Aberrant RPG - Space travel for the nova in you

[BlueNinja]

I was a bit bored, and started doing the math for maximum speeds for novas who can fly. A nova with Flight 5 and Hypermovement 5 moves a lousy 156 mph (252 kmph) in combat, and 2500 kmph out of it. Even with Mastery on both powers, you still move only 5,000 kmph out of combat, and a mere 504 kmph in combat (313 mph). To break the sound barrier while flying in combat, you need one of those powers with Mastery 2, and the other with a regular mastery, and both of them at eight dots.

At ten dots in both Flight and Hypermovement, and Mastery 3 on both powers, the nova can only do about fifteen thousand kmph in combat, or 100,000 kmph out of combat. That means it'll take you about 24 days to reach Mars at its closest point to Earth. 246 days to reach Jupiter. And over ten thousand years to reach Alpha Centauri.

Now, compare this with a nova with Warp. With Mars needing 9 successes to reach it at its closest point, you need a nova with Quantum 5, Warp 5, and Perception 5 (ignoring Mega-Per, for now). At it's furthest point, you need 10 successes. Now lets assume your warper has Quantum 6, Warp 6 with Mastery, Perception 5, and Mega-Perception 6. He'll be getting an average of 6+(6*0.4*2)+(5*0.4)+(6*0.9)=18.2 successes, or a total distance of 200,000,000,000,000,000 - or over twenty-one thousand Light-Years.

This is a bit odd, given how all of the Colony's attacks in the Trinity era come from outer space, when it could drop them all onto any point on Earth and do just as much damage, if not more. It's more odd since all of the cannon fodder aberrants can fly and survive in outer space - but with the power of a god, couldn't make it from the edge of the Solar system to Earth in under a year. It also makes you wonder what the hell kind of engines they're using in the Trinity era. ::blink

[Blue Thunder]

The Colony could just drop a horde of Aberrants on Earth, but that would be a waste of his resources (and quite disasterous for the players...). At this point, I'm pretty sure he wants to wait for the Coalition to attack. He'll take advantage of the situation and make a play for Earth. He'll mop up what's left of either the Coalition or the psions and take over Earth. Well, that's probably his plan. It won't work of course. The players' characters will somehow make everything okay. That's what they're there for, right?

As for the Hypermovement thing, does the Enhanced Movement enhancement for Mega-Dex add anything significant?

[BlueNinja]

As for the Hypermovement thing, does the Enhanced Movement enhancement for Mega-Dex add anything significant?

Since it only applies to in-combat movement, I didn't count it, though I suppose I could go back and check it.

[Sprocket]

Looks like you just found out what drove me to write up that "Starflight" power (found on p. 19 of the "New Powers" thread) a few years back, BlueNinja. I too was seriously disappointed to see that no canon provisions were made for novas who should be capable of spaceflight at relativistic and/or FTL speeds. ::wink

[Nullifier]

There is a way for a character to travel at lightspeed. The Transmit power, with the Boardband Extra found on p.142-143 of the Aberrant: Project Utopia with the medium as some form of EM radiation (radio waves, visible light, IR, UV, etc.), and a weakness that the max speed is the speed of light. Could even make it part of a Bodymorph. I'm pretty sure that's what Lumen, a nova referred to in the APG section on spaceflight, has as Hypermovement obviously doesn't work for that sort of thing.

FTL in Aberrant and Trinity seems limited to Warp/Teleportation type powers that provide shortcuts between two points in space. There's no hyperspace/subspace so the standard laws of physics apply and nothing but neutrinos go FTL, nothing but light goes lightspeed, and relativitistic velocities require huge, exponentially increasing amounts of energy to reach.

Those are just my thoughts on the subject, though, I suppose others have a different take on the situation.

Edit: Oh, and yes, Enhanced Movement multiplies after applying Hypermovement, works out of combat, and can be activated for entire scenes. Unfortunately, it doesn't work on the Flight power, only on walking, running, sprinting, or swimming, making it useless for space travel. However, on land or water, with Mastery 1, and Mega-Dex 6, it maxes out at 35,000kmph, which isn't too shabby.

[Sprocket]

No arguments as to Transmit allowing lightspeed travel, provided one invests enough nova points (or dots of Bodymorph) into that power. Ditto for Enhanced Movement. That said, lightspeed is still pitifully slow if a nova is wanting to attempt interstellar travel without using Warp. Besides, the thought of actual FTL flight is simply too much fun to be ignored. ::biggrin

Nullifier is also correct in stating that the official Aberrant books didn't offer much in the "ways & means" of serious interstellar travel beyond a maxed-out Warp. I guess the writers felt that most of the action in the Nova Age would be either happening on Earth or in the Solar System, and something like Starflight wouldn't be worthwhile for them to publish, until they were supposed to put out Aberrant: Nexus.

[SkyLion]

FYI: The APG errata allows M-Dex: Enhanced Move to apply to all non-warp/t-port powers, specifically including flight...

[SkyLion]

Oh and something else that would help based on a speedster PC of mine...

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The combat speeds listed are per turn...normally at only one action per turn. By stacking multiple actions (my favorite way being a combo of Quickness AND Temporal acceleration (prefferably with maxed successes)) one could concievably get way higher velocities in combat move, possibly even higher than the out of combat although I haven't figured out the math...yet...

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now add 1 maxed warp per turn at those speeds and you can cover some distance! ::wacko

[Nullifier]

FYI: The APG errata allows M-Dex: Enhanced Move to apply to all non-warp/t-port powers, specifically including flight...

...But not including movement powers gained as techniques, interestingly enough. That's APG p.62.

So I guess max speed in flight is 15,000kmph at Q5 and 35,000 kmph at Q6. Not too bad, but still not particularly useful for interstellar space travel.

[SkyLion]

...But not including movement powers gained as techniques, interestingly enough. That's APG p.62.

So I guess max speed in flight is 15,000kmph at Q5 and 35,000 kmph at Q6. Not too bad, but still not particularly useful for interstellar space travel.

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Well you are right about its limited usefulness...I beleive there have been other threads discussing the seeming divide betwen what the mechanics allow and what the canon source material seems to indicate Novas do "as a matter of routine." ie outpacing fighter jets.

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However I believe you misunderstood that sentance from the APG. It reads "except Teleportation, Warp or other instantaneous modes or movement powers gained as techniques. So flight would be an acceptable technique but not t-port or transmit as a technique (say, from bodymorph energy or similar.)

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Which brings me to another point.... Why oh Why would I want most of the suite powers anyway...for the most part they suck! For example, I have a gravity manipulator. Why would I pay the cost for a dot in the level three power of gravity control and take the power gravitokinesis??? Its only half as effective as just paying for the level 2 power, Telekinesis and defining it as a gravity based phenomena.

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Sigh...I love the game but the more I play the more these things jump out at me. Their intentions were noble but the execution remains problematic...they should have just taken a tip from the hero system and presented all their powers in generic form and left the special effects to the player. Yes I know they did this for the most part, say with Q-bolt, but the suite powers should have been listed separately as examples, with the idea of a suite being presented as a Hero-system like "power framework." Great ideas...sloppy execution.

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Not that its stopped anybody from playing Rifts either... ::wacko

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(Interestingly enough, my group has solved ALL of Rifts mechanics problems while leaving the setting intact...elegantly and in one fell swoop. Let me know if anyone is interested and I'll start a thread...)

[Nullifier]

Well you are right about its limited usefulness...I beleive there have been other threads discussing the seeming divide betwen what the mechanics allow and what the canon source material seems to indicate Novas do "as a matter of routine." ie outpacing fighter jets.

However I believe you misunderstood that sentance from the APG. It reads "except Teleportation, Warp or other instantaneous modes or movement powers gained as techniques. So flight would be an acceptable technique but not t-port or transmit as a technique (say, from bodymorph energy or similar.)

15,000kmph is over mach 12, which easily outpaces fighter jets.

According to this site, the fastest manned aircraft tops out at mach 6.72. However, as the site indicates spacecraft tend to travel much faster; Apollo 10 hit mach 37.6 on re-entry according to the site.

I didn't misunderstand anything, you did. The term 'techniques' specifically refers to suite powers, which are the only powers said to have 'techniques.' Flight is a power, not a technique, even when gained through Bodymorph.

Which brings me to another point.... Why oh Why would I want most of the suite powers anyway...for the most part they suck! For example, I have a gravity manipulator. Why would I pay the cost for a dot in the level three power of gravity control and take the power gravitokinesis??? Its only half as effective as just paying for the level 2 power, Telekinesis and defining it as a gravity based phenomena.

Perhaps, but with the suite power you have access to all the other suite powers even with only one dot. Not only that, but with 5 dots of a suite you have five different powers at 5 dots each (and often access to many more), some of which are unavailable elsewhere in any form. For example: in the suite power Gravity Control there's a technique called Gravitational Field which could easily qualify as a level three power in and of itself. Also there's the Gravitic Shield which actually subtracts from attack successes.

Sigh...I love the game but the more I play the more these things jump out at me. Their intentions were noble but the execution remains problematic...they should have just taken a tip from the hero system and presented all their powers in generic form and left the special effects to the player. Yes I know they did this for the most part, say with Q-bolt, but the suite powers should have been listed separately as examples, with the idea of a suite being presented as a Hero-system like "power framework." Great ideas...sloppy execution

Actually, there are two "power framework" generic type suite powers: Elemental Anima and Elemental Mastery. Given that the Mastery allows use of all the Anima techniques, a single dot of Elemental Mastery provides access to 19 seperate techniques (including the ones in the APG and Teragen book), many of which are completely unavailable elsewhere. That's a pretty impressive bag of tricks for a single dot in a power. Also, the ability to pick different elements and known techniques allows for impressive personalization.

Seems like good execution of the concept to me.... ::rolleyes ::tongue ::biggrin

[SkyLion]

15,000kmph is over mach 12, which easily outpaces fighter jets.

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true...but thats at 5 dots with maxed Mega dex and an enhancement...I doubt there is more than a hanful of Novas who have this...a far cry from the "matter of course" flavor presented in the setting material....

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I didn't misunderstand anything, you did. The term 'techniques' specifically refers to suite powers, which are the only powers said to have 'techniques.' Flight is a power, not a technique, even when gained through Bodymorph.

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I still think you misunderstand the errata. Let me clarify with boldness....

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It reads:

"except Teleportation, Warp <<or other instantaneous modes or movement powers gained as techniques>>"

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not:

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"except teleportaion, warp or other instantaneous modes or <<movement powers gained as techniques.>>"

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A better and more clear way to have worded it IMHO would have been. "except instantaneous movement powers including those bought as suite techniques."

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Perhaps, but with the suite power you have access to all the other suite powers even with only one dot. Not only that, but with 5 dots of a suite you have five different powers at 5 dots each (and often access to many more), some of which are unavailable elsewhere in any form. For example: in the suite power Gravity Control there's a technique called Gravitational Field which could easily qualify as a level three power in and of itself. Also there's the Gravitic Shield which actually subtracts from attack successes.

Actually, there are two "power framework" generic type suite powers: Elemental Anima and Elemental Mastery. Given that the Mastery allows use of all the Anima techniques, a single dot of Elemental Mastery provides access to 19 seperate techniques (including the ones in the APG and Teragen book), many of which are completely unavailable elsewhere. That's a pretty impressive bag of tricks for a single dot in a power. Also, the ability to pick different elements and known techniques allows for impressive personlization.

Seems like good execution of the concept to me.... ::rolleyes ::tongue ::biggrin

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I can see your point but its still sloppy. You obviously havent played using the Hero System or even Marvel.

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Elemental Anima and Mastery should have been streamlined into a single "framework" IMHO and gravity, magnetism, and weather and time manip should have have been included as special effects for the various objects for it to be truly streamlined...rather than having to whip out special rules for them.

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Granted its nice to have "access" to techniques you haven't "mastered" but the glaring problems of buying a level 2 Q-bolt being better at 5 dots than a technique version and especially the "TK techniques" being only havlf as effective...simply a waste of page space, again IMHO.

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Also, the suite powers should either be based off of a single attribute or even better allow the player to determine the attribute basis depending on the special effect. This might lead to abuse if people were cheeser about it and didnt really have a good reason for something different but thats what STs are for! ::biggrin

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For example...someone who throws q-olts using Mega Per or Int rather than dex because its based on their mental effect or as eyebeams (shoots where you see...better than using dex to "aim" or "point") that isnt strictly a "mental blast" power.

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Anyone else see my points or disagree? I know Nullifier here loves a good debate but Id like to hear from others on the subject. Especially you BN, since you brought up the thread (which I have tangented slightly).

[BlueNinja]

It reads:

"except Teleportation, Warp <<or other instantaneous modes or movement powers gained as techniques>>"

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not:

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"except teleportaion, warp or other instantaneous modes or <<movement powers gained as techniques.>>"

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A better and more clear way to have worded it IMHO would have been. "except instantaneous movement powers including those bought as suite techniques."

Since there are no instantaneous movement powers in any suite powers (excluding Crosstime Travel and Time Travel, which I'm not sure if they actually qualify as 'movement'), the second bold part is the one that makes sense. I think we can all agree that White Wolf books need editors who are English majors. ::smile,,

Elemental Anima and Mastery should have been streamlined into a single "framework" IMHO

That I can agree with, just needed a little thing saying that at Quantum 4 you can only manipulate it, and at quantum 5 you can create it.

and gravity, magnetism, and weather and time manip should have have been included as special effects for the various objects for it to be truly streamlined...rather than having to whip out special rules for them.

I like them as seperate powers. They actually make more sense that way, since neither Gravitokinesis nor Magnetikinesis work the same way that Telekinesis does, they just use the same weight tables.,,

Anyone else see my points or disagree? I know Nullifier here loves a good debate but Id like to hear from others on the subject. Especially you BN, since you brought up the thread (which I have tangented slightly).

Hey now, I was just pointing out a little anomoly between the Aberrant rules and the Trinity canon background.

To get back on topic though, the Flight and Hypermovement are obviously written for travel in an atmosphere. Wouldn't they be faster outside of the atmosphere (and therefore without air resistance) ??

[Nullifier]

QUOTE

15,000kmph is over mach 12, which easily outpaces fighter jets.

true...but thats at 5 dots with maxed Mega dex and an enhancement...I doubt there is more than a hanful of Novas who have this...a far cry from the "matter of course" flavor presented in the setting material....

Right, o.k., a more down to Earth example: A nova with Hypermovement 3, Mega Dex 3, and Enhanced Movement moves at 6000kmph, which is just a touch under mach 5, which easily outpaces every fighter jet on the planet except for the x-15. Seems pretty easily done to me.

QUOTE

I didn't misunderstand anything, you did. The term 'techniques' specifically refers to suite powers, which are the only powers said to have 'techniques.' Flight is a power, not a technique, even when gained through Bodymorph.

I still think you misunderstand the errata. Let me clarify with boldness....

It reads:

"except Teleportation, Warp <<or other instantaneous modes or movement powers gained as techniques>>"

not:

"except teleportaion, warp or other instantaneous modes or <<movement powers gained as techniques.>>"

A better and more clear way to have worded it IMHO would have been. "except instantaneous movement powers including those bought as suite techniques."

There are no instantaneous movement powers that can be bought as suite techniques. Besides whichit states movement powers gained as techniques as explicitly seperate from Teleportation, Warp, or other instantaneous modes which it wouldn't have to do unless it was referring to movement powers bought as techniques that aren't teleport, warp, or some other form of instantaneous travel. What you're suggesting makes the last part completely redundant, and therefore makes no logical sense.

Elemental Anima and Mastery should have been streamlined into a single "framework" IMHO and gravity, magnetism, and weather and time manip should have have been included as special effects for the various objects for it to be truly streamlined...rather than having to whip out special rules for them.

That's actually relatively impratical given the nature of the various types of powers. In fact, given the limitations of the d10 format, the suite powers are a remarkable elegant solution to the problem of generic power frameworks. They're even relatively steamlined in that they tend to use the same applicable techniques in the various suites, yet allow for considerable deviation from the norm and even control over whole categories whose effects are so exotic that they necessitate the formation of new rules. In fact, the Gravity Control and Weather Manipulation suites both have techniques lifted from Elemental Anima&Mastery, while Temporal Manipulation uses all its own, which makes sense since controlling gravity and the weather have many of the same physical effects as controlling elements, while controlling time generally doesn't.

Trying to streamline 'em by putting them all together limits not only their uniqueness, but also the range of effects as all the suite powers have techniques available to them not available elsewhere which helps emphasize the uniqueness of the category of control. Of course the flexibility comes with a price, but so what? That just gives you even more flexibility, since you can always go buy q-bolt, flight, ff, and tk, with the added bonus of being able to choose a different special effect from your suite power. In the case of tk, ff, and q-bolt it allows for the simultaneous use of what amounts to multiples of the same power without resorting to the MIRV extra. Finally, though Gravitokinesis is half-strength and Magnetokinesis only works on metal, they're both concentration powers, allowing them to be used and maintained indefinately with a single expendiature of qps, whereas tk is a maintenence power, which means though it's 'set-and-forget' friendly it has to be kept up with a qp expenditure.

Also, the suite powers should either be based off of a single attribute or even better allow the player to determine the attribute basis depending on the special effect. This might lead to abuse if people were cheeser about it and didnt really have a good reason for something different but thats what STs are for!

For example...someone who throws q-olts using Mega Per or Int rather than dex because its based on their mental effect or as eyebeams (shoots where you see...better than using dex to "aim" or "point") that isnt strictly a "mental blast" power.

That would destroy game balance in so many ways, I won't even begin. You think you don't need to dexterously aim or point your eyes in just the right direction to hit your target if beams shoot out of them? I think that's incorrect, just as a general statement, especially given bifocal vision and the lack of laser pointers in our pupils. If you want to blast someone with your mind, that's a Mental Blast by its very definition. The whole point of a Q-Bolt is that it's a physical attack, not a mental one.

I can see your point but its still sloppy. You obviously havent played using the Hero System or even Marvel.

You're wrong about that.

Anyone else see my points or disagree? I know Nullifier here loves a good debate but Id like to hear from others on the subject. Especially you BN, since you brought up the thread (which I have tangented slightly).

::huh

What, my opinion isn't good enough for you? ::tongue I'm not arguing just because I like to argue in this case. I'm arguing because I actually think you're wrong about a number of things. ::rolleyes ::tongue ::biggrin

[Nullifier]

To get back on topic though, the Flight and Hypermovement are obviously written for travel in an atmosphere. Wouldn't they be faster outside of the atmosphere (and therefore without air resistance) ??

Only if (and given the mechanics this is manifestly not the case) the powers provided for some sort of constant acceleration. Unfortunately, unlike conventional methods of propulsion, quantum powers move the character quickly up to a constant relative velocity with almost unlimited acceleration, which then drops to nothing at max velocity, at least that's what the mechanics make it look like is happening. Personally I think it was done that way to simplify the mathematics of the situation, acceleration curves being a lot more difficult to calculate than relative velocities, since they're square quantities.

To wit: without a method of constant acceleration max relative velocity remains the same even in a vaccum. If you flew into a high orbit then turned off your movement powers and allowed gravity to take hold you could actually work up quite a large relative velocity and then use your Flight and Hypermovement to tweek your delta-v. Of course, you'd have to reverse the gravity-gained relative velocity before you could ever land again, and you'd need another gravity assist to do it.

[SkyLion]

Re: Nullifier's post: How predictable.... ::tongue ...not that I dont appreciate such opinionated discourse.

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I will add only 2 things to this dicussion.

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1. One could buy transmit or teleport or warp as part of an energy bodymorph and then enhanced movement wouldnt apply. I still maintain the first interpretation of the syntax is the correct one but without those English Majors whipping the editors into shape we may just have to agree to disagree...

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2. Travel in space is not limited to a maximum velocity, rather it is limited to how much thrust you can apply to acceleration per unit of time measurment. If you accelerate at a rate of 10 meters per second you will continue to accelerate in velocity at your maximum thrust until you run out of juice/fuel/whatever. Of course it would take just as long thrusting in the opposite direction to slow down again...

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The trin developers didnt understand this either or maybe they did and just simplified it for us gamers...like we've never taken physics or something ::glare Or at the very least know how to operate google. ::huh

[BlueNinja]

2. Travel in space is not limited to a maximum velocity, rather it is limited to how much thrust you can apply to acceleration per unit of time measurment. If you accelerate at a rate of 10 meters per second you will continue to accelerate in velocity at your maximum thrust until you run out of juice/fuel/whatever. Of course it would take just as long thrusting in the opposite direction to slow down again...

Actually, given my limiting knowledge of astrophysics, my understanding was that 'maximum speed' in real space is somewhere around 99% of lightspeed, but the requirements of fuel and limits on acceleration to preserve human life limit feasible travel to a great deal less than this. However, powers in Aberrant are not listed by acceleration, but by maximum velocity, which barring some creative interpretation would be the same no matter where you went. The only method I can picture accelerating you faster than this is some really weird gravity drive, but I'm not even sure how to set it up.

Unfortunately, unlike conventional methods of propulsion, quantum powers move the character quickly up to a constant relative velocity with almost unlimited acceleration, which then drops to nothing at max velocity, at least that's what the mechanics make it look like is happening.

Yes, but my question was, without the air resistance wouldn't the max velocity increase, as the power would apply the same amount of acceleration for the same period of time from the nova's point of view?

To add in Enhanced Movement (if it even applies to out-of-combat movement, which the description makes seem rather unlikely, but what the heck)

Max speed with Hypermovement 10 (Mastery 3) is 100,000 kmph.

Max speed with that, and Mega-Dex 10 (Enhanced Movement) is 1,100,000 kmph. Which is a larger speed, but still a very small percentage of lightspeed. At least it would cut that trip to Alpha Centauri down to a dozen centuries or so, rather than ten thousand years. ::happy

[SkyLion]

Actually, given my limiting knowledge of astrophysics, my understanding was that 'maximum speed' in real space is somewhere around 99% of lightspeed, but the requirements of fuel and limits on acceleration to preserve human life limit feasible travel to a great deal less than this. However, powers in Aberrant are not listed by acceleration, but by maximum velocity, which barring some creative interpretation would be the same no matter where you went. The only method I can picture accelerating you faster than this is some really weird gravity drive, but I'm not even sure how to set it up.

Yes, but my question was, without the air resistance wouldn't the max velocity increase, as the power would apply the same amount of acceleration for the same period of time from the nova's point of view?

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You are correct about the 99% of C.

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What you are not understanding is that flight through space is based on your thrust...the amount of power you generate...continuous thrust would mean continuous acceleration...in space there would be next to 0 friction allowing you to accelerate indefinitly limited by your fuel. In the real practical world, our spacecraft accelerate using short controlled bursts of thrust. The longer the burst the more acceleration occurs (at a rate equal to the maximum thrust per unit of time). when the thrust stops, the velocity remains constant at the point of cessation. Now Novas have limited juice as well but consider that flight as a maintenance power could be kept up out of combat for many hours...a whole scene really of continuous thrust and ever increasing acceleartion. At the point at which juice is low the thrust stops and q-regeneration happens hopefully with the power of that name to help. Barring any collisions during this time (unlikely with the M dex we are talking about) one could then continue the thrust, accelerating again and having lost no velocity (no drag+the properties of inertia...the reason objects in motion dont just keep moving on earth is friction and the gravity well). Now consider that with mastery three and perhaps the reduced cost extra one wouldn't have to worry about juice and near lightspeed becomes MUCH more obtainable to high end Novas. Also consider that anyone with Q10 and all those M-Dex and Hypermove one would proabbly be advanced enough to plank scale away the energy/mass problems of approaching or exeeding lightspeed...

[Nullifier]

Yes, but my question was, without the air resistance wouldn't the max velocity increase, as the power would apply the same amount of acceleration for the same period of time from the nova's point of view?

What you are not understanding is that flight through space is based on your thrust...the amount of power you generate...continuous thrust would mean continuous acceleration...in space there would be next to 0 friction allowing you to accelerate indefinitly limited by your fuel.

Riiiiiight... Okay, I didn't want to get into this, because it's weird and complicated, but let's discuss the real heart of the issue here. The real question seems to be something like "Do real-world physics apply to the acceleration of novas, or are the mechanics in the books an accurate reflection of what's really going on, or is some combination in operation?"

That's a pretty valid question to ask, and one I've asked on many occasions of many different GMs in many different games. In this case, as always, the final word is up to the GM, ST, etc. in question. However, there are a few things that can be said about the subject.

As Skylion correctly points out, acceleration in is determined by the amount of vectored force (not thrust, but close enough) that acts upon an object, subject to an increasing curve approaching infinity as velocity nears lightspeed. Note that this holds true everywhere and that velocity is always relative to lightspeed which is a constant. These real-world physics conditions make nova flight powers problematic at best if mechanics are anything to go by. This is because nova flight powers as described in the book have an almost infinite delta-v, yet a finite velocity. Simply stated, according to the mechanics novas with Hypermovement 4 can be going 2000kmph in one direction, then suddenly be going the exact same speed in the opposite direction, yet are unable to exceed that speed in any particular direction. In real world physics, the only thing I can think of capable of even hypothetically producing such an effect would be a direct manipulation of the spatial metric, which is unlike force based acceleration, and more like sliding through space. If the nova were undergoing force-based acceleration, their almost infinite delta-v would instant kill them the first time they used the power as near-infinite g-forces squash them flat. With manipulation of the spatial metric, however, they'd just be sliding through space, not exeperiencing any g-force or acceleration. The issue with using the sliding through space metaphor, however, is that in space each activation would theoretically accelerate the nova by that amount up until and possibly even beyond lightspeed. With the force-based acceleration as a metaphor, which Skylion is advocating for, what you could do is (ignoring the weird near-infinite force turning capability) calculate the amount of force necessary to accelerate the nova to its max speed in a 1 g field at 1 atmosphere of pressure and keep it there despite atomospheric friction and gravity. Then calculate the nova's total relative velocity to the star you're trying to get to and apply Einstien's relativity equations to figure out your max velocity relative to the speed of light and how long it will take you to get there. That'll all take a lot of calculus and physics.

Alternatively, you can just take the mechanics as the word of god and just ignore the physics entirely, which imho is the most practical option since there are at least three powers that allow for instantaneous (or at least relatively speedy) interstellar travel at PC power levels and the real-world physics of the flight and speed powers are problematic at best any way you look at it given the mechanics. ::brick ::biggrin ::tongue ::ultracool

[SkyLion]

I just read that the some scientists are now questioning the constance of the speed of light. They are now saying that it has measurable slowed since thie big bang. In other words, don't get to attached to anything...the world was flat once ya know. ::wink

[Alex Green]

Now lets assume your warper has Quantum 6, Warp 6 with Mastery, Perception 5, and Mega-Perception 6. He'll be getting an average of 6+(6*0.4*2)+(5*0.4)+(6*0.9)=18.2 successes, or a total distance of 200,000,000,000,000,000 - or over twenty-one thousand Light-Years.

This is a bit odd, given how all of the Colony's attacks in the Trinity era come from outer space, when it could drop them all onto any point on Earth and do just as much damage, if not more.

OK, first of all I don't follow your math. Warp isn't one of those powers that needs adjustment with Mastery, the generic rules work fine.

Q6 => 6 succ.

Warp 6 + Perception 5 => 11 * 0.4 => 4.4

Mega-Perception 6 => 6 * 0.9 => 5.4

Total => 16 succ (with rounding)

The power has Mastery so we double the EFFECT. Instead of each succ increasing the range by 10x it increases the range by 20x. The first succ is (I think, book not here) 2K (which is doubled to 4K). Call it 2K x 10^15 x 2^15.

That extra 2^15 works out to 32,768, or slightly more than +4 succ. So with Mastery we get roughly 4 extra succ with this configuration.

This is a bit odd, given how all of the Colony's attacks in the Trinity era come from outer space, when it could drop them all onto any point on Earth and do just as much damage, if not more.

Except that if he drops an army on the Earth as far as the Colony knows they'll get nuked right away. He remembers how his crew got ordered off the planet last time. And he's insane and fixed on the idea of taking over the space stuff first to isolate the planet.

It reads:

"except Teleportation, Warp <<or other instantaneous modes or movement powers gained as techniques>>"

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not:

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"except teleportaion, warp or other instantaneous modes or <<movement powers gained as techniques.>>"

,,

A better and more clear way to have worded it IMHO would have been. "except instantaneous movement powers including those bought as suite techniques."

Sorry SL, I'm with Null on this. AFAICT You can't use Enhanced movement on suite powers. You also can't use it on Warp, etc.

RE: Suite powers vs. Q-Bolt or whatever

Apples and Oranges. Suite powers offer a lot more flexibility in exchange for less power. If I have 5 dots in EM:Fire, I do NOT have the equiv of 5 medium powers, I have as many powers as I can think of. A building is burning down, my mastered powers (Storm, Flight, Bolt, Sphere, Shaping) can't do anything... so I used an unmastered technique (Decrease) and simply put the fire out. Try that with Q-Bolt.

RE: Hypermovement in space

IMHO, Null's right, 500kph per dot is the limit. H-movement isn't built for space travel... although if someone wanted to add an extra which allowed it I wouldn't mind.

[Jenacis]

Minor addition which has probably been mentioned - the Transmit power doesn't transport you the same distance that teleport and warp do. While the distance possible through those powers is calculated by successes rolled(And would only be capped by the maximum number of successes you could possibly achieve) Transmit's distances are calculated by your dots in the power. Each dots gives you a maximum distance of (dot x*10) x 2 kilometers. At 5 dots in the power, you can move 20,000 kilometers. It's *not possible* to move more unless you buy more dots in the power.

I personally feel that transmit is a bogus level 2 power. It's basically teleport with all sorts of restrictions placed on it - distance possible, areas reachable, convenience, TIME spent in transit - I would probably change it to a level 1 ability.

[BlueNinja]

I personally feel that transmit is a bogus level 2 power. It's basically teleport with all sorts of restrictions placed on it - distance possible, areas reachable, convenience, TIME spent in transit - I would probably change it to a level 1 ability.

It's not even with Teleport, true. But it seems fairly well compared to Level 2 powers like Boost or Holo.

Besides, you just take Transmit and trade 1 point Strength of range (treat the power as one level higher for the distance) for a 1 point weakness of Dice pool.

[Alex Green]

It's basically teleport with all sorts of restrictions placed on it - distance possible, areas reachable, convenience, TIME spent in transit...

Untrue. Transmit has a HUGE aspect that teleport simply can't touch. Transmit doesn't need a target. With teleport you have to have some idea where you are going. You can't just say "I port to Joe" if you have no idea where Joe is. With Transmit, you can do that as long as he is in range, and the range is impressive. That's insanely over the top useful for a character built to take advantage of it.

Example: "The Tracker" is sent to kill someone. That person is hiding in a unknown building in an unknown city. "The Tracker" doesn't know, or even have a clue, where he is... but that doesn't slow him down. He can transmit from one shadow to another, and in 5 minutes he's found the shadow he wants and is upon his target.

The only thing that even comes close to this is the (Telepathy + Teleport+Safe Teleport) combo, and even that only works against people and gets shut down by Psi-Shield.

[Jenacis]

Untrue. Transmit has a HUGE aspect that teleport simply can't touch. Transmit doesn't need a target. With teleport you have to have some idea where you are going. You can't just say "I port to Joe" if you have no idea where Joe is. With Transmit, you can do that as long as he is in range, and the range is impressive. That's insanely over the top useful for a character built to take advantage of it.

I thought that through, and while it does make sense, there's something not quite right about it. I think it's the fact that the system you used has(fairly, yes) a sort of built in tracking system. I tried coming up with counter arguments as to why that doesn't fit the power, but I gotta concede that it does. Rats ::happy Oh well, yay for learning something new.

[Nullifier]

I just read that the some scientists are now questioning the constance of the speed of light. They are now saying that it has measurable slowed since thie big bang. In other words, don't get to attached to anything...the world was flat once ya know.

I'd be willing to bet that has something to do with the continual and accelerating expansion of the universe, but that's all just speculation. ::rolleyes The world is still flat, Skylion. It's space that's curved. ::tongue ::wink ::biggrin

[Nullifier]

Untrue. Transmit has a HUGE aspect that teleport simply can't touch. Transmit doesn't need a target. With teleport you have to have some idea where you are going. You can't just say "I port to Joe" if you have no idea where Joe is. With Transmit, you can do that as long as he is in range, and the range is impressive. That's insanely over the top useful for a character built to take advantage of it.

That's not strictly true, Alex.

"Unlike Teleport, there is no chance of missing the target..."

Aberrant: Project Utopia p. 142

So there has to be a target, you have to know where you're going. As long as you meet the conditions for the Transmit power (depending on which, if any extras it has), you'll get there, but you do have to have a physical location, just as with Teleport. It just means you don't have to be familiar with the location, you don't have to know what it looks like or have been there in the past, or anything like that. You can't desinate non-physical locations as your target, though, just like Teleport.

Also, if you look at the chart on the same page, level, not successes determines distance of transport through the substance out of combat, with the successes determining the speed of the transport, meaning that it's effectively maxed in pseed at 400,000 kilometers/turn at Q10, mastery 3, which isn't too shabby at about 44.425% of the speed of light, but it's a lot slower than the FTL velocities possible with Teleport and Warp at Q5 or even below.

[Alex Green]

My bad. I should have said it "auto-targets with respect to location".

So there has to be a target, you have to know where you're going.

There has to be a target, but that's not the same as needing to know where it is.

With Teleport, you can 'only' move from point A to point B (that's close to a quote BTW). They go over that point and bring up that issue again and again. If you can't see the location (not target) where you are going you are teleporting "blind", etc.

With Transmit you just need a target. Nowhere does it say or imply that you have to know where the target is. "Joe's shadow" is a target. "A reachable App=5 female ages 19 to 25" is a target. "A room in that building where there isn't anyone else" is a target.

Note that in most of those cases the power could simply fail if there is no target within range, the target doesn't exist, or if there is no medium within range (the extras help).

[Nullifier]

You're wrong, Alex. ::brick I'll try to explain why one more time. Transmit is a way of traveling up to a certain distance in a certain amount of time through a certain medium. Transmit allows you to travel at a pretty good speed, but you still have to designate the direction you're traveling in, just like any other form of fast travel. There's nothing in the power description that indicates that you can merely designate any random thing as a target and if it's within range the power will take you there. All the power allows you to do according to the description is travel quickly through some medium or another, nothing more. Your argument that there's nothing in the description that says it doesn't work the way you think it does is specious. The reason that there's no danger of missing your target with Trasmit is because with Transmit you're actually traveling through the entire distance to where ever you're going, instead of blindly jumping from one place to another, giving the character using the power time to see where they're going rather than just suddenly appearing there.

Unless you can quote me some text actually saying that the power allows you to target anything and if it's within the radius the power will take you there even if you have no idea where that thing is there's no way you'll ever convince me that that's the way the power is intended to function, because that'd make it more powerful than the level 4 power Quantum Awareness, let alone a level 2 power. In fact, there's no power in the game that can do what you're claiming Transmit is capable of: targeting anything you can think of that's within the power's range without actually knowing where the target is. Telepathy is the only thing that comes close to that type of thing, and it's limited to people.

Anywho, I think I've made my point. You're free to disagree with me 'bout this, but I'm done talking 'bout it, 'cause it's silly. ::brick ::tongue ::ultracool ::biggrin

[SkyLion]

So the question is...using transmit as Anteus...could he go from 1 root system to another that wasn't touching or does it need to be continuously touching roots.... I think the example lists shadows also and transmiting through shadows would definitly be a case for "not touching" . This of course is where it seems telport like and I think may be at the crux of the confusion between nuliifers and alexs arguments. (?)

[Alex Green]

Page 226, Core book.

Teleport:…

Effect: Allows character to move without passing through the intervening space.

Description: Teleport is an advanced form of movement in which a nova does not cross through the intervening space. Instead she simply “disappears” at Point A and “reappears” at her desired destination of Point B…

If a character is unable to see her destination… she is “teleporting blind” and may miss her destination…

Page 141-2, AB: PU

Transmit:…

Effect: Allows the character nearly instantaneous transport via a chosen medium.

Description: …may travel through a medium…unlike Teleport there is no chance of missing the target, but the nova must have an unbroken line of the chosen medium between himself and his destination…

Things to note:

1) Transmit isn’t instantaneous unless you score really, really well. I.e. this is why it takes 10 minutes to move 2km, you have to figure out how to get there.

2) With Teleport you are moving to “Point B”, and if you don’t know where it is, that’s a problem. With Transmit you simply have a “target” and after that you have “movement through a chosen medium with no chance of failure”. Notice that target not stated to be a place, everything in Transmit is about the medium.

3) Even their example strongly implied this, i.e. in theory Anteus could have moved to anywhere in the root system he used. However he obviously hadn’t visited every spot in that system.

Although there are similarities, Transmit is NOT a version of Teleport. It also isn’t a version of Flight (which is another movement power that sends you through a medium, i.e. Air). It’s sort of a combination of both.

I think no one would have problems with someone using flight to look around for an App=5 babe. Well, you can do the same thing with Transmit. You can zoom around in your chosen medium and check things out.

[Alex Green]

I think I'd better expand on this;

This is a power subject to abuse and the ST will have to keep track to make sure that the "targets" are legal and in theme for the power purchased. Moving to a specific target is probably legal, moving to a target that is just next to something that you want often won't be (how would you tell?)

For example: If you want to move from one mirror to another (assuming you have that extra), that's fine. If you want to move to a mirror that has the reflection of someone you are looking for, that's still fine. If you want to move to a mirror that is in the room next to the person you are looking for, or into the mirror "closest" to the person you are looking for, then I don't see how that could work without more information. You'd have access to mirrors, not to other things.

That's why "air" isn't chooseable as a medium, everything is in contact with the air so you could then find and move anywhere.

Further, this power *should* have *some* advantages over Teleport. Teleport already has "Safe Blind", and in comparison Transmit is extremely limited in range, duration, and even accessable location. Actually in all three of those catagories Transmit is delibrately, horribly, limited (which raises the question of why it's so limited). If all it lets you do is move to known locations, then you might as well just buy T-Port and stack on the limitations. Let the power do what the power says it can do, without giving it the limitations and weaknesses impossed on an unrealated power.

[Finbar]

[sorry for the necromancy; I've been away a bit and thought there was a lot of weirdness that I could comment on...]

1) Transmit & Targeting: Um...no. I can see a specific LOCATION targeted; I can't see a specific person targeted. That would get abusive, even though it could be fun. Also, note that mirrors, et al, makes it a L3 power (Discontinuity is an extra for the power). Dang...I can't find my Utopian book...)

2) Max. Speed of Hypermovement: Enhanced Movement applies to Hypermovement (corebook, pg 158), and multiuplies it at (Mega-Dex+1) (like other movement abilities). OK, assuming a cap of 5 on Mega-stats and 10 on powers, with a base 500kph, that means that Hypermovement 10 with Enhanced Movement, means that your top speed is ((10x500)x6=) 30,000kph.

Applying Mastery I, II, and III (at x2, x5, and x20 respectively), this means that max speeds are 60K, 150K, and 600K kph respectively, thus putting the max speed at .00056 the speed of light (1,080,000K kph, for comparison). Thus making Alpha Centauri, at a whole 4 light years away, take about 7143 years to accomplish. Even allowing Mega-Dex to 10 doesn't help here...

If it helps...

FR

[BlueNinja]

2) Max. Speed of Hypermovement: <snip math stuff>

Yeah, I did all of those calculations. Which is why I started the whole thread in the first place, actually.

[Finbar]

Sorry....just wanted to look at the numbers involved...

FR

[Alex Green]

1) Transmit & Targeting: Um...no. I can see a specific LOCATION targeted; I can't see a specific person targeted. That would get abusive, even though it could be fun. Also, note that mirrors, et al, makes it a L3 power (Discontinuity is an extra for the power). Dang...I can't find my Utopian book...)

The problems with only allowing "Locations" is several fold, even ignoring that this isn't what the power says.

1) We already have Teleport. This power has...

a) A (much) shorter range

A (much) longer time of transmission

c) The inability to function to many/most locations within that range. How many places don't have mirrors? And Mirrors would make this a level 3 power, comparible to Teleport's "Safe Blind Port" L3.

So... if we aren't going to give it a superior targeting ability, what should transmit's advantage be over Teleport?

[Finbar]

Heh. Found it.

1) There's nothing that says you can target a person; I definitely agree with the group that wants to see you link to some sort of clairaudience in order to go to a specific person, rather than a target location. Also, I don't see a transmitter having the ability to "peek" any more than a teleporter could, but you could add it as an extra.

2) Although the range isn't as great, Transmit does have no miss chance. Also, it has more flavor to it than Teleport, making it an interesting addition just for that. Of course, if you do think that Transmit is still a relatively weak power compared to Teleport, then you could add +1 die/dot of Transmit to Intimidate (you've got to admit; seeing someone oozing out of the shadows themselves has got to be scary!).

3) FTL: Although it is a cheat, you can string together some teleports to simulate FTL if you really feel the need...

FR

[Alex Green]

1) Transmit & Targeting: Um...no. I can see a specific LOCATION targeted; I can't see a specific person targeted. That would get abusive, even though it could be fun. Also, note that mirrors, et al, makes it a L3 power (Discontinuity is an extra for the power). Dang...I can't find my Utopian book...)

OK, let's talk about Mirrors for a moment.

How is this power supposed to function if you can only target "locations", but you can only actually go to mirrors?

The only solution I can see is if it can actually target mirrors.

[metaphysician]

Well you are right about its limited usefulness...I beleive there have been other threads discussing the seeming divide betwen what the mechanics allow and what the canon source material seems to indicate Novas do "as a matter of routine." ie outpacing fighter jets.

,,

However I believe you misunderstood that sentance from the APG. It reads "except Teleportation, Warp or other instantaneous modes or movement powers gained as techniques. So flight would be an acceptable technique but not t-port or transmit as a technique (say, from bodymorph energy or similar.)

,,

Which brings me to another point.... Why oh Why would I want most of the suite powers anyway...for the most part they suck! For example, I have a gravity manipulator. Why would I pay the cost for a dot in the level three power of gravity control and take the power gravitokinesis??? Its only half as effective as just paying for the level 2 power, Telekinesis and defining it as a gravity based phenomena.

,,

Sigh...I love the game but the more I play the more these things jump out at me. Their intentions were noble but the execution remains problematic...they should have just taken a tip from the hero system and presented all their powers in generic form and left the special effects to the player. Yes I know they did this for the most part, say with Q-bolt, but the suite powers should have been listed separately as examples, with the idea of a suite being presented as a Hero-system like "power framework." Great ideas...sloppy execution.

,,

Not that its stopped anybody from playing Rifts either... ::wacko

,,,,

(Interestingly enough, my group has solved ALL of Rifts mechanics problems while leaving the setting intact...elegantly and in one fell swoop. Let me know if anyone is interested and I'll start a thread...)

Easy: flexibility. When you purchase, say, four dots of Gravity Control, yeah, the individual Blast and Shield and Flight and Kinesis techniques are inferior to QBolt and Force Field and Flight and TK. . . but you now have all four of those tricks, at the four dot level. Plus any other unpurchased techniques or entirely new tricks available at extra difficulty.

Though, if I were GMing, I'd allow a player who subsequently bought the individual power equivalent of a technique slot up to an equal or exceeding level of effect to "trade out" that technique for another one. No sense having Gravitic Blast if you also have a Q-Bolt, for instance.

[metaphysician]

Btw, if your Q6 or higher, you can take Transmit with extras Broadband, Mastery, and Reduce Quantum. This allows you to do the Transmitting for zero cost, and is probably the best way to represent actual lightspeed+ travel.

Re: Warp and Mastery, the way I read the mastery rules, well, seems all the examples where there are sux to multiply, it multiplies the sux.