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Aberrant RPG - Novas in the WOD


Alex Green

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The problem is, again, most of the past precedents are identical in the Aeonverse, and yet even without ever meeting one, there is no significant portion of the population that disbelieves in novas circa 2008.

Yeah, it won't be an immediate paradigm shift, but in ten years? I don't see it being avoided.

1) So what do people think novas can do... meaning that if I claim I'm a nova, what do they expect?

2) How believeable is it to claim that I'm a nova? Especially if I lack the nova physic?

I suspect "2" is especially important. In a hostile situation, I can make a threatening motion and reach into an empty sack and pull out a gun.

I think it's a big change to go from, "Mages can't do vulgar magic" to, "Since in theory a nova might exist somewhere on the planet who can do this, so can all mages". If I'm missing something or misrepresenting something please correct me.

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1. Depends on the nova. ;-) OTOH, there are things people would more easily buy. Flying, superstrength, mind control, those would pass easily. Summoning spirits of the dead? Not so much.

If a mechanic is desired, I'd say it depends on what the well known public novas have done. Whatever the public ones do, can be passed more readily, and when the public nova power list exceeds a certain point, it shades into "anything that looks novasish."

2. Problem is, not all novas have the nova physique, and its not always noticeable even on the ones who do. Or rather, its an inclusive, rather than exclusive, determination. It also would be an obvious thing to fake, for any mage with access to illusory or life alterring magick. . .

That said, not having a nova physique would work against a mage trying to pass. So would obviously depending on ritual or focus, as the vast majority of novas don't. So, the rule of thumb would be you could pass most magick as coincidental *if* you don't use a ritual or focus to enhance it, and if you don't have ordinary appearance that overtly contradicts the nova physique. Which means its a new tradeoff.

Technomagick would be an exception, though, once mega-smart nova scientists start working their own miracles. . .

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Meaning they don't have any powers that do Agg and they don't regen in combat so even Werewolf attacks and the like are just lethal.
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Wrong man....all the WoD exist in the same universe...if a werewolf is attacking the hunter and they do agg damage to everything including baselines etc...then the attack is going to come from *their* system....dead squishy hunter....

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Once people accept that novas exist, I see no reason why that *wouldn't* include flying and throwing powerbolts. Yeah, that totally blows away major genre conventions of the WoD...

That's a HUGE step where most people never meet a nova, many or most 3rd world people get distorted rumors, the "weight of history" is directly opposed, and nova powers don't seem real even in person. Worse, even if you meet a nova you still don't know what's believeable from them.

IMHO it's like claiming that because Superman (the character) exists, and everyone knows this, a mage could mimic his powers and most people would reflexively think a movie is being filmed.

I think it's a big change to go from, "Mages can't do vulgar magic" to, "Since in theory a nova might exist somewhere on the planet who can do this, so can all mages". If I'm missing something or misrepresenting something please correct me.

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actually if you could rig the setup so that it looked like a movie set this would work. You would proabably need the stage magic skill to set it up properly but Technocrats use this kind of bluff all the time...Oh its just a show...That wasn't a marauder, it was swamp gas etc...

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The real problem in a crossover is this, and I believe this will answer your question Alex:

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If Novas suddenyl popped up in the WoD it would seriously upset the Technocracies plans for a nice stable and orderly world. However they couldn't just ignore the super beings popping up...As soon as even one person saw them the idea of "superbeings among us" would spread like wildfire. Remember that even Werewolves and vampires and all supernormal things in the WOD are supposed to exist in the shadows, out of the limelight.

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So depending on how many Novas popped up would dictate the response...

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If its just a handful, the technocracy would bring their *considerable* resources to bear....think you are invisble and cant find you? Every phone and computer is tapped by ItX and the NWO. The Syndicate can track the metal strips in your cash via sttelite.

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If its just a few Novas they would try and irradicate them...hard, and fast and then NWO MIB Mages would come and mindwipe all witnesses..problem solved. If somehow a newscrew was filming one live, then they might claim it was a movie, or up their super-tech timetable and claim that it was a prototype holo simulator test or a prototype powersuit etc.

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If you doubt the effectiveness of their ability to control and spin, consider that Marauders have summoned Ancient Dragons in Downtown Manhattan and they were able to mop up and everyone is still asleep.

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Now, if it was widescale, unspinnable, massive eruptions (like an N-Day happening) or If Divis Mal came out and was just so mighty that he couldnt be ignored, then they would have to explain things to the Sleepers...

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They would get a couple of experts...Scientists of course, doctors, say with names like Mazarin and Rashoud would would detail the Science of these beings. They would learn about Nodes and someone might disseminate the theory that they could do "theorteically anything."

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In this case the technocracy would spin it in such a way as it was scientifically accepted and THEN....once people know "what Novas are" then any mage...tradition or technocrat...could impersonate one...especially by getting in a flashy costume.

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Remember that Technocrats are the paradigm controls...ALL technology is the WOD really is magic (a way of altering reality with will). They would have a far easier time leaping onto this new bandwagon because they understand and explian it scientifically.

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Not that tradition mages couldn't impersonate Novas...they would be just far less inclined to simply becasue they are fighting so hard to hang onto *their* Traditions....their ancient way of going about things, whether its playing drums to get into a spirit trance or training in a dojo to work your "chi" etc etc...

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1. Depends on the nova. ;-) OTOH, there are things people would more easily buy. Flying, superstrength, mind control, those would pass easily.
Why do these things "pass easily" if they don't look believeable even when a nova does it? Is that the entire point of Paradox and Sleepers and what they believe?

Example: I see a man flying, I reflexively disbelieve that this is possible, then I look for the movie crew and accept that this is what is going on. Isn't it already too late for a mage at the point where I "reflexively disbelieve"? Isn't that the point where Paradox is invoked?

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Why do these things "pass easily" if they don't look believeable even when a nova does it? Is that the entire point of Paradox and Sleepers and what they believe?

Example: I see a man flying, I reflexively disbelieve that this is possible, then I look for the movie crew and accept that this is what is going on. Isn't it already too late for a mage at the point where I "reflexively disbelieve"? Isn't that the point where Paradox is invoked?

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See above post...and yes..the movie setup would have to be established.

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Wrong man....all the WoD exist in the same universe...if a werewolf is attacking the hunter and they do agg damage to everything including baselines etc...then the attack is going to come from *their* system....dead squishy hunter....
First, the Hunter book agrees with you about the inadvisability of Hunters engaging Werewolves in combat.

Second, the point I was making is that Hunters don’t need to distinguish between lethal and Aggravated WOD damage because they already have no way to regen it. If they take agg then they have to suck it up and take a long time to heal. If they take lethal … then they have to do the same, using the same chart. Hunters also already need armor to soak lethal damage (so ditto Agg).

As far as I can tell, hunters have no need to tell the difference between WOD Aggravated damage and WOD lethal damage because everything for them is Aggravated (or lethal, or whatever you want to call it).

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actually if you could rig the setup so that it looked like a movie set this would work. You would proabably need the stage magic skill to set it up properly…
I buy this, but… let’s say I walk in from off stage and don’t see the movie equipment until afterward. So at the actual time I’m making my reflexive evaluation, it’s shear disbelieve. One minute after that I go looking and find the movie equipment.

So, did the mage accidentally pull vulgar magic in front of a sleeper or not? Does my finding a reasonable explanation after the fact stop the reality police from going after him?

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As far as I can tell, hunters have no need to tell the difference between WOD Aggravated damage and WOD lethal damage because everything for them is Aggravated (or lethal, or whatever you want to call it).

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Except that (should you somehow manage to not just die...like they leave you for dead) then you would never heal and be crippled...maybe a good hook for a hunter making friends with a Life-Mage...

I buy this, but… let's say I walk in from off stage and don't see the movie equipment until afterward. So at the actual time I'm making my reflexive evaluation, it's shear disbelieve. One minute after that I go looking and find the movie equipment.

So, did the mage accidentally pull vulgar magic in front of a sleeper or not? Does my finding a reasonable explanation after the fact stop the reality police from going after him?

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Coincidental magic just has to somehow seem coincidental.. So a gas main could blow up under someone (a coincidental fireball). A sleepers first reaction would still be "Oh Sh*&!" but then there would be the rational explanation. So you are asking about a grey area here, but in general there needs to be a setup.

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However you could use matter or coorespondence to take the bullets out of someones gun (oops! he forgot to load it) Ever have that feeling where you could have "sworn" you remember leaving something somewhere but can't find it? Similar theory...theres alwas that niggling doubt while you are searching since you may have just forgotten it...

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Except that (should you somehow manage to not just die...like they leave you for dead) then you would never heal and be crippled...maybe a good hook for a hunter making friends with a Life-Mage...
So far we've checked in three books and haven't seen the "never heals" part. Only "doesn't regen".
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Aberrant page 254: Against baselines (normal humans w/o healing or regen), agg damage is permanent..the wound never heals...
Exactly. That's why we keep coming back to the idea that WOD Aggravated damage isn't the same thing as Eon Aggravated.

And let me just say that my books are pretty old, so if someone can come up with something more current that would change things.

Was there a Werewolf 3rd addition?

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Exactly. That's why we keep coming back to the idea that WOD Aggravated damage isn't the same thing as Eon Aggravated.

And let me just say that my books are pretty old, so if someone can come up with something more current that would change things.

Was there a Werewolf 3rd addition?

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yes...let me take a look...

Hmmm...well thats interesting...

page 206 werewolf 3rd:

Normail humans can soak only bashing damage. They are very frail in comparison to werewolves. (Storytellers who prefer more resilient humans, such as for representing soldiers or other rugged types, may allow humans to soak lethal damage at difficulty 8).
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and then page 187 (ironically enough) in the sidebar "Human Injury"

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Aggravated damage heals as if it were lethal for humans. The only signifigant difference is that aggravated damage is harder to heal through supernatural means.
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So it looks like there is a discrepancy between the two systems...

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Check this out though as for WoD sources of AGG.

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Werewolf page 186:

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Aggravated damage represents the most grievous tissue damage and is often supernatural in origin. A werewolf's claws and teeth inflict aggravated damage, as do fire, acid, and other sources of extreme trauma--such as chainsaw wounds

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and then Mage 3rd edition page 246:

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Damage caused by vulgar magic that attacks the targets Pattern directly falls into this category, as does attacks made by the fangs, claws and unnatural powers of supernatural monsters like werewolves and vampires. In addition, damage that affects the character's whole body, like radiation, or exposure to vaccuum, explosions or other massive trauma, is also aggravated. Aggravated damage can be healed only by using vulgar Life Effects or with time and rest (Note from me...using Prime would work as would using time magic to speed up recovery for any type of wound...) On top of that, a mage must spend a minimum of one point of Quintessence to heal each level of aggravated damage, In all other ways, aggravated damage should be treated as ordinary lethal damage. It takes just as long time to heal, and it makes a mage just as dead.
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ditto for the vampire 3rd edition...

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however I think the discrepancy in the healing part comes more from the game designers lack of consistency than any planned difference in scale...

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Why do these things "pass easily" if they don't look believeable even when a nova does it? Is that the entire point of Paradox and Sleepers and what they believe?

Example: I see a man flying, I reflexively disbelieve that this is possible, then I look for the movie crew and accept that this is what is going on. Isn't it already too late for a mage at the point where I "reflexively disbelieve"? Isn't that the point where Paradox is invoked?

The point is, once novas are publically accepted, the initial reflex *won't* be reflexive disbelief, and certainly not sustained reflexive disbelief, anymore.

Granted again, its not going to be instant. But ten years after N-Day, people are not going to be assuming that nova powers are impossible.

Um, I'm reading all your quotes, Skylion, and not a single one says that aggravated damage is unhealable to mortals, or any less soakable than lethal damage. I think this well establishes the fact that mortals *do* heal agg damage, as lethal.

And yes, this is different than Aeonverse agg damage. We've only been saying that since the beginning.

So, could we *finally* admit that werewolves and vampires are going to neither claw through bank vaults, nor brick novas, and get on with things!! ::brick

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Yes. My main WoD ST always used 1st edition rules. Thats why I finaly went and looked up the actual quotes and posted them from 3rd edition. Personally I dont see why there should be a discrepancy between the systems but there is. *shrug*

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I can always admit when I stand corrected..

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Carry on. ::smile

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The point is, once novas are publicly accepted, the initial reflex *won't* be reflexive disbelief, and certainly not sustained reflexive disbelief, anymore.
OK, Problem. 10 years on, nova powers are described as "surreal" and "disturbing" (see the Mega-Wits section talk about this… basically it says that with repeated exposure, the various Mega-Physical powers can become only “surreal”). My thesaurus claims other meanings for “surreal” are strange, weird, odd, unreal, dreamlike, fantastic, and bizarre.

My impression is the reflex, even with real novas ten years on from people who know better, is *still* disbelief. Granted, it isn’t sustained disbelief, people don’t try to explain it as mundane phenomena… but the reflex is still there. The desire to make a reality check is still there.

The issue then is whether that reflex is enough to cause problems with Mages.

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OK, Problem. 10 years on, nova powers are described as "surreal" and "disturbing" (see the Mega-Wits section talk about this… basically it says that with repeated exposure, the various Mega-Physical powers can become only "surreal"). My thesaurus claims other meanings for "surreal" are strange, weird, odd, unreal, dreamlike, fantastic, and bizarre.

My impression is the reflex, even with real novas ten years on from people who know better, is *still* disbelief. Granted, it isn't sustained disbelief, people don't try to explain it as mundane phenomena… but the reflex is still there. The desire to make a reality check is still there.

The issue then is whether that reflex is enough to cause problems with Mages.

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It will always seem surreal to those w/o powers

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The issue is whether or not they buy the Scientific Explantaion (Since the Technocratic paradigm is dominant)

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Often new/prototype tech seems surreal and people disbelieve it...

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Case in Point....People still disbelieve that we landed on the Moon...It was VERY surreal at the time...but the technocracy got away with it...mostly since people trust the news media so much.

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In other words, as soon as newscasters start talking about superhumans the paradigm has already changed...

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It will always seem surreal to those w/o powers,,

The issue is whether or not they buy the Scientific Explantaion (Since the Technocratic paradigm is dominant)

You just hit the nail on the head. It will always seem surreal to those w/o powers.

Novas, obviously, won't care.

Mages on the other hand are not really novas and need to care about such things.

If mages pull obvious, surreal, magic in front of sleepers who think it's surreal and who reflexively disbelieve, Doesn't that invoke paradox big time?

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OK, Problem. 10 years on, nova powers are described as "surreal" and "disturbing" (see the Mega-Wits section talk about this… basically it says that with repeated exposure, the various Mega-Physical powers can become only “surreal”). My thesaurus claims other meanings for “surreal” are strange, weird, odd, unreal, dreamlike, fantastic, and bizarre.

My impression is the reflex, even with real novas ten years on from people who know better, is *still* disbelief. Granted, it isn’t sustained disbelief, people don’t try to explain it as mundane phenomena… but the reflex is still there. The desire to make a reality check is still there.

The issue then is whether that reflex is enough to cause problems with Mages.

In that case, how about I explain my idea of the resultant, which might likely seem a compromise:

Basically, two categories of magick could get by as coincidental thanks to nova presence.

Firstly, technomagick. Its really not possible to distinguish between nova superscience and advancements, and technomagick, for the most part. So, once nova supergeniuses start having a noticeable effect, I'd expect technomagick to become almost entirely coincidental.

Secondly, mages intentionally trying to pass for novas. This would range from simply avoiding overtly mystical components to spells, to intentionally alterring your appearance to gain a nova physique or anima banner, to going public and claiming to be a nova with demonstrations of 'quantum power' to prove it. Efficacy here would depend on the individual. An Akashic trying to pass himself for a nova martial artist? Probably needs barely any effort. A Cultist of Ecstasy trying to claim his highs give him time powers? Not so much, given novas aren't even supposed to get high off drugs ( normally ).

Now, things that would, despite the changes in public belief, still be vulgar:

1. Extreme magickal feats. If it was vulgar back in the Age of Myths, its still vulgar now. And even with a Q8 nova does Performance Asteroid Vaporization weekly, with live television feed and high ratings, trying to blow up England with a ritual spell is still going to vaporize *you* first.

2. Spirit/Soul magick. Nova powers are scientific and secular. As such, they are unlikely to help somebody in raising the dead or tearing someone's soul out.

3. Dimensional Travel. Nova powers don't really deal with the idea of other dimensions enough in the standard setting to help this field any. Similarly, the Gauntlet is unlikely to be effected much.

As a side matter, one other potential complication is religion, and nova religions. Specifically, even in the Aberrant settings, quite a few novas picked up worship as gods, or otherwise established religious sects. This opens up possibilities that mages could exploit such nova worship, and pass of their magick as nova powers, sort of, to suitable cultists. Basically the same thing they do in the WoD, except more open, since everyone else will assume its 'just' another religious cult centered around a nova.

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If it has to be a Q8 effect to be vulgar, then that implies that all mages just became Q6 novas.

RE: Public Mage-Novas

Problem #1:

Said mage does his thing in front of 100 people. 95 believe, 5 don't think it can be real.

Question: Does this make the effect vulgar?

Problem #2:

Mages don't have nodes. Other novas will claim they aren't novas and aren't using quantum. What happens then?

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If it has to be a Q8 effect to be vulgar, then that implies that all mages just became Q6 novas.

RE: Public Mage-Novas

Problem #1:

Said mage does his thing in front of 100 people. 95 believe, 5 don't think it can be real.

Question: Does this make the effect vulgar?

Problem #2:

Mages don't have nodes. Other novas will claim they aren't novas and aren't using quantum. What happens then?

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1.Nope...there is a reason it is called "consensus reality" or just "The Consensus." All you need is a critical mass of people who "know" and "trust what the experts/scientists are saying on the news" for it to be a completel paradigm shift. Look at how the world has had faster and faster change over the last 100 years...in the WOD thats the Technocracy ramping up their timetable...it took time for PCs to be fully accepted and it even states that new technology is "glitchy" precisely because they are working out "the kinks" in realities acceptance...Also things tend to start unrefined...case in point: early ERMAC like vaccuum-tube computing...or even Babbage's "Difference Engine."

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2. With life and prime you could actually grow a real permanent node and become a real Nova.

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Otherwise its their word against yours...Its all in the showmanship, HOW you pull it off is what makes the distinction between vulgar and coincidental. Prime and Forces conjunct rote could duplicate a Q-Sig too...

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If it has to be a Q8 effect to be vulgar, then that implies that all mages just became Q6 novas.

Nononono, I'm saying that even vastly greater end nova feats aren't going to adjust the 'extreme feat' benchmarks, no matter how public. The extreme feat benchmark is still going to be as defined in Mage.

RE: Public Mage-Novas

Problem #1:

Said mage does his thing in front of 100 people. 95 believe, 5 don't think it can be real.

Question: Does this make the effect vulgar?

I doubt it. Majority consensus favors them being real. Especially if the disbelief is the 'wishy washy,' reflexive type.

Problem #2:

Mages don't have nodes. Other novas will claim they aren't novas and aren't using quantum. What happens then?

Depends on how publically the novas denounce them, and whether they even realize this any time soon.

This really factors into an entire separate question, namely "supernatural critters going public." In theory, this could be handled simply by going "Really, I'm not a nova? How is that possible, I'm clearly doing superhuman feats! Is there more than one type of superhuman, or something?" and going from there. In practice, this is probably the point where the Aberrant War starts early, except with the native supernaturals on the receiving end.

1.Nope...there is a reason it is called "consensus reality" or just "The Consensus." All you need is a critical mass of people who "know" and "trust what the experts/scientists are saying on the news" for it to be a completel paradigm shift. Look at how the world has had faster and faster change over the last 100 years...in the WOD thats the Technocracy ramping up their timetable...it took time for PCs to be fully accepted and it even states that new technology is "glitchy" precisely because they are working out "the kinks" in realities acceptance...Also things tend to start unrefined...case in point: early ERMAC like vaccuum-tube computing...or even Babbage's "Difference Engine."

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2. With life and prime you could actually grow a real permanent node and become a real Nova.

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Otherwise its their word against yours...Its all in the showmanship, HOW you pull it off is what makes the distinction between vulgar and coincidental. Prime and Forces conjunct rote could duplicate a Q-Sig too...

No offense, but I am very skeptical of any mage just being able to grow a functional MR-Node, especially a permanent one. Fake one, yeah. Turn yourself into a nova, not so much. For one thing, they wouldn't have the slightest clue how this new organ their trying to grow works, in either mystic or scientific terms. . .

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Majority consensus favors them being real. Especially if the disbelief is the 'wishy washy,' reflexive type.
Let me run a question past you all.

Under current WOD rules, I'm a mage and I want to use a vulgar magical effect (flight) but I've taken the time to disguise it. I have the money and have arranged for the current “Superman” film to be filmed where I want to use this effect. I’ve spent weeks advertising this. Everyone knows where and when I’m going to do this, and they think they know how as well. But when you really come right down to it, I am going to use Vulgar magic.

At the appointed time, I do my thing.

Problem: A trio of bums didn’t hear about what I was going to do, and they didn’t recognize the set up. Worse, security thought they were actors and didn’t toss them out. They see me flying, they know they aren’t drunk, and they know I *can’t* be doing what I am doing.

Question: Am I screwed then and there, or can I explain it to them after the fact that this is a movie set?

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Let me run a question past you all.

Under current WOD rules, I'm a mage and I want to use a vulgar magical effect (flight) but I've taken the time to disguise it. I have the money and have arranged for the current “Superman” film to be filmed where I want to use this effect. I’ve spent weeks advertising this. Everyone knows where and when I’m going to do this, and they think they know how as well. But when you really come right down to it, I am going to use Vulgar magic.

At the appointed time, I do my thing.

Problem: A trio of bums didn’t hear about what I was going to do, and they didn’t recognize the set up. Worse, security thought they were actors and didn’t toss them out. They see me flying, they know they aren’t drunk, and they know I *can’t* be doing what I am doing.

Question: Am I screwed then and there, or can I explain it to them after the fact that this is a movie set?

( I am assuming what you mean is WoD1.0, not 2.0, as 2.0 has some entirely different cosmological assumption that would change my response entirely )

Actually, I'd say your not screwed at all. The situation is akin to having someone accidentally wander in to a cult gathering. Because the vast majority of the people there entirely believe that whats happening is possible, its coincidental. You don't need to convince the bums of anything, except maybe to keep them for causing trouble for you later.

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For the record, I entirely agree with the idea that "novas would not change the paradigm" if we are talking about the World of Darkness 2.0. Of course, this is because there *is* no 'paradigm,' as defined in the old Mage system. Paradox isn't a result of disbelief, its a side effect of drawing the supernal into the material excessively or incorrectly. Sleepers trigger greater paradox not because they don't believe in magic, but because they are connected to the Abyss too strongly, and thus "get in the way" of invoking the supernal.

Having novas show up in the WoD2.0 might result in a greater tendency to become either dreamers or mages ( due to less inherent resistance, on the subconscious level, to the idea of touching the supernal ), and it would certainly would throw a massive monkey wrench in the plans of the Seers of the Throne. What it wouldn't do, is make magic any easier to do in public. That would require fundamental metaphysical changes in humanity and the greater universe.

So one sleeper doesn't count? I could have 17 mages openly using vulgar magic, and even if they are seen, it doesn't matter as long as the number of sleepers is small?

Nope, because mages don't count for the purposes here. ::biggrin

Now, if you had one mage, and seventeen fully believing sleeper cultists, *then* you could get away with it. As for the cutoff point, hmm, pretty much ST discretion, I'd say, but no higher than 10%.

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When did 2.0 come out? Is that the current version?

He doesnt mean a different "edition" They "revamped" the game entirely...IMHO so they could sell more books...

The WoD was pretty darn complete...I have several shelves filled with its tomes.

Unfortuantely RPGs dont lend themselves easily to repeat customers....you have got to come up with a reason for people to buy more books...

Now if only they would release some non D20 Trinity stuff... ::brick

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When did 2.0 come out? Is that the current version?

Couple years back, actually. And yeah, its the current version, its just its a complete setting-wide reboot.

Essentially, same names, some similar themes, but totally different world and game.

For the record, the result of N-Day happening in the current WoD: more or less exactly what happens in the Aeonverse, as none of the native supernaturals have the power or resources to seriously hinder or exploit it.

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