Aberrant RPG - Novas in the WOD

[Alex Green]

This topic started on this thread: http://www.eononline.net/forums/index.php?...ic=2455&st=1185

...and then there are mages...playing a mage with a decent level of sphere knowledge lets you do just about *anything*. HIgh level mages are essentially doing plank scaling effects over a much larger area and can get to that level of power very quickly...they rewrite reality in accordance with their Wills.

Unless of course, someone who doesn't know about Magic is watching. This might even include a nova.

not sure which aberration you are referring to...

There's two of them. Black Thumb and it's bigger, meaner cousin, Taint Bleed.

the closest thing we have in the non-supernatural reality of aberrant would be the sub-quantum psion level. In other words, the prime pattern is what underlies and fuels ALL forces, matter, space, time, entropy, spirit, mind, and life (the other spheres of reality which make up known patterns)

That's one theory.

er...there isnt any quintessential environmental damage. A Mage using the sphere of Prime would do agg by directly ripping open your pattern...Quite simply put a mage using such effects would tear into a nova and do agg much as a werewolf or vampire would.

Sounds impressive.

Im just saying that it doesn't make sense (to me) that one minute they are soaking agg damage from a radiation fire and then a nova comes along with 1 dot of disintegrate and they have no defense...

Yep. That one dot of disintegrate is also pretty impressive.

And that's where part of the problem is. Being at the top of the heap in one world don't neccessarily mean you get to be at the top of the heap on another (and yes, I know this works both ways).

For example: John Carter of Mars (Edgar Rice Burals(sp)) is the top dog in Edgar's "Mars" books. Kills lots, and lots, and lots of people & monsters. That's fine as far as it goes, but I've often seen him translated into AD&D as a 30th level fighter. In John's case, the issue is every Earthling that ends up on Mars always get super-martian strength because our gravity is stronger. I.e. IMHO part of the reason why John is so impressive is because the scale of his foes is less.

For another example: Benadict of Amber can also be translated into AD&D as a 30th level fighter. Ben has combat trained for 1000's of years using a reality control power to let him see the outcomes of various decissions. His various family members can kill things AD&D would think of as gods and other high level monsters on a regular basis. All of Ben's various family members are terrified of him to the point where they refuse to even consider fighting him, even with high level artifacts. They won't even consider betting against him no matter what the odds are. And yes, every one of them is also pretty much immortal and also has lots of what we would call mega-atts.

John is impressive, but Ben dominates in a bigger pond. If the two of them ever fight and the outcome isn't determined by fan votes, Ben should easily kill John. He should easily kill 10 Johns.

For a more real world example, Walt Chamberlin totally dominated Basketball when he played... but whether he was the greatest player ever is hard to say because the "average" pro basket ball player has gotten so much better since the 70's. An argument can be made for Jordan.

For another example, the T-Rex is impressive, and rocked in it's time, but plunk one down in the middle of New York City and it only rampages until it runs into a cop, or a drug dealer, or anyone else with a gun, then then it dies outright. It's world and ours work on different scales for what "tough" and "mean attacks" are considered to be, that it's impressive in it's own environment simply won't help.

regarding mages...I dont think you understand or something cuz there isnt any parrallel I can see between Magick and black thumb or taint bleed.

Also regarding Sleepers watching...thats what "coincidental" effects are for.....Stealth Plank Scaling!!!

The potential parallel is: Raw Taint = Raw Quantum = Raw Quin. All of this hits normals roughly like hard radiation.If the ST *really* wanted to be nasty he could say that novas are Sleepers, and Mega-Perception doesn't change that. ::devil

[Alex Green]

No offense, since I know you dont really have any knowledge of WoD, but you couldn't be more mistaken. In Abby, Taint is a bad thing that leads to blight and is most concentrated in places like nuclear reactors. In the WoD these are foul places of corruption that spew Wyrm Taint and evil into the world (and such effects like balefire, or the putrescent gifts of fomori that allow them to project Wyrm toxins do agg damage).,,

Contrast this with Nodes/Cairns/Nexi that pour out raw quintessence are places of incredible life, chi and viatlity and lead to health and invigoration.

,, Also mistaken. In WoD terms paradox is caysed by the beliefs of sleepers, who by definition have not been exposed to any source of *wonder*. Because novas are known to break the laws of reality they would be considered "awakened" for the purposes of seeing a Mage cast a vulger effect, like throwing lightning from their palms (as opposed to merely standing by while a power line "coincidentally" falls on their enemies. It would be worth noting that if Novas did cross over into the WoD that they would suffer an extreme Paradox backlash from all the banal sleepers who would reject their command of reality. The only reason Werewolves and Vampires do not suffer paradox backlash is that they are written into reality on a ubiquitous scale. Werewolves all share their Avatar (Soul) with that of Gaia, and the Spirit World (which exists in spite of the sleepers refusal to believe in it). Vampires are similarly empowered and protected in that they all really share one source of vitae..in a sense they are all one living organism of The Blood of Caine.

Also mistaken. In WoD terms paradox is caysed by the beliefs of sleepers, who by definition have not been exposed to any source of *wonder*. Because novas are known to break the laws of reality they would be considered "awakened" for the purposes of seeing a Mage cast a vulger effect, like throwing lightning from their palms…

I used to think that too, but then WW came out with the ruling Hunters could still be sleepers (and usually were). Having power doesn’t mean you believe in magic. Nor does it stop you from believing “he can’t do that”.

Although to be clear, I’m not advocating this interpretation and it does seem pretty harsh to me. The real problem is this ruling can drastically change what "vulgar” means. X-Ray vision can mean that there are sleepers present even if the mage is safe in his own home. Telepathy can mean that even coincidental magic is now vulger. Etc.

In general I’d argue that Novas can’t be sleepers because they are used to the “unreality” of nova powers. However if the ST wanted to be evil on this issue I couldn’t gainsay him, and it might actually be a good thing for some campaigns.

…It would be worth noting that if Novas did cross over into the WoD that they would suffer an extreme Paradox backlash from all the banal sleepers who would reject their command of reality.

Probably not. If we are going to have a real cross over, then everyone should still have all their traditional strengths and weaknesses. That means that Novas aren’t Mages and Mages aren’t Novas. Nova powers only appear to break the laws. No matter how unreal nova powers appear (and they do appear to be very unreal), they aren’t actually breaking the natural laws despite what sleepers believe (just like Vamps and Weres).

On that subject, even if novas go public, this probably doesn’t help Mages with Paradox. Claiming “I’m a nova” can’t help mages avoid paradox because Nova powers do appear “surreal” or “unreal” or the like. Sleepers disbelieve Mages, Novas, Werewolves, and Vampires equally, but only Mages suffer because of it.

On the other hand there are a lot more Mages, Werewolves, & Vampires than there are Novas… which neatly turns the normal WOD rules on their head. Instead of being outnumbered by the hoards of sleepers but being more powerful individually, they out-number novas but are out-powered.

[Finbar]

I don't think that Reality would slap down novas like it does mages. Not only are novas run differently (ie, their abilities aren't based on the same paradigm), their abilities fit the WOD theme rather well (the more powerful you are, the bigger problems that will track down; the novas need to deal with Taint and more powerful competition), if you need to think of it that way.

However, the novas are an entirely different kind of critter, and I don't think that the limitation that applies to mages applies to any other group, and so wouldn't apply to novas. However, this would put the novas at a disadvantage as well; some of the WOD issues would be very effective against novas (such as the number of aggravated attacks). Also, a lot of people tend to forget that novas are very focused individuals; WOD characters are more JOAT's. Whereas a nova would have a few mega-atts and a theme, the WOD characters has a lot of abilities beyond their theme. This also acts in WOD character's favor, as the nova needs to act in a reasonably predictable way, whereas the WOD character has a number of options.

And don't get me going on the advantage a ritual-based character would have on the nova.

Another issue to consider is recharge time. Yeah, the nova will be extremely powerful, but only for as long as his quantum pool holds out. Even the fae recharge quicker, and most should be able to hold out until the nova is done. A vampire with a few herd in the area will be ready to go within hours, and a werewolf should be ready in minutes.

However, as long as the nova held back a few points, and relied on Mega-atts (especially Str, Sta and Dex) as well as defenseive powers, and even the most powerful mage or methuselah would fall quickly. A nova that relied on guerilla attacks (such as Totentaz) would rule the WOD in a few months...

My two cents...

FR

[Alex Green]

Hunters are imbued and not awakend. The source that gives them their power doesn't want them to know the truth as it uses them for their own ends. This is why they see these other beings as horrific and monsters, whereas an awakened would realize there is much more going on.,, If there were sleepers with x-ray vision then mages would be able to get away with alot more. Essesntially mages only suffer paradox from non-belief so whatever you can do they can do better. As a side not to the underlined part above, a mage in their Sanctum is immune to paradox as would be any mage on the other side of the gauntlet.,, agreed Actually if sleepers beleived in Novas then that would be a great excuse to make things coincidental. In fact, this is exactly what the Technocracy has done. They can pull out some crazy effect or weapon or something and get away with it because "its technology",, I still think that in the hands of someone who knows how to play them properly and given a clever mind for using coincidence (very much like dramatic editing with no point expenditure) Mages are the most powerful beings white wolf has come up with. In particular I have an Arcane Prime Mage who can channel so much quintessesce that if he wants to he can be vulgar at will with no paradox, soak and inflict agg damage and be so stealthy that anyone under M-Per 2 doesnt even get to roll and those higher are down to only 1-4 (normal) dice.

[Alex Green]

Finbar: …some of the WOD issues would be very effective against novas (such as the number of aggravated attacks).

I have my doubts. I suspect in practice, one of two things would happen.

1) The ST rules that everyone and his kid brother shouldn’t be able to launch nova level aggravated attacks.

Or

2) Simply to function in this setting, most novas would need to buy Hardbody or one of the other Agg defenses. If Agg attacks among the super-folk are as common as handguns among sleepers, then expect an adaptation.

SkyLion … As a side not to the underlined part above, a mage in their Sanctum is immune to paradox…

Somehow I suspect that Sanctum’s aren’t supposed to have glass walls open to sleepers.

SkyLion: Actually if sleepers believed in Novas then that would be a great excuse to make things coincidental. In fact, this is exactly what the Technocracy has done. They can pull out some crazy effect or weapon or something and get away with it because "its technology"

The problem is sleepers *don’t* believe in novas, or their powers. It’s stated multiple times and places nova powers range from unbelievable to disturbing to surreal to baselines. Actually in the Mega-Wits section it’s stated that with prolonged exposure baselines can come to view the mega-physicals as only surreal.

If a mage sees a car full of kids going out of control and about to go over a cliff… he’s still limited to coincidence because even if vulgar magic would let him impersonate a telekinetic nova (or a vampire, or a werewolf) doing so doesn’t change the disbelieve of the sleepers and unlike the other groups, he needs to worry about that. Being able to argue after the fact, a nova could have done this, isn’t going to prevent the disbelief during the event.

SkyLion: …I have an Arcane Prime Mage…

How much experience does he have?

[Finbar]

Two things that may tip the balance in favor of the WOD characters:

1) The WOD characters are used to dealing with support staff, whereas the novas have a paranoia of support or are so beyond that they are basically considered useless. Even the WOD tends to use them as cannon fodder, they still believe in their basic competence. Obviously I'm excluding the vampire's herd, but everyone else is highly useful in general situations.

2) Don't discount the versatility of WOD characters too quickly. A mage with even a few spheres has a large number of potential effects that even a suite power can't begin to duplicate. On the other hand, some WOD groups have base abilities that make them equal to the lower strata of novas (vamps and weres in particular, and the fae's ability to enchant and then affect that person with chimera, for example). Also, it's easier for the WOD characters to detect the novas than the novas to detect them (sense wyrm and Forces 1 should do nicely when it comes to detecting a nova's quantum signature, for example).

At the same time, the novas do have a lot of power to throw around, something that the WOD definitely have a problem catching up on....

FR

[Alex Green]

How do the experience tables compare? I.e. who gets stronger, faster?

[BlueNinja]

How come it's always about Novas v WoD? How come nobody ever asks how Psions would work in WoD - whether an EK's laser inflicts aggravated against vamps, or if a VK can cure lycanthropy? ::unsure

[Finbar]

How do the experience tables compare? I.e. who gets stronger, faster?

With the exception of their abilities and special stats, they advance at the same rate (at least, as of 2nd ed; I'm not sure about 3rd). Past that, Werewolves are limited in power by how fast they gain rank, vampires by generation and access to some disciplines, and mages are limited by having a number of special stats (I'm discounting fae, hunters and Risen on purpose, as these groups don't really get much more powerful as they get experience). Abbies are going to go a bit faster because they only need to worry about Quantum and Quantum Pool, and their powers are straight-forward (almost all of the WOD abilities are basically suites).

So, yeah, Abbies will get stronger faster. Also, throw in Hardbody, Mega-Sta 3, even just two or three points of armor, and Invulnerable: Mental Attacks (again, just a dot or two), and the abbie is going to be invulnerable to most straight attacks, and a lot of indirect ones.

BlueNinja: A psion against most WOD characters is going to kick butt. The psion has the same level of versatility and support, and they bring in tech as well, especially Legionaires (VARGs) and Norca, and a tek is going to show even the most advanced technomancer a thing or two.

Oh, and don't even mention Adventure! characters; they may not have the versatility of a WOD character, but they have the support and tech, and the, um, luck factor is definitely scary, especially when the target is vulnerable to the silliest stuff ("You have a problem with sticks? Such as from that stick cart that just tipped over in the street?"). At keast they stand a chance against abbies...

FR

[SkyLion]

If Novas became an accepted part of the paradig,, mages could do vulgar effects....as they can do now if they choose to mimic the technocratic paradigm.

,,

Alex, the abilities I listed for my Mage were the ones he had straight out of the box.

,,

Also, regarding sanctums...they are like nodes in that the gauntlet in between the spirit world is either super thin or non existant so it doesnt matter if a sleep see it...just like it wouldnt matter if you brought a sleeper into the spirit world bodily...

,,

Werewolves and Vampires would work Novas...

,,

Werewolves have bonuses that put them in the mega att range...can soak even agg damage, dish it out routinely, all have many multiple actions per round....tremendous gifts...millenia of experience in pack tactics and they attack in packs...from out of nowhere as they cross over from the spirit world and have mighty spirit allies...totems, incarna and even celestines...litterally the power of living spirit beings that *are* the Sun and The Moon and the Earth.

,,

Vampires (depending on generation) can juice themselves into the mega att range. They can be incredibly seductive...and get this...as soon as they bite anyone, even a nova...that person can no longer resist as they succumb to the incredible ecstacy of The Kiss. AND get this even more...vampires take on characteristics of the blood they drink...drinking werewolf blood grants them tremendous power...imagine what they would draw with quantum charged vitae....

,,

--ADDENDUM--

,,,,

Oh sure, Novas have there advantages too, though I agree with Finbar...they are used to being top dogs in a world of baselines. In the WoD there would be no Aeon Society to ease the transition and the baselines would panic on a wide scale and it might even kick off Gehenna and Ragnarok.

,,

The other thing to consider is that Novas are new and Vampires have been around since the dawn of time. Any Elder or Methuselah worthy of the name did not get there by charging into battle with super powered foes. They will hide as they have done and strike with lethal awareness. In particular the Tremere would use their Auspex to spy from afar while using mystic rituals to protect them from the same. Capture a few Novas and perorm blood experiments on them. And Tremere himself mught have some mighty rituals that could tip things incredibly.

,,

In short, Novas are a fractious, independant group and most do not work well together, when they do its in small teams. The WoD has some immensly organized *&^^% going on!!!

,,,,

And as soon as the technocracy gets involved...watch out!

,,

Oh yeah, and The Fae would be dancing in the streets as the chaos of Novas ends centuries of Banality and returns Glamour to the world...Helloooo Arcadia!!!!!

[BlueNinja]

imagine what they would draw with quantum charged vitae....

Taint? I'm thinking of what happens to s luckless Baseline who gets Nova Proxy'd, Aberration Transfer'd, or even Quantum Intensification'd. Vampires (Mages, WWs, etc) should be even more susceptible to it, because they don't even have a chance of erupting.

[Alex Green]

If Novas became an accepted part of the paradig,, mages could do vulgar effects....as they can do now if they choose to mimic the technocratic paradigm.

1) The Gauntlet and Paradox have been created over thousands of years by many Billions of sleepers.

2) Novas are extremely rare, presumably they’d even be rarer in a cross over event.

3) The vast bulk of mankind is never going to meet a nova in person. A significant fraction of mankind is never even going to hear about novas.

4) Thousands, or perhaps even hundreds of thousands of people will get to know novas well enough for the novas to be personally accepted (note that hundreds of thousands of people over a period of months or years is a much smaller number of man-years of belief than Billions of people over a period of thousands of years).

5) Novas can do literally anything, so even if these people understand the idea of novas, they *still* won’t have enough information to change their reflexive believes about what the “typical” nova can do.

6) Nova powers, even or especially in person, generally look “unnatural” and/or “disturbing” and/or “surreal”.

IMHO all of that combined is a thin straw with which to make the jump that because novas are immune to paradox, mages will become immune to it as long as they are mimicking nova powers (which basically include anything). Similarly, if Werewolves go public (god help them), I have doubts Mages will be able to use any Werewolf effect simply because the wolves are immune to paradox.

I’ve seen lots of stage magic on TV. But wouldn’t a real mage trying to do that with vulgar magic still invoke paradox? Has the existence of stage magic made life significantly easier on real mages? Copperfield has walked through walls and made buildings disappear. Can normal mages do that without Paradox?

Alex, the abilities I listed for my Mage were the ones he had straight out of the box.

Interesting. If you can openly throw around vulgar magic, then how big of a powerbolt can you toss and with how many dice?

Vampires (depending on generation) can juice themselves into the mega att range. They can be incredibly seductive...and get this...as soon as they bite anyone, even a nova...that person can no longer resist as they succumb to the incredible ecstacy of The Kiss. AND get this even more...vampires take on characteristics of the blood they drink...drinking werewolf blood grants them tremendous power...imagine what they would draw with quantum charged vitae....

Here we get into the need for cross over rules.

RE: Vampire Bites

1) Baselines can’t soak lethal damage. Novas can. If the soak is high enough, no damage => no bite.

2) Novas are generally immune to poisons and the like, this sounds close. A resistance roll sounds appropriate. For that matter, a certain level of Mega-Stamina would probably grant immunity.

3) To non-novas, “Quantum Charged” means “does Aggravated damage” and/or “similar to hard radiation”. As vampires lack a node to control any quantum they pick up, well… it sounds painful. What happens when Vampires drink Mages? Do they get their powers?

And I’d guess that you can either be a vampire or a nova, but not both.

[SkyLion]

&nbsp;1) The Gauntlet and Paradox have been created over <u>thousands</u> of years by <u>many Billions</u> of sleepers.

<br>

<br>

Not quite.&nbsp; The current state of afairs is actually a pretty

recent development.&nbsp; Its true that Billions of sleepers contribute

to paradox though if they start hearing about Novas over mass media

things can change very quickly...The technocracy has advanced things so

far up its timetable that sleepers can accept new changes quickly given

they trust the authority speaking it to them.&nbsp; Of course this

would depend on the how the New World Order Convention decides to spin

the arrival of Novas...<br>

2) Novas are extremely rare, presumably they'd even be rarer in a cross over event.<br>3)

The vast bulk of mankind is never going to meet a nova in person. A

significant fraction of mankind is never even going to hear about novas.<br>4)

Thousands, or perhaps even hundreds of thousands of people will get to

know novas well enough for the novas to be personally accepted (note

that hundreds of thousands of people over a period of months or years

is a much smaller number of man-years of belief than Billions of people

over a period of thousands of years).<br>5) Novas can do literally

anything, so even if these people understand the idea of novas, they

*still* won't have enough information to change their reflexive

believes about what the "typical" nova can do.<br>6) Nova powers, even or especially in person, generally look "unnatural" and/or "disturbing" and/or "surreal".

<br>

<br>

see above response.&nbsp; If the mass media disseminates that these

people are flying around a mage could mimic one.&nbsp; Likewise a mage

can pull a gun out of an empty sack simply becasue a sleeper didnt know

it was empty...<br>

<br>

IMHO all of that combined is a thin straw with which to make

the jump that because novas are immune to paradox, mages will become

immune to it as long as they are mimicking nova powers (which basically

include anything). Similarly, if Werewolves go public (god help them),

I have doubts Mages will be able to use any Werewolf effect simply

because the wolves are immune to paradox.

<br>

<br>

Well mages cant duplicate lupine effects since Lupines enforce The

Delerium on Sleepers, so sleepers dont believe in werewolves.&nbsp; If

sleepers believe in Novas this opens up alot in terms of "what is

possible"<br>

<br>I've seen lots of stage magic on TV. But wouldn't a real

mage trying to do that with vulgar magic still invoke paradox? Has the

existence of stage magic made life significantly easier on real mages?

Copperfield has walked through walls and made buildings disappear. Can

normal mages do that without Paradox?

<br>

<br>

Absolutly they can.&nbsp; There is actually a skill involved in doing

this, to disguise true magic as stage or even street magic.<br>

<br>

Interesting. If you can openly throw around vulgar magic,

then how big of a powerbolt can you toss and with how many dice?

<br>

<br>

Well so far I never tried to vulgar effects outside of Nodes, and never

tried throwing a powerbolt.&nbsp; When I unpack my boxes of books I can

figure out how much damage he could pump.&nbsp; Also note that the way

I avoid paradox is by bribing it with quintessesnce, similar to what we

do to bribe the ban in baalt.<br>

<br><br><br>

RE: Vampire Bites<br>1) Baselines can't soak lethal damage. Novas can. If the soak is high enough, no damage =&gt; no bite.<br>2)

Novas are generally immune to poisons and the like, this sounds close.

A resistance roll sounds appropriate. For that matter, a certain level

of Mega-Stamina would probably grant immunity.<br>3) To non-novas, <i>"Quantum Charged"</i>

means "does Aggravated damage" and/or "similar to hard radiation". As

vampires lack a node to control any quantum they pick up, well… it

sounds painful. What happens when Vampires drink Mages? Do they get

their powers?

<br>

<br>

1. Vampire bites (not claws without special abilities usually) do agg damage.<br>

2.&nbsp; Its not a poison effect and there is no save unless you are a

vampire of a higher generation or have the iron will merit.&nbsp; It is

a supernatural effect of Caines Curse.<br>

3. They wouldnt pick up the quantum but they would gain the bonuses of

the novas enhanced metabolism and resistance similar to how they get

juiced by werewolf blood.&nbsp; They dont gain powers of their victim

but potent blood leads to potent vitae and also like werewolves, novas

would probably have more blood points (not from more volume in most

cases but from its enhanced constitution.)<br>

<br>

Of course this might also leads to a frenzying vampire which is no fun for anybody!!!<br>

<br>And I'd guess that you can either be a vampire or a nova, but not both.

<br>

<br>

yes, they would be mutually exclusive.&nbsp; Vampires are blood.&nbsp;

Mystic Blood animating corpses.&nbsp; NOvas are alive and function

through living brain tissue.<br>

<br>

<br>

PS.&nbsp; It seems I have supplanted Nullifier in the role of Alex's preferred debating partner! <img style="vertical-align: middle;" emoid="::biggrin" src="http://www.eononline.net/forums/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif" border="0"><br>

<br>

[SnakeEyes]

I have a point to make, being an avid WoD player. However this thread got real confusing real fast, so forgive me if I make any stupid comments-

Assuming we are talking old WoD here. I haven't familiarised myself with new WoD mage, but I'm told the paradox thing hasn't changed much.

Paradox isn't necessarily created by sleepers. And the gauntlet- well, nobody's really sure where the gauntlet came from although there's a theory that states that the spirit world and real world were once merged, but separated in some cataclysmic event, and the gauntlet was formed when they split.

Paradox, however, can be gained even when no sleepers are aware of magic occuring. Although coincidental effects can get away with it, if you produce a vulgar effect in the middle of a warehouse in the middle of an abandoned district, you should, in theory, still gain paradox albeit not as much.

The best explaination I've heard is magic is like lying to God (or gods, or whatever supreme entity the person in question believes in). If you can convince God you can do such magic, you'll get away without paradox. However, God doesn't like being lied to, hence paradox. And he can usually tell. Vulgar magic is like telling someone you jump to the moon every friday (in the real world, that is). Coincidental magic is like telling someone you know Jennifer Lopez's uncle. Obviously, the scourge of God theory went out in the middle ages (Sorcerer's Crusade).

Paradox is reality's way of saying 'You shouldn't be able to do that'. Thus, in theory, just like HIT Marks (the cyborgs made by the Technocracy), Novas should gain paradox also, sometimes just simply for existing (if the power has a physical appearance).

However, this doesn't explain why hunters can make weapons from thin air, the dead walk, and men turn to wolves (and vice-versa) etc. without any backlash. Or how marauders can get away with resurrecting Abraham Lincoln and having a T-Rex as a mount. Those were left as mysteries.

Again, apologies if I've said anything obvious or already mentioned, I was struggling to follow the thread.

Of course, this also implies you're following Mage rules.

Cheers,

SnakeEyes

[Alex Green]

SkyLion: Not quite. The current state of affairs is actually a pretty recent development. Its true that Billions of sleepers contribute to paradox though if they start hearing about Novas over mass media things can change very quickly...The technocracy has advanced things so far up its timetable that sleepers can accept new changes quickly given they trust the authority speaking it to them. Of course this would depend on the how the New World Order Convention decides to spin the arrival of Novas...

Convincing people there is a new type of computer chip is IMHO much harder than convincing people that there are living, physics-breaking, gods around. Part of the issue is if I want to show Joe Baseline a computer, I can. If I want to show him a nova, generally speaking, I can’t. I have to show him things out of a bad movie. Good solid hunks of the planetary population don’t have access to CNN and the like. They may have heard about computers and maybe even seen one, but they haven’t used one. I’m not sure that seeing pictures of Superman makes seeing people fly more believable.

And there is another issue here. I’m a little confused by the claim. When you talk about “how the NWOC decides to spin Novas”… it almost sounds to me like you are saying eventually, given enough time and enough effort, it is possible, that at some distant point in the future, people will accept novas to the point where mages can mimic them. Assuming that’s the claim, how much time should take, what percentage of believers, how many novas, etc? Let’s say for a moment that Superman(ish) shows up, is generally accepted, and he’s the only one. Can any mage strap on a Blue and Red costume and fly around without Paradox? Mind you, this is still with people who personally see what he’s doing *still* thinking that it looks pretty darn unreal.

SkyLion: If the mass media disseminates that these people are flying around a mage could mimic one. Likewise a mage can pull a gun out of an empty sack simply because a sleeper didn’t know it was empty...

This is NOT a good example. *Anyone* can pull out a gun, there are roughly as many guns as there are people.

If New York has 10 million people then it might have 5 who can fly. If Novas are literally from another dimension, then the entire planet might have only 5 people who can fly.

I know David Copperfield can walk through walls. If I see someone walking through a wall, my first reaction isn’t, That must be David Copperfield, my first reaction would be more “That’s impossible”.

Similarly, I know people make movies about Superman on occasion. I’ve seen them. If I see someone fly around with a big “S”, AFTER the initial expression of disbelief I’ll think about it and maybe decide someone is shooting a movie. But as I understand it, that initial expression of disbelief is going to invoke paradox if it can be invoked.

SkyLion: Well mages can’t duplicate lupine effects since Lupines enforce The Delirium on Sleepers, so sleepers don’t believe in werewolves. If sleepers believe in Novas this opens up a lot in terms of "what is possible"

You didn’t address the issue. If the general public learns of Werewolves, will Mages be able to duplicate anything they can do without vulgar magic?

SkyLion: Absolutely they can. There is actually a skill involved in doing this, to disguise true magic as stage or even street magic.

Why do I have the feeling that this skill goes more for creating white doves and not openly walking through walls?

,,

SkyLion: 1. Vampire bites (not claws without special abilities usually) do agg damage.

Considering Vampires can also make this damage disappear by licking it, IMHO this is another example of Aggravated in WOD and Aggravated in Abby being on different scales. However we still have the implication that a nova with Agg defenses couldn’t be bitten.

SkyLion: 2. It’s not a poison effect and there is no save unless you are a vampire of a higher generation or have the iron will merit. It is a supernatural effect of Cain’s Curse.

Generally speaking here, its cause doesn’t really matter. Supernatural. Quantum. Nuclear. Whatever. With very different underlying theories on what makes things work, we have to deal with the effects.

OK, there are already examples of people getting saves, but that part appears to be more of a mental effect than a physical one. This then puts it in the realm of Psi-Shield (or perhaps Sensory Shield).

SkyLion: 3. They wouldn’t pick up the quantum but they would gain the bonuses of the novas enhanced metabolism and resistance similar to how they get juiced by werewolf blood. ...

Interesting. This implies that no matter what the power of the nova, the vampire still gets (only) the underlying enhanced metabolism. This is actually workable since if a nova bleeds it doesn’t seem to reduce his quantum pool.

[Finbar]

Alex: You're confuzzling mechanics....

1) A nova wouldn't get slapped down by Paradox as his abilities come from Reality itself, not manipulating it as a mage does. So that's not even a consideration here.

2) I agree that a mage wouldn't be able to "copy" a nova, in general; even with super-heroes running around, the general public doesn't really know enough for it to be part of reality. At the same time, it would depend on the witnesses; if the mage did so in an area where only super-hero fans could see, then he could (mages can make vulgar effects seem coincidental in the right situations, such as non-silver claws at a garou moot). Also, he can use a skill to emulate stage magic, thus making his abilities to seem non-magical and thus coincidental.

3) The Bite: There's two types of vampire bite. Type I does agg and was meant for combat; a vampire using his bite for damage also can't suck blood, and it can't be healed by a lick. On the other hand, the Type II is meant for feeding, can be healed by a lick, and causes an euphoric reaction (to most people). Just pointing out the different bites; I'm basically with you as far as the necessity to puncture the skin...but I don't think that Psychic Shield would help (it's a supernatural thing, and thus has its own rules).

However, if the vampire could penetrate the skin, then I'm not sure that the vampire would gain any abilities, as the nova's abilities aren't metaphysical in nature. The advantages have been over-stated: Garou blood makes them a little stronger, but more likely to frenzy. Fae blood is totally unpredictable, and mummy and ghost blood is ineffective even as food. Mage blood is...just human, for all intents and purposes. Gypsy blood is the only blood that can give a vamp powers, and even then only if the vampire had those abilities in life.

I just don't see the vampire gaining any abilities...

FR

[Alex Green]

SnakeEyes: Paradox, however, can be gained even when no sleepers are aware of magic occuring. Although coincidental effects can get away with it, if you produce a vulgar effect in the middle of a warehouse in the middle of an abandoned district, you should, in theory, still gain paradox albeit not as much.

Interesting. I didn’t know that.

Finbar,

I found a great deal that you had to say very interesting, informative, and well thought out. But to cut the length of this post down I won’t play parrot.

Finbar: On the other hand, the Type II is meant for feeding, can be healed by a lick, and causes an euphoric reaction (to most people). Just pointing out the different bites; I'm basically with you as far as the necessity to puncture the skin...

Now wait a moment. Does this mean a “feeding” bite is more of a lethal defenses thing and not an aggravated thing?

Finbar: but I don't think that Psychic Shield would help (it's a supernatural thing, and thus has its own rules).

Yes and no. If Abby has a defense against “euphoria” then it’s hard to say it couldn’t apply. For example if someone had an aberration that prevented them from feeling pleasure. The issue is more of, what, if anything, is relevant? And it’s possible nothing is relevant.

But what gets me is we’ve already admitted baselines can (rarely) resist this attack, i.e. through the Ironwill merit. Once we’ve conceded that it’s possible (although rare and difficult) for baselines to resist, then I get the feeling that there should be a method for novas to do so.

Considering how flexible Abby power rules are… what would be appropriate for a “euphoria” attack? INV:Euphoria? INV:BC:Willpower-resisted-effects? Personally I would like to expand Sensory Shield to cover all sensory attacks and not just tear gas and strobe. Disorient, Askew, that sort of thing.

Note even if we do stretch Sensory Shield to cover this sort of thing, it’s really not much help since SS is an extremely rare power (I think there’s only two or three characters in all of the books who have it, and one is Mal).

[Finbar]

1) Psychic Shield doesn't apply to emotion-based controls (direct mind-control only), and Sensory Shield applies only against sensory attacks (the person is euphoric, but their senses aren't affected, just their reactions). Ergo, neither power applies. And Iron Will is also an Abbie Merit (at 6 freebie points). So, that's all it would take. I mean, if you really want Inv: Emotion Attacks, then go for it, but why not just buy Iron Will? Of course, you could rule that it's a Mega-Wits enhancement, but that's up to you.

2) And, yeah, a "Type II" bite is just a lethal thing; it does inflict one HL of lethal damage, but it can be healed by a lick, making it one of the few ways a vampire can heal someone else....

FR

[Alex Green]

RE: Type II bite

7 lethal soak then assuming it isn't done with permission... although you could argue with a point of agg damage that would open a hole.

RE: Euphoria

Assuming we are talking about euphoria the emotion and not euphoria being induced by overwelming pleasure, you're right. Here we touch upon the need for a level one power "Emotion Shield" to reduce all the various emotion based attacks, but that's a known issue. Of course this also means that "emotionless" novas are immune to euphoria which seems a hair odd, but that's another really rare aberration so it may be a minor point.

Finbar: I mean, if you really want Inv: Emotion Attacks, then go for it, but why not just buy Iron Will?

Because there's no cannon way of buying an iron will with experience. If you are (for example) a kick but telepath then at some point it'd be nice to have the level of mental self control that you can work up to it.

RE: Blood

And now we have the issue of what happens if a nova drinks a vampire's blood. Straight Resistance roll before we talk about gouls and bloodbonds?

[Finbar]

Nobody else gets to roll, so why should a nova? If a nova starts drinking blood, he runs the same risk of becoming a ghoul as anyone else: Three drinks and your a ghoul, three drinks from a particular vampire, and your bloodbound. The obvious mitigating factor is that the nova had to go out of his way in order drink the blood three times, and so has basically asked for it.

FR

[Alex Green]

Nobody else gets to roll, so why should a nova?

The short answer is AFAICT none of the other classes can try to go surfing on the surface of the sun. Adaptability and/or Health seem like they should do something.

More generally I'm wondering if the standard nova immunity to non-nova-specific drugs/poisons is applicable. Can the Fae become ghouls? Werewolves? Mages can I think but mages are basically human. Mummies? Dogs & Cats?

[Finbar]

The short answer is AFAICT none of the other classes can try to go surfing on the surface of the sun. Adaptability and/or Health seem like they should do something.

If it were a purely physical issue, you would be right. However, there is a suernatural component, and that takes precedence here. Thus, the standard three times you drink, you become a ghoul.

More generally I'm wondering if the standard nova immunity to non-nova-specific drugs/poisons is applicable. Can the Fae become ghouls? Werewolves? Mages can I think but mages are basically human. Mummies? Dogs & Cats?

Werewolves and mages, definitely. There are stats for dogs and cats as ghouls. so yeah again. Mummies I'm not sure about (vampires can't feed on them, but I don't know about them becoming ghouls), and fae I believe take damage from imbibing vampire blood (Banality issues), even though I'm not sure.

If it helps...

FR

[Jackson Creed]

Well the WOD hardly has the room for the critters that are already in it, without adding into the mix Novas! However, the DC universe may hold the key here. To take Superman, who is arguably the most Nova-like character in DC, his power level is pretty much in the stratusphere: he's virtually invulnerable, super fast, super strong and all the rest of it. He does have two weaknesses, the first is by far the most famous: exposure to kryptonite. The second is far less used: he is vulnerable to magic.

He can walk on the surface of the sun for a short while without getting too badly singed, but a small, magically generated, fireball could give him serious burns. If Superman were in the WOD, he would be totally vulnerable to being blood-bonded by vitae because it's properties are entirely mystical. Likewise he would be vulnerable to the direct effects of Gifts, Disciplines and Spheres. While the claws, teeth etc. of the various WOD denizens do agg damage due to their mystical nature, I'd allow Superman to soak it with Hardbody since they are only indirectly magical (or indeed, magikal).

Basically, if Novas were in the WOD, they have vast quantum power at their disposal, but they are entering a world which has another fundamental force that they have no connection to: magic. As a result they would probably have all the main problems that Superman would have. They may be quantum gods, but they are in a world where there are an awful lot of magical god-like beings as well.

Make of this what you will.

JC

::indifferent

[Alex Green]

…take Superman, who is arguably the most Nova-like character in DC, his power level is pretty much in the stratusphere: he's virtually invulnerable, super fast, super strong and all the rest of it. He does have two weaknesses, the first is by far the most famous: exposure to kryptonite. The second is far less used: he is vulnerable to magic.

He can walk on the surface of the sun for a short while without getting too badly singed, but a small, magically generated, fireball could give him serious burns. If Superman were in the WOD, he would be totally vulnerable to being blood-bonded by vitae because it's properties are entirely mystical. Likewise he would be vulnerable to the direct effects of Gifts, Disciplines and Spheres.

Your logic is as follows:

1) Superman is a nova (good)

2) Superman is vulnerable to kryptonite and magic. (good)

3) All novas are therefore vulnerable to magic. (???)

Unless you are going to claim that all novas are also thus vulnerable to kryptonite, that doesn’t work. It also doesn’t work because other novas, like Wonder Woman, or even Superboy (the half human clone), do not share his vulnerability to magic. Other problems with it are that novas tend to be extremely resistant to everything… meaning that if we have an unknown phenomenon that we don’t understand, while it’s possible that it really hits novas below the belt, that’s not the way to bet.

Basically, if Novas were in the WOD, they have vast quantum power at their disposal, but they are entering a world which has another fundamental force that they have no connection to: magic. As a result they would probably have all the main problems that Superman would have. They may be quantum gods, but they are in a world where there are an awful lot of magical god-like beings as well.

The problem is we don’t know what “magic” or “quantum” are or how they interact. For example one of the easier ways to deal with this type of cross over is to simply say that by WOD standards, Novas are magical creatures (which certainly explains some things about why science has issues with their powers).

If it were a purely physical issue, you would be right. However, there is a supernatural component, and that takes precedence here.

Actually, no, it doesn’t take precedence since none of us have any clue what that means. You can claim anything “Supernatural” trumps anything “Quantum”, but it’s just as easy to say the opposite. We also have no evidence one way or the other that by WOD standards Novas aren’t metaphysical creatures. Normally that wouldn't be a big deal, but in theory novas can create universes, including the WOD one. One way to run a cross over is to simply have a Q10 nova create the WOD and send some lesser novas in to do things.

If Vampire blood has no physical component at all then it should work on things that don’t have physical bodies (doubtful) and things that don’t have blood (also doubtful). Assuming for the moment that there is a physical component, then the issue simply becomes where to draw the line, and for the most part we don’t care what the underlying reasoning is for the origin of the ability.

Werewolves and mages, definitely. There are stats for dogs and cats as ghouls. so yeah again. Mummies I'm not sure about (vampires can't feed on them, but I don't know about them becoming ghouls), and fae I believe take damage from imbibing vampire blood (Banality issues), even though I'm not sure.

OK, Werewolves & Cats & Dogs is fairly convincing as evidence goes. The average nova can become a ghoul.

We then need to figure out if it’s a universal thing since Novas are so diverse. On the really weird side, not all novas even have blood. Could Vampire Blood enslave an Earth Elemental? A Fire Elemental? A robot? With novas those are possible characters, they are even common. This also touches upon the question of whether or not Bodymorph also often grants Adaptability.

Health reduces the potency of any drug or poison, including the really exotic ones fuelled by special powers including quantum. If we aren’t going to say that Magic automatically trumps Quantum, then I think we have to say it does *something*. Is Vampire Blood as toxic as Soma? Mox? Eclipsol?

Adaptability works differently but also works to counter any drug or poison, again also including the really exotic ones that are power driven.

[AnonCastillo]

We then need to figure out if it’s a universal thing since Novas are so diverse. On the really weird side, not all novas even have blood. Could Vampire Blood enslave an Earth Elemental? A Fire Elemental? A robot? With novas those are possible characters, they are even common. This also touches upon the question of whether or not Bodymorph also often grants Adaptability.

No, bodymorph wouldn't grant adaptability. Take the Thing, who basically has a permanent bodymorph: stone. Doesn't stop him from needing to eat, doesn't allow him to go into space. A fire elemental type would definitely still need oxygen and fuel. A robotic bodymorph may have a slightly better case, but even then you've still got a living person inside the robotic shell, so it would have no more adaptability than a cyborg. The only way bodymorph should give you adaptability is if you're allowed to buy enhancements with the points (I don't remember if you can) and you purchase it as part of the power.

[BlueNinja]

No, bodymorph wouldn't grant adaptability. Take the Thing, who basically has a permanent bodymorph: stone. Doesn't stop him from needing to eat, doesn't allow him to go into space. A fire elemental type would definitely still need oxygen and fuel. A robotic bodymorph may have a slightly better case, but even then you've still got a living person inside the robotic shell, so it would have no more adaptability than a cyborg. The only way bodymorph should give you adaptability is if you're allowed to buy enhancements with the points (I don't remember if you can) and you purchase it as part of the power.

The Bodymorph itself wouldn't, but if the person already has Adaptability, along with a permanent Bodymorph, I think that's what Alex is talking about.

Personally, I want to see a vamp take a bite out of a nova with the Body Modification Acidic Blood. ::laugh

[Alex Green]

The only way bodymorph should give you adaptability is if you're allowed to buy enhancements with the points (I don't remember if you can) and you purchase it as part of the power.

That is one side of that issue. The other side is the argument that “steel doesn’t need to breath”… and you can buy enhancements as part of a bodymorph.

A robotic bodymorph may have a slightly better case, but even then you've still got a living person inside the robotic shell, so it would have no more adaptability than a cyborg.

No, you wouldn’t have a living person inside a robotic shell. If you bodymorph into Steel, then your whole body goes. If you’re entire body doesn’t change, if you are still flesh underneath, then what you are talking about is the special effects from another power. ,,

Take the Thing, who basically has a permanent bodymorph: stone. Doesn't stop him from needing to eat, doesn't allow him to go into space.

Out side of maybe the movie, and assuming they haven't reconned it... IMHO the Thing doesn't have Bodymorph. This has been shown a number of times. He has had pieces of his Armor removed and under that is flesh, not more stone. The Thing has Armor and Density increase with some Taint that gives unfortunate side effects.

Colossus has Bodymorph, and yes, he doesn't need to breath when transformed because steel doesn't need to Breath. The Black Female Captain Marvel used to have Bodymorph (Light) and ditto. Ditto Monolith, etc. Whether this is a side effect from the Bodymorph, or it's just a theme thing (i.e. Peter could have Dorm 4) is beside the point. They have Adaptability. No Flesh. No need to eat while transformed and I have serious doubts that they can in any meaningful sense. These are the extreme cases and IMHO they’d be as immune to Vampire Blood (good effects and bad) as a stone statue or a true robot would. The issue is, assuming they are immune, do they get that immunity from Bodymorph, or Adaptability?

I would guess that Ben could be blood bonded if he drank Vamp Blood, he doesn't seem to have any defenses other than the Armor. In a lot of ways it would make this much simpler if The Thing *did* have bodymorph: Stone, and if Bodymorph *didn’t* give adaptability. Not only would that resolve the bodymorph issue it would also let us just say that Adaptability gives immunity.

[Finbar]

::brick Again, looking at it wrong.

Assuming the character has permanent Bodymorph, the person gains CERTAIN aspects of the Adaptability enhancement for free (not having to eat or drink, immunity to drugs, and survive in certain environments, but not being able to survive in ALL environments). However, it comes with certain liabilities as well (not being able to take advantage of medical techniques (including from the Life sphere and various garou gifts) and easily recognizable). Immunity to the the turning bite would follow.

Adaptability, BTW, wouldn't give you immunity to the bite or being ghouled; the bite is an attack, and the supernatural nature of being ghouled should prevent Adaptability from working, but that's just me...

FR

[Alex Green]

Assuming the character has permanent Bodymorph, the person gains CERTAIN aspects of the Adaptability enhancement for free...

Well put. But it doesn't have to be "permanent", it's more "while the power is active the person gains...". Obviously if Peter dorms (or if Ben learns how to) then he's messed up if he's attacked while the power isn't up.

...the bite is an attack, and the supernatural nature of being ghouled should prevent Adaptability from working, but that's just me...

Again, just because the attack is of origin "X" doesn't impress me. This is a cross over, we have to assume the various powers interact on a relatively equal footing.

Can the Blood be considered a poison or drug? Yes? But normally people can't defend against it? Other than the word "Magic", why exactly should it side step "Powered Poison Defense" type powers? Do we have examples of it doing so in the WOD? Do we have other examples of "poison" based characters in the WOD?

[Finbar]

My consideration re: the blood issue is that there are no actual game mechanics involved. As far as turning goes, you have to do enough to kill the person (ie, all their blood is drained), so it's the standard "you do enough to kill them, you can do pretty much what you want to with the body".

The ghouling situation is part of the Faustian bargain of being a vampire in the first place. You want the power of the blood (which is the only reason for drinking it in the first place). Even if it's been used in a sneak attack, there is the plus/minus of power gained versus potential thralldom. All I can suggest is that you make it a resistance roll if you really need to, but that negates its effects, and that in turn effects game balance (especially if we figure that vampires are relatively weak; that eliminates one of their better tricks, just as a lot of their other tricks have been nailed by various enhancements and powers (like I noted, about 8NP worth pretty much negates most vampiric abilities)).

FR

[Psilord]

Just to throw something into this mix.....

Page 141 of the AB:PG under Universe Creation specifically states that

fantasy realms (AKA magic) and horror realms (vampires) can be created.

This could infer that the magical forces of WOD may be based upon

the quantum and sub-quantum forces of AB, or even the other way around.

Supppose that they are NOT seperate forces for a moment. Suppose

that all the magical forces of WOD are in fact powered by quantum and

sub-quantum forces. Perhaps WOD is simply a universe wherein these forces

can be manipulated with far greater ease than in AB. After all, defining the

rules is expressly allowed by Universe Creation; think of the planning a

nova would have to do to lay out all the laws of WOD. ::wacko

It could even be that WOD was created by a powerful nova using Universe

Creation, or that AB was created by a powerful archmage or exemplar in

WOD using their power to create a new universe.

Now assuming for a moment that it is in fact this case (one way or the other),

then it would stand to reason that neither supernaturals nor novas would

suffer any particular vulnerability to the other's powers. This also means

that anything could be resisted giving the propper defenses.

Just a thought. ::biggrin

[Finbar]

Actually, that's pretty much the situation. The problem is that certain attacks (vampire's turning and ghouling people and fae enchantment through eat/drink) have no listed defense. So...how do defend against them? Or do you bother, as they are balanced against other things in the game world?

In essence, Psilord, and not trying to be a jerk, but you just didn't add anything to the conversation...

FR

[Alex Green]

Finbar: My consideration re: the blood issue is that there are no actual game mechanics involved.

Yeah, that’s a problem. On the other hand simply saying “no one gets a save” rewards a lack of mechanics (which I don’t like), punishes people who have specific defenses (ditto), and leads us to silly situations (bloodless novas who don’t react to anything chemically, aka the T-1000, being blood bonded).

One way to look at the “no mechanics” issue is that in the WOD, it simply isn’t possible for someone to do this. For example we could say it takes 8 succ (or more). However novas can really raise the bar on what is possible, and it feels odd to say they can’t do something because no baseline (or vampire) can. Similarly it feels odd to say that baselines can do things with bonus points that novas can’t do with nova points (specifically I’m thinking of the merit “Unbondable”, which I seem to recall seeing in a Mage book).

Finbar: …make it a resistance roll if you really need to, but that negates its effects, and that in turn effects game balance (especially if we figure that vampires are relatively weak; that eliminates one of their better tricks, just as a lot of their other tricks have been nailed by various enhancements and powers (like I noted, about 8NP worth pretty much negates most vampiric abilities)).

It’s unlikely a single nova is going to have *everything* needed to counter every vampire power. But even assuming that it does happen, why is that a problem? Adding risk to these sorts of things is very much in tune with dealing with novas. He might notice you, he might not. Your attack might kill him, it might bounce and leave him standing there laughing at you. It might mind control him, or he might just be pretending to be mind controlled. Novas are supposed to be unpredictable and in theory a nova can do… anything.

Vampires are numerous, Novas are rare. Vampires shouldn’t be going toe to toe with combat novas. They are supposed to be creatures of subtlety… so why aren’t they blood bonding the nova’s girlfriend, or bonding other novas to fight the one guy who is immune to everything? Or framing him for murder and that sort of thing?

Finbar: The problem is that certain attacks (vampire's turning and ghouling people and fae enchantment through eat/drink) have no listed defense. So...how do defend against them? Or do you bother, as they are balanced against other things in the game world?

Is it really balanced to poison a character who has Mega-Stamina 5 with Adaptability and Health (i.e. 11 auto succ in addition to 10 dice and 5 mega-dice) to resist this sort of thing? If that’s their starting character then they’ve spent roughly 30 nova points on the concept. Actually M-Stam 5 with Health drops Toxicity by 5 so this is saying that Blood is more toxic than Soma and Eclipsol… and gasoline and raw plutonium for that matter.

RE: Turning

Can non-humans be turned? Dogs, cats, Werewolves?

[Finbar]

1) Turning: Taking out the easy question first: Pretty much anything but ghosts or mummy can be turned. It's a bit silly to do so with animals (ghouling allows for immortality, and that means you don't need to deal with the possibility of a berserk feline out for blood (literally). Fae lose their special abilities (and can actually die), as do mages (but without the dying issue). Gypsies are an interesting case, as they lose their abilities in place of vampiric abilites, but can regain those abilities if they drink from another gypsy with those abilities.

Weres are a special case, as it requires basically botching a Gnosis for it happen (otherwise they die). The same applies to Kinfolk with Gnosis, and kitsune go up in flames. It's worth noting that vampirism is the only thing that can apply to others (weres can't become mages, or vice versa, for example), and you can't go from vampire to something else.

2) If a nova was turned, they would probably keep their quantum abilities. Not only are those abilities purely physical, but it's also in keeping with comic book tradition. At the same time, I would probably rule that a bodymorphed nova couldn't be turned, or drained of blood for that matter; although it's more supernatural, it requires blood, and if there's no blood, you can't drain it. So bodymorphed novas can be killed, but not worry about anything blood related.

3) You could always rule that blood drain is an actual energy drain, in which case it becomes touch, rather than bite, and it becomes an opposed roll of Willpower vs. Stamina, with a max related to generation (thus making it the same, but different and more useful for your purposes). As turning is related to draining energy, the character being turned must make a successful Willpower roll of his own in order to drain his first point within Sta minutes, or die. However, be advised that would apply first to a non-baselines special power source first (Gnosis for weres, Quintessence for mages, even Quantum for novas), and would affect even bodymorphed novas. If it helps...

4) Again, my concern is that novas with Mega-stats are pretty powerful as they are, and even a few dots would allow them to run roughshod over pretty much anyone else. Even with just a two mega-dots in each physical stat and Wits, and no other abilities and just the one enhancement (Quickness, Shockwave, Accuracy, and Regen), a nova could pretty nail any WOD type, even an expereienced WOD character, especially when you realize that the nova's Quantum pool will enable them to last longer than the WOD character.

By allowing them a chance to resist normally un-resistable abilities, which they are more than likely to do, you create a really powerful character. I'm just not buying the rarity, especially as the WOD wasn't created with novas in mind, and so therefore the WOD shouldn't have to change its balance to facilitate novas. Also, it's sort of nice to know that a vampire is still capable of causing some fear ("I have more than enough power to resist your feeble attacks!").

You need to realize that a nova is pretty powerful, and that there's no reason to change the rules to emphasize that. A nova can easily roll his way out of trouble. Also, few WOD characters dish out the kind of damage that novas are used to dealing with, and the only balancing factors are that some abilities (such as turning) are basically automatic, and the amount of aggravated damage available. Assuming you count novas as basically Awakened, of course; otherwise, a vampire becomes a lot more powerful...

FR

[Alex Green]

Finbar: 3) You could always rule that blood drain is an actual energy drain, in which case it becomes touch, rather than bite, and it becomes an opposed roll of Willpower vs. Stamina, with a max related to generation (thus making it the same, but different and more useful for your purposes).

If we go this route then the next question is, “draining what?” As I understand it, what you are draining is life energy, which is resisted by Willpower or Mega-Stamina.

Finbar: 4) Again, my concern is that novas with Mega-stats are pretty powerful as they are, and even a few dots would allow them to run roughshod over pretty much anyone else. Even with just a two mega-dots in each physical stat and Wits, and no other abilities and just the one enhancement (Quickness, Shockwave, Accuracy, and Regen), a nova could pretty nail any WOD type, even an expereienced WOD character, especially when you realize that the nova's Quantum pool will enable them to last longer than the WOD character.

Two issues. One, a few posts further up someone claimed that novas don’t last longer than WOD characters. I think the claim was that all of the WOD types get back their pool much faster than novas?

Two, if all the various Magical Aggravated attacks are still Aggravated (and that seems likely), then the above sample nova gets ripped into small pieces by the first pack of werewolves that he runs into. For that matter he probably also has serious issues with the various mental/social/aggravated things the Vampires can do.

Finbar: Also, it's sort of nice to know that a vampire is still capable of causing some fear ("I have more than enough power to resist your feeble attacks!").

Traditionally, Ghouls are servants of Vampires. Give that Ghoul 30 nova points and you could easily find the Vampires enslaved and/or hunted for their blood.

,,

Finbar: By allowing them a chance to resist normally un-resistable abilities, which they are more than likely to do, you create a really powerful character.

As soon as you say the word “Nova”, you already have the possibility of creating a powerful character. I suspect allowing Nova Ghouls and/or Nova Vampires would be more unbalancing than not allowing them. One of the cleaner ways to avoid this is simply say that quantum isn’t compatible with v-blood. Note that allowing a Nova to become a Vampire while giving up their quantum gifts is *still* broken because a nova could drop all 30 nova points on willpower, attributes, and abilities, and then make a really over the top vamp.

Assuming this is the way to go… Very rough proposal.

1) Novas can’t be Vamps. They die, but they don’t turn.

2) Novas can become Ghouls but gain no additional abilities beyond theme.

3) Novas can be blood bonded via the usual rules (but also see Health).

4) Adaptability doesn’t help deal with Vampire Blood (an adaptive nova already has the option to not eat).

5) Health Adds two Generations per dot of Mega-Stamina to any Vampire Blood he is exposed to. As usual, blood above Generation 14 has no affect.

6) The various magical creature Aggravated attacks in WOD are still Aggravated against novas, although fire and radiation are not.

7) Vampires can feed off of novas, but he must either feed from an open wound or be able to do lethal “ping” damage.

8) Normally Nova blood is effectively very strong baseline blood, but exceptions can come up because of taint, body modification, or Bodymorph issues which the ST will have to deal with individually.

9) For creature interaction, Novas are normally considered to be non-human magical Creatures. For Mages they are considered awakened and not sleepers, etc.

10) Taintless novas are considered to be detectable in the same way that Mages are. Tainted novas are fully detectable via Sense Worm (etc).

11) Note that this is seperate from the issue that novas normally stand out from the baseline "herd" via their Mega-App and/or "the nova physic".

12) Dormed novas appear to be baselines (or awakened non-mage sleepers) unless the detecting entity both has a relevant special sense and can overcome a difficulty equal to the novas dots in Dorm.

[Psilord]

Finbar, up to the point I posted it was still being debated that there was a difference between quantum powers and supernatural/magical powers. The main jist of my post was offering a resonable recourse to disallow any special favor towards either side based upon origin of power. I.E. "supernatural" abilities don't get to just ignore quantum defenses, because they are all based upon the same source.

As to nova-vampire interactions... (some is agreeing with Alex)

I would suggest that the ghoul and blood bond effects be treated as either mega-manipulative or mega-charismatic attacks, and defended against as such. Also, the more you drink, the harder it becomes to resist (added difficulty).

I would suggest that since all involved are using/manipulating quantum and sub-quantum forces (see my first post) that they could all be considered but different flavors of the same dish. That meaning a nova quantum user cannot be turned into a vampire quantum user because the turning effects is simply a specialized form of eruption, and the nova has already erupted. I would consider all WOD supernatural beings as being one basic flavor and all AB erupted beings as the other. A vampire could possibly turn other beings of their flavor, but not the other. Baselines have no flavor (pun unintended) and can go either way. I hope my thoughts came out making some kind of sense.

A nova's power comes from his node, not his blood, therefore a vampire feeding from a nova gains no more than from a normal human. Any special properties as defined for the individual nova's blood (such as acidic blood or special taint changes) would have to be handled on an individual basis.

Any WOD attack listed as aggrivated against WOD beings would be considered aggrivated against novas as well, after all its all based in quantum. Normal soak and other defenses as normal.

Taint would be sensed as worm, agreed. Quantum would be sensed sphere strength and quintessence by mages, generation and blood points by vampires, and so on. Mega attributes could possibly be sensed as vampire disciplines or the like.

Novas are considered awakened for purposes of mages and paradox.

Hopefully I added something this time.

[Finbar]

1) Again, Psilord, my apologies; it was just a weird break in the rhythm...

2) Actually, my question re: Awakened status was as regards vampiric disciplines. Paradox is a non-issue (pretty much anything goes for a nova as long as you have a theme, and magic is a theme, especially when you realize that most mages have a theme that's just as important to them as it to a nova) and Delirium doesn't count (it's not been genetically bred in). However, some disciplines treat Awakened differently than non-Awakened (Presence and Domination, for example).

3) I'm not sure if Quantum would be detected as, say, Quintessence by mages and blood by vamps. Although they would feel the power, I'm not sure if they would necessarily sense in terms of their own power base, especially when it's not, well, magical. Especially when mages can sense Forces...Sense Wyrm works because Quantum is sensed like a nuclear energy, and Sense Wyrm can be theoretically used that way, not because of the corruption it represents....

FR

[metaphysician]

Um, okay, my own comments:

1. Remember, aggravated damage means totally different things in WoD than in Aberrant. WoD agg is just damage thats hard to supernaturally heal. Aberrant agg is disintegration, or equivalent. While Aberrant agg would certainly function as WoD agg on WoD critters, the absolute most I could see WoD agg doing to novas is being harder to heal or regen. It would be soakable by lethal soak ( after all, WoD critters can soak their own agg as long as its not a special racial vulnerability ), and frankly, since nova powers aren't magic, I'm not even sure it would be harder to heal.

2. No, outside of elder monstrousities, none of the types of Werewolves or Vampires can match a nova in mega-attributes, beyond the first dot or so. Take a look at their relative lifting charts. More generally, compare what a WoD critter can actually do, with what a vaguely similar starting nova can do. 9 out of 10 times, I'll bet on the 30 NP nova.

3. As correlary to 2, no, absent major situational modifiers, or hauling out Methuselahs, novas are going to kick the ass of any local supernatural that particularly hassles them.

4. As for 'irresistable' supernatural effects, irresistable for the residents in one universe does not mean irresistable to all conceivable beings. For novas, I'd favor Mega-Stamina rolls to resist quasibiological effects like the blood bond, and Quantum+Node for more esoteric, but non mental based, effects.

5. Oh, and actually, I'd say Technocracy tech resources are actually better than most of the non quantum gadgetry stuff from the Aberrant, and even Trinity, era. They are the only ones who stand a chance of really containing or wiping out the newly arrived novas( outside of elder monstrousities ). Then again, they are the guys who have nukes.

6. Given paradox and unbelief have no effect on anyone who isn't a mage ( or in a modified form, changeling ), I don't see why it would bother novas. Sure, hardened gauntlet probably would mean that anyone with Crosstime Travel has to roll a couple more sux than normal, but meh.

7. OTOH, I don't get this idea that the presence of several thousand public novas would somehow not change the overall paradigm. Yeah, their powers seem surreal at times, but people don't exactly go insane for watching them, and there's a bunch of baselines who seem to spend plenty of time around novas while having perfectly normal interaction. Sure, they aren't going to change the paradigm overnight ( probably ), but they sure as hell are going to open the mind of people to the impossible.

[Alex Green]

1. Remember, aggravated damage means totally different things in WoD than in Aberrant. WoD agg is just damage thats hard to supernaturally heal. Aberrant agg is disintegration, or equivalent. While Aberrant agg would certainly function as WoD agg on WoD critters, the absolute most I could see WoD agg doing to novas is being harder to heal or regen. It would be soakable by lethal soak ( after all, WoD critters can soak their own agg as long as its not a special racial vulnerability ), and frankly, since nova powers aren't magic, I'm not even sure it would be harder to heal.

The acid test for this is "The Bank Vault Test".

Put a nova with 1 dot of Claws + Agg (which does 1d + succ in Agg) in a Bank Vault. He will cut his way free in less than an hour. It will take a while since he's not doing much damage, but the Vault has no soak and no healing, so eventually it gives way.

Can a Strength = 1 Werewolf do that with his claws? Can a Strength = 1 Vampire do that?

If the answer to those questions is "He can", then we might as well call them all the same.

[metaphysician]

The acid test for this is "The Bank Vault Test".

Put a nova with 1 dot of Claws + Agg (which does 1d + succ in Agg) in a Bank Vault. He will cut his way free in less than an hour. It will take a while since he's not doing much damage, but the Vault has no soak and no healing, so eventually it gives way.

Can a Strength = 1 Werewolf do that with his claws? Can a Strength = 1 Vampire do that?

If the answer to those questions is "He can", then we might as well call them all the same.

Then the answer is "nope." To the best of my knowledge, nothing at all in the WoD does agg to objects, nor can I think of much of anything that ignores object soak other than certain Matter and Prime magic effects. Certainly, any sane ST would laugh at the player who tried to have his vampire or werewolf do what you just described.

( as an aside, if a mage or similar pulled out a magical effect that ignores lethal soak on anybody, even mortals, and had the resistance to healing effect, *that* I'd entirely accept as doing Aberrant Agg damage. Of course, that usually takes, what, Prime 5? Life 4/Prime 4? )