Aberrant RPG - Aggro claws

[SkyLion]

Again, in abby, NOTHING natural does Agg damage. Sharp teeth doesn't even start.

Only within certain limits. Aggravated attacks are defined to involve ‘total tissue destruction’. If you slap a normal with 8 levels of Agg damage there should be very little left; a puddle of goo, a pile of ash, a red mist, or even nothing. A simple knife or bullet doesn’t even start to meet that definition unless you are swinging around neutronium or a black hole or something similar. In nature, NOTHING, including radiation, does agg damage.

I guess we just agree to disagree here. I (and my WoD groups) have always thought werewolves do damage not just because their claws are supernaturally sharp but also supernaturally strong. They do things like rip people in half and decapitate or dismember them...In other words agg damage can be done that doesn't "melt" or "disintegrate a target. Disintigration is a disintegration effect. Claws is a cutting/ripping effect. Disintegration is a direct power attack. Claws are really closer to a body mod (but again can be defined as a lightsaber or whatever so please dont flame me. ::glare ) that you can use to attack someone by being skilled in hand to hand. This is another thing to consider. To be really great with Q-Bolt or Disintegration you just need a high dex and/or power rating. To be a badass with claws not only do you have to buy up your power and your dex but also your combat skill....

[Nullifier]

If you don't have the means to soak it, true. But if you've got the Invuln, then the body builder with agg claws should have a better chance of breaking your soak than the paraplegic with agg claws.

It's because of the nature of the attack when it's agg. The nature of agg attacks is that the attack itself is destructive, but not the force behind the attack. That's just the way anything that's agg has to work because it's an all or nothing kind of thing; either the attack destroys whatever it touches, or it doesn't. Pushing harder doesn't help with that. That's the fundamental breakdown in communication we're suffering. Tissue-destruction attacks don't work better if you hit harder with them, they either work, or they're harmless. Anything I can thing of that destroys tissue on contact wouldn't make an effective bludgeoning tool, either because it's too diffuse, too compact, or too britle, and the damage done is from the stuff itself and its properties, not from the force with which it comes in contact with its target, which compared to the severity of the damage it inflicts is negligible even at mega-str 5.

Listen do what you want, the golden rule, remember? Neither you nor Skylion has answered my question about the practicality of the situation. If you can do that, I'll stop arguing with you.

[SkyLion]

Again, I don't think it has to be tissue destruction (that is the disintegration power see my post above). As one alternative example, a vibro blade can cut through most anything that its frequency will work on and in every game I have ever seen vibro blades in, they work better if you are stronger.

I must have missed the practicality argument and couldn't find it by searching. Care to refresh our memories?

[BlueNinja]

Neither you nor Skylion has answered my question about the practicality of the situation. If you can do that, I'll stop arguing with you.

Actually, the way you phrased your argument, I agree with M-Str not applying, and I'm torn over regular strength. I see your point, but part of me is still going "But it still just doesn't fit."

Long before I knew about this errata, I wrote up a character who had agg claws, that basically were simply the force of his blow - hitting a person turned bones into toothpicks, organs into mush, but it wasn't anything like a disintegration blow. For that, adding base strength is perfectly in theme (since that is the agg), while the lightsaber person is a different thematic effect, and doesn't fit with adding base strength to the damage. (Of course, Grog took the part of Sir Not-Appearing-In-This-Game quite a while ago. ::laugh )

So, what about combat moves that add to damage? After all, a standard punch (the 'through the wall') does +2 damage on a regular hit. If a nova with agg claws does that, you get the hole in the wall. If they do something like a deliberate 'glancing' shot (something that, without the agg claws would just scrape up the side of their hand, but with the agg claws should leave a lovely long gouge in the wall) should do more damage.

[SkyLion]

BN, It seems like the ideas are fairly polarized at this point. Why not post up your thoughts on what you feel is balanced, at least with regards to games you run?

[Alex Green]

SkyLion:... I (and my WoD groups) have always thought werewolves do damage not just because their claws are supernaturally sharp but also supernaturally strong. They do things like rip people in half and decapitate or dismember them...In other words agg damage can be done that doesn't "melt" or "disintegrate a target.

Of course it can, and it does, but that's in WOD. In abby all of those would be lethal effects.

SkyLion: Again, I don't think it has to be tissue destruction (that is the disintegration power see my post above). As one alternative example, a vibro blade can cut through most anything that its frequency will work on and in every game I have ever seen vibro blades in, they work better if you are stronger.

I must have missed the practicality argument and couldn't find it by searching. Care to refresh our memories?

Core book, Page 253. Aggravated Damage: "A few particularly virulent nova attacks inflict aggravated damage. Aggravated damage represents disintegration, flesh-eating viruses, molecular disruption or some other form of complete tissue destruction."

Core book, Page 255 "...genetically engineered viruses can be more devastating, even inflicting lethal damage." And then core book, Page 257, talks about how if you are exposed to enough radiation, you can even suffer lethal damage. And lots of other sources of damage are considered. Nothing gets worse than lethal unless you have an abby in there somewhere.

In abby that vibro blade would be Armor Piercing lethal at best. In WOD it could be Aggravated because Vampires wouldn't regenerate easily from it.

[SkyLion]

I fully see your point Alex, its just that I don't see eye to eye on the Aberrant core description of Agg that you quoted...must be the years of WoDing...

[Ayre el KaBeer]

In Wod Agg is determined by the difficulty to repair the damage and if it is generated by a supernatural means.

Supernatural: Vamp/Wolf claws.

Difficult to heal: Fire/chainsaw/pointblank shotgun blast.

In Trinityverse. Agg can only be generated by a Nova and is considerred the most distructive to other nova's, as damaging anything but a nova will cause it to have to same end result on the target as if it were lethal. Even plasma weaponry will simply dish out lethal damage.

Agg's rarity is what makes it so dangerous, it provides another form of attack for when all else fails. Only a few nova's have aggrivated attacks and a similar number should have a deffense for it, negating the need for the tremendous amounts of damage done by standard attacks.

If agg claws were done using wod style rulings then no one in their right mind wouldn't take the hardbody enhancement (at least), agg claws would be every brawlers lethal weapon option all they'll need is 3NP in character creation. If you want to pull off a similar effect to that in werewolf with claws, forget agg altogether and read the armour piercing extra.

[SkyLion]

The problem is the method of soaking it. In WoD, only vampires with fortitude (very similar to mega-stam) and werewolves (and possibly mages with prime magick) can soak it. Most things die but werewolves tend to have high soak also and can regenerate (though not fire or silver.) In WoD, fire is agg too I believe.

The problem that BN and I are trying to get to the bottom of is this:

The way the soak rules are for agg, then those who have hardbody or impervious get their lethal soak (which among Novas can be ungodly high) against it, rendering a smaller or nerfed damage useless in that case. What we need is that middle ground.

I agree that those who have it and those who can defend it should be rare and its up to the ST to make this so. However enemies who can soak large amounts of lethal and have agg defenses are quickly invulnerable. The equalizing facet that you mentioned then goes away. Armor piercing would work against hardbody but even then half soak could still be enough against the nerfed system. Impervious negates armor piercing as well. Then again, perhaps those powers are meant to create invulnerable characters (like "Ironskin" Andy). Better hope you have a mental attack...(and in Andy's case even that probably wouldn't be enough).

Bottom line is this.

Without special defenses, anyone with decent agg claws will in fact kill most people immediatly, so who cares if the strength adds? The damage is still overwhelming.

If agg is meant to be the equalizer against otherwise impossibly high lethal soaks, then it needs to cause damage that will be comparable in getting through that (hardbody/imperv) defense as would novas duking it out with just lethal attacks and defenses.

[Ayre el KaBeer]

WOD: As I posted above, fire is agg, also agg can be soaked by armour for one attack then the armour is rendered useless.

"who cares" Umm most gm's care, agg like AP is an advantage that one character has that most others don't. Agg is balanced by it's "low" (I'd say moderate) damage output, AP is balanced by supersoak characters (common in aberrant) and for it to be truelly effective it relies on a huge supporting dice pool forcing points away from the rest of the character.

Just look at it in scale, agg, lethal or bashing it will only take 7 levels to drop anyone without the right deffenses, beit aeonverse or Wod. Any attack dealing 7 HL's would be seen as powerfull, for a guy to aim his pinky and pull off a shot with the same lethality as an assualt riffle to be seen as weak is plain wrong. Aberrant attacks are all overkill, it just so happens that so are abberant deffenses, these people have cyclotrons in their heads. Agg even has some scientific basis in aeon where it's almost purely mystical in wod, andm though I agree the mechanics of agg claws could be oh so much better, (so should immolate imho but that's another story) they suffice. In my games agg claws are using the original rules, I agree that the errata rules are nurfed, but at the same time my players have been told, if the rare powers get abused then they will get the same treatment in kind from the npc's.

In the end balance is king, some have argued that hardbody is underpowered as the gm can say that the attack totaly bypasses the forcefield and armour soak before being applied to only the stam/mega-stam soak. And as it's stated the gm is well within his/her rights to do that depending on how the pc's powers are described, it's how I do it for forcefeiled and ff style powers (they keep their Armour power stats though).

Sorry for rambling on people. ::wink

[SkyLion]

I never buy agg unless I can soak it...karma can be a beeyotch!

[Alex Green]

Agg's rarity is what makes it so dangerous, it provides another form of attack for when all else fails. Only a few novas have aggravated attacks and a similar number should have a defense for it, negating the need for the tremendous amounts of damage done by standard attacks.

If agg claws were done using wod style rulings then no one in their right mind wouldn't take the hardbody enhancement (at least), agg claws would be every brawlers lethal weapon option all they'll need is 3NP in character creation. If you want to pull off a similar effect to that in werewolf with claws, forget agg altogether and read the armour piercing extra.

Exactly.

The way the soak rules are for agg, then those who have hardbody or impervious get their lethal soak (which among Novas can be ungodly high) against it, rendering a smaller or nerfed damage useless in that case. What we need is that middle ground.

I agree that those who have it and those who can defend it should be rare and its up to the ST to make this so. However enemies who can soak large amounts of lethal and have agg defenses are quickly invulnerable. The equalizing facet that you mentioned then goes away. Armor piercing would work against hardbody but even then half soak could still be enough against the nerfed system. Impervious negates armor piercing as well. Then again, perhaps those powers are meant to create invulnerable characters (like "Ironskin" Andy). Better hope you have a mental attack...(and in Andy's case even that probably wouldn't be enough).

What you have is a solution in search of a problem. BN is the ST. If he doesn’t want 50 soak novas who are also immune to Agg damage then all he has to do is not introduce them. I don’t think any of the PCs currently fall into this category, so he could also either stop people from buying Hardbody or 50 soaks.

Without special defenses, anyone with decent agg claws will in fact kill most people immediatly, so who cares if the strength adds? The damage is still overwhelming.

If agg is meant to be the equalizer against otherwise impossibly high lethal soaks, then it needs to cause damage that will be comparable in getting through that (hardbody/imperv) defense as would novas duking it out with just lethal attacks and defenses.

What you are saying is that hardbody and impervious should be banned. If you do that, then everyone would want to buy Agg attacks.

And I don’t agree that Claws+Agg should be able to kill people with one hit. Without the errata it’s pretty easy to make Claws+Agg+Area (Q-min 1) the equal of Disintegration+Area (Q-min 6). It’s also easy to make one dot of Claws+Agg the equal of 5 dots of Immolate+Agg.

Claws+Agg is easy to get (Q-min 1), so it shouldn’t be doing much Agg damage. If you want to kill people with one hit you should be getting Disintegration (which does even more damage than Q-Bolt+Agg).

[Alex Green]

What you are saying is that hardbody and impervious should be banned. If you do that, then everyone would want to buy Agg attacks.

I put that poorly.

Hardbody protects against Agg attacks (to the extent that you have lethal soak).

If it doesn't fully protect against Agg, then what is it supposed to be doing?

And if there is *no* protection against Agg attacks, then won't everyone want one?

[SkyLion]

Hmmmm....

Yeah, I think Im just used to playing a werewolf! (A superstrong one with Earthquake as a personal totem...) 1 hit kills pretty much all the time...

I didn't mean to ban hardbody or impervious. What I meant was that either you dont have one of those and agg gets you quick (even if its not instant) or you do and then even a small ammount of lethal soak makes you immune to agg. This is actually more of a problem with impervious force field but I can see why you would want that to be the burly defense.

To repeat something I said before, perhaps there should be a Q-min for buying agg. Or perhaps not, just a thought.

I have enjoyed this debate actually, but Ive said really everything I think. You all have made excellent points and I can see the case for separating Abbie and WoD.

(However, some in my RL group want to blend the two, by having vampires embrace Novas for instance (cheeser) and have aliens (from the movie aliens) come to Rifts and attach Praetorian Facehuggers onto great horned dragons, or godlings, or..well you get the idea... ::sad )

Carry-on...

[BlueNinja]

(However, some in my RL group want to blend the two, by having vampires embrace Novas for instance (cheeser) and have aliens (from the movie aliens) come to Rifts and attach Praetorian Facehuggers onto great horned dragons, or godlings, or..well you get the idea... ::sad )

Dragon 1: "What's wrong?"

Dragon2: "I woke up with this weird thing on my face, and now I have this horrible heartburn."

Dragon 1: "That sucks."

Dragon 2: "Yep."

Baby alien: "I need sharper teeth!"

[SkyLion]

..... ::blink

Actually the way transbreeds work, they take on the properties (and form) of the host. The guy in question wants to have supernatural MDC, supernaturally strong, acid breathing flying dragon-aliens.

This is also the same guy who wanted a praetorian alien with the Power Cosmic.....sheesh...

[Alex Green]

...I can see the case for separating Abbie and WoD.

(However, some in my RL group want to blend the two, by having vampires embrace Novas for instance (cheeser) and have aliens (from the movie aliens) come to Rifts and attach Praetorian Facehuggers onto great horned dragons, or godlings, or..well you get the idea... ::sad )

I've thought about this. The idea actually has some potential as long as everyone is allowed to play to their strengths (maybe it's new thread time).

RE: Vampire Novas

Probably can't be done.

1) Novas are immune to disease, this probably includes the vampire virus.

2) Nova blood presumably has quantum in it. Quantum hits non-novas like hard radiation.

3) Nova powers might be a form of reality alteration by WOD standards (i.e. they are a varient of mage). If memory serves Mages can't become vampires without giving up their powers.

[SkyLion]

Except that Vampirism in WoD isnt a virus. It has to do with draining the host of blood (which converts to vitae in their bodies) To embrace the soon-to-be dead victim, the vampire then feeds them some of their vitae infusing the undead corpse with a weaker portion of Caines essesence. My argument against it was that technically vampires are their vitae, essentially magical blood. Being brain dead makes it hard to have a node, but the counter-argument was that vampires can learn to do almost anything with the blood (ie Thaumaturgy, Necromancy, Protean etc...) and that they could easily learn to use it.

Also vampires are immune to hard radiation (being corpses)

Nova powers work within the RL possibilities of manipulating forces on the quantum level (stars do it) so it wouldn't be paradoxical a la Mage. In WoD, things that have powers as part of their nature (yes for werewolves...they are born that way. No for mages, they "awaken" to knowledge/skill) are allowed to operate.

Personally I wouldn't run this game (or probably even play in one) because I like the settings fine as distint. I dont need WoD angst messing up my super-powered fantasies...If I need angst I'll just go find Sophia Rosseau and take on Project Proteus...

[Alex Green]

Except that Vampirism in WoD isnt a virus. It has to do with draining the host of blood (which converts to vitae in their bodies) To embrace the soon-to-be dead victim, the vampire then feeds them some of their vitae infusing the undead corpse with a weaker portion of Caines essesence. My argument against it was that technically vampires are their vitae, essentially magical blood. Being brain dead makes it hard to have a node, but the counter-argument was that vampires can learn to do almost anything with the blood (ie Thaumaturgy, Necromancy, Protean etc...) and that they could easily learn to use it.

RE: Vitae

Giving it a cool new name doesn't change the problem that novas are probably immune. Their system would fight it. If their immunity is overcome and/or removed, then it seems extremely likely they wouldn't be novas when the process was through.

RE: Nodes

It isn't just their nodes, the entire nova system is built around dealing with quantum.

Also vampires are immune to hard radiation (being corpses)

They take lots of nasty damage from both fire and sunlight. This doesn't suggest immunity to quantum and/or hard radiation. Assuming for a moment that they aren't immune, this probably holds problems both for their processing and their post-existence functioning.

Nova powers work within the RL possibilities of manipulating forces on the quantum level (stars do it) so it wouldn't be paradoxical a la Mage. In WoD, things that have powers as part of their nature (yes for werewolves...they are born that way. No for mages, they "awaken" to knowledge/skill) are allowed to operate.

Personally I wouldn't run this game (or probably even play in one) because I like the settings fine as distint. I dont need WoD angst messing up my super-powered fantasies...If I need angst I'll just go find Sophia Rosseau and take on Project Proteus...

The funny part is that novas presumably wouldn't have angst. Their big thing is taint (and insanity & sterility). And other than a few problems with conversion they'd convert pretty well and it'd be interesting. Vampires are suped up corpses. Novas are demigods.

Vampires and the others are used to

1) Being out numbered by humanity.

2) Being more powerful than humans.

3) Controlling or having influence over many of the levers of society.

4) Acting in secret.

5) They have big weaknesses.

6) Dealing with 'clans', i.e. other schools of supers with set powers.

Introduce novas into the WOD and the Vamps have to deal with a 'clan' who turns most of the rules on their heads.

1) Novas are fewer but presumably more powerful than vampires.

2) They act mostly in public.

3) Mostly they don't have big weaknesses.

So do the Vamps try to enslave novas? Make the public turn against them? Hide their existence? Try to exterminate them?

[SkyLion]

RE: Vitae

Giving it a cool new name doesn't change the problem that novas are probably immune. Their system would fight it. If their immunity is overcome and/or removed, then it seems extremely likely they wouldn't be novas when the process was through.

RE: Nodes

It isn't just their nodes, the entire nova system is built around dealing with quantum.

They take lots of nasty damage from both fire and sunlight. This doesn't suggest immunity to quantum and/or hard radiation. Assuming for a moment that they aren't immune, this probably holds problems both for their processing and their post-existence functioning.

The funny part is that novas presumably wouldn't have angst. Their big thing is taint (and insanity & sterility). And other than a few problems with conversion they'd convert pretty well and it'd be interesting. Vampires are suped up corpses. Novas are demigods.

Vampires and the others are used to

1) Being out numbered by humanity.

2) Being more powerful than humans.

3) Controlling or having influence over many of the levers of society.

4) Acting in secret.

5) They have big weaknesses.

6) Dealing with 'clans', i.e. other schools of supers with set powers.

Introduce novas into the WOD and the Vamps have to deal with a 'clan' who turns most of the rules on their heads.

1) Novas are fewer but presumably more powerful than vampires.

2) They act mostly in public.

3) Mostly they don't have big weaknesses.

So do the Vamps try to enslave novas? Make the public turn against them? Hide their existence? Try to exterminate them?

How is an elder vampire not a demigod? Not to mention methuselahs...

And vampires are vulnerable *only* to fire and sunlight (and other supernatural beings) because of the properties of the cainite curse. fire burns the corpse, sunlight destroys the magic holding the curse together.

It is telling that the Vampire book doesn't even address radiation as a source of injury...

Again, vitae as a concept is supernatural, not a virus. its not a cool new name, its a whole other level of thinking of things. Werewolves have part of their souls woven into the gaian oversoul so they have a chance of not being embraced (again, NOT a virus, but a supernatural hijacking of essence). If not they become abominations and lose their spirit gifts (which come from the oversoul)

As far as angst I was merely reffering to the pathos-ridden-woe-is-me-Im-a-monster-and-am-cursed-to monstrosity WoD setting...

And anyway, Divis-Mal would make short work of them with Quantum mastered Inferno... ::devil

[Nullifier]

Um. I'll weigh in, having actually played in a cross universe game where my mage character became a nova as well.

Sure, o.k., a vampire could embrace a nova, if they could actually successfully attack and drain one to the point of death, that is. However, the result would just be a vampire. A nova's node is a living organ. Vampires are dead, and so are all their organs, including a nova's node. No living node, no nova, it's that simple.

However, there's no reason that a nova taken to the WoD couldn't awaken as a mage, and no reason why a mage couldn't erupt as a nova given the right conditions.

[Alex Green]

How is an elder vampire not a demigod? Not to mention methuselahs...

They are. But so are some of the ‘fresh-out-of-the-box’ novas.

And vampires are vulnerable *only* to fire and sunlight (and other supernatural beings) because of the properties of the cainite curse. fire burns the corpse, sunlight destroys the magic holding the curse together. It is telling that the Vampire book doesn't even address radiation as a source of injury... Again, vitae as a concept is supernatural, not a virus. its not a cool new name, its a whole other level of thinking of things.

Sure, but you still have to figure out how they would interact, and for that we look at how they both interact with the world in common. Something to keep in mind is that Vampires don’t understand themselves. Their origins are lost in the mists (or outright lies) of time and their Vampiric elders. Even worse, said Vampiric elders didn’t have the scientific method to help them organize things. As far as theories go, “It’s magic” (even if true) doesn’t lend itself to making predictions, it’s really another way of saying, ‘we don’t understand it’. But we can and IMHO should compare their effects to the ‘real’ world and make reasonable guesses as to how they would interact.

We know Vampires, or the magic behind them, makes them vulnerable to sunlight.

We know Vampires, or the magic behind them, makes them vulnerable to fire.

We could assume that those are the *only* energy types they are vulnerable to… but…

Thought Experiment: I’m in the army and I send a guy across a field, and the first step he makes hits a land mind and it blows up. Ditto the second guy on the second step. From this evidence, I shouldn’t assume those are the only two landmines in the field.

Radiation isn’t covered because in the setting it’s never going to come up. It’s hard to carry around bricks of uranium and the vacuum of space isn’t available. But as far as energies go, Radiation tends to be worse than sunlight and/or fire. Chances are good Vampires aren’t immune. (It is even possible that it’s the radiation in sunlight that they have problems with) Changing the subject slightly, it’s been a long time since I’ve read Vampire, is electricity bashing, lethal, or aggravated damage to Vamps?

Novas are immune to pretty near all poisons (even ones specifically built for them have difficulty and these kill outright baselines). Ditto diseases. Whatever Vitae is, it probably counts as one or the other. This implies that we won’t be seeing any Nova – Ghouls out there.

My suggestions for mixing the WOD & Novas are as follows.

In General:

1) Novas treat all WOD Aggravated effects (fire, claws, etc) as lethal effects.

2) Novas should be treated as magical entities when it is to their advantage.

3) All races should be allowed to have their usual strengths and weaknesses.

4) Damage scales and soak don’t need to be adjusted (yes, this means that Mega-Strength 1 is the same 5 levels of Potence).

5) Non-Dormed novas will usually show up as either not being human to enhanced senses, or being really, really odd humans.

6) Dormed novas can be detected only with a contested roll.

Specific Races:

A) Vampires

1) Novas treat vitae as a poison and get a normal resistance roll.

2) Novas can be blood bonded but they need to fail their roll three times (note Health or Adapt works normally)

3) Novas can’t become vampires and keep their powers.

4) The various mental powers (on both sides) work normally but this includes the defensive mental abilities.

5) Note that a 500 year old Vampire killing machine probably didn’t survive for 500 years by picking fights with other combat machines of unknown power.

Werewolves

1) Novas are immune to the delirium.

C) Hunters

1) Hunters’ immunity to mental influence includes nova social enhancements.

2) Hunters will sense Novas as somewhat less human than Mages.

D) Mages

1) Novas are immune to Paradox. Mages aren’t. This is true even if novas go public as their powers never quite look believable to the average man.

2) Whether or not novas should be considered unawakened should be left to the ST.

3) Mages will typically look human to a nova’s enhanced senses. They do not have nodes and do not use quantum.

4) Directly altering novas with magic should be difficult (i.e. turning their heart to lead should require over coming a resistance roll of some sort).

[SkyLion]

Im not at home, so you'll have to wait for some specific responses.

No offense but I dont think you understand the nature of Vitae...It is most definitly supernatural. As a vampire you are decended from biblical Caine (or possibly Lilith.) Werewolf and vampire claws/fangs most definitly do Agg damage.

,,

If you want to think of WoD creatures having some non-supernatural origin thats your prerogative, but its neither in the spirit nor the execution of what the setting is supposed to be..The umbra, faeries, Gaia, Celestines, the Triat etc. etc. etc...

[Alex Green]

...It is most definitly supernatural. As a vampire you are decended from biblical Caine (or possibly Lilith.) ...If you want to think of WoD creatures having some non-supernatural origin thats your prerogative, but its neither in the spirit nor the execution of what the setting is supposed to be..

I know it's supernatural, but our testing of it doesn't have to be.

You can't say, Only "X" does this kind of damage when we haven't tested "Y". Worse, Y is very similar to X (and is actually worse in many ways).

Let's go back in time to the time of Caine. How exactly did he know that sunlight was a bad thing? I'm going to assume his curse didn't tell him, so that leaves trial and error. Which then opens the question of "why is sunlight a bad thing". It undoes the magic? Incineration doesn't look to me like "undoing" and I'm deeply suspicious of the mindset that produced such concepts as “the world is flat”.

Werewolf and vampire claws/fangs most definitly do Agg damage.

Do they ignore soak on physical objects? Can a werewolf claw his way through a bank vault door in a few rounds? I really have no idea.

All I said was that novas treat WOD aggravated attacks as though they are lethal attacks. To put that in perspective, a really nasty fire attack (say a fire bolt strong enough to turn a tank into a puddle of slag), if used on a nova in abby-verse, would be a lethal attack.

(It’s also true that it’s been a very long time since I’ve spent much time in WOD, and I suspect my engineering background is showing up right about now. ::ohmy )

[SkyLion]

Let's go back in time to the time of Caine. How exactly did he know that sunlight was a bad thing? I'm going to assume his curse didn't tell him, so that leaves trial and error. Which then opens the question of "why is sunlight a bad thing". It undoes the magic? Incineration doesn't look to me like "undoing" and I'm deeply suspicious of the mindset that produced such concepts as "the world is flat".

,,

Some Antediluvians have ways of dealing with sunlight, most notably Ennoia (of the Gangrel) and the Tremere (not a literal antediluvian (pre-flood) but equal in power/generation from Caine)

,,

Caine himself doesn't share many of the weaknesses of his childer. In fact, he was cursed to never die.

,,

Do they ignore soak on physical objects? Can a werewolf claw his way through a bank vault door in a few rounds? I really have no idea.

,,

Yes. Easily.

[Nullifier]

Some Antediluvians have ways of dealing with sunlight, most notably Ennoia (of the Gangrel) and the Tremere (not a literal antediluvian (pre-flood) but equal in power/generation from Caine)

Caine himself doesn't share many of the weaknesses of his childer. In fact, he was cursed to never die.

O.k., um, yeah. The Ravnos antediluvian was most certainly destroyed by (focused, directed) sunlight, but only after a couple of neutron bombs and a lot of pounding on by the eastern vampire equivalet, some of whom are atually much more benign than the descendants of Caine. Caine's basically just a cursed Archmage. He was awakened and trained by Lilith after being cursed by god. Tremere's body was taken over by Salout, who had training from the eastern vampires and ate Tremere's soul after his soul was swallowed by Tremere. ::wacko

Beware the archmagi, don't piss off the eastern vampires, and never scare the Technocracy. ::cool ::ohmy

All that being said, the deal is this: in the WoD universe science is magic, while in the Aberrant/Trinity/A! universe, magic is science. In one universe the Truth is that magic exists and is the basis of the whole universe, in the other the Truth is that powerful scientific realities exist and redefine the universe from the one we are familiar with, making it into something different, but based upon these new sciences.

Novas have a chance of existing in the WoD because magic is unlimited and anything, even completely contradictory things, can be true. However, science is all about forces and forces are limited in their applications. For example: while a quantum 10 nova could in theory create a new universe in which the parameters of the WoD exist, he couldn't make over the universe of Aberrant to those parameters. In fact, he couldn't even remake a small portion of it that way, say just a single galaxy. Magic needs to be part of a universe from the start, otherwise it has no real way of existing.

...As for aggro werewolf claws, in the end, they're just supernaturally reinforced claws. They can't go through metal, especially not silver. Also, in the WoD fire and sunlight only do agg to vampires. No one else takes agg from fire, or sunlight.

I'll stop rambling now, have fun. ::biggrin

[SkyLion]

O.k., um, yeah. The Ravnos antediluvian was most certainly destroyed by (focused, directed) sunlight, but only after a couple of neutron bombs and a lot of pounding on by the eastern vampire equivalet, some of whom are atually much more benign than the descendants of Caine.

The way we have it in our group, the Ravnos only let them thing he got pounded. If you look at the Chimerstry level 9 discipline, it allows you to literally remake reality however you like. To the point of erasing someone out of existence, they had never been born or concieved or anything. The level 10 discipline is so much more powerful that it has been literally renamed "plot device" Between his mastery of Chimerstry and Auspex, the Ravnos Antediluvian could make the Kuei-Jin and the technocracy think they were fighting him but he could have been somewhere else entirely. Chimerstry is more than the mastery of illusion, it is mastery of Maya, the illusion of reality as we know it.

I know in WoD canon they claim he is dead but I think someone at whitewolf figured out that they needed to take him out of the story. Otherwise he could easily be the most powerful of the third generation. If you know anything about the history of the ravnos, this becomes even more apparent.

,,

Caine's basically just a cursed Archmage. He was awakened and trained by Lilith after being cursed by god. Tremere's body was taken over by Salout, who had training from the eastern vampires and ate Tremere's soul after his soul was swallowed by Tremere. ::wacko

This is one possible explanation for Caine. As a scholar of White-Wolf I can say with confidence that they leave the "true" mythology rather vague, allowing for several contradictory legends and encouraging each group and ST to decide for themselves...

,,

All that being said, the deal is this: in the WoD universe science is magic, while in the Aberrant/Trinity/A! universe, magic is science. In one universe the Truth is that magic exists and is the basis of the whole universe, in the other the Truth is that powerful scientific realities exist and redefine the universe from the one we are familiar with, making it into something different, but based upon these new sciences.

Well put.

Novas have a chance of existing in the WoD because magic is unlimited and anything, even completely contradictory things, can be true. However, science is all about forces and forces are limited in their applications. For example: while a quantum 10 nova could in theory create a new universe in which the parameters of the WoD exist, he couldn't make over the universe of Aberrant to those parameters. In fact, he couldn't even remake a small portion of it that way, say just a single galaxy. Magic needs to be part of a universe from the start, otherwise it has no real way of existing.

Well we have the L10 power Universe creation. Why not another equal power that involves remaking the one you are in? (This is the case in the Ba'alt game I am playing, with a L10 capable nova rewriting space and time across the megaverse.)

...As for aggro werewolf claws, in the end, they're just supernaturally reinforced claws. They can't go through metal, especially not silver.

You had better believe they can rend metal especially with Str 12 like my character. (A str of 9 is all it requires to lift a truck full of bullion. Each level is stronger than the last.) Silver does agg and burns them badly, but they could still rip it apart (probably spending willpower in the process while they suffer.)

[Nullifier]

You had better believe they can rend metal especially with Str 12 like my character. (A str of 9 is all it requires to lift a truck full of bullion. Each level is stronger than the last.) Silver does agg and burns them badly, but they could still rip it apart (probably spending willpower in the process while they suffer.)

... Most werewolves don't have 12 Str. Really. Also, that's the strength ripping the metal (a sufficently strong nova can do the same) not the claws themselves. In other words, it's not the fact that the claws do agg that makes them go through metal, it's the force of the arms behind them. A crinos werewolf with only 5 str (it happens) isn't ripping through metal anymore than anyone else.

Well we have the L10 power Universe creation. Why not another equal power that involves remaking the one you are in? (This is the case in the Ba'alt game I am playing, with a L10 capable nova rewriting space and time across the megaverse.)

There is a Q10 power than lets you remake small portions of this universe, called Planck Scaling. Based on this and the other Q10 powers, I can safely say that at that power level while completely remaking a single planet might be within your power, remaking much more than a planet at a time is pretty much beyond your power unless you use Universe Creation and start from scratch. Call it reality interia. Once reality in a universe has been a certain way for long enough it becomes very difficult to reshape more than a small portion of it it, even with god-like powers.

[SkyLion]

... Most werewolves don't have 12 Str. Really. Also, that's the strength ripping the metal (a sufficently strong nova can do the same) not the claws themselves. In other words, it's not the fact that the claws do agg that makes them go through metal, it's the force of the arms behind them. A crinos werewolf with only 5 str (it happens) isn't ripping through metal anymore than anyone else.

,,

True...mine is special! ::biggrin The strength lets them rend metal, the claws make their strength agg. Hence the Str+3 Agg damage

,,

There is a Q10 power than lets you remake small portions of this universe, called Planck Scaling. Based on this and the other Q10 powers, I can safely say that at that power level while completely remaking a single planet might be within your power, remaking much more than a planet at a time is pretty much beyond your power unless you use Universe Creation and start from scratch. Call it reality interia. Once reality in a universe has been a certain way for long enough it becomes very difficult to reshape more than a small

,,

I know what Planck Scaling is and does. The Ba'alt game is far from canon and someone(?) is (has/will) remake all of time and space...

[Alex Green]

... Most werewolves don't have 12 Str. Really. Also, that's the strength ripping the metal (a sufficently strong nova can do the same) not the claws themselves. In other words, it's not the fact that the claws do agg that makes them go through metal, it's the force of the arms behind them. A crinos werewolf with only 5 str (it happens) isn't ripping through metal anymore than anyone else.

To put that in perspective one dot of claws+agg (with the errata), will cut through a bank vault door. Not in one round, but it will happen. A lightsaber works really well as 5 dots of Claws+Agg (with the errata).

[Ayre el KaBeer]

True...mine is special! ::biggrin The strength lets them rend metal, the claws make their strength agg. Hence the Str+3 Agg damage

Ok assuming your using second ed where claws to +2 instead of +1, and you're starting with 5 strength, another 4 for crinos and almost certainly razor claws, where's that extra die comming from? By the way my current werewolf is doing 18 dice per hit... Then he's exhausted for a day but thems the breaks ::tongue

[SkyLion]

Ok assuming your using second ed where claws to +2 instead of +1, and you're starting with 5 strength, another 4 for crinos and almost certainly razor claws, where's that extra die comming from? By the way my current werewolf is doing 18 dice per hit... Then he's exhausted for a day but thems the breaks ::tongue

,,

er...sorry was it +2 die damage? forgot...

,,

Anyway, his strength in human form is 5 and he gets a permanent bonus of +3 for being down with the Totem Spirit of Earthquake. so thats 8 right there in human form...enough to lift a bullion truck. With Crinos its +4 for a total of 12.

[metaphysician]

Haven't read the entire thread, but my own solution to the matter of agg.

Firstly, Disintegrate does Quantum + Sux *levels* agg. An Agg Q-Bolt does Quantum + QBolt + Sux *dice* agg damage. Agg Claws do Quantum + Claws + Sux *dice* agg damage.

Secondly, the agg defenses are changed. None of them actually change agg to lethal or anything. Also, Hardbody allows you to soak with your lethal stamina defense only, not your entire lethal soak.

Thirdly, leak-through damage from agg attacks is *lethal*, not bashing.

The campaign I'm in mostly makes this moot, by changing the definition of agg. Basically, its like in Exalted. Agg damage is destruction on a fundamental level, and thus suitably rare. To date, our characters have seen aggravated attacks three, maybe four, times. Two ( and the possible third ) of those times, the character doing the attack was quantum 6+. The other time involved a character maxing a power as a final, suicidal strike.

[BlueNinja]

Firstly, Disintegrate does Quantum + Sux *levels* agg. An Agg Q-Bolt does Quantum + QBolt + Sux *dice* agg damage. Agg Claws do Quantum + Claws + Sux *dice* agg damage.

No, it just does Claws+successes. No Quantum.

Secondly, the agg defenses are changed. None of them actually change agg to lethal or anything. Also, Hardbody allows you to soak with your lethal stamina defense only, not your entire lethal soak.

The Hardbody thing is a whole 'nother argument, since it doesn't say it only changes your Stamina soak.

Thirdly, leak-through damage from agg attacks is *lethal*, not bashing.

Have absolutely no idea where you're getting this from. ::confused

[Alex Green]

The Hardbody thing is a whole 'nother argument, since it doesn't say it only changes your Stamina soak.

I've never understood the attraction to shutting down Hardbody.

Have absolutely no idea where you're getting this from. ::confused

I have been told there is an A! rule to the effect that ping dice drops a catagory.

[BlueNinja]

I have been told there is an A! rule to the effect that ping dice drops a catagory.

In A! there is nothing that does Aggravated. Since the most reliable source of Lethal soak is artificial armor, wearing such and having lethal damage reduced to ping changes it from lethal to bashing. There is nothing about aggravated dropping to lethal, though it's a house rule I've been thinking about.

[metaphysician]

Nonono, you all misinterpet me. I'm not saying this is what the rules actually mean. I'm saying this is how I'd rework them so they work better.

Re: claws and sux, I've never liked that particular idea because normally, the Claws rating isn't even rolled. So, either you change it to Dex + Claws ( which makes little sense ), or you make the power rating irrelevant.

And in terms of house rules, if you go with my campaign's version of agg, you could entirely justify having Agg ping be a dice of *agg*, still. On the theory that, even if you've got really good defense, being whacked by the kind of stuff that would now count as agg *hurts*.

( okay, the one guy who did agg in our game? imagine a being composed of the antithesis of existence, whose very presence breaks down reality into nothingness )

[Alex Green]

metaphysician,

You know we do have semi-offical erata for Claws+Agg already?

[metaphysician]

metaphysician,

You know we do have semi-offical erata for Claws+Agg already?

Wouldn't be surprised, but doesn't mean I've seen it. ::tongue

[Centimane]

Okay, so I just finished reading this entire thread, and I though I started out on the side of those who say "Str. doesn't add to damage", I have to say that my opinion has changed a bit. Now before I go on let me just say that I have in fact read both the official errata in the APG and the "semi-official" errata posted online, but the official errata doesn't jive with Claws at all and "semi-official" isn't the same as "official" which means I can (and for now, will) ignore it.

Here's my problem: over and over again people such as Alex and Nullifier proved through very well thought out examples that Agg attacks do a certain amount of damage due their highly destructive natures, not because of the amount of strength or velocity behind those attacks. So far I agree. But here's where that stops: someone posted much earlier on this thread that one possible interpretation of Agg+Claws would be "acid fingers" (I think it was Nullifier) and that it would be the acidic fingers causing the Agg damage, not the arm or hand behind those fingers. That's fine as far as it goes, and if I'm playing a character with this power and I reach out and pat someone on the back with these fingers then I have no argument, but if this same character also has M.Str 5 and I decide that he's going to form his hand into a knife fist and slam those fingers into his enemy's torso with all his strength then - speaking purely from a realistic point of view - my character is going to be doing a lot more than (Q. + Sux) damage (or whatever). Why? Precisely because he's using his full strength! His hand and arm might not cause Agg damage, but that doesn't change the fact that they're there and they're moving with an aweful lot of force. (Please, no one respond to this with a post that says something like "his fingers would burn a hole in the enemy's chest and his hand and arm would just go right through without causing any extra damage", unless you can find official WW rules stating that "acid fingers burn holes large enough to insert one's arm through" in which case I'll concede the point....) This same logic applies to most any other interpretation of Claws.

Now that I've said all that I should probably point out that I'm still not down with the idea of saying that Claws+Agg converts all Str damage successes into Agg damage. What I am saying is that I disagree with the idea that, just by attaching the Agg extra to my Claws power, my superhuman M.Str 5 fist and arm are rendered incapable of doing any damage whatsoever, especially since this power depends so entirely on having a hand and arm (or a foot and leg) to swing those claws with. There still needs to be some mechanism for taking into account the potential difference in strength of different wielders of the Caws power, and if we're going to say that this potential difference should not be reflected by allowing greater degrees of Agg damage for greater degrees of Str or M.Str (something I would agree with), then I would at least suggest that a character should be allowed to keep the bashing health levels he or she would normally do, these bashing levels would fall in "behind" the Agg levels.

Now that I've said all of that, I should probably point out one more thing concerning the single most popular example of an Agg attack that I noticed while reading this thread: the light saber. And ironically enough, this actually goes against my own opinion of this subject, but for the sake of fair play I have to mention it. In every Star Wars based game I've played where you get to use a light saber the damage goes up as your strength goes up. The details differ with the rules systems used by the game, but the end results are always the same: a big, buff tough guy at level Really High does more damage with his light saber than the the puny starting character at level Really Low. Admittedly, I haven't played every Star Wars game ever made, but I have played several, and they were all like this.

I'm just sayin'..... ::wink