on other things, they can better afford the enormous cost of Crush ).

[Alex Green]

So how many dots of a power do we need? If the results are lopsided at 1, then going to 5 it doesn't get better. The results then become a compare between 7[30] and 40[36] (or 37 vs. 76).

[metaphysician]

True.

Not saying Mega Strength is as damaging as QBolt. What I'm saying is, its about as useful all around. You get about 2/3rds the damage capacity, but more importantly you get:

-Deadly grappling ability ( try escaping from a hold when the other guy has +20 autosux that you don't )

-Lifting capacity ( QBolts don't pick trains up )

-Throwing capacity ( not as useful for damage, but potentially very useful in team attacks or battlefield removal [ speaking from painful experience, cough] )

-Jumping capacity ( even without Quantum Leap, you jump good )

And thats not counting the very Enhancements.

IOW, you go for QBolt for raw firepower. You go for Mega Strength for versatility.

[Metallo]

True.

Not saying Mega Strength is as damaging as QBolt. What I'm saying is, its about as useful all around. You get about 2/3rds the damage capacity, but more importantly you get:

-Deadly grappling ability ( try escaping from a hold when the other guy has +20 autosux that you don't )

-Lifting capacity ( QBolts don't pick trains up )

-Throwing capacity ( not as useful for damage, but potentially very useful in team attacks or battlefield removal [ speaking from painful experience, cough] )

-Jumping capacity ( even without Quantum Leap, you jump good )

And thats not counting the very Enhancements.

IOW, you go for QBolt for raw firepower. You go for Mega Strength for versatility.

I concur, mega attributes are less about raw power than versatility. Take mega stam for instance. You only get 4/4/ soak form 5 mega stam, but you also get an increased lifespan, life saving abilites like regeneration, etc.