Um, does anyone here want to run Marvel Super Heroes?

[Heritage]

So I reaaaaally want to play Marvel Super Heroes online, and I can't seem to find a game anywhere I can trust not to die in like a month, and we all know I don't want to run another game, so I was wondering if anyone else here wanted to run it? The entire game system is available for free download here, so there's no money involved, and by many accounts it's fun and easy to play.

Any takers? ::biggrin

[ProfPotts]

Are you talking the ancient TSR version or the new, diceless, version? Both are pretty good, in their own ways - although the old one is woefully out of date with the Marvel Universe as it stands today.

[Heritage]

Are you talking the ancient TSR version or the new, diceless, version? Both are pretty good, in their own ways - although the old one is woefully out of date with the Marvel Universe as it stands today.

I was thinking of the original one - yes, it is indeed woefully out of date, but considering the state of the current Marvel Universe after Civil War, is that such a bad thing? Just my opinion ::wink

p.s. I just PMed you about joining QZ:E!

[ProfPotts]

IIRC the TSR game is Marvel around the '80s - which is fine for those of us who happen to have been reading that stuff back then (hey - I've got all the 'red & silver armour' Iron Man issues somewhere... & Secret Wars... & the black Spidey-suit pre-Venom... & all that stuff), but a bit weird for younger chaps. Also, although 'classic' in its way I seem to remember a few elements of the old game system which are pretty out of date too (such as random chargen for new characters, & no thought to game balance at all...). The best thing I remember playing the game was the very Marvel-sounding 'titles' for each level of power (like 'Amazing' Agility, or 'Remarkable' Strength) - I had some laughs playing it, but in many ways I've seen better systems.

Any particular reason you've got your heart set on that system?

[Heritage]

IIRC the TSR game is Marvel around the '80s - which is fine for those of us who happen to have been reading that stuff back then (hey - I've got all the 'red & silver armour' Iron Man issues somewhere... & Secret Wars... & the black Spidey-suit pre-Venom... & all that stuff), but a bit weird for younger chaps. Also, although 'classic' in its way I seem to remember a few elements of the old game system which are pretty out of date too (such as random chargen for new characters, & no thought to game balance at all...). The best thing I remember playing the game was the very Marvel-sounding 'titles' for each level of power (like 'Amazing' Agility, or 'Remarkable' Strength) - I had some laughs playing it, but in many ways I've seen better systems.

Any particular reason you've got your heart set on that system?

I just love the elegance of the simple FASERIP system; I've seen rules for point buy method online that I like that actually allow for a bit more creativity and balance. It was just a thought, no big if it doesn't come to fruition.

[Bahamut810]

Only thing that I really didnt like about it when I was playing it was the 'XP' system it had. It was all about enforcing a good steriotype...if you were apathetic you would lose all your fate points (I think is what they were called), and heaven forbid you kill someone even by accident.

[SkyLion]

Only thing that I really didnt like about it when I was playing it was the 'XP' system it had. It was all about enforcing a good steriotype...if you were apathetic you would lose all your fate points (I think is what they were called), and heaven forbid you kill someone even by accident.

,,

Yes the marvel system is awesome...it does take some getting used to like any system but its charm quickly grows when you see how well it works...I have rarely seen such a simple and streamlined system...it becomes practically transparent to the action happening. In fact it was so good that we adapted it for Rifts with hardly any changes...it fixed every single problem we had with Rifts...in fact it made it even better!

,,

Bahamut is coorect though....you are rewarded in game with Karma, and as such you are rewarded for Heroism and penalized for evil acts. Villains have it differently. For the time this created the perfect super hero mood. For the modern day enthusiast who is interested in representing the more gritty and violent world of modern day comics some modification will be needed...but how hard is it to change what you give xp for???

,,

Oh a side note is that karma is not just xp...it can be used to develop stunts off existing powers (much cheaper than buying new ones) but also to affect die rolls in your favor!

[Bahamut810]

I was just reading the Judges book and even villians lose Karma for killing people. Only 30 (yeah....only) but still.

[ProfPotts]

... In fact it was so good that we adapted it for Rifts with hardly any changes...it fixed every single problem we had with Rifts...in fact it made it even better!

Dude - pretty much any change to the Palladium system makes it better... ::sly Me, I run Rifts using the D20 Modern / Future rules & it works great.

I just love the elegance of the simple FASERIP system; I've seen rules for point buy method online that I like that actually allow for a bit more creativity and balance. It was just a thought, no big if it doesn't come to fruition.

A point-buy method would go a long way to convincing me about the system - when I ran it (in the late 80's) the sheer unbalanced nature of characters made using their chargen system was the biggest issue - one guy could roll a character who struggled to be better than 'Typical' in anything, whilst another could roll a 'god' (literally if he was an Asgardian or something) & have a string of Remarkable to Monstrous abilities. Then you'd roll a power (which you may not even like) & score a pathetic 'Good' rank for it... We had fun, mind (the guy with the 'Animate Drawings' power & a sketch book full of pictures of the Avengers was a hoot).

I was just reading the Judges book and even villians lose Karma for killing people. Only 30 (yeah....only) but still.

Heroes lose 10 Karma for - get this - commiting a misdemeanor (like jay walking, or littering - not to mention flying without a license, wearing a mask in public, & similar 'heroic' things which are, technically, illegal). Not only that, but they loose Karma for 'permitting' such stuff as well - fail to stop that guy littering? Lose 5 Karma... While this is great for forcing PCs to act 'heroic' (as per comics in the mid-eigthies saw being 'heroic'), many players don't like to be punished just for playing in character (it's an 'act as we say, or else' sort of a situation).

As SkyLion says, this is far from insurmountable - but it gives an impression of where the system's coming from.

Character advancement using the Karma system is also really slow: if you roll a power which starts at 'Typical' rank (rank number 5 to start) it takes 100 Karma to raise it to rank number 6 - defeating Galactus gives you just 100 Karma, & you also need your Karma to save your @$$ in-game... to raise that initial 'Typical' to 'Good' you need to pay: [100 + 120 + 140 + 500 =] 860 Karma! Generally speaking, in-game, there's little point in even trying to improve your character's stats - best to save the Karma for power stunts & the like... especially if all your're doing in 'improving' your abilities is attempting to drag them up to the level of guys who just happened to get luckier rolls in chargen...

For me the old Marvel game always seemed better suited for one-off scenarios, rather than campaigns.

Having said all this, I vote for SkyLion to run a game - since he seems the most familiar with both the system, & 'tinkering' with the system to iron out some of these sticking points. ::wink

[Bahamut810]

Oh, we get to vote now do we... ::sly

What do you say Skylion? You seem like you would do a really bang up job running a game, I think. ::happy

[Shade Sentinel]

Old Marvel superheroes. Holy throwback batman!!

Sky would be a great choice for that. He and I played quite a few marvel games over the years. The system is easy and would probably work well for online play.

Another option could be Champions...Hero system. One of my preffered mediums I must confess.

But Marvel Superheroes just makes my private parts tingle a little...in a gamer way of course! ::blink

[phoenix]

Having said all this, I vote for SkyLion to run a game - since he seems the most familiar with both the system, & 'tinkering' with the system to iron out some of these sticking points.

What do you say Skylion? You seem like you would do a really bang up job running a game, I think.

Sky would be a great choice for that.

And so handsome! ::wink ::sly

[Bahamut810]

So...is that a no? ::blush

[SkyLion]

So. I am awfully flattered at the interest but I really do have far too much on my plate to run an actual game. Playing is easy, requiring only that I show up and participate. The research and managing with multiple players is more than I can commit to. Doors have been opening for me left and right and I need to fully commit myself to my art. And trruth be told I have never really been much of a storyteller as Shade Sentinal can attest too. I can write amazingly when the inspiration hits but the best laid plans never survive contact with player characters. For this reason I have a deep admiration for those whom such abilities come naturaly. Having said that I thank you again for the compliments and I do love Marvel. Perhaps someday when I have accomplished more of my goals I will have more time to sit back and spin some yarns with you all.

[metaphysician]

*speaking up* Hero System/Champions is good, as long as you keep in mind its limits. Basically, don't expect to play an army-trashing demigod. Its *possible*, but not anywhere as easily or extremely as you can do with, say, Aberrant.

[SkyLion]

*speaking up* Hero System/Champions is good, as long as you keep in mind its limits. Basically, don't expect to play an army-trashing demigod. Its *possible*, but not anywhere as easily or extremely as you can do with, say, Aberrant.

,,,,

Sure you can...just convince the ST to run a higher point game! I love hero system I do, but its hard to go back to such a baroque system after the streamlined simplicity of white wolf...

[metaphysician]

I'm gonna have to disagree there. Aberrant is many things, but 'streamlined' is not one of them. The rules are only more straightforward in that most of the flexible options are arbitrary.

That said, you can do high point Champions, but unless you start hitting the 1500+ range, your unlikely to be able to deal with large military forces anywhere near as easily as one of the top elites could. And destroying objects with non-killing attacks is a total pain.

[SkyLion]

I'm gonna have to disagree there. Aberrant is many things, but 'streamlined' is not one of them. The rules are only more straightforward in that most of the flexible options are arbitrary.

That said, you can do high point Champions, but unless you start hitting the 1500+ range, your unlikely to be able to deal with large military forces anywhere near as easily as one of the top elites could. And destroying objects with non-killing attacks is a total pain.

,,

Perhaps that is because aberrant more sharply separates normals from supers...even 1 dot in a mega att is beyond mere mortals. However its expensive in Hero to jack your stats way up. I do kinda disagree about it being easy in aberrant. Sure a weather controller can kill a bunch of baselines or use area attaks, but what of they have thermal suits or whatever protective gear...and have you see the damage adds for the military grade hardware? Combined with anti nova tactics and stuff like mox canisters baselines can get pretty scary to alot of novas pretty quick. There are always the high level exceptions but by and large most PCs need to watch their step regardless of the game system...I mean all it takes is for some ST to get happy with theeir OMEN satellites... ::ohmy

[metaphysician]

Lemme put it another way. I've been in both a 750 and a 1000 point Champions game. In the latter case, our openning vignette involved beating up somebody wearing what amounts to Destroyer armor.

I still don't think either set of PCs were more powerful than our 150 nova point Chosen. . . and the opposition scales more readily, too.

[Alex Green]

One of the things is that 150 nova points isn't five times 30, it's more like twelve times.

Nova points are so incredibly effective at stats that most PCs spend a lot on them. So a 30 point nova may have 10 points spend on quantum costs, 10 on stats, and another 10 on powers. This is one of the big reasons why the Q3 nova is usually more dangerous and effective than the Q5 nova.

Now increase the nova points to 150, and your nova is likely still spending 10 nova points on stats and 10 on quantum costs.

[metaphysician]

Technically true, but not relevant in this case. Thats 150 nova point equivalent current status. . . but most of that was purchased via XP. I just don't have any stats for anybody in terms of total XP accumulation available.

In any case, my experience is, if you wanna do high end superheroic stuff, you want to use either Aberrant or BESM 3e. As clunky as it sometimes is, Aberrant covers the range of power tiers present in comics better than any system I've seen, though BESM 3e comes close ( with the added advantage of being a more elegant and genre-supporting system ).

Champions and M&M are both very good as well, but as systems, they work better at a somewhat lower power tier.

[SkyLion]

Marvel is great for high end also...

[metaphysician]

Aside from its tendency to under armor bricks, yeah.

[Finbar]

I'm gonna have to disagree there. Aberrant is many things, but 'streamlined' is not one of them. The rules are only more straightforward in that most of the flexible options are arbitrary.

That said, you can do high point Champions, but unless you start hitting the 1500+ range, your unlikely to be able to deal with large military forces anywhere near as easily as one of the top elites could. And destroying objects with non-killing attacks is a total pain.

What the hell kind of army are you building? Your basic 8d6 EB w/Explosive will take out an average soldier (at the very least, you can stun a number of them, assuming basic stats). A basic 250 pt character should have no problem with even a platoon, assuming a reasonable build. Given that the average Champs character has actual defenses and few novas are bullet-proof, I really have to ask what kind of soldiers you're dealing with...

[Obvious Caveat: I build power armors, so armies are usually not an issue, even with a few points. Nonetheless, most characters should have limited issues dealing with armies...]

Nova Points: I'd say that, given the NP/XP conversion rate, that nova points double in value every 30 points (so a 150 NP nova would actually by worth about thirty-two 30 NP novas. It may sound a bit nasty, but still...

Power Level: Aberrant tends to work best at a high-powered tier, but that's because of versatility/power issue (low-tier characters can either have a variety of powers or have one major power). Champs and Marvel tend to do well at any level (Champs because of how well it handles any genre, and is easily scalable), whereas Marvel tends to support characters of any power level (from Captain America to Spider-Man to the Silver Surfer)...

Bricks/Under-Armored: Heh. It's only because bricks with too much armor are downright scary....

FR

[metaphysician]

Its not the soldiers so much as the vehicles. If your talking a modern US force or near equivalent, the tanks are pretty much invulnerable to any normal firepower a team is likely to have in Champions short of the 750+ level, and you need a rather ridiculous amount of defense before you can afford to be hit by a tank gun and not be Stunned. Helicopters are even worse, as they hit almost as hard, but are faster and don't need to be within reach.

The CV advantage that heroes probably have is mostly moot, for a variety of reasons, and the Speed advantage is countered by the fact that, well, its an army. There's more of them than you.

[Alex Green]

Magnetic Manipulation: 1D RKA, Penetrating (+1/2), Area(+1), doubled area xMany, No Range (-1/2), Only vs. Metal (-1)

I think doubled area is what +1/2? In any case, our base cost is 6*(2.5+xMany(+1/2)).

Assuming we get doubled area 10 times we ended up with 45 points for this mini-nuke, which is pretty trivial considering. With a speed of 6 you through it on all 6 actions and then rest the next round to recover END (you'll probably be throwing it most actions next round too).

If 1000 point PCs refuse to buy a 45 point army killer, then that's poor planning on their part.

[metaphysician]

Oh, I'd hardly call that a mininuke. Still, it is effective. The problem is more surviving the return fire, since its going to take several rounds of fire before the targetted force gets seriously attrited.

And hey, 1000 point PCs can take on an army, its just they for the most part *still* have to actually spend some effort avoiding stuff like tank guns and hellfire missiles. You need at least Def + Con of 63 ( or damage reduction ) before you can take a 6d6 RKA hit and not get Stunned, and lots of things an army has do that much or more.

Even Gravitar, who *is* a 1000 point character who is almost custom designed for smashing armies, needs to avoid taking sabot round hits.

[Alex Green]

That's where things like range considerations and targeting come into play. How big is that AOE? If those tanks after to wade through it for even a minute before getting into range, then they won't last that long. Similarly, how exactly do the helecopters know that you're there? 6 actions is 12 seconds, during which those metal thingies will take 6 body (although this assumes a speed of 6 when 8+ is more likely).

And all of this is just off the top of my head. Apply that ranged attack and AOE to a flash attack or mechanical mind control and it probably gets worse.

[metaphysician]

And thats where the other big thing that kills most canon Champions characters vs armies comes in: range hurts the supers more than the army.

Lots of military hardware is capable of accurate fire at targets miles away, including all those antitank weapons the supers have to worry about. This is represented typically with sizable numbers of Range PSLs. By comparison, not many Champions supers having attacks with No Range Penalty or tons of Range PSLs.

So, if your using an area attack, you need to be able and willing to have radius of more than a full mile, which is both expensive and collaterally catastrophic. And if your using other attacks, you either need a long range build or you miss.

Similarly, militaries have all kinds of things ranging from binoculars to radar to spot the supers from miles away ( if not from past the ground level horizon ). Whereas a whole lot of supers, even high end ones, do not have long range senses.

As for the area magnetic zap, it either needs to be a truly enormous area, or you'd need to also buy some significant defense powers to keep yourself from getting splattered by extreme range artillery fire. You'd also need a second level of Pen to effect modern tanks. Its also one of those construct tricks the rules strongly encourage looking askance at. . .

[Finbar]

You're making three silly assumptions:

1) That I'm more interested in attacking the tank, and not what's in it. A mental blast against the humans inside or an electrical blast against the electronics will take out a tank rather easily.

2) That it's hard to take out a tank. If I destroy the treads and crinkle the gun, or just toss it out of the area, it's taken out and is no longer an issue. And you only need a STR 25 to lift it...

3) Okay, so an M1 Abrams tank has DEF [20/16] and BODY 19 (as per Champs); it's not that tough. It just means a lot of haymakers against the top for a 250 point character (assuming a 60 pt/12 dice cap). Give me Find Weakness and I'll be happy, or almost any attack with two levels of AP. And that assumes the toughest possible tank; an APC only has half of that.

Tanks aren't that bad...

FR

[Finbar]

Oh, and before I forget: Most of the ranged weapons aren't a major issue (even with a 250-point brick, we're still talking CV 6+ vs. CV 3/4 for most weapons, resulting in a 9- to hit (more likely 8- when you allow for levels and higher CV's), so the odds of hitting are 1 in 4. Even against an explosive attack (where you only need to hit a CV 3), most characters can take the occasional 8d6 attack (straight average 27 STUN/8 BOD)).

In other words, a standard group of 250-point characters against even a small group of tanks should do pretty well...if they think things through. And if I'm not designing their suits ::blush ...

FR

[metaphysician]

Means of bypassing the tank work fine, assuming you can get around the lack of LoS issue. OTOH, the problem with several of your other suggestions:

1. The tanks have considerable equipment based +OCV bonuses. Your not going to be able to count on a DCV of 8 keeping you safe. . . especially given the consequences of a good roll.

2. Haymakering from above does let you target a weaker defense portion. . . at the expense of leaving yourself exposed and vulnerable to anybody *else* on the battlefield.

3. And, in relation to 2, you underestimate the real nature of the problem. Its not that 350 point characters can't take out individual tanks. . . its that you don't get to fight individual tanks. You get to fight at least four tanks ( the minimum that are ever deployed anywhere ), with at least as many APCs and several dozen escort infantry.

4. And all of this *still* requires that the supers get into combat range, either without being detected or with sufficient speed to prevent standoff. Because tank and APC guns and missiles can shoot and hit targets from miles away, whereas almost all 350 point supers can't.

5. Oh, and regarding CVs, remember that there's alot more people shooting at the supers than there are supers, so everybody without Defense Maneuver is going to be eating DCV penalties. Not a huge issue for the brick, much much bigger issue for everybody with 20 or less defense who can thusly still feel M16 fire.

Put simply, can a team of low level supers fight a small unit of military forces and win? Sure, if they are clever. Does this mean they can take on a regiment like rampaging titans? Nope, they'd get killed. Does this mean they can take a platoon casually? Not unless they really wanna hope the dice luck favors them the entire time.

[metaphysician]

*blink*

. . .okay, Finbar, question, your not saying the 350 team can take the average tank gun shot occasionally, right? Because thats an 8d6 RKA, not an 8d6 EB. Averages 28 Body, 84 Stun. Which even 350 point bricks get KOed by, typically.

[ProfPotts]

3) Okay, so an M1 Abrams tank has DEF [20/16] and BODY 19 (as per Champs); it's not that tough. It just means a lot of haymakers against the top for a 250 point character (assuming a 60 pt/12 dice cap). Give me Find Weakness and I'll be happy, or almost any attack with two levels of AP. And that assumes the toughest possible tank; an APC only has half of that.

2. Haymakering from above does let you target a weaker defense portion. . . at the expense of leaving yourself exposed and vulnerable to anybody *else* on the battlefield.

... Presuming, of course, that the army in question are willing to fire stuff in the direction of their own tank... ::sly

I think, like most RPG stuff, that this is a situation thing: smart Champs characters can take on armies & win, even at starting points values, but then again armies can take out even high points-value characters. It all kinda' depends on who chooses the battlefield & has the best tactics.

To be honest, the same is true for Aberrant. To be immune to standard rifle fire a Nova needs to be in a game where the 'Puny Human ' option is being used (if it isn't, then all bets are off anyway) & have 34 Lethal Soak (since with a rifle & a targeted shot with plenty of extra successes - easy for a sniper - you can score a damage effect of 17 Lethal dice). That's in 'designed to be a brick' range of Soak - a guy using, say, the Shield Technique from a suite power as his main defense is in serious trouble. In fact, generally, only Mega-Stamina / Force-Field combos or similar power types will generate that much Soak on a regular basis.

In a similar way an infantry guy with a grenade launcher & shaped-charge grenades can put out a 19[10]L damage effect (again with a targeted shot & extra successes - which can be done with a shaped charge, 'cos it has no blast area). Nova-boy needs 58 Lethal Soak to be immune... & we're still talking just regular infantry here, not even anything fancy.

Nova Vs tank: 24[10]L max. damage effect - Lethal Soak of 68 needed to ignore completely. That's either a guy with nothing but Soak boosting powers, or a Quantum 6+ Nova. Going the opposite way the Nova needs a Mega-Strength of 3 to negate the tank's armour add: like the Champs character, he's probably better off flipping the thing on its side, or throwing it at another tank.

So... I don't see such a quantum difference (excuse the pun ::wink ) between the two games when it comes to 'supers Vs military' - the same stuff applies: is the character designed as a combat machine? Who chose the battlefield? Who has the best tactics?

[Finbar]

1) Misread the main gun. Sorry about that...At the same time, you're misreading my posts; I've mentioned only 250-point characters. Also, I'm assuming a group of at least four tanks (just like real-life). At the same time, I'm sort of depressed you didn't slam me on throwing tanks; allowing for a push, the best you could toss a tank is 36 feet (an IFV would go 48'). It does bring up the question how much damage a tank would do to another tank, however...

2) Getting into range without suffering an attack is easy; that's the transport specialists job. Also, don't forget invisibility and old-fashioned stealth. Also, establishing LOS on a tank isn't that hard.

3) The haymaker would expose the brick, but the brick should be able to stand a lot of damage anyway. Of course, the problem with firing on a target that close to your allies means that they are going to be hit if you miss. One unlucky hit roll followed by a lucky damage roll, and you've just eliminated a friend (an 8d6 RKA maxes out at 48 BODY, which is just 9 BODY more than needed to destroy the tank, and do damage to those inside). So I don't see the main gun being used when an opponent is on an ally all that often.

The haymaker can be aimed, BTW; I'm not seeing an issue for the team brick to nail the treads...

4) A team of tanks isn't that big of a problem. It's just a matter of forcing them to use their small guns, and then just using the brick for close work, your energy projector for range work, and everyone else as applicable. A TK expert would be useful, as would a mindblast, or just teleporting the tank up (even 50' would be useful, especially if it was targeting another tank).

If it helps...

FR

[metaphysician]

I'm saying "350" rather than "250", because in virtually all ways, 350 point supers in 5e are equal or superior to the guys in 4e. If you don't like it, well, remember that alot of those points are spent on not being no-skill munchkins this edition.

As for friendly fire, depends on if its a brick or EB doing the haymakering, and if the other tank is opposite the targetted tank or not. M1A2 fire is accurate enough that if the tanks are in a column and a brick attacks from the side, there really isn't any danger of hitting the tank instead ( or for that matter, of missing ).

Lifting and throwing, well, thats actually one of the better tactics for the supers. While the tank is 70 tons and hard to lift. . . the turret is less so. . . and mostly attached by its own weight. Closing range is harder; not many 350 point teams have group movement powers of sufficient range and speed. And gaining LoS on the *tank* isn't hard ( relatively speaking ), but that doesn't help at all for the most common LoS attack type ( mental attacks ).

Prof Potts: Point taken, but there's some important differences. Notably, your looking at the level of soak needed to totally ignore a given attack. The thing is, you can have as little as half that and still reduce each of those attacks down to a single ping die max, and in practice, each of those attacks will usually not even do that, since max attack sux are unlikely. Whereas in Champions, its virtually impossible to disregard stun from military vehicle weapons even at high levels, and 350 point superhumans will typically take stun even from an above average M-16 hit.

In turn, the difference in firepower available is considerable. Its not hard to create a even a starting nova who can kill a tank in 2-3 hits, straight out, without requiring any special targetting or tricks. For a powerful nova, its more like "one hit, one kill." Whereas for 350 point Champions supers, it takes extraordinary effort to damage a tank at *all*, and even high level supers won't necessarily be able to significantly damage one.

Put simply, yeah, intelligent tactics or beneficial circumstances apply for either set of characters. . . but all things being equal, I'd bet on the novas over the Champions, whether at 30NP/350 or 100NP/750 level.

[metaphysician]

Oh, and just to add on, even the small guns in a armored platoon, stuff like .50 caliber machine guns and the 25mm cannon Bradleys' use do significant stun versus 350 point supers.

( 15-25 defense vs 35-45 Stun per hit = even bricks are in trouble if they get hit more than occasionally )

[ProfPotts]

Prof Potts: Point taken, but there's some important differences. Notably, your looking at the level of soak needed to totally ignore a given attack. The thing is, you can have as little as half that and still reduce each of those attacks down to a single ping die max, and in practice, each of those attacks will usually not even do that, since max attack sux are unlikely. Whereas in Champions, its virtually impossible to disregard stun from military vehicle weapons even at high levels, and 350 point superhumans will typically take stun even from an above average M-16 hit.

The ol' 'ping die' is the killer though: Aberrant characters have Health Levels, not Body & Stun, & even with Mega-Stamina, unless the character has taken a load of Body Modification: Extra Health Levels, they're not going to have that many. I thought we were talking about supers taking on armies here? Even twenty or thirty infantry guys doing a 'ping die' each will take down a Nova pretty damn quick. Getting extra attack successes isn't a huge issue with stuff like Automatic Fire & Aiming (both of which, I'd guess, would be standard military tactics). That's before you even start to figure in the 'big guns'.

In turn, the difference in firepower available is considerable. Its not hard to create a even a starting nova who can kill a tank in 2-3 hits, straight out, without requiring any special targetting or tricks. For a powerful nova, its more like "one hit, one kill." Whereas for 350 point Champions supers, it takes extraordinary effort to damage a tank at *all*, and even high level supers won't necessarily be able to significantly damage one.

Tank armour negates all damage adds, so it's just the dice Vs the base 6 Soak (if the Nova can generate at least 12 damage adds to start with). So a Nova with Mega-Strength 3+ will be doing a standard 1 die of damage with a Strike (if he has normal Strength 5), up to 6 dice with extra attack successes. It takes 7 Structural Levels to reduce a tank to 'broken down', at an average of 1 success per 2.5 dice, that's 18 damage dice, on average, above the tank's Soak to 'kill' the vehicle. So, yeah, a damage-specialised Nova can take a tank out in 3 or so hits, true... but then (as others have noted) a Champs character with the right specialisation (e.g. double Armour Piercing attacks or Find Weakness) can do that too. In both cases 'special targeting or tricks' are going to help the super do the job faster & better, but aren't necessary.

On the other hand in both Champs & Aberrant you can also create supers who have no attacks capable of harming a tank. There's no reason to presume that all Aberrant characters will be combat-maxed while all Champs characters won't be: in fact, with the Nova culture presented in Aberrant, you're actually more likely to find non-combat-oriented supers (artists, media personalities, corporate manages, etc.) in Aberrant than you are in most supers games

Like I said - IMHO it's down to individual circumstances more than any inherant system bias. The systems are different, true (e.g. in Aberrant damage usually far out-strips defenses, & Novas can often only fuel their combat powers for a few dozen seconds at a time before running short on juice - Mega-Strength being the big exception; in Champs damage / defenses are designed to be balanced, & characters get to recover End every 12 seconds, even if they don't stop to rest) but I feel that suggesting that Novas as a whole would have an easier time fighting armies than Champions supers is more down to perceptions of the settings than it is to any actual game statistics.

[SkyLion]

I just wanted to comment on the whole Ping die thing...I hate this for supers genre games. IN the comics its not so uncommon for supers to actually be bulletproof...and the ones that are dont take ping damage. I did want to put a proposed rule ammendamant though for discussion. In A! there is a power that gives you a force field and if an attack doesnt break through the force field then you dont roll the ping. Makes sense yeah? COnsidering ping damage is supposed to be a sort of bruising effect. I would say that supers who buy force field or armor should be able to ignore ping damage entirely. Otherwise it just takes a whole group of normals with pistols to ping a super to death.

Now I know all you STs out there love it for the fact that it makes players vulnerable but how "realistically plausible" is it for a hero who is supposed to be bulletproof (and never takes any actual damage) to be bruised to death by pings....its silly and I dont like it and neither does the genre.

Id also like to point out that this is an invention soley for the Eon verse...other White Wolf products dont use it...

PS...isnt it amazing how these threads can digress from their intended topic... ::tongue ::wink ::happy

[metaphysician]

Honestly, I think ping's potency is exaggerated. Aside from that though, let me mention that neither I, nor anybody else I've ever played with, has ever used the armor add rules. Mostly because they only make the barest sense.

That said, you know what would make all of this moot?

Aberrant 2.0 using Exalted 2e/Scion style static DVs. :-D