Aberrant RPG - Time for a totally inappropriate question

[Nero's Boot]

I'm a gay man, so please bear that in mind as I ask my question. I'm not a homophobe, nor am I attempting to mock my fellow homosexuals, so everyone calm down.

My question is this: Who is the top in the Divis Mal/Jeremiah Scripture relationship? Who is the bottom? It might not be as clear-cut as you'd like to think. In The Authority, Apollo is much more powerful than the Midnighter, yet clearly Midnighter is the top in the relationship.

--I know, I know, totally inappropriate question, but hey, as a gay man, I'm curious NB

[Alex Green]

Mal. Script litterally worships him, and is working to bring Mal's dreams to pass, and inflict Mal's vision on all of us.

That's before we worry about Mal having the Q8, the Mega-Int 8, the Mega-Social stats, and maybe even the addicting presense. But if we do worry about those things it's unlikely to change things.

[NFVD]

I'm a gay man, so please bear that in mind as I ask my question. I'm not a homophobe, nor am I attempting to mock my fellow homosexuals, so everyone calm down.

My question is this: Who is the top in the Divis Mal/Jeremiah Scripture relationship? Who is the bottom? It might not be as clear-cut as you'd like to think. In The Authority, Apollo is much more powerful than the Midnighter, yet clearly Midnighter is the top in the relationship.

--I know, I know, totally inappropriate question, but hey, as a gay man, I'm curious NB

You sir, just won the award for the oddest question ever in these forums. Then again...this is a game where a Team Tomorrow member bangs prostitutes until their spines brake and just keeps pumping away...

I fail to see the relevance of getting an answer for this; unless you happen to be playing a gay/bi PC who meets Mal and really wants to score with him. ::biggrin

But I'm guessing the couple would be versatile with no iron-clad roles for each. Then again, it has never been specificaly stated in the books if is truly gay or bi. If the latter is the case I guess he could be bottom for Scripture and have fun topping the girls.

Personaly, I always envisioned Mal as the equivalent of a celibate omnisexual. He's so god-like he can just love people regardless of their gender but too "way up there" to waste time in actual sexual relations with others. Yes he has romantic feelings but I don't see the "dark god" getting down and dirty. I assumed his relation with Scripture was a platonic, but intense, one. More like a deep "guy love" personal friendship thing.

On another note, I could never understand why the writters decided bring up Divis Mal non-hetero nature in the first place. Don't get me wrong, I do not have any issues with it but this trait adds nothing to the character and it was never explored in the cannon. In fact it makes him a somewhat weird herald of a supposed "new race" that he will have no direct role in fathering because he doesnt do it with women.

If Mal had, say, fallen in love with Caestus Pax, or gained an ubber quantum power that allowed him to father his own children unaided then that would open some storytelling possibilities.

IMHO WW made Mal like this purely for the "WTF Divis Mal has arms?" shock-factor-knee-jerk-response and/or the "cool! this game is edgy, progressive and gay-friendly cause the main baddy is gay" response it would originate. It is not the first time they decide to plug some abnormal trait to a signature npc but then do nothing with it.

I think the only example of well-thought, sound gay characters in the game where the sexual orientaton is actualy an enriching, relevant factor is the "Ironskin" Andy Vance / Jake "Dragon" Korelli couple. Now these guys come off as two cool men you'd like to be friends and party at the Amp Room with. In fact Andy's sexual orientation was the defining factor in his eruption has he was assaulted by thugs bent on "beating up the fag", then he becomes a near-invulnerable nova. Cool, a sound concept and idea.

The Queer Nova Alliance on the other hand...Oy Vey! This is pure shock-factor blurb, just look at the members described in the APG. It's more like a collection of deviants than anything else.

Wow, I guess I trailed off a bit there. So my final answer to your top/bottom question would be that it depends on how you see Mal's nature, weather he is trully gay in your game and exactly what his powers are. He might change into a female or even hermaphrodite form when doing the wild thing with his paramours for all we know. ::laugh

[phoenix]

Mal. Script literally worships him, and is working to bring Mal's dreams to pass, and inflict Mal's vision on all of us.

Ask your average gay man why he's chosen to be a top or bottom, and one thing I don't think he'll mention is whether or not he's "more powerful" than his partner. ::wink

I think the only example of well-thought, sound gay characters in the game where the sexual orientaton is actualy an enriching, relevant factor is the "Ironskin" Andy Vance / Jake "Dragon" Korelli couple.

Does sexual orientation have to be an enriching, relevant factor? Mal is old, older than anyone any of us knows. Has he always been gay, or is it a result of his time with Mercer and long periods of careful introspection?

I actually like that they made him gay and then "did nothing with it," like you said. It's a pretty progressive stance that a fictional character can be gay without having gayness be a significant aspect of their personality. After all, I wouldn't list heterosexuality as one of my traits when describing myself for the first time, although it'd probably have to come up after a while. If people are shocked by Mal's casual gayness, perhaps they should re-examine their worldview. ::happy

Anyway! Who's the top?

Definitely Scripture.

Keep in mind that Mal is largely defined by his unrequited love for Max Mercer. Of course, Max Mercer is not a gay man, but it should be clear to everyone, especially Mal, that if he were, he'd be a top. So it's my assumption that Mal is a bottom, for compatability's sake.

One final note: for Mal, the "uber quantum power" of fathering his own children is definitely within reach. He wouldn't even have to do it biologically...

[NFVD]

Does sexual orientation have to be an enriching, relevant factor?

No. Not anymore than any other factor in a character. But if it isn't relevant, why mention it? It's like mentioning Darth Vader's secret stamp collecting fetish. Does it enrich the character/plot/setting in any form? No? Then why bother?

For all we know Caestus Pax might be a closet homosexual which expresses his insecurities via egomania and homophobia (he has both these traits). His sexual orientation is not disclosed but his attittudes are. This gives greater freedom for a GM to use the character on his game should he choose to do so.

Mal However is hinted out at being gay but there is nothing in his behaviour that comes of it. We never see him kiss Scripture or anything like that. We never see him coping with the fact that he believes novas are the future race but his orientations deny him from leaving descendants, etc.

After all, I wouldn't list heterosexuality as one of my traits when describing myself for the first time, although it'd probably have to come up after a while.

Precisely. Unless it is a factor that affects the setting why bother with it?

If people are shocked by Mal's casual gayness, perhaps they should re-examine their worldview. ::happy

You are being intolerant of other people's intolerance, my friend. tsk tsk ::laugh

[astronomer]

But Mal's gayness is very much a factor in his life. Start off with his "unrequited love for Mercer" and how this shapes his interactions with Mercer and the Society. Sure, his break with Aeon comes from his philosophical differences in the end, but frustration/tension doubtless had an influence as well. Almost 20 years of unfulfilled attraction to Mercer can't be ignored. When he encounters Scripture (in the 70's?), he finds a compatible soulmate that accepts him fully. Platonic at least, physical quite likely, though it's never explicitly mentioned. And yet, he's macho enough to draw Narcosis to him, and she'd purely love a physical relationship with him (the photo of them seems to show him enjoying her company -friend or lover, who can say?). Gay yes, bi perhaps. As for who's the top in the Mal/Scripture relationship, that's pretty much up to you in your campaign. Mal as the uber-macho man, fits in well with what we know of him publicly. Privately, could he enjoy relaxing and letting Scripture take charge? Absolutely. Canon leaves things vague enough that either possibility is true. And maybe they take turns, or are truly equal. All up to the GM, 'cause canon just doesn't say. ::smile

[Captether]

I was under the impression that Mal loves Max Mercer, and that love was more submissive (ie bottom) in his desires towards him. In that train of thought (no pun intended) it seems Scripture is who he is "with," in which case I would say hes the "top." Really, Mals true feelings can be kept hidden from anyone.

Am I way off here? I am a hetro man, so I could be way off. But in my own relationship experience, I know the ghost of an unsettled and unrequitted love can really wreck your later relationships.

[ezekiel]

I was under the impression that Mal loves Max Mercer, and that love was more submissive (ie bottom) in his desires towards him. In that train of thought (no pun intended) it seems Scripture is who he is "with," in which case I would say hes the "top." Really, Mals true feelings can be kept hidden from anyone.

Am I way off here? I am a hetro man, so I could be way off. But in my own relationship experience, I know the ghost of an unsettled and unrequitted love can really wreck your later relationships.

Why does more submissive = bottom? Unless I really have a poor conception of what it means to be a "top" or "bottom", shouldn't it just be the difference between who wants to f@ck and who wants to be f@cked? Let Mal and Scripture decide on their own what they feel like, when they feel like it...

[Captether]

Why does more submissive = bottom? Unless I really have a poor conception of what it means to be a "top" or "bottom", shouldn't it just be the difference between who wants to f@ck and who wants to be f@cked? Let Mal and Scripture decide on their own what they feel like, when they feel like it...

Again; Im not gay, so I could be waaaay off here. But I always understood it that within homosexual relationships there is a tendancy towards who wants to be "on top" and more "masculine," and who was "on bottom" or "femenine" in the relationship both in and out of the bedroom (again; no pun intended).

I knew of one gay man (a friend of my half-sister) that always ended up in relationships where both partners were "tops" (forgive me if this is a misuse of terms). It made these relationships unsatisfying, as neither got the kind of satisfaction that they desired.

This must make such relationships awfully frustrating and difficult. Its hard enough finding someone who is morally, physically and emotionally compatable, without gender roles within the same gender getting in the way. Yikes!

What say you homosexual eonites? Am I way off here?

[SkyLion]

Why does more submissive = bottom? Unless I really have a poor conception of what it means to be a "top" or "bottom", shouldn't it just be the difference between who wants to f@ck and who wants to be f@cked? Let Mal and Scripture decide on their own what they feel like, when they feel like it...

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Well said...As a hetero man of imposing stature I can play the "top" quite well. However, like many men I am sure, especially tall men, it makes it that much more satisfying to relax and let the woman take charge. Ive read in many mens and womens magazines that many men feel the same way, even to the point of wishing women would initiate relationships rather than play the passive role and make us do all the work...gets tiring after awhile! ::wink

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My real point here is that I think under the surface we are more alike than we like to give credit to...to me any relationship worth the time and effort will be dynamic enough to accomodate playing with our roles and personalities (Or maybe thats just the creativity of a roleplayer...). I wish people more often would realize that so many of the issues that get broken into dualities...man/woman, straight/gay, republican/democrat are really issues fundamental to humanity...people...in general.

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Now...werent there some roleplaying games around here somewhere? ::rolleyes

[phoenix]

My real point here is that I think under the surface we are more alike than we like to give credit to...to me any relationship worth the time and effort will be dynamic enough to accomodate playing with our roles and personalities (Or maybe thats just the creativity of a roleplayer...). I wish people more often would realize that so many of the issues that get broken into dualities...man/woman, straight/gay, republican/democrat are really issues fundamental to humanity...people...in general.

Well said.

Now...werent there some roleplaying games around here somewhere?

How kinky ::wink ...

[Captether]

I wish people more often would realize that so many of the issues that get broken into dualities...man/woman, straight/gay, republican/democrat are really issues fundamental to humanity...people...in general.

Well said sir!

Personally, I would say that the existence of those differences, and their roles in our lives are very important. Though such dualistic tendencies might seem counter productive, their presence, and the seeming need for them is predominant in the human existence.

Without contrast, we all turn to Grey, and lack even the hunger for truth. Were the modern world to have its way, political correctiveness would rob us of our poets, our prophets, our pain-filled dreamers that show us where hope IS.

Thats my two cents anyway.

[SkyLion]

How kinky ::wink ...

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::tongue

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Personally, I would say that the existence of those differences, and their roles in our lives are very important. Though such dualistic tendencies might seem counter productive, their presence, and the seeming need for them is predominant in the human existence.

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Dualistic thinking and differences are separate ideas. I was referring more to how corrupt powermongers use dualistic terms to divide people and issues...the claaic newspaper technique of presenting an issue with two opposing sides or viewpoints. The danger with this is that people start to think of things in either/or terms...your either with us or against us.

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Diversity on the other speaks to what you were really getting at. There are MORE than just two sides...issues, human feelings and perspectives have way more than two possible choices...but such complexity doesnt serve those who who dumb down the issues to sound bites and use bi-partisanism to turn people against each other and therefore destroy the potential power of Unity that could be achieved if we were to realize how alike we are. Case in point...those 1% of the corporate masters who who all the keys need us ( the " masses" ) way more than we need them (we dont). Keep people bickering over artificial dualities and all of a sudden you can sell weapons to two sides.

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I know I am digressing a bit, so to bring myself back around I will point out another example. The rainbow was used to be a symbol of diversity...it was originally intended to mean peace and understanding not only between the diverse rainbow of sexual preferences and gender roles, but between all people. Unfortunately, it has become so iconized as a symbol of gay pride that its original meaning has been diluted. Sometimes I will wear a little rainbow out, and people may ask or assume that I am gay...when they do I use it as an opportunity to educate them on its meaning explaining to them how Diversity is necesary for our survival...even fundamental to a functioning ecosystem.

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I suppose I have so much to say because during high school I was in the drama club and it turned out that the drama teacher was the mentor for the US club as well ( United Sexualities). All of my drama club homies were pretty much in that club as well, so once a week at lunch times when we were hanging out they would put on videos and such to illuminate these issues we are speaking about. A few members were gay or bi but we had several hetero couples in the group as well. This was al quite shocking to me really, as I was still atneding the local fundamnetalist bible church every Sunday. It marked the first time i realized that I was homophobic, not because I had any negative experience with gay folk, but because I had been TAUGHT TO THINK AND FEEL THAT WAY. It was around this time that I started to really questin things for myself and open up to a larger world.

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Hows this for an innapropriate conversation?!?! ::sly

[Wanderer]

And yet, he's macho enough to draw Narcosis to him, and she'd purely love a physical relationship with him (the photo of them seems to show him enjoying her company -friend or lover, who can say?). Gay yes, bi perhaps.

As a matter of fact, I've always been under the distinct impression that Mal was bi. First there's the Narcosis bit, then from a comment of Bounty, I assume that at least some of the Nursery's childrewn were fathered by him. True, his prevailing orientation appears to be gay, with the younghood unrequited crush of Mercer, and the steady partnership with Scripture, but I don't really think that Mal would pass the opportunity to father at least a part of the next generation of godlings personally. True, he might very easily have Quantum Conception, who knows. OTOH, it is likely that Narcosis was miked the sterilty cocktail just like Orzaiz, so she 'll have to wait for an hand from Bounty or a try at Fertility. I guess she'll eventually get her chance to play Madonna to novas, though. Mal definitely seems to like her.

[Hyper-Focus]

IMHO WW made Mal like this purely for the "WTF Divis Mal has arms?" shock-factor-knee-jerk-response and/or the "cool! this game is edgy, progressive and gay-friendly cause the main baddy is gay" response it would originate. It is not the first time they decide to plug some abnormal trait to a signature npc but then do nothing with it.

First off, watch who you're calling abnormal in polite company, please. Second, the presence of queer (used here as shorthand for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered) characters in White Wolf games is noteworthy. WW is the only gaming company I have seen so far to include queer characters in any number. This is part of the attraction of WW games to me and many other queer gamers. We like seeing ourselves reflected in the games we play, even if it is through a mirror darkly. True, the inclusion of queer themes may in part be for their shock value...but wasn't shock value and mature role playing the reason we're playing WW games in the first place? If we wanted moral absolutes and tidy theologies we'd be hacking our way through a 10foot-by-10foot stone corridor in AD&D 53rd edition (now with even more charts and tables!).

Simply put, I want my role playing to be edgy, progressive and receptive to queer themes. Because so much of the rest of my life is spent dealing with the staid, conservative, and (sometimes violently) heteronormative world around me. At the very least, I can imagine the people writing the games (and getting the money I pay for them) probably wouldn't be grossed out by the sight of me and my boyfriend holding hands or begrudge us joint healthcare and hospital visitation rights.

I have my quibbles with WW, of course. Every lesbian is knock-out femme, usually with incredible death dealing powers. Its chainmail bikini's for the grownups. Outside of "Montreal by Night" gay men are either victims or saints. Oftentimes, a persons queerness will be the focus of their entire character and/or personality. This actually decreases my appreciation of those characters. Andy Vance fits this mold. Hes a victim (the circumstances of his eruption) and works in one of the gayest occupations imaginable. He uses the word "fabulous" a lot. You think he is a sound concept because he has a narrative you are firmilar with (RIP Matt Shepard) and can therefore easily integrate into your worldview without too much work. Mal's queerness (I'd say hes bi...a Kinsey 4 or 5) is integrated into his character without overtaking it entirely. Also, its a refreshing change to have a gay man as a bad guy without him being a pedophile...that is to say, to have his villany dependent on his gayness.

The Queer Nova Alliance on the other hand...Oy Vey! This is pure shock-factor blurb, just look at the members described in the APG. It's more like a collection of deviants than anything else.

Secondly, watch who you're calling a deviant in polite company, please. Drag, S/M, and group sex (Glamora, The Master, and Tommy Orgy) may not be your cup of tea, but we've suffered quite enough from being labeled deviant and therefore somehow deserving of the hatred, bigotry, and threat of violence we face. And if T2Mites arent 'normal' enough for you I dont know what is.

Im not trying to flame you Edsan. I just wanted to give you and others on the forum my view. Queer characters should not be confined to their expected roles and WW should not be derided for the few times they manage to break out of stereotypes.

And by the way...gay men arent JUST tops or bottoms. Maybe Mal is versatile.

[NFVD]

First off, watch who you're calling abnormal in polite company, please.

Secondly, watch who you're calling a deviant in polite company, please.

And if T2Mites arent 'normal' enough for you I dont know what is.

Im not trying to flame you Edsan. I just wanted to give you and others on the forum my view.

Well I will consider myself just slightly grilled then...thank you very much. I think you can turn the spit over and start barbecuing my other side. ::tongue

If you had a problem with anything I wrote, if I offended your sensibilities or something similar you should have PMed me rather than select me from the entirety of people posting on this thread and lecture me publicly.

Yes you were lecturing me "first off, watch out" has an imperative and patronising ring to it.

I had no idea the queer divison of the PC Police was reading this thread. ::laugh

I assumed that if people got riled up about anything posted here (because, lets face it, it is a sensitive subject weather we like it or not) they would have the common sense to take a deep breath and refrain themselves from pointing fingers around.

I fail to understand the purpose of most of your post, to be honest. You could have just said "I think Mal is versatile because of A, B or C". Instead you select me personally, and go on a tirade on why WW is the best thing since sliced bread but then state you don't like how they portray queer characters, elaborate on how queerness is a sine qua non condition for your gaming and criticise my choice of words on multiple occasions.

My friend, I respectfully do not give a toss about your sexuality, your gaming or what you want in it. I don't even know you. I don’t know anything about your personal life. God forbid me from pointing my finger at you and say how you should run your gaming or how you should write your posts. I also quite frankly do not care if my choice of words upset you. It was not my intention to do so and that is enough for me. Also, consider I am not a native English speaker as aren’t many people here. You might ocasionally see unfortunate choices of words.

I am of course interested in your opinions provided they are about what is being discussed on the thread and as long as they dont involve personal jabs at other forumites because you are disenchanted with their choice of words.

You obviously have issues derived from your lifestyle inclinations. If I may make two humble suggestions, which you have total freedom to ignore: Leave them at the door when you come into these forums and do not lecture people publicly.

It goes without saying that you are free to not give a toss about anything I've said. ::happy

If you want to discuss this further PM me. This thread was simply to determine our opinions and what role Mal plays in his alleged relation with Scripture. We have already given our two cents on that. I only posted back publicly now to return your favour.

[SkyLion]

Sorry Edsan but I think he was in the right. Its not nice to call people deviants or abnormal simply beacause their sexuality is different than yours. And thats coming from a straight guy.

[NFVD]

Sorry Edsan but I think he was in the right. Its not nice to call people deviants or abnormal simply beacause their sexuality is different than yours. And thats coming from a straight guy.

Skylion, dude. I asked to be PMed on this issue if more discussion is warranted. I will answer you via a PM.

[SkyLion]

Edsan, these forums are probably some of the nicest I have seen. Everyone here is way cool, and more importantly way respectful. If you are going to make comments on a public forum then it is in a public place. I see no reason to try and argue about things via PM. I for one, would rather not spend the time. What Hyper and now myself are attempting to do...in a friendly way mind you...is to show you that a few of your phrases or word choices lacked some sensitivity.

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I dont know where you are from, culturally or what have you, but regardless of how you define deviant or abnormal in the dictionary, the sensitive person (as Hyper was pointing out) realizes that such terms carry connotations of bigotry to the extent of violent hate crimes.

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I was once at one time very homophobic. I had been taught to be by my church and family. I was fortunate that my drama-club friends and teacher were all members of an US club (United Sexualities). I can tell you it was uncomfortable at first, having my paradigm shifted and perspectives opened up. One of the things that the club did was to screen movies and documentaries, many of which chronicled the history of hate, fear, violence and repression against people with "alternative" sexual preferences. The truth is, such practices are not abnormal nor deviant...they only appear to be so due to widespread ethno-centricities.

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You will probably be angry for not responding to your PM, but this issue is too important to sweep under the rug. I sincerely hope that you arent however, and appreciate hyper-focus's heartfelt and polite request to be aware of the labels you use, and the sensitivities of certan demographics. Coming back and telling Hyper he has "issues from his lifestyle choices" when he merely asked that you respect them and understand that your choice of words could very easily offend people. Were not flaming here, we are trying to raise awareness and senstivity for people who have been persecuted.

[phoenix]

::huh

Okay -- from what I can tell, Skylion is just offering his opinion, and not commenting as a moderator, about this conversation.

But I think a bit of moderation is needed here, so Mod hat on.

Hyper-Focus: You're fine. You say you didn't intend to flame anyone and in my opinion you didn't. At most, your remarks were a bit pointed, especially the ones that Edsan quoted, but there's nothing wrong with that.

Edsan: Hyper-Focus may have a point about using terms like "abnormal" and "deviant" when talking about gay people, but oh well. Your first post in this thread was also fine. However, your response to Hyper-Focus crosses the bounds of politeness and good taste. And there's nothing wrong with using a thread to deal with semi-related issues that come up in that thread. Admittedly we're somewhat outside the intended use of this thread, but threads are allowed to stray from their original topics a bit.

SkyLion: I feel a little weird about making this post, because I try not to contradict other moderators and you posted before me. Please contact me if you disagree with the way I'm handling it.

::moderated Okay, Mod hat off. Just try to listen carefully and treat each other with a bit more respect. And just for the record, the next time I see someone refer to another poster as "the queer division of the PC police" that person will be banned so fast they won't know what hit them. ::rolleyes ::sly

[SkyLion]

Phoenix! You are correct. i wasnt commenting as a moderator, but as a mediator. Dont feel weird...er unless thats your lifestyle choice. ::wink ::laugh !