Aberrant: Prometheans Unbound - Shapeshift

[Blue Thunder]

Three important topics to discuss:

Issue 1 - Physical Aberrations

The issue of using Shapeshift to remove physical aberrations has come up before, so I'm going to make a ruling on it that will apply from this moment onward.

You cannot use Shapeshift to remove physical aberrations. You can use Shapeshift to hide, cover-up, or otherwise conceal most of these aberrations though.

To conceal an aberration, you must spend successes from a Shapeshifting roll. One success conceals a minor aberration, two a medium aberration, and three for a high-level aberration.

If you were to have Hardened Skin, and wanted to appear as if you had human skin, you could cover your hardened skin with a layer of soft human-like skin that feels normal to the touch. Your Hardened Skin would still exist, it would just be hidden underneath.

Not all physical aberrations can be "concealed" though. Permanent Power, for instance. In the case of Jack's Permanent Power (Bodymorph: Liquid Metal), which gives him a permanent Density Decrease 2 effect, he cannot conceal it. However, he can use Shapeshift to give himself two dots of Density Increase to bring him to a normal level. In this case, I'm allowing him to 'make up' for part of his aberration's effects, but he'll still appear to be made of silver liquid metal, no matter what form he takes, thanks to his Bodymorph: Liquid Metal, which I will not allow to be concealed (it's a permanent effect from an aberration, and I'm always hesitant to allow aberrations like those to be negated at will).

Some phsyical aberrations are so simple and basic that they can, in a way, be altered. Jack's Androgynous aberration for example. Concealing that one is as simple of giving him a few more masculine or feminine traits.

When someone with physical aberrations uses Shapeshift, those aberrations come with them if they aren't concealed. If they have Green Skin as an aberration and they Shapeshift into a dog, then they'll be a green dog. They'll need to conceal the aberration or it will always be there. Not all aberrations apply to every form a nova takes, of course. Jack's Androgynous wouldn't carry over if he were to shapeshift into a dinner plate.

Whether or not a specific aberration can be concealed is ultimately up to me, so if there's any doubt, just ask.

Issue 2 - Shapeshift Limitations

Now the next issue, something I'm sure everyone is going to love. Not really.

Shapeshift is probably the least-defined power in the entire Aberrant book. So many details are left up to question and interpretation that it can be downright aggravating. The ability allows for a ridiculous degree of power with just one dot, letting a nova replicate almost any power he needs without much restriction.

So...I've decided that I should make some minor limitations. Thus, Shapeshift will be treated almost like a suite power. Almost.

For every dot in Shapeshift, you choose two powers/enhancements. You can now replicate those with the normal rules under Shapeshift. If you want to replicate a power/enhancement that you haven't chosen to specialize in, then it will cost you double qp.

Body Mods are a little different; you can choose two Body Mods instead of a single power/enhancement. So if you were to gain a new dot in Shapeshift and wanted to choose all Body Mods to specialize in, you would get to choose four of them instead of two of them.

I feel this is fair. It's treated like an uber-suite power. Not only do you get to choose pretty much any physical/biological-based power or enhancement as part of your suite, but you get two per dot. And you can still shift into other powers.

Also, you automatically gain the ability to use Sizemorph (Grow) and Sizemorph (Shrink) at one dot each, even without taking them as specialities; this is considered the natural ability of shapeshifting in general (you still need to gain more than one success to change size though, as per normal Shapeshift rules). Using either of these up to one dot costs normal qp, anything at two dots and beyond costs double unless you specialize in them. You also still have the ability to appear as a generic "other person" so you are allowed to copy the Mr. Nobody enhancement at normal cost without specializing in it. You can conceal physical aberrations as normal. And finally, you can still change into things like dogs, trees, vases, bicycles, etc. like you normally would be able to.

So really, the only thing I changed is that any power you don't specialize in costs double. There might be a few kinks to work out, just bring up whatever bothers you.

Issue 3 - Allowed and Disallowed Powers/Enhancements

It's up to the Storyteller to decide which powers/enhancements can or cannot be copied with Shapeshift. So if you have a question as to whether or not a certain power can be copied, just ask here.

To get things started, Invisibility cannot be copied.

[SkyLion]

All of that is well within your rights as ST of course, though you have flown pretty far afield of the power's description. Persoanlly I think the power is pretty well spelled out in its description...limit of dots in power equal to dots in shapeshift and, unless specifically warranted, and approved by the ST, only physical powers may be duplicated.

,,

For example, in Trans-D, BN lets me duplicate an invisiblility effect, as optical camoflague, but this is a factor of his shifting defined as more of a malleable energy form, and the fact that he has the mega perception to be able to actually do something as detailed as mega perception.

,,

But thats a different game, like I said. Lay down the law as you will in yours of course. Im just glad Im not playig Esteban *here*, as these restrictions are abit to complicated and stifling for my taste.

,,

just $0.02

[Alex Green]

Question: If I want to Shift into a generic person (i.e. no one specific), and I don't have "App Alteration" as my speciality, does that cost me double?

Same question if I want to copy someone and don't have Copy Cat?

only physical powers may be duplicated.

IMHO Shapeshift doesn't let you duplicate powers. It lets you simulate doing that as part of altering your shape. Usually that's not much of a difference, but it can be important.

For example someone with the power armor can simply have +3 soak, and can define that effect however he feels like. Someone with Shapeshift is pretty much limited to making their skin super tough and/or putting armored plates over it.

[Bahamut810]

Wow...thats...uhhh...wow.

More comments after I think about it a little....

[SkyLion]

Someone with Shapeshift is pretty much limited to making their skin super tough and/or putting armored plates over it.

Its semantics really...physical is energy.

I was thinking about this while I was with my last client..the one advantage to BT's way is that you *could* with his approval uses shapeshift for more obscure applications by buying it as a "suite" power.

Esteban can make armor by creating scales...or he can reinforce the electron bonds holding his shape togeter..like I said, semantics.

And just to note that this way of thinking comes much close to many of the shapeshifting type characters in comics....some shifters, like beast boy for example can only create a set amount of animal shapes, and he has the constant aberration: green skin. Other shifters however, can become robot, spaceships, or other mechanical type things...its all in how you define the power. Being able to increase and decrease mass ala density control is also common...in the Marvel U, this is explained as actually pulling or storing mass in some alternate dimension the shifter accesses...

Agreed, however, that however one defines it it should remain consistent.

[Alex Green]

IMHO Shapeshift doesn't let you duplicate powers. It lets you simulate doing that as part of altering your shape. Usually that's not much of a difference, but it can be important.

So maybe I should put down an instance where it'd be important, right? That Armor example wasn't very important, nor would Regeneration be.

The typical example is Bob wants to become a bird (presumably he has 2 dots by then).

He gets 7 succ on his power roll, the effects he buys are:

1) Eagle Form

2-3) Eagle Size (Shrinking x2)

4) Flight (wings)

5) EM Vision (eyes of the eagle)

This is fine... except that it isn't. Flight the power gives you the ability to fly into space and to go at 300 kph. Google says Eagle flight speed ranges between 35 and 44 m.p.h (call it 70 kph). Eagle eyes see from far distances (telescopic), but they don't have the rest of the EM Vision package. Put a different way, IMHO Bob-as-an-Eagle should have a top speed of 70 kph and not have microscopic vision.

Someone with flight can define it as wings and fly at 300 kph, someone with wings can not define that as the power flight even if that's what he's having to buy. The power is simulated, not duplicated.

[SkyLion]

Put a different way, IMHO Bob-as-an-Eagle should have a top speed of 70 kph and not have microscopic vision.

Except that Bob isnt an eagle...hes a nova with the shape of an eagle...

Someone with flight can define it as wings and fly at 300 kph, someone with wings can not define that as the power flight even if that's what he's having to buy. The power is simulated, not duplicated.

In that case, just get the bodymod if you want that self-imposed limitation.

[Alex Green]

Except that Bob isnt an eagle...hes a nova with the shape of an eagle...

What are you saying here? Can Bob shapeshift into an Eagle, flap his wings and soar at 300 kph into space?

I've got the book right in front of me and it seriously stresses that you're only shifting your shape (and the word "simulate" is used 5 times).

[Centimane]

Three important topics to discuss:

Issue 1 - Physical Aberrations

I tend to agree with what you said under this heading, although I wouldn't have gone so far with the number of successes. Still, it's fair to make people pay something to get rid of those pesky aberrations, so on the whole I think it's fair.

Issue 2 - Shapeshift Limitations

I tend to disagree with this ruling only because it complicates a power that, IMHO, was one of the simplest powers to use and govern in the book. This new system adds a number of new wrinkles that make for a much less elegant outcome.

For instance:

A couple of things to point out: your writeup is a little unclear concerning powers/enhancements, and bodymods. You made a point of mentioning the difference between bodymods and power/apps by saying that a person can choose two bodymods per dot, but it says immediately above that a person gets to choose two powers/apps per dot as well, and then it goes on to say that each dot allows a player to choose 2 powers/enhancements/bodymods. So what's the difference?

Also, it isn't entirely clear: if Jack (for an example) chooses Armor as one his powers, does he get to develop armor up to the limit of his dots in Shape Shift as per normal, or is he limited to the number of times he chose it?

Further; what about qp expenditure? Does someone need to spend 3 qp to activate each "technique" as with EA or EM, or is it still just 3 qp for everything that you can normally do, or 6 if you try something you can't normally do?

In addtion; you do realize that this new ruling means that only a nova with maxed shapeshift can accurately mimic more than two or three animals/creatures? Yes I realize that you said a shape shifter can still change basic shape as per normal, but what about accurately mimicking all of that other stuff? For instance the example used in the book (turning into an eagle) requires 2 dots Sizemorph: Decrease, Flight, and Claws, and EM Vision if you wanted to go for the eagle eyes. That right there requires 2 dots in shape shift just for a basic eagle, 3 if we wanted the eagle-level eyesight. I mean taking copycat as a "technique" means you can copy people to your little heart's content, but with only a maximum of 10 "learned techniques" even a Q 5, Shape Shift 5 nova is somewhat limited in the number of animals and objects he can accurately reproduce.

Then there's the problem of nova points vs. experience. At startup you're paying the same for the 4th dot as you are for the 1st, but in-game (which is when any of us would be using this system) buying the second dot of Shape Shifting costs 7 xp, but buying the fourth costs 21. So if I buy Armor (a level 2 power effect) with my second dot, but then I really want to buy Tendrils and Spines with my fourth, I have to pay three times as much? For 21 xp I could buy 2 tendrils that each extend out to 4 meters, spines, and some extra limbs thrown in for good effect. With EA or EM this isn't much of a problem, because there's an across the board increase in both scope and effect. Not so with Shape Shift. A large number of it's possible effects gain no significant bonus for having more or less dots in Shape Shift (while others, noticably powers, do).

So basically, with this system, anyone who wants to not be frustrated with the fact that they just paid way too much xp for the ability to mimic a bodymod or enhancement is going to invest only in powers. And there's all of 8 powers (not including Inviz) that can arguably be duplicated by Shape Shift (these are: Level 1 powers: Bioluminescence, Claws (limited to physical claws), Level 2 powers: Armor (again, only physical), Bounce, Density (either Increase or Decrease), Flight (requiring wings or some other physical manifestation), Poison, Sizemorph (either)). And Density control comes essentially free according to these new rules.

So basically you're likely to end up with novas who have Shape Shift 3 or 4, never bother upping to the 5th dot, and don't need to worry as much about upping mega-stam either since they need fewer successes to realize their maximum potential. All the rest of their xp is going to go into developing random bodymods and enhancements that are either free (and permanent), or much cheaper than Shapeshift with the (relatively minor) side effect of taking longer to develop.

To me this is worse because it turns Shape Shift into something you take so that you can have a bunch of extra powers going at the same time, rather than something you take so that you have the very cool ability to mimic a bunch of different characteristics and generally look cool. Because I'm sorry, but I'm not going to spend 14, 21, or 28 xp so that I can grow a couple tendrils and disperse my organs, suddenly be catfooted and able to leap farther, and have two extra arms and the ability to regenerate. Instead I'm going to spend significantly less, buy all of those (for a total of 35 or 37 xp), have 6 or 4 xp left over from what I would have spent, and have most of those effects any time I want, and for free, and a dot of mega-dex and mega-stam and mega-strength thrown in for grins and giggles (also permanent, also free). Then I'll go ahead and use those 6 or 4 xp and buy either a dot of FF (cuz lord knows I just got me some mega-stam with all those xp o' mine - if I didn't already have some) or some Claws.

Anyway, I hope you see my point. I understand your frustration with an easily abusable system, but if you just apply a certain amount of judicious ST control and hold us accountable, I don't think there would be any kind of problem with the normal rules. And you'll also notice that basically none of the players think that the old rules were unfair or unbalanced and we're the ones that rules like this actually affect. Yes, you are the ST and you do have final say, but we are the players and we should have some say in things like this, and it's a little... unorthodox...to say the least for you to spring this on us after the game's already started and powers have been chosen and points spent.

Edit: I just realized I did my math wrong above. Tendrils is 3 xp, dispersed organs is 6, catfooted (assuming you don't already have mega-dex, and thus granting mega-dex in addition to the enhancement) is 6, hyper-leap is 6 (same assumption as above), 2 extra limbs is 6, and regeneration is 6 (again, same assumption). The total then is: 3+6+6+6+6+6=33 xp, or 3+6+5+5+6+5=31 xp if you already had the relevant mega-atts.

[Blue Thunder]

Question: If I want to Shift into a generic person (i.e. no one specific), and I don't have "App Alteration" as my speciality, does that cost me double?

Same question if I want to copy someone and don't have Copy Cat?

Appearance Alteration doesn't let you disguise yourself, but I see what you're getting at. Your character can shift between dozens of human appearances.

Altering minor cosmetic aspects of your physiology seems like the most basic use of Shapeshift. It was the book's Shapeshift text that pointed out the Mr. Nobody enhancement as being an option, so thats why I brought it up specifically.

The book says "Looking like a generic 'other person' requires only one success. Imitating a specific person requires at least two successes" I see no reason to change that.

I'm mostly thinking of the Mega-Physical enhancements here. I'm a wary of some of the Mega-Strength enhancements, specifically the ones geared as attacks. I can't see how Shapeshifting can give someone Crush, Thunderclap, or Shockwave. If we were to allow someone to alter their body to the point where they can stomp their foot down and cause a small earthquake, then surely we should also allow Mega-Intelligence enhancements (by altering the brain) and all manner of Mega-Appearance enhancements like Awe-Inspiring and Seductive Looks...which have nothing to do with altering shape.

IMHO Shapeshift doesn't let you duplicate powers. It lets you simulate doing that as part of altering your shape. Usually that's not much of a difference, but it can be important.

Pretty much. Like if you get Flight, it's because you grow wings. If you get Claws, it's because you actually grow claws. The only way to gain powers and enhancements through Shapeshift is by altering your shape, and you only gain powers to represent those changes. And even then, there are limitations. Like the book says, you can turn into a dragon, but can't give it fire breath.

Being able to increase and decrease mass ala density control is also common...

This isn't Marvel. That power isn't even presented as one of the options in the Shapeshift text, and for good reason. Shapeshift is for altering your size and shape, it isn't for letting you replicate any power that you could imagine a person's body performing. I let Bahamut's character increase his density because it fits in with his character's permanently tainted body, that of a liquid metal creature. To me, it would make sense that he's able to perform that kind of action the same way your "energy" character or whatever from BN's game can use Invisibility (which I still don't quite grasp, but it's not my game, so whatever). Jack using Density Increase fits with the way his character's physiology is set up.

This is exactly what I meant by "not well defined" The text states the power is for altering shape and size. You can sprout claws, grow wings, turn into a book, make yourself as small as a cat, grow protective scales, grow horns, etc. But then we get into the debate over just how far you can alter your physiology. To what extent can you alter yourself?

Should it let you use Density Decrease? I say no. Decreasing your density so you can phase through a wall? That's not what Shapeshift does, it has nothing to do with shape and size. I suppose I should also argue that, in a realistic world, decreasing your density doesn't let you pass through solid objects at all...otherwise, air would pass through walls (and our bodies, for that matter).

You would have to define how you're using DD. Like what if you turn into a puddle of water? But that brings up another issue: if you Shapeshift into a puddle of water, you should be able to gain Density Decrease 1 or 2, right? Well, that depends on if Shapeshift actually let's you turn into water. That seems like it falls into matter Chamelon and Bodymorph territory.

So...Should it let you use Matter Chameleon or Bodymorph? If Shapeshift really lets you alter your physiology, then why would these not be an option? They sound perfect, in fact. If you can turn into a metal desk, then why not let you turn into a metal person? The answer: because you can't turn into actual metal. You can try your damnest to replicate metal, but if someone were to take a small chip from you and study it, it wouldnt be metal, it would be flesh. When you Shapeshift into a metal desk, you can assign dots to Armor to make your frame harder, but you won't be actual metal.

(In the case of Bahamut's character Jack, he already is metal, so he actually can turn into a metal desk simply by altering his shape. However, just like a fleshy nova would have problems turning into actual metal with Shapeshift alone, he would have trouble turning into actual flesh.)

Should it let you use Psychic Shield? Surely, your brain is part of your body. You could use Shapeshift to physically cut off certain neurons and such, thus limiting the effectiveness of telepathic scans. Right? I say no. Phychic Shield does not fall into the category of Shapeshift. You could Shapeshift the Two Brains Body Mod, but that's the extent.

And then we could go into a dozen other powers. Should it let you use Homunculus? Poison? Immolate? These all could be argued for and against, but it all comes down to how far of a change Shapeshift itself can make.

All of the examples above are restricted for one reason. They have nothing to do with shape. The power's name is even Shapeshift. Shifting shape. The description of the power points out shape specifically as the extent of what you can do with the power.

I've got the book right in front of me and it seriously stresses that you're only shifting your shape (and the word "simulate" is used 5 times).

Which is kind of what I'm trying to stress as well. Shapeshift's extent is changing shape, and with more than one success, size. The example in the book is that if you Shapeshift into a dragon, you cannot give it fire breath (a Quantum Bolt). Someone could argue that you could shift yourself a fire-producing organ of some kind that projects flames...but that isn't Shapeshift anymore. Shapeshift is for changing your shape and size, altering your physiology to let you breathe fire is way out of bounds. You can gain Claws and Armor and Sizemorph by turning into a dragon, but only because those are the direct results of changing your shape and size.

Issue 1 - Physical Aberrations

I tend to agree with what you said under this heading, although I wouldn't have gone so far with the number of successes.

I'm actually agreeing with you here, looking back. Successes on Shapeshift will be needed for all kinds of other things, so one success for any aberration is more fair.

And there's all of 8 powers (not including Inviz) that can arguably be duplicated by Shape Shift (these are: Level 1 powers: Bioluminescence, Claws (limited to physical claws), Level 2 powers: Armor (again, only physical), Bounce, Density (either Increase or Decrease), Flight (requiring wings or some other physical manifestation), Poison, Sizemorph (either)).

Bioluminescence? No. If it's defined as something like Chromatophores, something similar to what deep-sea fish use in the dark, then yes. You could turn your hand into a flashlight, but having it actually use Bioluminescence to emit a beam of light faces the same problems as turning into a dragon and using a Quantum Bolt fire breath.

Bounce? No. The name is misleading. It sounds like it lets you bounce around like a kickball, but the power itself transfers kinetic energy, it really has nothing to do with being "bouncy"...the bouncing effect is from transfering kinetic energy and momentum. That has nothing to do with altering shape and size. You could make your skin more elastic and stretchy with Flexibility (basically, stretching arms and fitting through cracks is altering your shape), but Shapeshift can't let you absorb and redirect kinetic force/damage, which is what Bounce does.

Density Increase? I'm iffy on the issue.

Density Decrease? No, see above.

Poison? No. That has nothing to do with altering shape.

but if you just apply a certain amount of judicious ST control and hold us accountable

That's the problem here, I can't trust someone with a power they don't understand. You and SkyLion seem to have misinterpretted the power entirely. Alex Green seems to understand it perfectly though. The power is, and it repeats this several times, for changing shape. This means Tendrils, Spines, Claws, Armor, looking like another person, and looking like a household appliance. This does not mean Density Decrease (not shape-related), Poison (ditto), and Invisibility (ditto).

I tend to disagree with this ruling only because it complicates a power that, IMHO, was one of the simplest powers to use and govern in the book.

You're right that the power is simple. It's simple in that it lets you change your shape. Simple as that.

But it gets a whole lot more compicated when readers just look at the power's title and assume it means "gain the powers of anything I can theoretically morph into" when it isn't.

**********

I'm going back on the whole "suite" thing I proposed above. The reason I proposed it is because every character with Shapeshift seems to have a different idea of how they'll use it. The Colony's Shapeshift is barely like Jack's, for instance.

But damn...I'm glad I brought it up, cause most of you completely overestimate the power's scope anyway, and I'm glad this is all out there.

[Bahamut810]

Alright...I have two takes on this, my 'rules take' on this and my emotional take.

First off...my 'rules take'. Part one I can understand. But I dont agree with your reasoning. IMHO you are selectivley choosing which aberrations you can 'cover up'. If he can make a 'soft coat' around him for hardened skin, whats to stop Jack from making a 'hard coat' around him for perm power: liquid metal?

Part two leaves a lot of questions...like what CC was talking about. First off, you arent clear as to the QP cost of what this is going to be. I would assume it would still fall under the standard 3qp for a transformation...but if it mimics a suite power then It could also be 3qp per power mimiced...which means that during the scene that Jack transformed into the 'metal titan' he would have drained himself significantly which puts him at a significant disadvantage for something that happens naturally with him (and is has never drained him before according to the book).

You also imply that Jack would have to purchase how many levels he could simulate with the auto-growth/shrink at one level. I assume that this is not the case though...so I will skip this.

As for the how many techniques that can be taken...I count (potentially) 45 in the main book (counting all the potential Enhancements and bodymods). So this rule automatically gimps the PC to less then a Quarter of what he was able to take before at 5 dots (becuase remember...there are a lot more abilities you can take with all the suppliments). The only 'suite power' that comes close to that is Elemental Master which has 15 techniques available and can only take 5 (which is still a solid third of what is available). Of course the QP it takes to use them may be different...

I know you are trying to add defination to this power, but IMHO this is not the way to do it...communication about what the PC can and cant do is much better (In Jacks case, if he wanted to take some M-perc enhancements, just say no!).

The third item is in the rules and should be between the PC and the ST. Like Jack should really have no reason to have Analytical Touch or Bloodhound.

Now for my emotional response on this. I dont like it. If this was brough up *before* I made a character based around the powers I probably wouldent have had a problem with this. As it is I have had bad experiences with GMs changing the rules on me midgame, gimping the characters I made. Especially in games where we are given large amount of points and such to start with so we can make powerful characters. To be frank...it ticks me off.

If you do decide to take this route I am not sure if I will stay in this game.

[Alex Green]

Bahamut, go back and re-read his 2nd to last paragraph in his previous post.

RE: Density Increase

I'm iffy on how this could be used in a way that would actually be... well... useful. If you want to morph into a steel beam, then DI obvious plays a part in there. Ditto a stone table. But a stone statue isn't going to be able to move. A stone man probably needs bodymorph or Matter Cham (as our liquid metal man already has Bodymorph that solves this issue).

Just increasing your mass without changing anything else doesn't seem (to me) to be the same case as gaining enhanced smell or eyes. Put the nose of a dog and the eyes of an eagle onto a human face and your basically there.

[Centimane]

Bioluminescence? No. If it's defined as something like Chromatophores, something similar to what deep-sea fish use in the dark, then yes. You could turn your hand into a flashlight, but having it actually use Bioluminescence to emit a beam of light faces the same problems as turning into a dragon and using a Quantum Bolt fire breath.

I fail to see the distinction you're making. Unless you're nitpicking about possible dice-pool sizes or something. The point is that a shape shifter could cause his body to glow. Okay, great.

Bounce? No. The name is misleading. It sounds like it lets you bounce around like a kickball, but the power itself transfers kinetic energy, it really has nothing to do with being "bouncy"...the bouncing effect is from transfering kinetic energy and momentum. That has nothing to do with altering shape and size. You could make your skin more elastic and stretchy with Flexibility (basically, stretching arms and fitting through cracks is altering your shape), but Shapeshift can't let you absorb and redirect kinetic force/damage, which is what Bounce does.

Okay, I can see your point here. I concede, and concur.

Density Increase? I'm iffy on the issue.

So am I, but I'm also iffy about Density Increase as a stand alone power. However, if a nova can radically alter their size (up or down the scale), then I fail to see how they couldn't Increase (or decrease) their density. Sizemorph Increase increases your density by a factor of 8, and all that mass just sort of appears. I completely fail to see the difficulty in gaining a paltry x2 gain in mass, without having to also worry about expanding one's frame in all directions at the same time, when compared to what Sizemorph Grow gives you. Where is the "iffy"-ness? (or at least, where is there more iffyness than there is with the Sizemorphs?)

Density Decrease? No, see above.

Why? See above. I can see a problem with levels 4 and 5 of DD, but just decreasing density? How is that some flagrant abuse of the power? I guess if Flexibility is allowed then it would hardly ever be an issue for me, cuz that's about as far as I could ever see myself wanting to push it, but you're picking nits at this point.

Poison? No. That has nothing to do with altering shape.

That's only if "altering shape" is being defined as altering gross shape without any kind of delicate internal changes being possible. And at this point you are defining other people's powers for them. If a shape shifter wants to create the ebola virus inside himself and unleash it on an unsuspecting population, I'd say 'no', and wonder what the player was thinking. If a player wanted to grow a poison sac and use it on an enemy, I'd say 'sure' and let them go about their business.

That's the problem here, I can't trust someone with a power they don't understand. You and SkyLion seem to have misinterpretted the power entirely. Alex Green seems to understand it perfectly though. The power is, and it repeats this several times, for changing shape. This means Tendrils, Spines, Claws, Armor, looking like another person, and looking like a household appliance. This does not mean Density Decrease (not shape-related), Poison (ditto), and Invisibility (ditto).

All that means is that we didn't understand how you personally had defined it, and I don't think that's something you should hold against us. If I have Stamina 5, Mega-Stamina 5 and Shape Shift 5 and I want to change into a pitcher of water, I should be able to cuz that's a big-ass dice pool, and I'm a friggin' nova! (and a pitcher of water is just a shape, with another shape inside, and it's a much simpler shape than I am on top of that) But how am I going to do that without using a little bit of Density Decrease? With the same dice pool I want to mimic the Predator or that Invisibility suit from Elites. The suit in question is defined as being an entirely physical effect, with no energy input needed. I have 15 dice in my pool, and I'm at least Q 4, but I can't even do what some Backing 2 gizmo can do?

Poison is such a lame power in general that I don't even want to waste time arguing about it...

Density (whatever) is less "iffy" than Sizemorph (whatever)?

Apparently it's perfectly understandable to be able to suddenly put on about 1400 lbs. and grow 6 feet, but if I just want add on the extra 300 or so it would take to be as bulky as a gorilla (which generally weigh 300-450, but are no more than about 6'1" in height) I'm just as apparently a power-gamer who only took Shape Shift to abuse the system?

People don't question Sizemorph only because it's in the writeup for the power.

And what about Flight? Alex's point was pretty damn good. His solution was equally so. But it would apply equally well to all of the other, more offensive, powers.

You're right that the power is simple. It's simple in that it lets you change your shape. Simple as that.

Oh really? So it's about changing dimensions is it? In that case I should be able to mimick pretty much all of the Spatial Manipulation techniques except possibly Askew. Yes, I know, I'm being facetious, but so we're you when you wrote the above. ::wink

To clarify, I don't like your idea because it's complicated, requires me to pretty much relearn how a power works, and it was sprung on us after the fact. None of these things are good, and at least one of them could rightfully be called bad form on your part. If we did a poll, and everyone agreed on your version, well then I would have no problem with it. Or if you had discussed this before the game began and points were spent, ditto. But you did neither. I would encourage you to read the sidebar in the APG on pg. 100 entitled What Powers Do. The second and third paragraphs in particular apply to this particular discussion, and go a long way towards explaining the static you're getting.

You're not wrong for having a problem with the way a particular power works, that's your right. But we're not wrong for liking the way a particular power works, that's ours.

The ideas being propounded in this thread bother me because I know for a fact that using a power to give my character certain advantages is - rather than being immature and a sure sign of munchkinism - pretty much what the creators intended for me to do with that power in the first place, and entirely natural to boot. And while I'm willing to work with you and your preferences BT, that feeling doesn't seem to be reciprocated, and I'm kind of wondering why....

[SkyLion]

This discussion appears to have become quite heated...

,,

...which i saw coming the minute I read the initail post.

,,

Mostly i want to stay out of this since it doesnt really affect me but I did want to clarify a couple things about what I said earlier.

,,

No this isnt marvel, but the marvel universe is the grand daddy of the genre we are playing.

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Regarding eagles and flight...If you shapeshift into an eagle you arent really an eagle...you just look like one (especially if you roll only 1 success, natch). You remain a nova...and novas have the powers of gods. I only mention this in passing (so please no flame wars) since I constantly see people trying to nerf aberrant when in actuality I think we should be going the other way...considering the themes of the game.

,,

Second, regarding density increase and decrease...this is why i mentioned the marvel U, as it has an "IC" reasoning for how shapeshifters accomplish this...that is all i was getting with that. But if you can grow and shrink you are already gaining or losing a great deal of mass...otherwise a shifter who grew huge (or just anyone with sizemorph) would get all big and feathery. If you can add or subtract mass and volume, why not be able to do it without changing volume? Either way requires one to alter their molecular density. Does this break the laws of physics? Unless you buy the marvel explanation that you are drwing it from another dimesion, then...

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yes.

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and its supposed to.

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What would you do with the power of a god?

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::ultracool

[Alex Green]

RE: Current Situation

As I understand it our ST here as backed off on the whole suite idea and is leaning more towards running Shapeshift as it’s in the book.

,,

RE: Bioluminescence

Shapeshift presumably lets you glow, this can be represented by a dot in biolum.

Then we run into the same issue as with flight and EM Vision. Biolum the actual power also lets you function as a flashlight.

RE: Aberrations

I think he’s being very generous about this. IMHO Shapeshift does NOT allow you to affect your aberrations at all. If you have green skin, then anything you shift into also has green skin. If you have glowing eyes (like a certain Project Pro agent) then you can’t hide that glow and still have eyes. If you have horns on your head, then anything you shift into will also. There is a power in the books that allows you to shift and otherwise effect your aberrations. It is very much in the same theme as shapeshift, but it wouldn’t exist if basic Shapeshift gave you that ability on it’s own.

However, I think what BT is saying here is that SS does let you counter aberrations, if they are shape related.

Note I think he’s handling our liquid metal man correctly, because he has perm bodymorph, he always has Density Decrease. This does not prevent him from also having Density increase. IMHO DD should have been broken into two different powers, one to make you a fluid and one to make you less solid, but that’s a different problem.

RE: Density Increase

I’m not impressed by the argument that any nova who can shift his size can also shift his density. In abby those are different powers and having one doesn’t imply having the other.

However, I do think that Shapeshift lets you use DI on occasion.

The problem is “for what”. Shapeshift doesn’t exist in a vacuum, it is designed to let you shift your shape. So… what is that you want to become that’s going to need DI? Big monster? Godzilla doesn’t have DI. Stone statue? That needs DI but doesn’t allow movement. Something else? I’m at a loss.

[metaphysician]

Not going to pop in too much, but. . . I think some of you guys over-nerf Shapeshift. Specifically, the idea that a nova with Shapeshift couldn't, say, take Flight to cover an eagle form, because its too fast. There's two angles to this:

1. If Shapeshift is limited to strictly mimicking the properties and capabilities of mundane creatures and inanimate objects, its essentially useless, and certainly not worth being a Level 3 power.

2. More importantly, at no point in the writeup does it actually say that the forms are limited to quantitative properties of their mundane version. At best, you can point to its mention of 'simulating' the form.

In contrast, it *explicitly* sanctions using a number of powers and enhancements, including Flight ( when I can't think of a single viable form that'd achieve even Flight 1 speeds ). It *explicitly* uses the example of an eagle form with Claws, Flight, and Shrinking. And when it mentions the GM disallowing configurations that don't make sense, the *explicit* example given is the "non physical powers" one, not anything about powers or enhancements taken beyond what the form could provide.

[metaphysician]

Speaking more generally, the rule of thumb I use for figuring out rules ambiguities. . .

"What would you do if you had the power of a god?"

Emphasis on 'god'. IOW, if multiple interpretations of a power's rules are possible, I favor the more potent one. Naturally, if this interp is unbalanced on its own right, it goes out. But, for example, the idea that Armor and other defensive powers give you armor adds, and thus are totally and universally useless versus heavy weapons, is right out.

[SkyLion]

RE: Aberrations

I think she's being very generous about this.

::blink Did BT go in for a li'l snip an' tuck?

Or have I been mistaken in thinking BT is a dude this whole time?

I'm not impressed by the argument that any nova who can shift his size can also shift his density. In abby those are different powers and having one doesn't imply having the other.

Um...youre missing the point Alex...shifting size gives you an increase in mass. That mass has to come from somewhere. If you can add mass into your form by growing, then why couldnt you do it wiothout growing?

One of my favorite shifters to use as an example is Apocalypse...he has complete and utter control over his molecular structure...this gives him godlike abilities..he can shapshift into disguises, form armor, shields and weapons (even energy weapons, though he doesnt have q-bolt since he never fires off a round without first shifting his arm or what have you into a blaster) he can fly and alter his size and density.

Emphasis on 'god'. IOW, if multiple interpretations of a power's rules are possible, I favor the more potent one.

THANK YOU!!! Finally someone who understands! I think much of the nerfing that goes on is a sort of archaic throwback to the early days of RPing where you start weak and grow powerful. In Aberrant you are supposed to start incredibly powerful and then grow ludicrously powerful ("Ludicrous speed!" "Spaceball One's gone to plaid!" ::laugh )

[Alex Green]

::blink Did BT go in for a li'l snip an' tuck?

My bad. I was confusing BT for BC.

[Alex Green]

Not going to pop in too much, but. . . I think some of you guys over-nerf Shapeshift. Specifically, the idea that a nova with Shapeshift couldn't, say, take Flight to cover an eagle form, because its too fast. There's two angles to this:

1. If Shapeshift is limited to strictly mimicking the properties and capabilities of mundane creatures and inanimate objects, its essentially useless, and certainly not worth being a Level 3 power.

I seriously don’t understand this. Shapeshift is presumably limited to copying the following powers.

In their entirety: Growth, Shrinking, Most or all of the Bodymods, Appearance Alteration, Regeneration, Bloodhound, Copycat, Becoming a generic person, Claws, Flexibility, Density Decrease (to two dots), Armor, 360 degree vision.

Not in their entirety: Flight, Mr. Nobody, Biolum, (BT also adds in here Aberration Shapeshift), EM Vision, Enhanced Hearing, Adaptability, Catfooted, Enhanced Movement.

And no doubt there’s lots of others that I’m simply not remembering for both categories. How do the words “nerf” or “not worth being level 3” even start to enter into this? Right there that’s a truck load more power and versatility than most level three powers, and it’s available for Q4.

Oh, and I don’t think the word “mundane” really applies either. There’s nothing that stops a shifter from becoming imaginary creatures like Dragons and the like.

2. More importantly, at no point in the writeup does it actually say that the forms are limited to quantitative properties of their mundane version. At best, you can point to its mention of 'simulating' the form.

And at no point does it even start to suggest that becoming an Eagle allows you to outrace airplanes and literally fly to the moon. It does however suggest that you might be weaker than the form you attempt to become.

In contrast, it *explicitly* sanctions using a number of powers and enhancements, including Flight ( when I can't think of a single viable form that'd achieve even Flight 1 speeds ). It *explicitly* uses the example of an eagle form with Claws, Flight, and Shrinking.

I still haven’t had anyone answer this question:

Do you believe that a shapeshifted Eagle can fly at 300 kph and, by flapping it’s wings, go to the moon? Do you believe that this is what the basic power is supposed to let you do?

Naturally, if this interp is unbalanced on its own right, it goes out.

Fine. Please detail your interpretation.

Um...youre missing the point Alex...shifting size gives you an increase in mass. That mass has to come from somewhere. If you can add mass into your form by growing, then why couldnt you do it wiothout growing?

Considering that everyone with the power Growth doesn’t also have the power DI, and also considering that doubling the amount of water in a container is much easier than doubling it’s density, I don’t think so.

But rather than argue about DI in the abstract, please present an example where it is needed. I’ve already conceded Shapeshift might be able to mimic DI for some things (that steel table for example).

What is it that you want to use DI for?

One of my favorite shifters to use as an example is Apocalypse...he has complete and utter control over his molecular structure...this gives him godlike abilities..he can shapshift into disguises, form armor, shields and weapons (even energy weapons, though he doesnt have q-bolt since he never fires off a round without first shifting his arm or what have you into a blaster) he can fly and alter his size and density.

I’ll grant that the big “A’s” theme is shapeshifting. However I don’t see why he has to be purchased by only using one power.

[metaphysician]

Wrt "would an eagle be capable of flying to the moon?"

In a word? Yep. Because the Shapeshifted eagle isn't propelling himself by flapping his wings; he's propelling himself via exertion of the nova's quantum powers. Ditto for virtually all the other "physical" powers a Shapeshifter can manifest. . . including one of the most basic, Growth.

Why would limiting people to mundane forms be a nerf? Because the toughest mobile living forms you could take would be utterly useless against any nova with combat ability. For that matter, you wouldn't even be able to *use* Shapeshift 5 to its full effect, because there really aren't any natural living things that have abilities of 5 dot level ( aside from maybe Growth and Shrink. . . and even then, the Growth and Shrink powers have benefits that natural creatures of those sizes don't ).

So either your limiting to mundane forms ( in which case, the power is useless, especially at high levels ), or you allow the power to define the limits of the form and not vice versa, and allow things like superstrong bears and eagles faster than jets.

[Alex Green]

Wrt "would an eagle be capable of flying to the moon?"

In a word? Yep. Because the Shapeshifted eagle isn't propelling himself by flapping his wings; he's propelling himself via exertion of the nova's quantum powers.

I disagree. Shapeshift doesn’t give you the power “flight”, it allows you to gain the ability to fly. That’s why the word “simulate” was used 5 times in it’s description. IMHO you do indeed propel yourself by flapping your wings, just like you hurt people with physical claws. Shapeshift gave you the form, the form has abilities.

Ditto for virtually all the other "physical" powers a Shapeshifter can manifest. . . including one of the most basic, Growth.

Growth is an example where there is no distinction between what the real power lets you do and what SS lets you do.

Growth (the power) lets you grow. Shapeshift on the other hand “only” lets you grow.

Why would limiting people to mundane forms be a nerf?

First of all, I am NOT saying that Shifters are limited to mundane forms. Those are your words, not mine.

My words were ”…I don’t think the word “mundane” really applies either. There’s nothing that stops a shifter from becoming imaginary creatures like Dragons and the like.”

The point is NOT that you are limited to “mundane”, the point is you are limited to what the power lets you do, and that’s Shifting your Shape.

Because the toughest mobile living forms you could take would be utterly useless against any nova with combat ability.

Nonsense (see below). But even if it were true, most of the level 3 powers don’t build combat machines, certainly not with one dot.

Bob has several combat forms, even with one dot of Shapeshift.

Example #1: Beholder: Form (big central mass with lots and lots of tendrils coming out and a big central eye), Growth (he’s big), Claws (points on the ends of his handling tendrils), Extra-Limbs (lots of them), Armor, 360 degree vision (eye stalk tendrils), Flexibility (mostly to double his reach), Regeneration.

Example 1 has a lethal Mega-Strength 2 attack and probably regeneration and some soak to boot. That’s REALLY good for a level 3 power that isn’t specifically built for offense or defense.

Example #2: Used in game BTW. Dog: Form (dog), Shrinking (drops him to 25 pounds), tendril (his tongue was replaced with a tendril), Enhanced Movement (Dogs can run fast), Bloodhound.

This is another instance of Bob in his “stealth assassin” mode. The poor innocent lost and friendly dog walks up to someone wagging its tail, then the evil tendril comes out and uses the touch based attack (which is a separate power). The dog can run away and smell if there are problems.

For that matter, you wouldn't even be able to *use* Shapeshift 5 to its full effect, because there really aren't any natural living things that have abilities of 5 dot level ( aside from maybe Growth and Shrink. . . and even then, the Growth and Shrink powers have benefits that natural creatures of those sizes don't ).

Elder dragons are pretty big, and I’ve never seen someone want to drop 5 dots into the same power anyway.

So either your limiting to mundane forms ( in which case, the power is useless, especially at high levels ), or you allow the power to define the limits of the form and not vice versa, and allow things like superstrong bears and eagles faster than jets.

False choice. The options on the table aren’t between impotence or space worthy eagles.

[metaphysician]

The problem is, virtually all of your example "physical" form changes already involve doing things that are, technically speaking, physically impossible. Most notably, Growth gives you vastly more strength than any biological form could actually achieve, at least above the 1 dot level. Likewise for Armor.

So, even if your limiting the power effects to "physical" powers derived from your form. . . your already violating strict physical limits. And if you are. . . is there really a meaningful difference between a dragon that has strength vastly beyond anything physics allows, and a dragon who can fly faster than physics allows ( perhaps via said same superstrong body, er, wings )?

[Centimane]

On most points I find myself agreeing with Alex. I don't think that Shape Shift should be some kind of uber-power that allows a nova to become anything he or she wants at any time. However I do think that novas with large enough dice pools, and who are therefore getting a large enough number of successes, should be able to turn into damn close to anything they want. I also think that there should be a certain amount of common sense applied to what shape shifting allows in various instances. For instance: if you turn into a generic bird with wings, I do think it's a little silly to be devoting more than 1 or 2 successes to flight, as an ST I would seriously have to wonder about that. But if you turned into some giant fantastical winged dragon that's supposed to be the king of the skies, and you put 4 or 5 successes into flight, that's a different story, IMHO. I'd also like to reiterate my agreement with both BT and Alex that Shapeshift should not make it possible to easily overcome the problem of aberrations. A highly tainted nova with shapeshift who wants to turn into something that doesn't look tainted is probably going to have to spend a large number, possibly even all, of his successes to do so. And no nova using Shape Shift should ever be able to alter their aberrations. That is very obviously covered under Chimeric Aberration.

However, here are some critiques, challenges, and comments for the more conservative end of this discussion:

I seriously don’t understand this. Shapeshift is presumably limited to copying the following powers.

In their entirety: Growth, Shrinking, Most or all of the Bodymods, Appearance Alteration, Regeneration, Bloodhound, Copycat, Becoming a generic person, Claws, Flexibility, Density Decrease (to two dots), Armor, 360 degree vision.

Not in their entirety: Flight, Mr. Nobody, Biolum, (BT also adds in here Aberration Shapeshift), EM Vision, Enhanced Hearing, Adaptability, Catfooted, Enhanced Movement.

And no doubt there’s lots of others that I’m simply not remembering for both categories. How do the words “nerf” or “not worth being level 3” even start to enter into this? Right there that’s a truck load more power and versatility than most level three powers, and it’s available for Q4.

This is a pretty decent list, though like you I suspect there may be a few more possibilities out there. However I'm still really confused as to why Invisibility gets flat-out banned all the time. Almost all of the real-world solutions for "cloaking devices" that I've seen or read about involve physical structures that channel light through them in a specific way, creating an optical illusion that renders the target object invisible. There are other methods I've heard of that involve em-fields, and obviously these wouldn't be available to a shape shifter, but I'm not at all clear on why the physical varieties wouldn't be.

But whatever, it's just one power.

Your "not in their entirety" list is highly questionable Alex: I asked BT to read the sidebar on pg. 100 of the APG in my last post, but I'll just go ahead and quote it here. "Apply this principle: If the rules say that a character can produce a given result, he can, unless he specifically weakens or redefines the power. A nova doesn't have to buy anything extra to use his power, beyond the requirements given in the rules." If Shape Shift allows a nova to mimick Flight, then they can fly at 40 kph per dot. Why? Because they're a nova. For the same reason a mega-strong nova can pick up a car even though this is patentedly impossible. Besides, the White Throated Swift can reportedly fly at about 320 kph, which is better than our nova, even if he can reach 5 dots in this power. I could make similar arguments about every other enhancement listed, but I think I'd run out of text space, so I won't. I think you get the general idea anway.

Oh, and I don’t think the word “mundane” really applies either. There’s nothing that stops a shifter from becoming imaginary creatures like Dragons and the like.

Very good point, but it's a point that goes both ways. It means that limiting powers to mundane effects is silly when looked at from the proper perspective.

And at no point does it even start to suggest that becoming an Eagle allows you to outrace airplanes and literally fly to the moon. It does however suggest that you might be weaker than the form you attempt to become.

No, it says you may not have copied the animal perfectly (although in most cases this does mean that the animal can perform better than you in its own environment). And this is at 1 or 2 successes. That's a pretty crappy number of successes for a quantum power, so it's only fair that the results be less than spectacular. As for the eagle thing flying to the moon? Well, I'd require the Shape Shifter to take on Adaptability, which would probably alter the eagle's appearance until it didn't much look like an eagle. But who knows? Maybe the player will come up with a creative solution that allows him to have an eagle flying through space. I'm not going to put a blanket condemnation on that idea just because I'm not clever enough to think up a solution.

I still haven’t had anyone answer this question:

Do you believe that a shapeshifted Eagle can fly at 300 kph and, by flapping it’s wings, go to the moon? Do you believe that this is what the basic power is supposed to let you do?

See my above mention of the White-Throated Swift. I believe that birds can fly faster than 300 kph, if it matters.

Considering that everyone with the power Growth doesn’t also have the power DI, and also considering that doubling the amount of water in a container is much easier than doubling it’s density, I don’t think so.

But rather than argue about DI in the abstract, please present an example where it is needed. I’ve already conceded Shapeshift might be able to mimic DI for some things (that steel table for example).

What is it that you want to use DI for?

Again, I already presented an example. Gorillas. A male gorilla generally doesn't get taller than 6 feet, but they weigh between 300 and 400 pounds. This would only require a single dot of DI, but so what? It still requires DI (unless you're a naturally really, really obese shape shifter). Speaking of obesity, what if our nova shape shifter wants to become clinically obese for some reason? He's gonna need all that extra mass from somewhere, and Sizemorph just isn't going to cut it (too much, and in all the wrong directions).

Shape Shift is a massively versatile power, and it's easily abuseable, but it's much better thought out and consistent with Aberrant as a whole than people seem to want to give it credit for. As for the abuseability part, like I've said, just use some common sense and make sure that the player(s) are being consistant with what they're transforming into vs. what sort of abilities they're mimicking. I really don't see the problem with this. I've been playing in games as a non-shapeshifter alongside characters who were for the entirety of my PbP career on these forums, and it's never once crossed my mind that it was "unfair" how much "power" those shapeshifters have. I mostly just thought that some of the things they turned into sounded really cool.

[SkyLion]

Considering that everyone with the power Growth doesn’t also have the power DI, and also considering that doubling the amount of water in a container is much easier than doubling it’s density, I don’t think so.

But rather than argue about DI in the abstract, please present an example where it is needed. I’ve already conceded Shapeshift might be able to mimic DI for some things (that steel table for example).

What is it that you want to use DI for?

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I think the disconect you and I seem to be having is that you are thinking purely in terms of shape, while i think in terms of molecular configuration. And btw, every person with a single dot in growth has the equavalent of 3 DI...

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I am thinking more along the lines of what changing form actually entails. For example..in your statement above about doubling the ater in a container...where did that water come from? When a shapeshifter doubles his size and octuples his mass the extra mass is being "magically" produced out of thin air. If he can do that, and he can compress his shape into a smaller form and lose mas, i see no reason he can't compress his molecules. Its all in the degree of the control, which Cottus (and the book) alluded to has to do with dice pools and/or successes. His example of a gorilla is also superb.

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MP was also incorrect (no offesne btw, I love your approach to the game) in that one example...some bilogical forms could posses mega strength, depending on size...a rhino or elephant can be pretty darn strong...maybe 1 or 2 dots in mega strength. A brontosaurus or dragon could have 4 or 5.

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In any case, this argument is bordering on picking nits and grows tiresome for me. It doesnt really apply to me in this game, but as a proud player of a shifter I thought i would help stand up for my compadres. The biggest offense at this point seems to be changing the rules after the fact. IMHO, the rules werent broken to begin with. This is a supers game, and in every classic supers game, from marvel to champions, SS is handled in much the same way. Its not real science. Its comic book science.

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At this point Id like to see BT comment on the feedback from his players. At least one of us had a strong enough reaction to warrant dropping out of the game. I can't say I blame him, but at the same time understand the need to respect and defer to BTs wishes. He has, after all, taken it upon himself to create a very rich and detailed game for us to enjoy.

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Regardless of the outcome of this discussion, I just wanted to say thank you BT..

[Centimane]

At this point Id like to see BT comment on the feedback from his players. At least one of us had a strong enough reaction to warrant dropping out of the game. I can't say I blame him, but at the same time understand the need to respect and defer to BTs wishes. He has, after all, taken it upon himself to create a very rich and detailed game for us to enjoy.,,

Regardless of the outcome of this discussion, I just wanted to say thank you BT..

Yeah, I'd like to second that. I understand your exasperation with a power that's easily abused as well, I just didn't agree with your solution. For my part, regardless of the outcome, I won't be leaving the game, and I won't stop thinking you're a pretty kickass Storyteller.

Edit: Oh yeah, one more thing: Sky brontosauruses never really existed, they were a result of an archeaological mix up.... ::unsure

Just thought you should know. ::tongue

[BlueNinja]

In their entirety: Growth, Shrinking, Most or all of the Bodymods, Appearance Alteration, Regeneration, Bloodhound, Copycat, Becoming a generic person, Claws, Flexibility, Density Decrease (to two dots), Armor, 360 degree vision.

I don't really disagree with this, but I honestly do think this list should be larger. The description says that a nova can copy any sort of physical power, so why shouldn't they be able to take Shockwave, or Resiliency? I can easily see a shifter turning into something large, and doin a foot-stomp to do Shockwave.

Not in their entirety: Flight, Mr. Nobody, Biolum, (BT also adds in here Aberration Shapeshift), EM Vision, Enhanced Hearing, Adaptability, Catfooted, Enhanced Movement.

With regards to flight, you keep mentioning outpacing jets. At 300kph, you might be able to outpace a jet - on the ground. In the air, though, they're going to leave you behind, because you can't use Shapeshifting to grant yourself Hypermovement - which is what you really need. Each part of EM Vision can be seen in nature, as there are numerous animals that can see into the IR or UV range, and birds like eagles and owls have telescopic vision (though if it's granted with SShift, it should be limited by successes, not M-Perception). Enhanced Hearing should work except for the Radio Scan (which should be a duh) and I'm completely not understanding why Adaptability is a not-fully-working enhancement in this fashion.

And at no point does it even start to suggest that becoming an Eagle allows you to outrace airplanes and literally fly to the moon. It does however suggest that you might be weaker than the form you attempt to become.

No one without Hypermovement should be able to fly to the moon. Unless they want to take their character out of play for a few months ... each way ... ::confused

[Alex Green]

The problem is, virtually all of your example "physical" form changes already involve doing things that are, technically speaking, physically impossible. Most notably, Growth gives you vastly more strength than any biological form could actually achieve, at least above the 1 dot level. Likewise for Armor.

This is an argument for putting more restrictions on SS, not fewer.

. . . is there really a meaningful difference between a dragon that has strength vastly beyond anything physics allows, and a dragon who can fly faster than physics allows ( perhaps via said same superstrong body, er, wings )?

Yes, there is. Because that dragon who can fly faster than physics allows didn't gain that ability merely by it's form. That's why you don't get it's fire breath for example, or telepathy if Dragons can do that, or the ability to cast spells if dragons can do that. Even if all Dragons have the power of hyperflight, they get that power from the power hyperflight, and if you want to mimic that then you'd better have Q-Imprint.

Pax is a good example of an uber-Dragon who has all these powers. Does anyone think that using Shapeshift to become Pax also gives you his powers? No? Then why should it work on other empowered creatures?

[Alex Green]

...I'm still really confused as to why Invisibility gets flat-out banned all the time.

You have the power to shift your shape. Making your skin invisible is obviously a nonstarter, so the obvious solution is to make "Predator" type armor. Good so far, but that’s an example of Chromotophores and not Invisibility. Examples of creatures that are invisible AFAICT (Susan Storm) are examples of creatures that have the power invisibility.

And at this point I bounce the ball back to you. What do you intend to change into that is Invisible? A nova with the power of Invisibility?

"Apply this principle: If the rules say that a character can produce a given result, he can, unless he specifically weakens or redefines the power. A nova doesn't have to buy anything extra to use his power, beyond the requirements given in the rules." If Shape Shift allows a nova to mimick Flight, then they can fly at 40 kph per dot. Why? Because they're a nova.

The power we are talking about is Shapeshift, which allows you to shift your shape and gain the power to fly. Good so far, and I agree that you can indeed fly. I don’t have a problem with 40 kph per dot (Suite power flight). Obviously an eagle could reasonably have two dots of that.

My problem is with (Q+Dots) x 50 kph (the Flight power), or 1 dot resulting in 300 kph.

Besides, the White Throated Swift can reportedly fly at about 320 kph…

I look for this on the web but wasn’t able to verify this. But let’s assume it’s true. That means that if you become a Swift (a very, very small bird built for speed), then you should be able to buy a dot of Flight to represent that speed. However I still think it’s not going to work out in space, simply because no matter how fast the Swift is, it doesn’t have the quantum power Flight. Further, simply because a Swift can match a dot in flight doesn’t imply that our Eagle can.

As for the eagle thing flying to the moon? Well, I'd require the Shape Shifter to take on Adaptability, which would probably alter the eagle's appearance until it didn't much look like an eagle. But who knows? Maybe the player will come up with a creative solution that allows him to have an eagle flying through space. I'm not going to put a blanket condemnation on that idea just because I'm not clever enough to think up a solution.

I won’t either. But neither would I simply allow someone with Shapeshift to plunk down an SS success and have it function as the quantum power Flight. He doesn’t have Flight, he has Shapeshift. Perhaps there is a way to make a form that can fly in space… but unless someone can come up with an example the default answer should be no.

Again, I already presented an example. Gorillas. A male gorilla generally doesn't get taller than 6 feet, but they weigh between 300 and 400 pounds. This would only require a single dot of DI, but so what? It still requires DI (unless you're a naturally really, really obese shape shifter). Speaking of obesity, what if our nova shape shifter wants to become clinically obese for some reason? He's gonna need all that extra mass from somewhere, and Sizemorph just isn't going to cut it (too much, and in all the wrong directions).

Density increase won’t work unless Gorillas have a flesh that’s denser than stone. I would guess that Gorillas are that heavy because they are large. If Growth is overkill, then I would suggest the Huge Size merit. Perhaps a dot in Strength as well.

[Alex Green]

I think the disconect you and I seem to be having is that you are thinking purely in terms of shape, while i think in terms of molecular configuration.

That’s a problem right there. The power is about Shifting shape, that’s what we need to be talking about. How the power is defined mostly shouldn’t matter. If we’re talking about the power Flight, then we need to talk about Flight, not manipulation of gravity and what that implies.

I see no reason he can't compress his molecules.

Of course he can, in theory. Now in practice, what do you want to do with that? Simply standing around compressing your molecules is Density Increase, not SS. What do you want to Shift into that requires DI?

The biggest offense at this point seems to be changing the rules after the fact. IMHO, the rules werent broken to begin with. This is a supers game, and in every classic supers game, from marvel to champions, SS is handled in much the same way. Its not real science. Its comic book science.

The rules are in the book. This isn’t changing them after the fact, this is letting people know Shapeshift is going to be limited to what’s in the book.

However I have to admit that confusion on SS is quite common.

At this point Id like to see BT comment on the feedback from his players.

BT at least appeared to be dropping the suite idea. A better question is how do the players who actually have Shapeshift feel about being limited to what the book says.

No, correction, a better idea is for the players with SS to run a few sample (and hopefully common) Shapeshifts past BT and see if that’s agreeable.

[Alex Green]

((Sorry about the multiple posts... for some reason I couldn't get it to format correctly until I did that))

I don't really disagree with this, but I honestly do think this list should be larger. The description says that a nova can copy any sort of physical power, so why shouldn't they be able to take Shockwave, or Resiliency? I can easily see a shifter turning into something large, and doin a foot-stomp to do Shockwave.

With about 5 dots of Growth... that's a good idea. Very Godzillish. I’d still put it in the second group though because it’s so hard to get.

Each part of EM Vision can be seen in nature

But not all at once.

I'm completely not understanding why Adaptability is a not-fully-working enhancement in this fashion.

What do you want to shift into that doesn't eat, sleep, drink, age, or breath and is immune to radiation, poison, pressure, and temperatures up to and including the sun's interior?

Where adaptability normally comes into play is for novas that want to breath water or respond to tear gas. This is another example where the power simulated is far more than is needed or even possible.

[SkyLion]

Look Alex, I like you and all, but I have seen you do this for a number of "arguments" I have seen pop up on these here Forums.

The first thing I notice that you do, is assume that your interpretaion is the only "correct" one (or the best, most applicable one that we should all come to sensibly agree with). You will argue things "by-the-book" when it serves you and then turn around and diss the book when it doesn't. By "serving you" I refer to your apparent need to enforce your paradigm on the world/game/forum. If we are talking about strictly only being a biological being who can turn into other biological beings then that is one kind of shapeshift. but the source materials (comic universes) have shapeshifting far more impreesive than merely taking strict biological shapes. Morph is another classic example of a true molecular shifter.

The second thing I have noticed is corrolary to the first.

You are relentless in arguing. I have been around long enough to see that you will not relent in arguing a point you are set on, to the umpteenth degree of minutia. Sometimes it seems like you are unwilling to concede that other viewpoints (especially in the context of a fictional game with subjective rules in the first place) may be as "correct" or applicable as yours are.

Im sorry I had to make it personal. Like I said, I enjoy gaming with you, but some of these arguments that spring up every so often (between you and Nully, or you and I, or whomever) can end up seeming like, almost some kind of alpha-dog contest. Which is why I inevitably become exasperated and stop caring enough to keep giving energy to it. Given your number of total posts, Id say your posting stamina may outweigh the hardiest among us, especially considering you keeep up your rate of posting on several sites and nearly every periphery topic that comes up. I understand this particular discussion does directly apply to your character...but your last post reinforced that feeling that you are just steamrolling over us. In some cases your responses at least seem borderline antagonsitic.

[Centimane]

You have the power to shift your shape. Making your skin invisible is obviously a nonstarter, so the obvious solution is to make "Predator" type armor. Good so far, but that’s an example of Chromotophores and not Invisibility. Examples of creatures that are invisible AFAICT (Susan Storm) are examples of creatures that have the power invisibility.

And at this point I bounce the ball back to you. What do you intend to change into that is Invisible? A nova with the power of Invisibility?

An Invisibility Suit. Though you're right, most of the time Chromatophores would be much more appropriate.

The power we are talking about is Shapeshift, which allows you to shift your shape and gain the power to fly. Good so far, and I agree that you can indeed fly. I don’t have a problem with 40 kph per dot (Suite power flight). Obviously an eagle could reasonably have two dots of that.

My problem is with (Q+Dots) x 50 kph (the Flight power), or 1 dot resulting in 300 kph.

Yeah, I tend to agree with this. But my suggestion would be to limit powers to a number of dots equal to the successes put down. I haven't reviewed every possible (and apparently highly debateable) power, so this might not work in some cases. S with flight I would say that 1 success devoted to it grants a maximum speed of 50 kph, two would equal 100 and so on. I think that's pretty fair myself. Another option would be to limit imitated powers to something closer to what suite powers are. So for example Flight would become 40 kph per dot, rather than 50. I don't know how I feel about this last suggestion, mostly because there's a limited supply of canonical suite powers, most of which aren't directly comparible to what's doable with SS, but it's still a thought.

I look for this on the web but wasn’t able to verify this. But let’s assume it’s true. That means that if you become a Swift (a very, very small bird built for speed), then you should be able to buy a dot of Flight to represent that speed. However I still think it’s not going to work out in space, simply because no matter how fast the Swift is, it doesn’t have the quantum power Flight. Further, simply because a Swift can match a dot in flight doesn’t imply that our Eagle can.

From the Microsoft Encarta Premium (an Encyclopedia I have on my PC): White-Throated Swift, common name for a black-and-white swift found in the western United States south to Central America. It inhabits mountains, canyons, and rocky cliffs, and spends most of its time flying and feeding in the open sky. With reported speeds of up to 320 km/h (200 mph), the white-throated swift may be the fastest flying bird in North America.

Microsoft ® Encarta ® 2006. © 1993-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Also, try this.

I won’t either. But neither would I simply allow someone with Shapeshift to plunk down an SS success and have it function as the quantum power Flight. He doesn’t have Flight, he has Shapeshift. Perhaps there is a way to make a form that can fly in space… but unless someone can come up with an example the default answer should be no.

Sounds reasonable to me.

Density increase won’t work unless Gorillas have a flesh that’s denser than stone. I would guess that Gorillas are that heavy because they are large. If Growth is overkill, then I would suggest the Huge Size merit. Perhaps a dot in Strength as well.

I don't mean any offense by this Alex, but this is one of the sillier answers I've seen you give. A single dot of DI doubles you mass and grants an extra dot of Str and soak. For many that's less than 180 lbs. How is that "denser than stone"? Unless of course the shifter didn't actually change shape in any way. But as you've stated over and over again, this is about changing shape. A gorilla is a real life creature. It's flesh is not, in fact, denser than stone (or at least most stones). It does weigh 300 to 400 lbs., despite the fact that the tallest gorillas are about the same height I am. I weigh about 180 right now, and that's the most I've weighed in my entire life. Huge Size specifically states that you're over two meters tall. Even 6.1 meters equals out to 6'11", and that's much taller than the tallest gorilla. Huge Size also doesn't have any rules for how much weight you gain. Do we really want to introduce more ambiguity into this situation? Growth is a terrible choice for this shape, even a very short person would end up closer to eight feet and even at 80 lbs. they'd suddenly weigh 640 lbs.. Overkill is an understatement. You're the one who first pointed out that Shape Shift "simulates" other powers, and this was one of the things I agreed with (though not entirely, obviously), so why does "simulating" a dot of DI mean that the nova's stuck at the exact same proportion as he started at? He's a shape shifter for cryin' out loud! He adds the mass, and he shapes himself like a gorilla. Now he not only looks like a gorilla, he weighs the same, and he got the increase in strength that we would expect a gorilla to have thrown in to boot. This is emminently simple, straightforward, and makes perfect sense. I'm totally failing to see the problem unless, for some reason, a person just doesn't want a shape shifter to be able to use DI, in which case yeah, I guess this is a problem.

Of course he can, in theory. Now in practice, what do you want to do with that? Simply standing around compressing your molecules is Density Increase, not SS. What do you want to Shift into that requires DI?

Now I've just answered this question myself, but this right here is a very good question to be asking. Any player of a nova with SS should have a good IC reason for any power they want to simulate. And I totally agree with the distinction you made between SS simulating DI, and DI itself. Very well put.

BT at least appeared to be dropping the suite idea. A better question is how do the players who actually have Shapeshift feel about being limited to what the book says.

No, correction, a better idea is for the players with SS to run a few sample (and hopefully common) Shapeshifts past BT and see if that’s agreeable.

This is a very good idea, and one I'm going to work on. I don't know if BT will be interested, but if he is I'm all for it.

But not all at once.

This is, on the face of it, a good point. However, this is another situation where I think it might be overcomplicating matters. If a player can simulate EMV, well then he can simulate EMV. If he can only simulate parts of it, well then he's not really simulating EMV, is he? So what exactly are we dropping successes for at this point? Still, I know what you mean. If I turned into a snake it makes sense that I could sense thermal patterns. It doesn't make sense that I can also (casually, and without another roll) telescope my vision to see the thermal pattern two kilometers away.

I confess to being torn on this point.

My personal preference would be to be trusted as a player to not completely abuse the enhancement by constantly changing into snakes with eagle-eyesight or eagles with snake-vision.

As for the adaptability question I think that's another of those times when simple common sense solves the problem. A shapeshifting nova should be quite capable of simulating all of the various facets of Adaptability, but since it is, at all times, a result of a change in physical shape, they're going to be constantly changing shape to suit a new environment. Whereas the nova with Adaptability as an enhancement is just sort of walking around being adaptable, and maybe there's some special visible effects (possibly even shape shifting-like ones), maybe there's not.

Another thing: I haven't seen Sensory Shield mentioned anywhere: is this another power that people feel shouldn't be allowed for shape shift? If so I'd like to hear a reason why.

[SkyLion]

If I turned into a snake it makes sense that I could sense thermal patterns.

Im sure you all know that a snake sense heat through its Jacobsen's organ. This immediately opens up whole new realms of possibility if we can duplicate organs. Poison anyone? Chromatophores are another one. But if I can do that then I should be able to have quantum conversion: electricity in the same way as an electric eel. Ah...now we come back to the whole physical vs energy thing. As I have repeatedly pointed out, all matter *is* energy, and this energy may be harnesed in incredible and even heretofore untohought of ways. If I can become an electric eel with quantum conversion, and i am an incredibly skilled shifter (ie, huge dice pool/successes), then i should be able to become a *massive* electrical creature and have immolate. Not only that but ranged attacks are possible...spitting acid (ie q-bolt) or arcing electricity through some actually biologicaly possible but heretofore uncreated in nature organ system.

For this reason I think looking at the trinity's shifters biokinesis is a great idea, since it delves into the effects possible by actually altering biological structures, forms and organs...

Same argument for becomming a fire breathing dragon...use the same principle as the movie reighn of fire...two biological liquids that are ejected from special glands in the mouth...when coming in contact with each other they ignite....theres a q-bolt spray right there.

If we *really* want to get into the physics and science these things become possible, as in reality, there is no distiction between chemistry and biology...they are intertwined. The possibilities for genetic engineering, and chemistry combined is limitless....everything is chemistry, or rather chemistry describes everything. For example...certain minerals (ie silicon) lend themselves well to life as well know it. it may be possible for life to be copmposed of other minerals and metals (elements) as well. Even life itself is at best poorly defined by the scientific community. What we are really taling about i...how fine a control over ones own form (molecules, energy, atoms, vibrational frequencies of the universe/pattern) does shapeshift allow?

As metaphysician said, given the genre, Id vote for the more potent interpretation.

[BlueNinja]

But not all at once.

That's ok; I don't allow a PC with regular EM Vision and Mega-Perception to use more than one function at the same time. I don't see why that should change because they get it with Shapeshift instead of XP.

What do you want to shift into that doesn't eat, sleep, drink, age, or breath and is immune to radiation, poison, pressure, and temperatures up to and including the sun's interior?

Completely farcical argument here. Since the nova would have to continue to pay upkeep for their Shapeshift by the scene, their adaptability would therefore only last for (at most) 10 scenes, or a day or two at most. The majority of Adaptability's functions are for long-term dangers, not short-term ones, so taking it with a Shapeshift success doesn't need to be further limited.

Where adaptability normally comes into play is for novas that want to breath water or respond to tear gas. This is another example where the power simulated is far more than is needed or even possible.

So what if it's overkill? 90% of the time, so is Disintigrate. ::devil And Adaptability still isn't that useful, whether they get the whole deal, or just part of the package.

[Centimane]

Im sure you all know that a snake sense heat through its Jacobsen's organ. This immediately opens up whole new realms of possibility if we can duplicate organs. Poison anyone? Chromatophores are another one. But if I can do that then I should be able to have quantum conversion: electricity in the same way as an electric eel. Ah...now we come back to the whole physical vs energy thing. As I have repeatedly pointed out, all matter *is* energy, and this energy may be harnesed in incredible and even heretofore untohought of ways. If I can become an electric eel with quantum conversion, and i am an incredibly skilled shifter (ie, huge dice pool/successes), then i should be able to become a *massive* electrical creature and have immolate. Not only that but ranged attacks are possible...spitting acid (ie q-bolt) or arcing electricity through some actually biologicaly possible but heretofore uncreated in nature organ system.

For this reason I think looking at the trinity's shifters biokinesis is a great idea, since it delves into the effects possible by actually altering biological structures, forms and organs...

Same argument for becomming a fire breathing dragon...use the same principle as the movie reighn of fire...two biological liquids that are ejected from special glands in the mouth...when coming in contact with each other they ignite....theres a q-bolt spray right there.

If we *really* want to get into the physics and science these things become possible, as in reality, there is no distiction between chemistry and biology...they are intertwined. The possibilities for genetic engineering, and chemistry combined is limitless....everything is chemistry, or rather chemistry describes everything. For example...certain minerals (ie silicon) lend themselves well to life as well know it. it may be possible for life to be copmposed of other minerals and metals (elements) as well. Even life itself is at best poorly defined by the scientific community. What we are really taling about i...how fine a control over ones own form (molecules, energy, atoms, vibrational frequencies of the universe/pattern) does shapeshift allow?

As metaphysician said, given the genre, Id vote for the more potent interpretation.

The only problem with this kind of logic is that it leads to the conclusion "I can do anything", which, while true in the long run for novas, isn't really the case in practice. I definitely see your point though, but I think it's too complex an idea to be adequately represented by a single power, and I also think that a lot of that stuff should only be achievable by a nova with more control over their bodies than even a Shape Shift 5 nova is gonna have. I might be persuaded as ST to allow things like dragon-breath at the cost of Health Levels for every use of the power. Same thing with quantum conversion or poison. The reason being that a shape shifter would have to use parts of his or her own body in order to "fuel" such powers. With the result being that they're basically burning away their own flesh whenever they spit fire. The scientific explanations for how a shape shifter might accomplish such things is definitely there, but it should still have some interesting IC quirks if it's going to be used to good effect. In fact, I'd be more inclined to come up with some kind of interesting bodymod to simulate something like what an electric eel or dragon could do. The reason for this being that a Quantum Bolt is just that, a Quantum bolt, not an organ which generates flame/electricity/whatever. Even if it manifests as an organ in a nova's body, it's still a bolt of energy that's created using raw quantum. Whereas a shape shifter uses quantum to rearrange his own body, so while he might well be able to rearrange himself so that he has two different organs holding flammable, reactive liquids, all of the quantum got used up in the change itself with none left over and the nova doesn't know how to channel more of it to power the new organs. So instead he has to just work with what he's got. Now, what he's got might well be truly potent once he uses it, but he's still using parts of himself to power it, so I'd definitely require some kind of health penalty or stamina penalty, and it'd get more severe as the "power's" effect grew. Probably something like: the nova may create a damaging effect that does either two bashing, or one lethal, dice for every dot the nova has in Shape Shift. Further, each use of this ability will inflict one bashing level of damage on the nova equal to the level of the damaging effect (poorly worded, but if the nova is using something that inflicts 3 dice of lethal damage, the nova would automatically take 3 levels of bashing damage.)

That was just off the top of my head, and I'm sure it could be better executed, but I think that's a reasonable tradeoff for being able to inflict projectile damage without taking q-bolt.

However, even something like this sounds more like an extra or something, and it could easily ruin the very tenuous game-balance where Shape Shift is concerned. Introduce the ability to mimic energy effects and Shape Shift can basically copy anything below level 3 that isn't obviously psychic in nature.

But it's not like any ST is actually going to allow this sort of thing anyway.

[Blue Thunder]

I agree and disagree with all of you on various issues. Actually, it looks like I take the middle ground based on all of your responses, which is a relief.

Where to start?

Firstly, Cottus, the thread was meant to bring up these issues because I noticed several players had the power and I wanted to address things, not to donkey punch anyone in the face, and I'm sorry that you interpretted it as that. The reason I proposed it as a suite-like power was because I saw everyone had their own independant take on the power, and felt this would help define it for them. You would still have all the same powers of Shapeshift available to you with the system I proposed. But again, I went back on that entire proposal in my first reply, it isn't happening. Our discussion is basically on what the limits of SS are now.

SkyLion, I don't thinik AlexGreen is being argumentative at all. I think he's actually bringing up valid points, though I disagree with a few parts.

The bird with Flight example

This is a good example, and leads to one of the points I'm trying to make in regards to Shapeshift. Let me start with a comparison then.

Caestus Pax has Flight. He can fly through the atmosphere.

A seagull has wings that basically accomplish Flight. It can also fly through the atmosphere.

Now put Caestus Pax in space. He can still fly.

Now put the seagull in space. Now matter how fast it flaps its wings...it isn't going anywhere.

The power Flight works in space/vacuum. Wings do not. Shapeshifting into a seagull can let you fly like a seagull, but you're also limited to whatever wings allow. And that means no flying in space. It would be the same if someone with Weather Manipulation tried using the Wind-Riding technique in space...there is no atmosphere to manipulate, so no way to propel themselves (and why would someone with a power like Weather Manipulation, which requires an atmosphere, be doing in space anyway?).

Shapeshift doesn't give you new quantum powers. You can't actually give yourself the Flight power with SS, you give yourself the ability to fly by growing wings. If SS let you morph yourself actual powers like Flight, then Shapeshift is deceptively more potent than anything else in the Aberrant book by a far and wide margin. If that were the case...if you were actually altering your own MR Node to give yourself quantum powers...it would be game-shattering. You would basically be able to shift your MR Node into whatever the hell you pleased. When you SS yourself Flight, you are not propeling yourself with quantum energy...you are flapping your wings (or perhaps, swimming quickly underwater with fins).

That's the major difference here: a nova Shapeshifted as a bird can fly, and simulates the effects of Flight, but the nova doesn't have the actual power itself. There's no quantum pushing him through the air, just wings. If he wanted to have quantum energy sending him through the air, then he would need to train more...in other words, plop down some XP for a dot in Flight.

For simplicity though, it works like a dot of Flight. If there are four PC novas, and three have one dot in Flight and the other has SS, and the SS nova turns into a sparrow, then goddammit he flies the same speed as everyone else to not bog things down.

Density Decrease, liquids, and gases

Two dots is a good limit, and makes sense. You can't SS into a ghost, after all.

The problem here is the extent of SS's capabilities. Can Shapeshift let you turn into water or any other liquid? Because if it can...then why not a gas? If Shapeshift can let you turn into water or air, then it would essentially let you mimic Bodymorph, and I don't feel comfortable with that.

Then we can argue for the power. Example: SSing into a spider web, which could mimic the Density Decrease power simply because of the dice effects. It's a damn hard feat to do, but if you SS into a spider web covering a doorway (which, now that I think on it, would be perfect for instnatly grappling and gaining the jump on an enemy, and would be perfect if followed up with some kind of smothering effect like with Spatial Manipulation) the effects would be the same.

Liquids though, those are what I'm wierd about. And gases especially. They feel off-limits, going into Bodymorph territory. I can see an argument for SSing into liquids being that the human body is a large portion liquid already. Hmm, comments?

Poison

This one lets me bring up some good points as well.

I disagree with this power initially because, by definition, you could poke someone and give them HIV or Black Death. Poison is actually one of the most versatile q-powers in the book, and is often overlooked. You can deal Bashing or Lethal damage, cause dice pool penalties, or give someone a virus...all at one dot, and from the same power. It's powerful stuff. I personally think they should have split off the "disease" aspects into a seperate power, but whatever...that's for another discussion.

If someone were to simulate a snake and want to mimic it's snake bite, they could take Claws (or whatever appropriate Body Mod for fangs is developed for The New Flesh). But what about it's poison bite? I would allow Poison, on the restriction that it be for the Bashing/Lethal damage or dice pool penalty part. There's no way I'd allow for nova to SS into a snake that gives people AIDS or malaria by biting them (Unless they actually possessed the Poison power itself).

Partially copying powers

Which brings up the issue of only partially copying powers. Adaptability, EM Vision, and Enhanced Hearing come to mind.

My initial logic is telling me that Adaptability itself is fine as long as the whole "not needing to eat or breathe" part is taken away, since I fail to see how SS can remove your need for oxygen and food (unless you have the real Adaptability enhancement). The enhancement itself uses ambient quantum energy to help a nova survive, but SS wouldn't allow you to actually subsist off ambient quantum energies. Again, you're only simulating the effects.

But damn my initial logic, because that has issues. If you SS into a brick, and someone tosses you underwater, should you be forced to SS yourself some Gills, thus breaking your disguise, or should Adaptability still allow you to exist without breathing? Surely bricks don't need oxygen...but you're not an actual brick either. If you SS into an object, not a creature, you'll still need to breathe, and if you're really persistant, you still need to eat. Adaptability exists so if you SS into a deep-sea fish, you could survive ocean-floor pressures. And if you SS into an animal that survives in poisonous marshes, you can survive there as well.

So I think I can do this for Adaptability: since, as BlueNinja brought up, Shapeshift is a Maintenance power...Adaptability can work as normal. If you were shifted into some kind of poison-resilient frog in a poisonous marsh, then you hopped through a Warp into the bottom of an ocean trench, Adaptability would take effect and alter you physically. You would now be an ocean-floor dwelling frog, who now breathes water instead of air and has an altered physiology to survive ocean depths. Or an ocean-floor dwelling brick, if that's the case.

Now, EM Vision and Enhanced Hearing. If you were to Shapeshift into a bat and want sonar, that makes sense. That would be Enhanced Hearing, which gives you Sonar. But that enhancement also gives you Radio Scan. Radio Scan not only lets you percieve radio waves...it lets you fucking transmit radio waves (which seriously should be a q-power by itself, it's inclusion as part of Enhanced Hearing has always baffled me to no end, but whatever). You would be able to turn into a radio-wave-transmitting bat that could also pick up any nearby cellular transmissions and broadcast television stations. Wha...?

However, EM Vision and Enhanced Hearing are nicely split up with different aspects. So in this case, I'd say you could copy one of the aspects for one success. You'd still get the +3 dice bonus that each enhancement gives though. So your bat could use one success to get Sonar, and would still get the +3 dice to hearing rolls.

Sensory Shield

Good question Cottus, one I actually thought about for a while. For SS, again, my logic is telling me that this would need to be defined. If you Shapeshift into a creature with poor hearing, he may not be as affected by sonar attacks, but perhaps his vision isn't changed so he shouldn't get a bonus there.

But, for simplicity, Sensory Shield would apply to all five senses.

Also a point, if you were to Shapeshift your eyes away, you would be immune to visual attacks. One success should do the trick. In fact, one success to shut off any of your five senses (one success for each sense) seems fine with me, unless someone can see a reason otherwise. This can bring up its own issues, like turning off your sense of touch and becoming immune to certain attacks like Stun Attack, but that's a whole different kettle o' nitpick to deal with.

Also, Subdermal Senses is a good option for this kind of effect as well.

[Blue Thunder]

Shapeshifting into not-quite-animals

You're shifted into a dog. Suddenly, someone pulls out a gun. Obviously, dogs aren't very well adjusted to the impact of ballistics. So you want to give yourself Armor. But dogs don't have armored hides.

You're shifted into a book. Someone sets you down on a table, then gets into a fight and is shoved into a bookshelf. The bookshelf is about to fall on you. So you want to give yourself a Tendril and pull yourself out of harms' way. But books don't have Tendrils.

These are fine. This would fall into the whole "turning into dragons and unicorns and Cthulhu" category of transformations. If you can turn into a giant lizard with wings or a horse with a horn, surely you can turn into a dog with a scaley hide or a book with a tentacle.

Alex Green brought up turning into a statue and not being able to move. Here, I disagree with him. If you wanted to hide as a gargoyle statue on a roof, then SS can do that perfectly fine, and not restrict your movements. You aren't actual rock, and you aren't fixed into one pose either, though you could try holding it the best you can (In game terms, one success could keep you fixed into one position without you needing to concentrate on holding it, in other words, no Stamina or Dexterity checks not to budge). You could perhaps use a SS success to give yourself the Immovable Object enhancement so you're securely in place (I would allow SS to give that enhancement if you were to shift into something really heavy), and Armor and Density Increase (see below for DI) to simulate rock. But it's just an appearance. You could also SS into a fleshy gargoyle (as oppossed to rocky) and stand perfectly still as well. The difference is cosmetic...just an outward appearance.

If you wanted to SS into a more believable statue, go with Bodymorph: Rock. SS can make you look like a statue, and with Density Increase and Immovable Object, be damn believable, but you should still be capable of movement.

Density Increase

I said I was iffy on this power, that's because I have no problem really with the first one or two dots, but anything after that is kind of...well, iffy. I would need to judge based on the situation.

The effects of the power itself don't necessarily need to mean "my molecules become more dense" either, since Density Decrease doesn't have to be defined as that either (and in my argument from my first reply, going less dense doesn't let you pass through walls anyway). Cottus' gorilla is a good example, and the powers looks perfect for that change. Heavier, stronger, and a little more health.

Shockwave, and requirements for certain powers/enhancements

Blue Ninja's point is valid about Shockwave. If you SS into a Brachiosaurus, raise yourself onto your backlegs, then smash down with all your strength, shit is gonna shake. In this case, Shockwave is acceptable.

My issue was that, theoritically, someone could use SS and make no changes to themself at all, and just use one success to gain Shockwave. They're normal size, normal weight, and have normal sized feet/hands/body, normally incapable of such a feat. This is why I'm quick to say no to this one.

In this case, I wouldn't allow Shockwave unless you also had Sizemorph (Grow), probably of at least 3 dots so you would have the size and weight and strength necessary. Since Shapeshift is only giving you a physical alteration, and only simulating certain powers, it wouldn't be the real thing. Someone with the actual Shockwave enhancement is channelling quantum to cause his little earthqauke. He could have Strength 1 and Mega-Strength 1, and still be able to use it by punching the ground (it would be weak as hell, but still nothing a baseline could do, or even a nova without the enhancement). Shapeshift doesn't do that, you aren't able to use quantum in that way, the same way you can't SS yourself Flight to go through space.

The limits of Shapeshifting your flesh and organs

I said before that SS was just changing your shape, but that isn't entirely true, otherwise Body Mods wouldn't be an option. Obviously, things like Tendril and Spine and Wings/Patagia can be done through shape altering. But Extra Health Levels and Gills represent inner changes. Gills is more than just warping your shape around, its changing your organs some. Convincingly SSing into animals wouldn't even be an option without Body Mods like Gills. Then we have Body Mods like Dispersed Organs (which I recommend for anyone SSing into objects, like books, otherwise they risk someone stabbing their heart and killing them if they decide to write inside of them with a pen), Nematocysts (which are allowed for the same reason most of Poison is), and Second Brain (splitting your brain into two parts effectively should take practice, but shouldn't be impossible for someone that can turn into a mop or a hydra).

Invisibility

Still not biting, sorry.

*****

Anything else I miss? It's 6:15 AM so I'm going to sleep. I'll answer more tomorrow if I can.

[SkyLion]

Regarding your response Cottus...

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I brought that up what I did to show what a slippery slope we are on...Having control of ones own form and the abilities therien is and should be one of the most powerful and versatile abilities there is, as is does say in its description.

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My point is that its an arbitrary line wherever you draw it and we should err on the side of what shifters can do in source material (comics) which is nearly anything (depending on the shifter and their theme).

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I disagree that creating the above dragon breath should take from oneself...after all...when one grows or uses DI, the extra mass is coming in from outside themselves, or using actual quantum conversion...If we say we can create jacobsens organs then we should be able to create electric eel organs..and the power of those could get pretty high...the real limit is the size and power of the biolgical capacitors...in other words a giant eel could shouck the shit out of something...of course in these cases I would still require the nova to use additional quantum (rather than health) to dish out that energy.

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Also, you are incoorrect about the nature of quantum bolt. You say it is raw quantum..that is actually untrue...I know with james that is how you defined it but in th book it does require you to pick a medum. In other words iots called q-bolt generically but no nova has a pure quantum biolt..theres no such thing as "quantum:" there is strong and weak nuclear, em, and gravity...so novas should pick fire ice, shrapnel, flying flaming skulls etc.

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So yeah, slippery slope. It sounds like what is really being called for is an arbitrary limit for game balance based on the tastes of the St and with some degree of input from the players.

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However, I think that there are many other ways of interpreting it, so lets all remember that. The funny thing about this to me is that having talked with several of you privately i kow that there are more than a few aberrant players who dont really read comics anyways...

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And of course Alex was being argumentative...we all are and thats not a bad thing. I was merely pointing out that I have seen him on numerous occasions basically try and steamroll arguments with his paradigm.. He is a very logical intelligent debater and I think thats a good trait but it frustrates me when he says borderlie antagonistic things like "prove it"...it just sounds smug. Furthermore I think I really have a piont when I say he is by the book when it serves him but throws it out when it doesnt. Sorry if that sounds like hypocasy to me.

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Now is this setled? Are the affected players happy with their newfound nerfin---er limitations? If so then lets get back to the game....

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...wheres Blade 90??? ::unsure

[Blade90]

...wheres Blade 90???

Sorry everyone. Last few days have been a little busy for me over here.