Aberrant RPG - Knockback and Unconscious

[NFVD]

Ok I need some help here from veteran Aberrant players/storytellers. I have just recently discovered the two aforementioned rules and I can't quite get how they work:

Knockback: If the damage dice pool exceeds the target's adjusted Might he gets knocked back.

Ok, but is this the damage dice pool before or after Soak? And since its the damage dice pool and not actual damage sucesses that count to calculate knockback this means an attack that does zero damage (i.e. the attacker fails to roll a single 7 on the damage roll) can still project someone several meters back.

Unconscious: If the attacker rolls damage sucesses greater than the target's Stamina+(Mega-Stamina x2)+2, the target blacks out.

Now damage sucesses = lost health levels, because in Aberrant Soak gets subtracted from automatic damage sucesses and damage dice before they are rolled, i.e. if you are rolling damage dice you are going to wound someone unless you don't get them 7's.

The problem is that a Baseline with Stamina 3 needs to suffer 6 health levels of damage in one go to "black out", that will put him at Crippled -4, unable to walk, etc (assuming he was at full health to begin with), not very different fro blacking out. Stamina 4 baselines would automaticaly drop to incapacitated. And of course, Stamina 5 people or Novas with Mega-Stamina are essentialy impossible to "black out" because they must suffer enough damage to die or at least get craploads of bashing-turning-into-lethal health checks.

What is the point of this rule?

[ProfPotts]

Knockback: If the damage dice pool exceeds the target's adjusted Might he gets knocked back.

Ok, but is this the damage dice pool before or after Soak? And since its the damage dice pool and not actual damage sucesses that count to calculate knockback this means an attack that does zero damage (i.e. the attacker fails to roll a single 7 on the damage roll) can still project someone several meters back.

It's damage dice pool before Soak. The rule is obviously optional, depending on the style of game you're going for, but I find that knockback in fights makes the action a lot more dynamic. After all, there's little more disappointing that launching an awesome attack just for the target to Soak the lot for 'zero effect' - knockback often means you can have the visually dramatic effect you want, but don't always need to have the damage which goes with it. With Quantum Powers like Immolate (or Enhancements like Shockwave & Thunderclap) - which produce relatively low amounts of damage - the knockback can be the best bit (especially Vs baseline targets)!

Remember that all those Novas with Mega-Strength will have some nice bonuses to their Might totals - so they're always going to be a challenge to knockback; & that anyone with Density Control [increase] &/or Growth will be really hard to knockback. On the other hand, is there any reason why a guy with, for example, bullet-proof skin (or a kevlar vest) should be any harder to knockback than anyone else?

What is the point of this rule?

There are two main points to the unconsciousness rules - one: average baselines can be KOd without needing to be beaten to a bloody pulp to do it. This is a good thing in most games, & helps to get Nova characters 'pulling their punches' without the fear of being totally ineffective. Two: not everyone has the same amount of Health Levels in Aberrant - with 30 Nova Points you can whip up a character with a full sixty extra Maimed Health Levels, for example - the unconsciousness rules means that such a character is still vulnerable to being KOd from (potentially a lot) less damage.

[Centimane]

Here's a related question.

The rules for knockback say, regarding density increase, that each "active dot" adds 3 to the target's effective Might skill total. This interests me because, as some have already surmised, my War Journal character Lorelai 'Brick House' Yevtushenko has the Extreme Density extra. According to the rules for this extra (from the APG), she can increase her density to any level, with the only limit being the size of her quantum pool. On the other hand, Lori only has a few actual dots in the power itself. So does she gain a bonus to her Might skill from her actual dots in the power itself, or from the number of levels she currently has active?

[ProfPotts]

I'm pretty sure that when they say 'active dot' they actually mean 'active level' - i.e. each success / doubling of weight adds 3 to the character's effective Might for resisting knockback. IMHO, natch.

[Centimane]

Ah. That's what I thought as well, but the language was a bit confusing. It would make sense since, in House's case, 13 active levels puts her at just under 540 tons! It would make sense if someone that heavy was more or less impossible to knock over. And at mega-strength 6 and 13 active levels, she'd have an effective Might bonus vs. Knockback of 69 levels, which is more or less immovable.

[SkyLion]

Now go for the Immovable Object Enhancement on top of that! ::sly

[Blue Thunder]

I'll ask this here, since it seems appropriate.

A hypothetical situation...this hasn't come up yet in any of my games...but what about knockback+ multiple attacks? As in...what if someone with a power, Mega-Strength strike, or Hyperspeed Slam/Strike hits someone hard enough to give them knockback, then strikes them again in that round (or an ally hits them during that round) while the target is still experiencing knockback (as in, he's still soaring from the previous strike)?

Basically, imagine the Flash, and imagine he has enough force in his punch to knock Thug pretty far and pretty fast with a punch. Now, Flash punches Thug, causing knockback; Thug is lifted off the ground and starts soaring backwards after the punch. But Flash can perform multiple actions in a round (insane Mega-Dex, high Mega-Wits, Multitasking, Quickness, etc.) and has insane speed (insane Mega-Dex, enhanced Movement, Hypermovement, etc.). Flash doesn't want to just punch Thug once, he wants to pummel poor little Thug to a pulp. So Flash runs in front of where ever Thug is soaring towards and punches him again, causing knockback, but in another direction. Then he repeats the process, again and again; Thug gets knockback with every strike, and by the time he hits the ground he's got multiple fist indentations in his body and he's dead. It's like Flash is playing ping pong, but he's the only player, running back and forth from both sides of the table, but still managing to hit the ball every time.

Uh...how's the best way to handle this with game mechanics? Also remember that other novas can be involved. Like what if two PCs are knocking an enemy around in the air or on the ground like they're playing Pong? Should there be some extra difficulty for "aiming" a knockback attack? Like if Flash wanted to strike Thug towards Wonder Woman specifically, so Wonder Woman could also deliver a knockback punch back? Is a +1 or +2 difficulty mod appropriate? Basically, the punch still connects if they make the normal roll to hit, but there's an added difficulty of +1 or +2 over that one, and if the nova makes that, they successfully "aim" the target they're hitting with the knockback effect.

Since Thug is basically airborne thanks to knockback (or at least moving along the ground against his will) does he get any kind of dodge roll to resist further attacks that round, and is there some kind of bonus or penalty for hitting him, as if he were running/sprinting?

I don't have the rulebook with me, so I'm going on what little I remember about knockback mechanics.

[Finbar]

For multiple knockback, you would need to be able to hit the target, let it fly, run to the where it lands, and then hit again (repeat process as needed). The character would need a full action for every attack (not a series of of split actions; the move would need a full action, whereas each attack could be a split action from the first action). So, you could move (full action), attack (split action), move up to him (full action), attack (split action), etc.

Luckily, there are powers that give full actions...

[On the other hand, this isn't to say multiple characters couldn't gang-knockback the same target, assuming that each could hit the same target towards each other; the +1 would be a good modifier. I just want to know what would be accomplished other than just showing off...]

FR

[SkyLion]

I disagree with the full-move action Finbar...If you can move faster than the velocity at which the target flies and can cover a distance that is half or less your full movement allowwence then you could...

[Finbar]

1) At least that gives speedsters reasons to buy as many levels of Quickness as they can...

2) And, yeah, as long as they pay one full action for all of their movement in that round, then as long as all their movement is less than their full run for that round, they're covered...

FR

[Alex Green]

Order of operations says you attack, they take KB. There's nothing that says you can't move again and attack again, but movement considerations are going to be a problem.

[Centimane]

Y'know, considering that knockback is supposed to be just a dramatic system, why not just allow the speedster to hit his opponent several times, and then apply knockback?

As far as the whole "hit 'em once, then run around behind 'em and hit 'em again" thing? I suppose that would require some numbers crunching. A speedster with a decent mega-dex (3) and enhanced movement can move 80 meters per turn, or 40 meters and still be able to take an action. It takes 20 damage dice over the victim's Might skill total to cause them to fly back 40 full meters (2 meters per damage die over the Might skill total). Even a typical baseline is going to have a strength of 2 or 3, giving them a might rating of 2 or 3, and meaning that an attack against even a perfectly average baseline will need to do at least 22 dice of damage before a mega-dex characer with enhanced movement couldn't catch up with them and hit them again. Now if a character wanted to hit a person multiple times in this manner then yeah, they'd need to be pretty damn fast. As far as using Hypermovement to do this, you would presumably be using a hypermove strike or slam, and in this case your full sprinting rate is your attack. So the same character (with Dex 5 and M.Dex 3) and Hypermove of 2 could sprint at (dex x 15)+20 meters per turn, or 140 meters per turn. It would take a full 70 dice of damage over the victim's Might skill total before a speedster with hypermove couldn't catch up with them. In this case, since Hypermove requires you to move at sprinting speeds, you could only perform a second attack through the use of Quickness.

Or at least, that's what the numbers tell me. On the whole, it looks like it'd be pretty damn difficult to perform more than two such attacks in a round for most player characters.

[Alex Green]

Y'know, considering that knockback is supposed to be just a dramatic system, why not just allow the speedster to hit his opponent several times, and then apply knockback?

Because if someone is attacking 6 times around with lots of Mega-Strength it's broken to just have their foe stand there and take it.

Case in point: The DMD has a wits rating of 5, he could buy one level of Mega-Wits, get Multi-threading, and start throwing 6 attacks at a time.

But I do like the "run around in circles" idea.

[SkyLion]

Actually Cottus you can choose to do half damage with an attack, which for a speedster would mean moving at half hypermove...it actually says in the hyperspeed attack section that you canchoose to lessen the damage by any amount if you declare before hand. This is deadly Alex, considering that without a powered form of movement a person flying from knockback wont be able to dodge any attacks, like if someone else took a potshot with a q-bolt.

,,

Its good we are discussing such tactics...very important for accurate genre simulation...fastball special anyone? ::cool

[Finbar]

Er....The Fastball Special is an entirely different attack, and MUCH simpler than a speedster playing tennis with a target. Of course, if you want an interesting treatise on the the dreaded Fastball Special, you should get the Super-Hero genre book for Champions...Heh. What is the effect of a shape-changing density-shifter when thrown by character with Mega-Str 5? Heh.

FR

[Centimane]

Alex, I don't want you to be offended by this or anything, but I'm going to disregard your argument for now. Saying "it's broken" isn't actually saying anything at all, because most of the Aberrant combat system is already "broken" if our goal is to represent things from a "realistic" standpoint. Knockback is specifically listed as a "cinematic" effect that's "appropriate" to the genre and adds excitement to a fight scene, and it's implementation is left up to the ST and the players. And seeing as how very little of the Aberrant combat system is accurate to what actually happens in actual combat, I personally have no problem introducing yet one more inaccuracy into the system that adds drama and action, and makes for less numbers crunching. Again, no offense intended, it's just that you're not telling me anything I didn't already know before I made my last post.

SkyLion, my point was that Hypermove only gives sprinting speeds, not running speeds. You can move up to half your running speed and take an action, not half your sprinting speed.

I did the math to figure out the relationship between sprinting and running and, in the case of someone who developed Dexterity from 1 to 5 and then developed mega-dexterity from 1 to 5 (so from 1 to 10, essentially), the results are as follows:

Running Speed Expressed as a Percentile of Sprinting Speed (rounded out):

Dex:

1: run: 13 m, sprint: 23 m: 57%

2: run: 14 m, sprint: 26 m: 54%

3: run: 15 m, sprint: 29 m: 52%

4: run: 16 m, sprint: 32 m: 50%

5: run 17 m, sprint: 35 m: 49%

Mega-Dex:

1: run: 18 m, sprint: 38 m: 47%

2: run: 19 m, sprint: 41 m: 46%

3: run: 20 m, sprint: 44 m: 45%

4: run: 21 m, sprint: 47 m: 45%

5: run: 22 m, sprint: 50 m: 44%

As you can see, the faster you become overall, the greater the disparity between running and sprinting speeds. On the whole though, it's safe to assume that full running speed is about half of your sprinting speed and half running speed would be one quarter sprinting speed. So in the case of hypermovement, it can be assumed that you can move a maximum of 25% percent of your sprinting speeds, and you should be able to take another action afterwards. So in the case of my aforementioned example nova (with Dex 5, M.Dex 3, and HM 2, with the enhanced movement enhancement), he could sprint a maximum of ((dex x 15)+ 20m)x(M.Dex + 1 (4)))= 560m per turn (wow!). 25% of that is 140m per turn. So a nova with these statistics can move a full 140 meters per turn and still be able to take an action as normal. However it should be noted that in the case of a Hyperspeed slam/strike it is assumed (as per the text on pg. 246) that the nova is moving at full speed when they make the attack. Presumably, moving at 25% of full speed would also reduce the damage from this attack by 75%. Our nova, moving at full speed, adds 6 dice to his tackle damage normally, so at half running speed he would instead add 1 die of damage. The tradeoff for this is that he can still take another action afterwards.

As far as dodging attacks while flying through the air? Seeing as a how a character with mega-dex can dodge bullets without seeking cover, and a nova with mega-dex 4 can pluck bullets out of the air, I'd at least allow these characters to make a dodge roll while flying/falling from knockback, though I'd probably add a diff modifier as well. And remember that blocking an attack is also a viable option in this situation.

[Alex Green]

OK, so why are we considering it then? If the system is unrealistic and and the idea is mechanically broken, then I don't see why this is a good change.

Worse, the proposed solution appears (at least to my eye) to be even more unrealistic.

Superman fights superman clone. He punches him with his full strength, so presumably he's moving his arm as fast as he can. So now he manages to move his arm, what, even faster than he can so he can punch him again? Why does the second hit do all the KB from both the first and the second hit and why doesn't the first hit do any KB at all?

[Centimane]

Why are we defining a normal strike as the "maximum speed" that a person can launch a strike? Or the kick, or whatever? What exactly is the logic for that? In real life, do you always punch or kick at exactly the same speed if you're throwing "normal" punches or kicks? Does your uppercut have the same velocity as your jab? And why, if a strike that does x amount of damage is enough to knock around one person that weighs y lbs. with a Might total of (x-n) (where n is any integer greater than 0), is it not enough to knock around a person who weighs the same amount, but has a Might score of x+1? What exactly is stopping the knockback? What exactly is forming the wall that prevents a person from flying backwards at least 2 meters (and that is quite a distance)? In "real life" it's follow through that decides whether a person will actually fall backwards, and this is because enough follow through overcomes a person's ability to maintain balance, but where's the mechanic for any of this in the rules (either variant)?

There's just as many assumptions and just as much whitewashing in the assumption that a normal strike will always cause knockback as there is in the assumption that it won't always cause knockback. And, according to your interpretation, Rapid Strike just ceased to be worth its purchase price unless you're a weakling with no real hope of actually causing any knockback (unless you're saying that this is the one and only exception to your rule).

[Alex Green]

And, according to your interpretation, Rapid Strike just ceased to be worth its purchase price unless you're a weakling with no real hope of actually causing any knockback (unless you're saying that this is the one and only exception to your rule).

Rapid Strike has it's own rules and does a max of +5 dice in damage.

That's very far away from letting someone with Hulk level strength unload on someone five or six times and have no KB until the last strike when it all stacks.

[ProfPotts]

It's an interesting one, this.

My take tends to be that, as long as you don't get any mechanical benefit from describing an action in some specific way, then you're most likely okay to go ahead & describe it like that. With that in mind the easiest way for a speedster-type character to do the 'playing pong with an opponent' attack is just to use it as a description for a power max (p.147-148): this means it can be described in spectacular terms when it's used, but can't be used each & every time. In effect what you're doing is a Hyperspeed Strike (p. 246-247) in combination with a Rapid Strike (p.159), yet trying to squeeze a little more damage out of it (hence the power max).

Going the number-crunching route is difficult for several reasons, not least being the fact that the game doesn't actually tell us how fast someone is travelling when they get knocked back (or thrown, or perform a Quantum Leap, etc.) - just the distance. For short distances this doesn't matter much, but for really long distances you can't just presume that the entire distance is covered in a single turn (3 seconds) or less (the velocities quickly get stupid: multiply distance covered in a single turn in kilometers by 1200 to get kph - a Mega-Strength 1 character with Quantum Leap would achieve a minimum velocity of 120,000 kph just using his auto-successes for the Might roll... ::ohmy ). On the flip side you can't just presume that a character suffering knockback for a short distance takes a full turn to get there... or takes 1 second... or moves there instantly... they just don't give us enough information to go on.

Then again, if a character has the Traits to perform an attack which does knockback, & still have one or more actions spare to catch up to the target & hit them again (before the target or anyone else likely to interfere has an action), then there's no reason not to let them describe it as 'hitting the guy when he's still flying through the air'... as long as they don't expect any extra bonuses on top of what they'd get if they ran up to him after he'd completed his knockback & hit him again. This is (obviously) the difference between just describing something in a cool, dramatic, comic-book way (which is good), & trying to cheat some extra damage out of the system (which is bad).

As for targeting a knockback inducing attack (or a Throw or something similar) to hit one opponent with another, well that's just good tactics. The description of knockback (& Throw) doesn't suggest that the direction should be random, so there's no reason a character can't 'aim' his opponent. As for hitting someone else - well, something the size of a human is technically an area attack so the target will generally need to Dodge (rather than Block - although I'd allow someone a 'Block' if they tried to catch the hurled figure, & Mega-Strong characters could probably Block anyway - batting the hapless 'pong ball' aside, etc.) - being an area attack also means it can't be aimed with pinpoint accuracy (just smacked in a general direction). Stats-wise I'd say it'd be easiest to just use the successes from the initial attack as the attack successes for the 'person hurling' accuracy; although if you're worried about this tactic being overused & abused you could always use the attack successes as the attack dice pool for the secondary attack: e.g. Brick scores 3 net successes on his attack roll & hits Pong with a strike which does knockback, sending Pong hurtling back towards his teammate Ping. Now Brick's player rolls a 5 dice attack to see if Pong actually impacts Ping (3 successes + 2 dice for an Area attack = 5 dice), & scores 2 successes. Ping, not wishing to see any further harm befall her teammate, tries to catch him, & scores 3 successes on her Block roll - thanks to the successful catch neither Pong nor Ping take any extra damage from the knockback.

[SkyLion]

Remember that all those Novas with Mega-Strength will have some nice bonuses to their Might totals - so they're always going to be a challenge to knockback

,,

I was just musing on knockback the other day and was happy to come across this thread. I did want to point out (and yes this is a bit nitpicky but I feel it is highly relevant) that the wording of the rules doesn't apply in the way Potts said it does.

,,

Specifically the knockback rules say compare damage dice (before soak) to the Might skill total, while Mega Strength adds automatic successes to Might rolls...

,,

For determining knockback you don't actually roll, so IMO M Str wouldnt keep you from being thrown back by a mighty punch and I believe this is what the knockback rules were meant to simulate...Superman gets knocked back all the time even if he doesnt take any damage but this would be impossible to do if his Str added to his Might skill total. Knockback is based on how much mass you have holding you down and you dont have to be super massive to be super strong in Abby or comics.

[Alex Green]

For determining knockback you don't actually roll, so IMO M Str wouldnt keep you from being thrown back by a mighty punch and I believe this is what the knockback rules were meant to simulate...Superman gets knocked back all the time even if he doesnt take any damage but this would be impossible to do if his Str added to his Might skill total. Knockback is based on how much mass you have holding you down and you dont have to be super massive to be super strong in Abby or comics.

Another staple of Superman is him standing/flying there taking those kinds of punches and not moving. The difference is him knowing the punch is coming. We could represent this by having "resist knockback" be an actual action.

[metaphysician]

Possibly as an alternative, 'Resist Knockback' is a free action, but you have to be aware to take it. So, a surprise attack, sucker punch, any attack that successfully stuns the target, or any attack *on* a target that is stunned or otherwise incapacitated, would produce knockback. As would any attack at all, if the victim voluntarily allows knockback.

[SkyLion]

Normal punches maybe, but not super strength punches. I cant tell you how many times Ive seen Superman or the thing get knocked back through building after building. When Supes just stands there and smiles its just a normal schmuck. Energy Blasts, Punches and the like have all sent him flying, even when he is flying himself...

,,

M Str damage adds should not (according to the knockback rules) add to the Might Skill total. Just like regular Mega Dice, which are not reduced by say, Multiple Actions ( once the vase dice pool is zero you just cant roll Mega Dice or no). Auto Successes are added to Might Rolls but arent included as Might Skill total....you never roll them...

,,

On the other hand, the knockback rules dont mention growth...with a x8 to mass its effectively 3 active levels of density increase, so should give +9 to resist knockback.

[Alex Green]

Every time the Hulk or Doomsday or someone like them shows up, sometimes they send Supes flying (mostly when he doesn't know it's coming). But as combat gets serious they slug it out toe to toe.

[metaphysician]

This is one point where Champions has it right: knockback is based on damage dealt ( not inflicted ), modified by a separate dice roll based on things like "is the target on the ground or airborn?"

Aberrant has too many dice rolls already for this method to be feasible, though.