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Aberrant RPG - Novas in the WOD


Alex Green

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Finbar: I'm not sure if Quantum would be detected as, say, Quintessence by mages and blood by vamps. Although they would feel the power, I'm not sure if they would necessarily sense in terms of their own power base, especially when it's not, well, magical.

The reason I think each should sense it as their own power base is that in WOD everything is basically quintessence anways, such as the power of blood being the Q inside it (IIRC). Assuming that quintessence and quantum are really the same thing at base (quantum just not being flavored towards a specfic WOD type) then it makes sense that each would sense it as their own.....

Finbar: Especially when mages can sense Forces...Sense Wyrm works because Quantum is sensed like a nuclear energy, and Sense Wyrm can be theoretically used that way, not because of the corruption it represents...

I personally disagree that quantum should always be sensed as nuclear forces. Quantum does incorporate strong and weak nuclear forces, but also electromagnetic and gravitational forces. While in many cases quantum effects could be sensed as nuclear, in many they wouldn't.

Mages using Forces to sense nova quantum... I would say that depends completely on the nova power(s) being used. Entropy woud be used to sense Entropy Control techniques, with Time for Temporal Manipulation, as examples. Prime to sense the base Q-Pool (Q-Trait being just a measure like dots in a sphere), and a nova with no active effects, no megas and no q-points not being sensed except possibly as awakened.

Some other examples: Life for mega physicals, Mind for mega mentals, Spirit for mega socials, Prime for Q-Leech, Mind for Telepathy, Forces for Q-Bolt (depending on the nature of the power), Correspondence for Warp, and so on with the ST deciding where the power best fits within the Spheres.

Moving on to vamps... I think they'd sense Q-Pool as blood, and powers as disciplines (mega strength as potence for example).

I see this as giving the ST more leeway in the interaction between mages and novas.

Of course taint as wyrm works great.

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I'll let other people respond to the Bank Vault test before I comment.

Sense Wyrm works because Quantum is sensed like a nuclear energy

Unclear. Maybe yes, maybe no. As far as I know, a radiation detector won't pick up Quantum. Nuclear Reactors generate quantum. Nuclear Reactors also generate whatever Sense Wyrm picks up. I have no clue what Sense Wyrm is supposed to detect or how it works. Thus I'm not in a possition to have an opinion, but Nuke plants give out lots of stuff, and it's a bit of a logical leap to say that Novas are nuke generators.

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Ive sat this out for awhile cuz frankly I dont have the time.

,,

Just wanted to clarify that Sense wyrm senses...the Wyrm....a cosmological force of incomprehensible dimension...in balance thought to be the force of benevolent destruction that allows for the continued new creation every moment (a la Shiva), though in WOD has become corrupted and The Corruptor. Sense wyrm senses evil spirits (Banes) polution...toxic waste, radiation...essesntially all those things that destroy and undermine life. Quantum wouldnt show up neccesarily, though Taint almost for sure would, especially considering how it can blight areas in the way the Wyrm would.

,,

What we have is a cosmological discussion. If Blighted or tainted novas went into the WOD they would be under the aegis of the Wyrm. If others went to the aberrant world, where there is no cosmological lovecraftian non-entity/entity/force then thats a different story...

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Sense wyrm senses evil spirits (Banes) polution...toxic waste, radiation...essesntially all those things that destroy and undermine life.

That's Taint all right... but not Quantum. Thank you.

On a side note that would also detect any use of EM:Toxic Waste or EM:Radiation... but that probably goes without saying.

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1) Actually, you should be able to detect an untainted, undormed nova with Forces or Sense Wyrm; although the radiation is contained rather well, so you couldn't detect it a geiger counter (unless you were right ontop of the nova), it is worth noting that Node can detect not only novas, but other sources of quantum as well, as well as absorbing the stuff for use at a high enough Node rating (as per the APB). If Sense Wyrm could detect a cyclotron, why couldn't it detect a nova?

In essence, you need to realize that a nova is a focal point of quantum energies, and should be treated as such...

2) No. Quantum energies should not be treated as Quintessence. Although I appreciate that the mages see it in everything, it just feels like you're looking too hard for analogical materials. You need to treat them as two seperate things...

FR

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I can't recall anything that says Sense Wyrm could detect a cyclotron. *Node* can spot a cyclotron, but I doubt node would detect taint, as such.

( Quantum Attunement, I'd argue, *could* detect significant taint, or other supernatural influences, as even if they have no scientific cause or nature, they have *effects* on the stuff that amounts to the quantum field. Plus, similarities to taint )

I can't recall anything that says Sense Wyrm could detect a cyclotron. *Node* can spot a cyclotron, but I doubt node would detect taint, as such.

( Quantum Attunement, I'd argue, *could* detect significant taint, or other supernatural influences, as even if they have no scientific cause or nature, they have *effects* on the stuff that amounts to the quantum field. Plus, similarities to taint )

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although the radiation is contained rather well, so you couldn't detect it a geiger counter (unless you were right ontop of the nova),

Unless they have taint issues (and usually not then) novas aren't radioactive.

If Sense Wyrm could detect a cyclotron, why couldn't it detect a nova?

As I understand it, what Sense Wyrm senses in a cyclotron is the radiation, and radioactive waste, both of which WOD defines as life twisting things.

RE: Bank Vault Test

Is no one going to argue against this? Again, put a Strength 1 Were or Vamp in a Bank vault. They have a 1 die Agg attack, can they cut through the vault or can't they? (Mages and Novas we've already claimed are not stuck).

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Depends on the mage, actually. If all they can do is charge a normal attack with extra Prime to do agg, then they are still stuck. OTOH, the upper end Prime tricks that basically disintegrate stuff would certainly work, as would equivalent Matter tricks ( even though Matter spells never do agg, as they don't target people ).

You know, I think maybe a thread on the various different kinds and definitions of "aggravated damage" in the different WW universes might be in order. . .

P.S.: I'm glad no one is arguing that a vampire could bite his way out of a safe. ;-)

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Depends on the mage, actually. If all they can do is charge a normal attack with extra Prime to do agg, then they are still stuck.

As I understand it, no, they aren't. Ignoring juice issues, a strength = 1 punch that is Agg can *still* carve his way out eventually.

EDIT: Wait a moment. You mean that a mage low level agg attack *still* doesn't ignore soak for the Bank Vault? (I was thinking the Mage attacks were the equiv of Claws+Agg).

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It heals normally. The mortal is only as maimed as if he got hit by any other source of four lethal damage. Admittedly, in the WoD, I'm pretty sure its within ST discretion to rule that NPC mortals that take that much damage may be feeling it for the rest of their life in one way or another ( ie, various Flaws ), but they still heal it.

( note that the idea of "healing normally" is a bit complicated in the case of supernaturals, because most of them *don't* ever heal normally; weres regen even agg at 1/day, which is damn fast, while vampires only ever heal via blood expenditure, which is higher than norm for agg )

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It heals normally. The mortal is only as maimed as if he got hit by any other source of four lethal damage. Admittedly, in the WoD, I'm pretty sure its within ST discretion to rule that NPC mortals that take that much damage may be feeling it for the rest of their life in one way or another ( ie, various Flaws ), but they still heal it.

( note that the idea of "healing normally" is a bit complicated in the case of supernaturals, because most of them *don't* ever heal normally; weres regen even agg at 1/day, which is damn fast, while vampires only ever heal via blood expenditure, which is higher than norm for agg )

sorry dude but you are wrong....humans that get mauled by werewolves, if they arent dead for some reason are maimed for life. Werewolves can soak agg except from silver and they can get maimed too,..there are rules for "battle scars" etc...

in other words, werwolves do agg damage to everything...

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Yes, they do do agg to everything. . . everything *living*.

Btw, the battle scar rules, IIRC, don't deal with healing at all per se. They deal with side effects of either taking agg, or taking lethal in excess of your health levels. I don't doubt that werewolf claws do permanent scarring and side effects on mortals, but I don't remember a single thing about the health levels taken being any harder to heal than normal lethal.

Whats more, none of this has anything to do with the idea of agg being even a meaningful concept for object damage in the WoD.

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Yes, they do do agg to everything. . . everything *living*.

Btw, the battle scar rules, IIRC, don't deal with healing at all per se. They deal with side effects of either taking agg, or taking lethal in excess of your health levels. I don't doubt that werewolf claws do permanent scarring and side effects on mortals, but I don't remember a single thing about the health levels taken being any harder to heal than normal lethal.

Whats more, none of this has anything to do with the idea of agg being even a meaningful concept for object damage in the WoD.

Sorry dude but you're wrong on this one (no offesnse or anything but I have played werewolf for years)

You will have to wait awhile for me to prove it since my books are packed in another city but I assure you that werewolves can rend objects, walls, steel etc. as efficiently as they do people. Werewolf claws do agg. period. and humans cant heal agg damage. period. The battle scar rules are what happensd to werewolves who play with silver or who just take such massive damage that it overloads their regenerative ability.

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And I honestly don't care what you've been doing in your game for years. WoD1.0 has never had any rules for inflicting Agg to objects. Yeah, werewolves can tear stuff up, but thats because of the high Str and lethal base damage. If you've had werewolves tearing through steel vault doors, you've been playing the game wrong.

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Firstly its not Enron, its Pentex. Usually the secret spirit/Wyrm stuff is hidden away in umbral realms and heavily guarded by Banes and Formori as well as such places are usually located in Evil Corrupted Nodes that spew toxic (agg damage causing) waste, sludge and/or radioactive balefire, which is way worse than any man made radioactve plasma/nuclear energy...

Second, and I will be posting up the appropriate quotes when I have access to my books again, it does say that werewolves claws and teeth do agg damage. No there arent rules for object damage besides the usual vehicle health levels and such.

I think the problem is that people here at Eon equate agg with total tissue distruction. A mortal is going to have as impossible a time healing agg damage as a vampire will... There is a reason why vampires and just about everything else (including the other changing breeds) are scared $#!^less of werewolves...

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And the problem is, not a single time did they say that mortals can't heal agg. Supernaturals can't heal agg *supernaturally*, but note that Mages can heal agg as lethal, despite the lack of any inherent physical superhuman powers.

And yes, there's no rules for dealing agg to objects specially. Thats because agg is only a meaningful concept to targets that can heal damage, ie, people.

The main reason why all the other supernaturals are scared of werewolves is because they are twink combat machines. Its not that they do agg, so much as that they do lots of agg, with a large attack dice pool, while also have high soak and regen, and multiple actions that can be replenished in combat. If they only did lethal with their claws, they'd still be 90% as deadly to anything not a werewolf.

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I got my Werewolf book out and looked it up. As of 2nd addition, Aggravated is soakable by normal armor (meaning that objects soak it normally), and there's *nothing* in there about normals not healing Agg. Agg damage is just damage werewolves heal only once per day.

There are also rules for inflicting "maimed" on people, but that's a different issue not related to life levels.

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Querries for discussion:

Could a mage use the Forces Sphere to counterspell a forces-like attack (say Q-Bolt) form a nova?

The nova's attack isn't magical, but it certainly isn't natural either.

What about counterspelling other forms of nova powers?

How would the natural resistances and vulnerabilities react to nova powers?

Say a sunlight like effect from a nova on a vampire; the effect isn't natural, nor is it magical or even mundane.

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Querries for discussion:

Could a mage use the Forces Sphere to counterspell a forces-like attack (say Q-Bolt) form a nova?

The nova's attack isn't magical, but it certainly isn't natural either.

What about counterspelling other forms of nova powers?

How would the natural resistances and vulnerabilities react to nova powers?

Say a sunlight like effect from a nova on a vampire; the effect isn't natural, nor is it magical or even mundane.

I wouldn't allow a "counterspell", per se, but a mage could certainly use Forces to diminish or redirect a Q-bolt of appropriate definition ( almost any, really ).

As for vampires and nova sunlight, up to the ST. My inclination is to say it would work, as long as it is definitely defined as "sunlight," not just any light. Certainly, I'd expect the nova that comes to mind from my campaign, the Champion of Ra, to vaporize any vampire just from being nearby. . .

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Could a mage use the Forces Sphere to counterspell a forces-like attack (say Q-Bolt) form a nova?

Deflect, divert, or whatever. Sure he could. Of course that's probably vulgar magic, but what the hey.

How would the natural resistances and vulnerabilities react to nova powers?

Mostly normally. So novas that wield fire or silver are going to have advantages. Light is tougher since it appears to be specific to sunlight, but with Q5 even that could be done.

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Most immunitires would work no problem; it would definitely be interesting to see a kumo or vamp up against a pant-controller...

Sunlight would be a debate: It requires actual sunlight, and I'm usually annoyed when I see infrared used to damage vamps, but that's just me...

FR

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Most immunitires would work no problem; it would definitely be interesting to see a kumo or vamp up against a pant-controller...
pant-controller?
Sunlight would be a debate: It requires actual sunlight, and I'm usually annoyed when I see infrared used to damage vamps, but that's just me...
Warp would work. In theory someone could have EM: Sunlight but I think EM:Light is what people do normally.

I think we have to call the various "light" powers that novas can use "light" and not "sunlight" (Bodymorph: Sunlight, seems very twinkish considering Bodymorph doesn't make you pure anything, you just mimic properties). On the other hand, "fire" is pretty common as a nova power.

Do Vamps take extra damage from Silver? (I know Werewolves can't soak it). Do Fae take extra damage from Iron?

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RE: The Fae

Is that Agg and Unsoakable?

Vamps aren't bothered by silver one way or another. OTOH, fae take aggravated damage from cold iron. Though, it'd be a damn odd nova whose powers involved controlling or turning into *cold* iron. . .
Magnetic Manips, Bodymorph:Iron/Steel, Matter Creators, & Molecular Manips are all pretty common. More rare would be EM: Iron, but it's at least possible.
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"He meant plant-controller..."

Yeah, buts its funnier the other way... or ways....

Nova, "Take that undead scum!" Nova flexes his quantum might and de-pants the charging vampire.

Vampire screams and trips as he turns to ash! (10DL embarrassment damage)

-------

Joe, "OK, we,ve trapped the werewolf in the pit. Now how do we kill it?"

Nova, "We drown it!" Nova concentrates mightily upon his node granted abilities as the werewolf begins to pant and drool uncontrollably.

Sorry, I just read the previous few posts and those images fought their way in as I read "pant-controller". It was an honest mistake, but classic! ::devil

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Nope, Animal Mastery explicitly doesn't work on anything sentient. And however borderline they might sometimes seem, werewolves are sentient.

And, yeah, cold iron causes unsoakable agg. Its especially nasty, in that it also causes soul death to the fae soul of a changeling. OTOH, while matter creation could easily make cold iron by the ton, odds are you won't find any of it conveniently around to use EA or Magnetics on.

Admittedly, if its a joint setting, the victim of unseelie fae cruelty might indeed erupt with "Bodymorph: Cold Iron". . .

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Let's try this again.

Proposal.

A) Creature Interaction:

1) Novas are loosely considered to be awakened non-human magical Creatures. They are never considered “sleepers” by mage standards.

2) As non-humans, Novas are immune to the Delirium.

3) Vampires can feed off of novas, but they must either feed from an open wound or be able to do lethal “ping” damage.

4) Nova blood is effectively very strong baseline blood, but exceptions can come up because of taint, body modification, or Bodymorph issues which the ST will have to deal with individually.

5) Novas can be blood bonded via the usual rules (but also see Health).

6) Adaptability doesn’t help deal with Vampire Blood since it doesn’t help with addiction.

7) Health adds two Generations per dot of Mega-Stamina to any Vampire Blood the nova is exposed to. As usual, blood above Generation 14 has no affect.

B) Detecting Novas:

1) Taintless novas are considered to be detectable in the same way that Mages are. Hunters will still get the impression that they are slightly less human than mages.

2) Tainted novas are detectable via Sense Worm (etc). The greater the taint, the more inhuman and vile a nova will appear to Hunter (or other) senses. Aggravated attacks always appear to be extremely vile and “Worm-ish” or “Anti-life-ish” to senses that can detect it.

3) As usual, novas normally stand out from the baseline "herd" via their Mega-App and/or "the nova physic", and this increases as their level of Quantum increases.

4) Novas actively using their powers will normally be detectable by the various mage senses, usually although not always, Forces.

5) All novas have an extra lobe or node in their brain that could be detected by a normal medical roll, assuming the doctor or mage has a way to detect this and knows what to look for.

6) Dormed novas appear to be baselines (or awakened non-mage sleepers) unless the detecting entity both has a relevant special sense and can overcome a difficulty equal to the novas dot’s in Dorm.

C) Power use:

1) Nova powers often do not appear “natural” to onlookers, however, Novas never invoke paradox with their quantum powers.

2) It is very unlikely enough sleepers will come to understand and believe in novas to such a degree that Paradox rules and the Gauntlet will be changed.

3) Hunter mental defenses work against Nova social enhancements.

D) Combat and damage types.

1) In WOD, Aggravated damage doesn’t regenerate by magical means and is soaked normally. Baselines heal it as lethal damage. Species often have specific weaknesses which both do Aggravated damage and also ignores soak. For example Silver for Werewolves, Cold Iron for Fey, and Sunlight for Vampires.

2) In Aberrant, Nova Aggravated damage regenerates at triple the cost and ignores soak. Baselines never heal this kind of damage.

3) Most WOD aggravated attacks, including fire, radiation, magical creature teeth and claws, do lethal damage to novas and this heals and soaks as usual. The various “instant healing” nova powers, such as regeneration, heal magically inflicted aggravated damage at triple the normal cost.

4) Nova created Aggravated damage, i.e. damage from powers such as Disintegration, is soaked as though it were a species specific weakness. Werewolves soak it to the degree they can soak silver damage, Vampires soak it to the degree they can soak direct sunlight, etc. Damage of this nature is healed by magical creatures as normal aggravated damage. Damage of this nature on baselines and mages never heals without magic or power use.

5) Certain nova powers can create damage that employs species specific weaknesses. The ST will have to use his own judgment, but is encouraged to discourage excessive use of weakness generating special effects. For example the various “Light” based powers usually don’t create “Sunlight”, defined as “light from the sun”. Bodymorph: Silver only gives a nova some of the properties of Silver and this generally isn’t close enough to count as Silver to Werewolves. On the other hand, Elemental Mastery and Matter Creation probably create “true” elements, and Immolate: Fire would probably still count as “Fire” even if “Telekinesis: Fire Hands” does not.

E) Nova Potential:

1) Novas can’t be Vamps. They die, but they don’t turn.

2) Novas can not be Werewolves, or Mummies, or Fey, or Hunters.

3) Novas can become Ghouls but gain no additional abilities beyond theme.

4) Whether Novas can become mages is up to the ST, but as their abilities are not magical, they can not be self taught.

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Pretty much agreed with everything. The only sticky one is the "will not alter the paradigm."

For all intents and purposes, prior to N-Day, Aberrant Earth had about as much public belief and knowledge that such things could be possible as the WoD. If the newly erupting novas act publically in the same manner they did in the Aeonverse, I see no reason whatsoever that they wouldn't change public belief in what is possible or not.

The exception is, if the preexisting supernaturals attempt to suppress and cover them up. The problem is, I'm not sure how effectively they could, especially since the different factions generally suck at cooperating at anything. Plus, given even a 30 dot nova is more powerful than most things in the WoD, coverup might not even be *possible*. Only the Technocracy really has the motives and the resources to try, and I don't see them succeeding, especially since the Traditions would have an equally strong motive to prevent the coverup.

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The only sticky one is the "will not alter the paradigm."

1) How many people are actually going to meet novas, and does that matter?

2) Assuming people do tend to believe in novas, what would the change in paradigm be? Everyone can do everything sounds a bit beyond belief, even in the Eonverse.

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1) About the same number as in the Aeonverse. . . but thanks to the miracles of modern media. . . :)

2) Thats pretty much what they could do in the Aeonverse. Yeah, you won't suddenly have paradox disappear, since novas have a scientific explanation, after all. However, the bounds of whats mundane, and whats coincidental, should expand considerably.

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True...anything that can be explained scientifically will open up sleepers to its potential.. If the media disseminates knowledge that humans have the potential to erupt....you will see them start to (since it is belief that affects the WOD and not divis or hammersmith)

,,,,
1) In WOD, Aggravated damage doesn’t regenerate by magical means and is soaked normally. Baselines heal it as lethal damage. Species often have specific weaknesses which both do Aggravated damage and also ignores soak. For example Silver for Werewolves, Cold Iron for Fey, and Sunlight for Vampires.
,,

wrong. aggravated damage in the WOD is always unsoakable with only 3 exceptions that I know of.

,,

1.) werewolves may soak agg damage period except that caused by silver.

,,

2.) vampires with special disciplines, most notably Fortitude.

,,

3.)mages wielding the prime sphere.

,,

baselines can never heal it etc. is all the same. A werewolf would do agg to a nova just as to a sleeper or anything else for that matter.

,,
Werewolves soak it to the degree they can soak silver damage
,,

without special gifts (usually from Luna) they cannot...

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However, the bounds of whats mundane, and whats coincidental, should expand considerably.

What does that mean? I suspect it doesn't mean that mages can now throw around powerbolts and fly...

wrong. aggravated damage in the WOD is always unsoakable with only 3 exceptions that I know of.

1.) werewolves may soak agg damage period except that caused by silver.

2.) vampires with special disciplines, most notably Fortitude.

3.)mages wielding the prime sphere.

,,

baselines can never heal it etc. is all the same. A werewolf would do agg to a nova just as to a sleeper or anything else for that matter.

I need to find my Mage book. The Werewolf armor table sure implied the opposite, but that was a very old, 2nd ed book.
without special gifts (usually from Luna) they cannot...
Exactly. ::ohmy

EDIT: Hey, I know where my Hunter book is. That's pretty new.

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Once people accept that novas exist, I see no reason why that *wouldn't* include flying and throwing powerbolts. Yeah, that totally blows away major genre conventions of the WoD, but hell, there's lots of ways that can happen. Try imaging a Disgaea/WoD crossover, for example. ::devil

And btw, I've got my Mage out. Direct quote from page 264.

"Mages occasionally suffer wounds so terrible that even magick cannot heal them. The wounds are called aggravated wounds, and a mage can only heal them through the painfully slow natural process, shown on the Normal Healing Time chart, or by using vulgar magick and spending a point of Quintessence per health level healed. Common sources of aggravated wounds include the claws of vampires and werewolves, weapon Talismans, acid and toxic waste, vulgar Life and Entropy effects, and attacks by angry spirits."

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I looked it up in Hunter and they don't have Agg damage.

Meaning they don't have any powers that do Agg and they don't regen in combat so even Werewolf attacks and the like are just lethal. There is mention that as lethal attacks basically Hunters are just hosed unless they have armor.

Once people accept that novas exist, I see no reason why that *wouldn't* include flying and throwing powerbolts. Yeah, that totally blows away major genre conventions of the WoD...

That's a HUGE step where most people never meet a nova, many or most 3rd world people get distorted rumors, the "weight of history" is directly opposed, and nova powers don't seem real even in person. Worse, even if you meet a nova you still don't know what's believeable from them.

IMHO it's like claiming that because Superman (the character) exists, and everyone knows this, a mage could mimic his powers and most people would reflexively think a movie is being filmed.

Compare that to (the spell) hand guns, where they results are very predictable and the common man can run into them.

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The problem is, again, most of the past precedents are identical in the Aeonverse, and yet even without ever meeting one, there is no significant portion of the population that disbelieves in novas circa 2008.

Yeah, it won't be an immediate paradigm shift, but in ten years? I don't see it being avoided.

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