14 replies to this topic

[Blue Thunder]

A few months ago I had the fortune of getting into contact with Andrew Bates himself.  We shared e-mails a few times discussing Aeon, specifically about the new psi order that was planned for Trinity: Bright Continent (which is currenty in the development stage here as an e-book).  The questions he answered were (and are) to remain a secret until the project is completed or near completion.  But there was one question I asked that didn't deal with BC directly, and I felt that the answer was too important to just keep secret.

Me: Were there going to be any new Trinity-era terms for mersmerists, stalwarts, or daredevils? Nippon has their own version of daredevils called Superiors (from the unofficial Asia Ascendant released by Baugh) but they aren't the same.

Bates: Nope; the terms exist already. Mesmerists are psions (or proto-psions, really). Stalwarts are novas/aberrants. Daredevils wouldn't even be labeled as such -- they're norms (heroic norms, sure, but norms nonetheless -- remember, daredevil abilities are based entirely on game mechanics; they are non-powered far as the setting is concerned). I haven't read Asia Ascendant so I can't speak to the "superiors", but I hope they're non-powered types like daredevils. There shouldn't be yet another powered type running around the setting.

The key is "Mesmerists are psions (or proto-psions, really). Stalwarts are novas/aberrants."  There has long been debate as to whether or not the Inspired are actually psions and novas, and whether or not telluric energy is real or just a term for both the quantum and subquantum forces the Inspired manipulate.  I really wish I had asked Bates to clarify, since his comment can still be open to interpretaton.

I'd personally always felt that mesmerists and stalwarts were differently wired than psiads and novas (essentally different, but manpulating the same forces), but Bates' comment has me thinking that the rules for the Inspired are just thematic in nature; that mesmerists are weak psiads and stalwarts are weak novas.


So...interpret his words however you wish.

[SkyLion]

I had always thought that the Inspired were the same as proto-psions/novas.  This is pretty clear with Donighal/Primoris/Divis.  Do you still have his e-mail?  Why not just ask for clarification?

[Blue Thunder]

I've been tempted to e-mail him again but he's a busy guy.

But, lately, there have been questions I've wanted answered since the last e-mail.

To be honest, I'd like to contact Blackwelder too, but I don't know how.

[Jackson Creed]

Okay, you just knew that I wouldn't be able to resist replying to this topic!

I think that we've all agreed on the fact that Telluric Energy is something that is used to describe the mysterious workings of Psi and Quantum in Inspired characters.

Personally, I think that stalwarts do use Quantum and mesmerists use Psi. The key difference between a stalwart and a Nova is the "superhuman barrier". What differentiates a stalwart from a Nova is the critical Quantum 1 rating. If someone has Quantum 1, then they have erupted as a Nova and have an active MR-Node. Stalwarts have abilities that use Quantum energy is a much more diffuse way (similar to the way in which Quantakinetics use Quantum; although in a less versatile way) and do not have an active MR-Node; they must make do with manipulating Quantum energy indirectly. It is stated that Stalwarts are proto-aberrants (well, proto-Novas) and this is held out by Dynamic Knacks. If Stalwarts are Novas, then they are Novas. No point playing about with Inspiration (just use Aberrant rules).

Mesmerists are a much more grey area, but the same sort of rule applies. Technically they should be Psiads, but their powers (Psychic knacks) are both less powerful, and much more specific than Psi Mode powers. In much the same way as stalwarts, mesmerists are proto-psiads (rather than proto-psions); they have access to Psi powers but without anywhere near the level of potential power of Psions or the potential versatility of Psiads.

Daredevils may or may not be just extraordinary humans who manipulate Psi, Quantum or both at a level that is far more unconscious and subtle; thus explaining their remarkable luck and skill. I suppose it depends on the type of story you run.

Andrew Bates may have meant this, and simply didn't have the time or space to put it in such terms, but equally he may have meant that mesmerists are Psiads and stalwarts are Novas. The problem is that many of the developers may have had different ideas on how Inspired characters work, and since the Eonverse is discontinued, we may never know exactly what the canon version would have been and which developer's version would have been adopted.

JC

[Sprocket]

There's one other little tidbit I've heard about daredevils/paramorphs that I'd like to add to the mix. It's supposedly from one of the writer/editor chats, so I have no hard evidence to show you guys. If any of you has saved those chats, I'd really like to find out whether the following is "backroom official" or not.  

Apparently, quantum and noetic energies don't react violently with each other (as we've seen with psions & aberrants in Trinity) at very low power levels. So instead of tapping into some third kind of energy, daredevils tap into both quantum and noetic energies at extremely low levels to affect probability & perform their other feats.

[SkyLion]

I had always heard that the paramorphs/daredevils were just supremely skilled and talented normals...their "powers" are just a thematic mechanic to simulate their extraordinary ability to "get things done"...

[Sprocket]

Yeah, that's Andrew Bates' take on the daredevils. I believe it was Bruce Baugh who stated that daredevils were paramorphs, and performed their mojo by manipulating perpendicular time (aka probability). This of course led to Mercer being portrayed as the uber-daredevil/paramorph, able to control linear time.

That's all been pretty well established, AFAIK. What I'd like to know is if the explanation that the daredevils' "power source" was telluric energy (very low-power quantum/noetic mixture) was ever supported by any of the writers/editors of the Aeon Continuum gamelines.

[Ian Watson]

Personally, I think that stalwarts do use Quantum and mesmerists use Psi. The key difference between a stalwart and a Nova is the "superhuman barrier". What differentiates a stalwart from a Nova is the critical Quantum 1 rating.

I don't buy this.

A stalwart can have an Inspiration of 10, and have sick powerz, but not be a nova?

I'm pretty sure of my footing when when I claim that what Andrew said is exactly what he meant: stalwarts are novas, just not as powerful as the ones presented in Aberrant. Mechanically they're different, yes, but biologically, within the confines of the Trinity Universe, they're essentially the same thing. The mechanical difference was largely a stylistic choice to better represent the pulp setting.

Ditto for mesmerists: they're psiads (i.e. proto-psions), not proto-psiads.

This is how I've always treated it, and Bruce has yet to correct me on the matter.

The problem is that many of the developers may have had different ideas on how Inspired characters work, and since the Eonverse is discontinued, we may never know exactly what the canon version would have been and which developer's version would have been adopted.

Aside from the whole daredevil/paramorph thing, I don't believe there was any real disagreement between Bruce and Andrew regarding any of the above.

Apparently, quantum and noetic energies don't react violently with each other (as we've seen with psions & aberrants in Trinity) at very low power levels. So instead of tapping into some third kind of energy, daredevils tap into both quantum and noetic energies at extremely low levels to affect probability & perform their other feats.

I don't think it was ever announced as such in any of the chats, but that was the idea, yes, at least as far as Bruce was concerned.

I had always heard that the daredevils were just supremely skilled and talented normals...their "powers" are just a thematic mechanic to simulate their extraordinary ability to "get things done"...

This, conversely, was Andrew's opinion.

I believe it was Bruce Baugh who stated that daredevils were paramorphs, and performed their mojo by manipulating perpendicular time (aka probability).

This was more or less Bruce's stance, but the "perpendicular time" thing came LJ user "aberranteyes," who had been one of my authors on the TSH. He said that daredevils manipulated perpedicular time subconsciously/unconsciously, while Mercer manipulated linear time consciously.

That's all been pretty well established, AFAIK. What I'd like to know is if the explanation that the daredevils' "power source" was telluric energy (very low-power quantum/noetic mixture) was ever supported by any of the writers/editors of the Aeon Continuum gamelines.

No. Not in the sense of treating it as a third kind of energy, at least.

[Blue Thunder]

In Asia Ascendant, it is revealed that daredevils possess a genetic signature different than that of "nomal" baselines.

The thing that gets to me is that Terra Verde sugests that players can play Inspired characters using Adventure rules.  But if they're just weaker versions of psiads and novas...why not create weaker psiads and novas, to better fit in with Trinity's system?  And why use Inspiration, which is designed for a pulp theme setting?  A 10-point nova with a Quantum restriction of 2 or 3 and no access to level 3 powers or very high Mega-Attributes could work, or a psiad with even harsher restrictions could work.

Also, I've noticed that there is another form of psi user we are forgetting.  In Terra Verde, it says that some of the researchers (and others) at the source of the Venezulan Phenomenon have gained natural Auxiliary modes, despite being baselines.  It is said they gain one or two dots in Psi Modes, max.  In Implicate Order, I'm labelling these few people "sub-psions"

[Ian Watson]

The thing that gets to me is that Terra Verde sugests that players can play Inspired characters using Adventure rules.  But if they're just weaker versions of psiads and novas...why not create weaker psiads and novas, to better fit in with Trinity's system?  And why use Inspiration, which is designed for a pulp theme setting?  A 10-point nova with a Quantum restriction of 2 or 3 and no access to level 3 powers or very high Mega-Attributes could work, or a psiad with even harsher restrictions could work.

Probably because it's easier to say "use this existing ruleset, which works fine" rather than "here are new rule variations for playing low-power psiads and low-power novas." Also, since Adventure! had just come out at the time, it was a good idea to cross-promote.

Also, I've noticed that there is another form of psi user we are forgetting.  In Terra Verde, it says that some of the researchers (and others) at the source of the Venezulan Phenomenon have gained natural Auxiliary modes, despite being baselines.  It is said they gain one or two dots in Psi Modes, max.  In Implicate Order, I'm labelling these few people "sub-psions"

I believe the paragraph you're referring to is this:

Stranger yet, a large number of neutrals within the Zone exhibited strong signs of latency. Some neutrals spontaneously developed weak psi abilities — no more than 2 dots of modes, but not necessarily restricted to a single aptitude. Others displayed even stranger expressions that tap into the subquantum universe, but produce effects unrecorded by noetic science.

"Latency," to me, indicates that these neutrals have just become latents, i.e. proto-psions. Naturally, they'd "spontaneously develop" no more than two dots of modes, but would be able to extend on this range with time and training just like any other psiad.

[Blue Thunder]

Now that I read it again, your explanation makes more sense.

So it looks like the Norca have some psiads.

Others displayed even stranger expressions that tap into the subquantum universe, but produce effects unrecorded by noetic science.

Is this a reference to daredevils?  I assumed novas at first, but it says "subquantum."  Maybe psiads can use more Modes than psions.  It would make sense from a setting POV since psions have genetic restrictions on what they can do.  A psiad could possibly use magnetic powers, for example, which could fit into Electrokinesis (even if "Electrokinesis" doesn't really exist to a psiad...just the Modes).

[Ian Watson]

Is this a reference to daredevils?  I assumed novas at first, but it says "subquantum."  Maybe psiads can use more Modes than psions.  It would make sense from a setting POV since psions have genetic restrictions on what they can do.  A psiad could possibly use magnetic powers, for example, which could fit into Electrokinesis (even if "Electrokinesis" doesn't really exist to a psiad...just the Modes).

I assumed it was a reference to daredevils.

In a manner of speaking, daredevils do tap into the subquantum in the same way that they tap into quantum, they just aren't aware of it. The opening fic to Asia Ascendant gives an example of one or two such daredevils.

And yes, psiads have far fewer restrictions than psions, according to the rules in the APG.

[Jackson Creed]

From a game design point of view, the problem here is the one I touched on in my previous post: the Aeonverse was discontinued before we were told what the canon version of Inspired/Paramorphs/whatever was. Each of the developers seems to have had their own version of how Inspired would fit into the Aberrant or Trinity eras. We can argue and quote developer chats, from now until eternity, and still come up with no clear consensus. If Asia Ascendant was published BEFORE the shutdown, then perhaps Bruce's view may have held sway. The problem is, it didn't. AsAs is an unofficial sourcebook, even if it which contains 70%-90% of what was going to be in the offical version, it still is not canon (granted it is as close to canon as we are likely to get... and we still thank Bruce profusely for giving it to us!!!).

IanWatson uses Bruce's viewpoint, I use another (a strange hybrid of POVs to be sure!), and others have other ideas. This is not a bad thing. Even my viewpoint has changed considerably since I started work on Trinity: AI, but I disagree with certain aspects of the Trinity Storytellers Guide regarding Inspired. So I decided to create MY version of how Inspired work in the Trinity setting (Trinity: AI). However, the Golden Rule in ALL games is: use what you want, ignore the rest. These lively debates we have actually inspire (excuse the pun) new ideas and so this whole subject remains dynamic and full of potential.

From an In-Character point of view. the noetic scientists of the 2120's don't even know the difference between Quantum and Taint. The two are similar but their natures are very different. So using In-Character information (whether it be from Adventure!, Aberrant or Trinity) to describe how the Aeonverse physics is problematic at best. There is no-one in the entire Aeon universe who knows that full story behind how Quantum forces interact with Subquantum forces and Time; even Max Mercer or Divis Mal! Everyone in the Aeonverse looks at it in their own way; in the 1920's, the explanation is Telluric energy; in 2000's to 2050's its Quantum; the post Exodus era and early 2100s its Taint; and in the Trinity era after 2104, its Subquantum and Taint.

So, where was I? Oh yes; Inspired in the post Process 418 era. No matter what our different viewpoints are, we should all accept the fact that there will always be people who will disagree with our interpretation of how paramorphs work their mojo. We are all doing our various projects; Storyteller Guide by IanWatson and co over at WolfSpoor, Bright Continent by Blue Thunder and Trinity: AI by myself over here at EON. We all have somewhat different ideas, and that is a good thing, because people can pick and choose which of our different visions (or whichever bits from each they like) to incorporate into their games. At the end of the day, regardless of who is the closest to what the vision of Inpired/paramorphs was going to be, all of our hard work can be enjoyed by people who can then make up their own minds about what they like.

Regards,
JC

[Blue Thunder]

Well put.

[Gywidion]