Aberrant RPG - Misunderstood Powers

[ProfPotts]

Of all the RPGs out there Aberrant has one of the most misunderstood & misinterpreted range of powers & abilities ever. For the most part this is to do with some rather less-than-useful text in the books, but is often nothing a careful reading can't (eventually) decipher... At other times players (& we're all guilty to some extent) have a tendancy to read what they want to into a power text, rather than what's, in fact, written.

There are several 'classic' examples - such as the abuse people try to get out of 'Quantum Construct' (I raise my hand to that one along with the rest ::wink ) - but I thought I'd start off with the misunderstood, & oft ignored (even by the game authors in the base rule book!) Psychic Link (APG p.64-65):

Psychic Link is a power which has much more utility than most players seem to think. The sticking point is usually the 'one mind only' part of the power (unless you get the Extra), which makes it seem rather pointless for general use. But this part of the text isn't actually saying what many seem to think it is...

"... The link is in effect Permanent, though either member can turn if off at any time, and the nova may break the link to establish one with another character. Furthermore, the link has a maximum range equal to 1,000 mile x (Quantum + Psychic Link); if the characters are seperated by a greater distance, the link automatically deactivates. In either case, re-activating the link requires a Perception + Psychic Link roll..."

The text then goes on to state...

"... It costs five quantum points to initially establish a link, but no further expenditures are required to re-activate or communicate through it. Establishing the link requires concentration and effort by both parties and can be broken at will be either party."

All this is often taken to mean that the Link is a permanent bond between the Nova & one specific other, which has to be disolved if the Nova wishes to establish another Link (which again takes a load of quantum points & effort). Careful reading of the text tells us that this isn't quite the case...

In the first quote above it states that '... In either case, re-activating the link requires a Perception + Psychic Link roll...', & the second tells us that '... no further expenditures are required to re-activate or communicate through it...'. The 'either case's mentioned are those covered in the two preceeding sentances: i.e. '... either member can turn it off at any time, and the nova may break the link to establish one with another character...' & '... if the characters are seperated by a greater distance the link automatically deactivates...'. Or, to put it another way, voluntary or involuntary cutting of the link.

This is important, because what it means is that it doesn't take five quantum points & a lot of effort every time the Nova switches to psychically talking to someone else. Once the character has made that effort with an individual they never need to make it again. From then on they can turn the link on & off, use it with other people, go out of & back into range, & still be able to 'call' that individual with nothing more than a simple Perception + Psychic Link roll.

For example, a Nova with a single dot of Quantum & a single dot of Psychic Link can establish a link with a range of 2,000 miles. Over the course of time she spends the five quantum points & the effort to establish a link with various people - her three teammates, her mother, her boyfriend, her Contacts, etc.. In essence each time she spends the QP & makes the effort that person is etched into her 'mental speed-dial'. Now she can establish a link with any of those people with a simple action & a successful roll on her Perception + Psychic Link pool. As long as the person she's 'calling' is within range (& wishes to talk) that link is re-established. What she can't do is talk to more than one of them at the same time - if she upgraded her Psychic Link power with the 'Extra Link' extra she could mentally talk to, for example, both her mother & her boyfriend at the same time (& they could talk to each other via using her as a 'switchboard' as well)... whether she'd want to is another matter... ::wink

(Naturally some people will already have figured this out - but I know it took me a while, so I'm presenting it here for other people who have similar difficulties in figuring out what on Earth those White Wolfers actually meant when they wrote it.)

So: Psychic Link - a cell-phone in your head, not a one-shot-wonder!

[phoenix]

::blink Huh!

[Alex Green]

Interesting.

On that note, I've become convinced recently that you aren't allowed to buy the same power multiple times... and this includes veriations on that power. No Q-Bolt and Q-Bolt + MIRV.

[Ayre el KaBeer]

I've become convinced recently that you aren't allowed to buy the same power multiple times... and this includes veriations on that power. No Q-Bolt and Q-Bolt + MIRV.

That's how I understood it though I don't recall reading it anywhere in the rulebook, it was just assumed by my group.

[Nullifier]

Um. There's nothing in the books to prevent that. Of course, for any given power, only one instance of that power should be able to be activated at one time. For instance, one could have a Q-Bolt and a Q-bolt+MIRV, but you couldn't shoot 'em both off in the same round, even using multiple actions.

This is an important option, as it gives characters a certain amount of flexibility the would not otherwise have.

[Alex Green]

Um. There's nothing in the books to prevent that.

It is strongly implied in the general power section (i.e. that having Power "X+Extra" counts as an instance of having Power "X".)

Of course, for any given power, only one instance of that power should be able to be activated at one time. For instance, one could have a Q-Bolt and a Q-bolt+MIRV, but you couldn't shoot 'em both off in the same round, even using multiple actions.

If a character has 5 dots each of Armor, Armor+SuperHeavy, and Armor+Imperv... then he has 15 dots of Armor which breaks the 5 dot cap.

[Nullifier]

The point I was making is that he'd be limited to having only one of those Armor powers active at any given time. This preserves both flexibility and game balance.

[Alex Green]

The point I was making is that he'd be limited to having only one of those Armor powers active at any given time. This preserves both flexibility and game balance.

←

That's a good answer... but it's probably also a house rule (albet a really good one).

In that example Joe Nova would have 15 dots of Armor. My book isn't in front of me, but I think the prohibition against 6+ dots is against buying them, not using them.

[Blue Thunder]

So if someone had Quantum Bolt (fire) and Quantum Bolt (ice) he couldn't fire them both in the same round? And he couldn't get both of them at 5-dots each (10-dots combined) because that would go past the 5-dot barrier?

That doesn't make much sense to me. They're both different powers with the same name. When you specify what kind of power it is (ice, fire, water, sonic, light, etc. or through extras) it becomes unique. It's no longer just another Quantum Bolt, it's a "Flame Blast" or a "Cold Ray"

[phoenix]

That doesn't make much sense to me. They're both different powers with the same name. When you specify what kind of power it is (ice, fire, water, sonic, light, etc. or through extras) it becomes unique. It's no longer just another Quantum Bolt, it's a "Flame Blast" or a "Cold Ray"

I agree with you for Quantum Bolt, but keep in mind the Armor example is a little different because it can be stacked.

Also, unrelated rules question: is there a limit on the number of dots you can have in a power based on your quantum?

[ProfPotts]

I tend to feel that the Quantum Bolt example actually goes a long way to proving the other case: after all, if you can take more than one Quantum Bolt (say 'Flame Blast' & 'Cold Ray') then why would there be any need to have the Extra 'Extra Energy Type' listed in the book? It'd be a pointless.

P.179 states that...

'... Powers, like Abilities, are rated in terms of the number of dots the character has in the power...'

If you can buy two Quantum Bolts (& skip the Extra mechanic entirely), then can you buy Linguistics at level 1 every time you want to learn a new language, instead of having to buy the second or third dot? I think not... ::wink

Or, if you can buy more than one Quantum Bolt, can you add the Merged Extra to them both & pool the successes?

On the other hand, in Aberrant Worldwide Phase II, p.137, 'Ironskin' Andy Vance has brought Invulnerability twice (Invulnerability [cutting attacks] **, Invulnerability [energy attacks] *** [broad category]), so WW seem to, at least in some cases, allow it.

I know I rule that you can only buy a power once - if you want to have more variety then you use Extras (with all the built-in checks & limits on your power-level which that implies) - but I'd agree that it's not a clear-cut case in the rules. Some games may benefit from allowing this, others wouldn't.

Also, unrelated rules question: is there a limit on the number of dots you can have in a power based on your quantum?

Not up to 5 dots, after that the limit is equal to your Quantum score (see APG, p.108).

[Alex Green]

On the other hand, in Aberrant Worldwide Phase II, p.137, 'Ironskin' Andy Vance has brought Invulnerability twice (Invulnerability [cutting attacks] **, Invulnerability [energy attacks] *** [broad category]), so WW seem to, at least in some cases, allow it.

He's the only one I can think of though, including Divis Mal. I suspect he is an oversight they got stuck with.

Alternatively, Invulnerability isn't really a power by itself. Knowing someone has lots of dots of Invulnerability tells you Nothing about what they can do. Ditto Q-Leech, ditto Boost, ditto Elemental Anima/Mastery.

But you can take a Q4, 4 dot Q-Bolt and have some idea of the kind of trouble your character is in without knowing what kind of spiffy name it has (assuming of course that you don't have Invulnerability or an Anima/Mastery).

...meaning that there is room for houes rules but a strick ruling from the rules would say that Ironskin can't have multiple INV. Turning his INV:Mental into Psi-shield and his INV:Cutting Attacks into INV:Cutting Attacks + BC would go a long way to make him legal.

As it stands I could attack him with a "Energy based Cutting attack" (sword of fire or something) and he could apply more than 5 dots of INV to his defense.

[Nullifier]

Again, you're missing what I'm saying. Each instance of the power is bought seperately, starting at one dot. Different instances of that power can be used simultaneously, but don't stack in either the case of damage or defensive bonuses. In other words, you can have 2 FFs or Armors or Q-Bolts active at once, but only the most powerul effect would actually apply.

At any rate, Invuln:Cutting is a perfectly valid category for Invuln. It doesn't need to be a BC. In terms of defensive powers multiple instances is fine, so long as they apply to different categories of protection. For instance, if Ironskin then had Invuln (BC): Kinetic as well, and took cutting damage, only one of the soak bonuses would apply, whichever was higher.

Hope that all makes sense...

[Alex Green]

Oh, it makes sense, it’s just not what the rules say. To be fair your way works better from many viewpoints, I don’t see why someone shouldn’t be able to build a “Wielder of the 4 elements” (Elemental Mastery x4: Earth, Wind, Fire, & Water).

But if the case for “Only one instance of each power” is implied (although in multiple places in the book), the case for the opposite “Multiple powers but only take the best” is non-existent. If you are allowed multiple INVs because they are different powers, then I see nothing in the book that prevents you from applying them all if they can apply. The 5 dot rule is for buying powers, but in this example we are letting people ignore that for “different” INVs.

RE: Ironskin and INV:Cutting.

INV:Cutting is indeed a good Invulnerability. But the fact remains that he has three, Mental, Cutting, and Energy. He could and IMHO should be reworked to be legal. His INV:Mental could be turned into 5 dots of Psychic Shield. And his other two INVs could be combined into INV:Cutting Attacks + BC:Energy. Granted, it’s a bit Twinky to have a BC that mostly doesn’t include the original INV, but it’s still legal.

Thus when Andy has to eject “Psi-Axe – Creator of the flaming mental TK Ax of Doom” he only gets +30 soak (5 dots of INV… or another +10 if the ST permits Psi-Shield to work), rather than his book granted 10+ dots of INV. That should be enough, especially in combo with Andy’s other defenses.

-Edit-

And Andy isn't the only one I'd edit. Boom Boom from AB:Aberrants purchased Disintagration with a purchased Q of 4 (etc).

[Blue Thunder]

So if you wanted your Quantum Bolt to have more than one extra you'd be screwed? And if you wanted two identical Quantum Bolts, but with different extras (so your laser blast could either be homing or area, your choice), you'd also be screwed?

I guess this is where house rules come in handy, eh?

[ProfPotts]

So if you wanted your Quantum Bolt to have more than one extra you'd be screwed? And if you wanted two identical Quantum Bolts, but with different extras (so your laser blast could either be homing or area, your choice), you'd also be screwed?

If you wanted your character to have infinite power then you'd also be screwed... ::wink

Sensible limits on what characters can & cannot get away with in a game isn't in itself a bad thing. Novas of 6+ Quantum can already get more powerful versions of powers, or add more Extras to their existing powers. What each ST has to decide is what sort of power-level is right for his or her game. Some STs may want to preserve the distinction between high-powered (Quantum 6+) Novas, and their lessered powered friends; others will feel that's not an important aspect of their game, & allow lower powered Novas a lot more leeway.

You may as well ask why characters are limited in the number of Extras they can have on a power to begin with. Isn't that just restricting player creativity as well?

If players could always get everything they wanted for their characters, then we might as well all go play Munchkin... ::wink

All games need limits - it's the implication of having rules in the first place. Whether one rule or limit is right for a particular group's game is another question, but I for one hardly see disallowing multiple instances of the same power as particulary being something that, as you say, 'screws' a game or even a player's creative control.

I guess this is where house rules come in handy, eh?

Exactly. ::biggrin

[Alex Green]

So if you wanted your Quantum Bolt to have more than one extra you'd be screwed?

Without Q6 and/or a powermax you are screwed which every way the rule goes.

...if you wanted two identical Quantum Bolts, but with different extras (so your laser blast could either be homing or area, your choice), you'd also be screwed?

Yep. Sounds like a good reason to not get Q-Bolt + AGG since you could buy Disintegration.

I guess this is where house rules come in handy, eh?

Actually I'm not in favor for a PC to have a Q-Bolt for every occassion. And something to keep in mind is that if we can do it then they can do it... and I'd prefer that Divis and Pax be limited to one Godlike Q-Bolt thank you very much.

[ProfPotts]

Another few things to think about are:

Why does this character need more than one Quantum Bolt?

How often is he going to use each of the various Extras?

Can I get the same effect with one Quantum Bolt and the occassional power max?

Can I get the same concept by choosing the right special effects for the power?

Characters in Aberrant are usually meant to be more about theme than about crunching the numbers until the system bleeds. Is there honestly no other way to work the character to the concept than to buy the Quantum Bolt power more than once?

If, after all that, you still can't do the character without buying the power multiple times, then it's time to look at house rules. But there are usually ways around most things in a game which may, at first glance, appear to 'screw' a character concept.

[Nullifier]

Actually, I can see a reason a character needs a second Q-Bolt. First of all, Extras must be used. This means that if a character with a regular Q-Bolt gets the Area Extra, he an't use the Q-Bolt without it anymore, right? But what if the character, not the player mind, but the character, decides that he needs his power to work the way it did before, 'cause his collateral damage costs start running in the millions. Now, this can't be done with any of the existing rules if you disallow multiple instances, at all, period, end of story. However, if he can buy multiple instances of Q-Bolt, the character could merely re-develop his old power alongside the existing Q-Bolt w/Area. Now, these would always have to be paid for seperately, both XP and qp wise, and they could not be activated simulataneously. I don't see how this would upset game balance, and apart from protests of 'it just would,' I haven't heard any rational arguments to that effect.

On a side note, if you want a Q-Bolt with two extras below Q6, I suggest you look into the strengths and weaknesses system in the APG.

[Alex Green]

I can see a reason a character needs a second Q-Bolt. ...I don't see how this would upset game balance, and apart from protests of 'it just would,' I haven't heard any rational arguments to that effect.

That paticular example isn't game breaking. Ditto the "Master of 2+ elements". Thus the option for a house rule.

The general rule was put there to prevent someone from getting 2 dots of Armor 10 times with weaknesses and such. Or buying 5 dots of Psi-Shield for 15 experience by only getting the first dot over and over.

Or (and this is better yet) buying Dangersense (Intuition) several times to get multiple roles to see if it works. If Q-Bolt (Fire) is different than Q-Bolt (Ice), then Intuition (Spider sense) is different from Intuition (Warning from God). So rather than role 7 dice with two dots of Intuition, you get to role 6 dice twice (total of 12); and the cost is the same. And you could buy it a third time (for 18 dice) cheaper than you could buy that 3rd dot.

Buying Immolate multiple times would be interesting, say Aggravated, Bashing, and Lethal (Imm +Agg; Imm +RQC; Imm). You touch someone and they get 18d bashing, 12d lethal, and [1] Agg. It wouldn't cost much to set up or run either, 6 juice for 6 rounds, it would be like making multiple attacks. Combine that with Quick and you could likely Ping someone to death pretty quick.

[ProfPotts]

I don't see how this would upset game balance, and apart from protests of 'it just would,' I haven't heard any rational arguments to that effect.

No, you're right - In some cases such a thing wouldn't upset game balance... It may be pointless, but not in an unbalancing way ::wink . Of course, in other cases it would upset game balance. A generic ruling usually should be quite tight in order to avoid the max-min crowd & so-called 'rules-rapist': meaning that if exceptions to that rule are made, then they are known to be exceptions.

The Quantum Bolt + Area power shouldn't be a problem for its owner. Why? Well, for the simple reason that Novas can control their powers quite well, & don't have to use them at 'full whack' every time. Yes, an Extra must be used if it's attatched to a power (in the game-world it's not an 'extra' at all, but an integral part of the power) but there's nothing to stop that Q-Bolter from reducing the Area of a bolt he lobs to a more reasonable, say, 1 meter across - he doesn't have to nuke half of Nebraska with each shot. He still pays the QP cost, of course, getting the 'discount' of 1 QP only if the overall power-use is at half-power or less.

The upset to game balance comes when people start to design characters with cheaper or otherwise 'better' traits than the rules generally allow for. If one character buys a Quantum Bolt with the Extra Energy Type Extra, & another buys two Quantum Bolts of different energy types, then the guy who brought the Extra which he was supposed to to get that effect suddenly finds he's got a more limited character with a Quantum Bolt that's more expensive to use than the guy who side-stepped the system. Balanced? Well, that's one for STs & players to decide.

What about the guy who tries to use his own Disrupt power to stop a fellow Nova firing those Quantum Bolts? Is it balanced for everyone he meets to end up just buying a 'back-up' Quantum Bolt 'just in case'?

And that's just looking at Q-Bolt. Other powers can be a lot trickier. How about Force Field? A guy buying Force Field, & a different Force Field with the Wall Extra sounds reasonable, doesn't it? But what about power-stacking? Can he just have one of them on at once, or both? This sort of thing soon results in issues - after all, his two powers are technically being used on different things (one on himself, & one on the air in front of him) but he's getting the Soak value of both. The guy could have had the same basic effect by buying his 'personal' force field as the Armour power with an interesting special effect, & the Wall as the Force Field power with the Extra - but just wanted the extra Soak that Force Field gets. So, what seems reasonable at first glance turns out to just be an attempt at a max-min to get the most Soak possible. Balanced? Well, again, it depends on the game in question.

[Nullifier]

The upset to game balance comes when people start to design characters with cheaper or otherwise 'better' traits than the rules generally allow for. If one character buys a Quantum Bolt with the Extra Energy Type Extra, & another buys two Quantum Bolts of different energy types, then the guy who brought the Extra which he was supposed to to get that effect suddenly finds he's got a more limited character with a Quantum Bolt that's more expensive to use than the guy who side-stepped the system. Balanced? Well, that's one for STs & players to decide.

Sure, the guy with the Extra Energy Type Extra's bolt may be more expensive to use, QP-wise, but the guy with the two Q-Bolts has to pay more in XP/NPs to up both bolts, especially when buying higher levels of the power with XP, which have a significant effect on damage it should be noted. Seems pretty balanced to me.

What about the guy who tries to use his own Disrupt power to stop a fellow Nova firing those Quantum Bolts? Is it balanced for everyone he meets to end up just buying a 'back-up' Quantum Bolt 'just in case'?

This is more of a problem with your interpretation of how powers function than anything else. I disagree with that interpretation as well, and have argued in the past against it. In the context of this discussion, I believe you've ruled, in your games at least, that only one instance of any power may be activated at once. I've seen nothing in the rules to support this interpretation, and I continue to be against it. If I'm correct than this ceases to be such a large problem, and I believe that the extra XP they'd need to spend off-sets any advantage they might gain. Lots of characters have multiple attack modes anyhow, in case one of them is rendered useless somehow.

And that's just looking at Q-Bolt. Other powers can be a lot trickier. How about Force Field? A guy buying Force Field, & a different Force Field with the Wall Extra sounds reasonable, doesn't it? But what about power-stacking? Can he just have one of them on at once, or both? This sort of thing soon results in issues - after all, his two powers are technically being used on different things (one on himself, & one on the air in front of him) but he's getting the Soak value of both. The guy could have had the same basic effect by buying his 'personal' force field as the Armour power with an interesting special effect, & the Wall as the Force Field power with the Extra - but just wanted the extra Soak that Force Field gets. So, what seems reasonable at first glance turns out to just be an attempt at a max-min to get the most Soak possible. Balanced? Well, again, it depends on the game in question.

Once again, you've ignored the caveat I insisted on, which is that only one instance may be activated at once. Meaning, in your example above, the character could activate either the wall, or the personal FF, but not both at once.

He could, of course, by my interpretation of the rules, acivate, and maintain, multiple walls in different places within the area of effect at once, but he'd have to turn 'em all off to activate the personal FF, and the Walls themselves wouldn't stack even if they overlapped.

That paticular example isn't game breaking. Ditto the "Master of 2+ elements". Thus the option for a house rule.

The general rule was put there to prevent someone from getting 2 dots of Armor 10 times with weaknesses and such. Or buying 5 dots of Psi-Shield for 15 experience by only getting the first dot over and over.

Or (and this is better yet) buying Dangersense (Intuition) several times to get multiple roles to see if it works. If Q-Bolt (Fire) is different than Q-Bolt (Ice), then Intuition (Spider sense) is different from Intuition (Warning from God). So rather than role 7 dice with two dots of Intuition, you get to role 6 dice twice (total of 12); and the cost is the same. And you could buy it a third time (for 18 dice) cheaper than you could buy that 3rd dot.

Buying Immolate multiple times would be interesting, say Aggravated, Bashing, and Lethal (Imm +Agg; Imm +RQC; Imm). You touch someone and they get 18d bashing, 12d lethal, and [1] Agg. It wouldn't cost much to set up or run either, 6 juice for 6 rounds, it would be like making multiple attacks. Combine that with Quick and you could likely Ping someone to death pretty quick.

Riiight.. Here's the thing. The way I interpret the rules on this sort of thing, only one of the powers would actually function at a time. So with the armor and psi shield, the bonuses wouldn't stack, intuition would only get one roll, and only one of the Immolates could be on at a time. The point is to allow for a plethora of options while maintaining game balance, which I think was the whole intention of Aberrant, rules-wise anyhow.

[Blue Thunder]

I don't have the Aberrant Player Guide (just another book on my "to buy" list)

I'm all for story over stats. That's why I brought this up. I can understand why this rule is in place. Some powers should not be bought multiple times because they can be abused. But some powers have no problem with being purchased multiple times, as far as I can see, as long as they fit a theme and the player isn't dumb anough to use them to be a kind of "godmode"

Take Bodymorph for example. Every Bodymorph is unique. You choose a matter type and allocate dots in the power to other powers. I don't see anything wrong with a nova taking Bodymorph (fire) and Bodymorph (ice), each with different powers under them. This even fits a theme...the nova uses fire when angry and ice when calm. And he wouldn't be able to buy new Bodymorphs if they were of a theme already used (so no two fire Bodymorphs). He basically has temperature controlling powers, that are affected by his temperament.

Or is there some kind of flaw I'm missing?

[ProfPotts]

Okay, so in an attempt to get this thread back to the sort of thing I originally intended it to be about...

Fun with Invulnerability!

More under-used than misunderstood, Invulnerability is usually only seen in a very limited light by many players. Invulnerability is usually only taken in one of two ways: with the 'Broad Category' Extra in an attempt to create the 'perfect Soak machine', or as an after-thought for an overall theme (such as a fire-based character taking Invulnerability - Fire). There's nothing wrong with either of these, but Invulnerability can be used for a variety of other interesting, & useful, effects as well.

Varieties of Invulnerability:

Invulnerability - Impacts: the character's Invulnerability protects them from physical Bashing damage. This is a great way to simulate a character with stretching or flexibility type powers - their body contorts harmlessly under impacts, but can be cut & punctured as easily as the next Nova.

Invulnerability - Penetration: not super-birth control... this is Invulnerability against physical Lethal damage (pretty much what 'Ironskin' Andy Vance has), & can represent a character with hard skin, but normal insides - bullets ping away, & knives glance off, but a baseball bat round the back of the head still rattles him.

Invulnerability - Projectiles: works against ranged physical attacks & can represent a character with some sort of 'deflection field' (like a telekinetic aura).

Group-based Invulnerability: the character's Invulnerability protects against the powers of a particular group. The classic example would be Invulnerability - Family powers, in which the Nova gets to be Invulnerable to the powers of Novas in his family. In this case he'd get the Willpower successes against his little sister's Domination, & the extra Soak against his big brother's Quantum Bolt. The Invulnerability would only work against powers though - so it would reduce the damage levels from a Mega-Strength punch, but not the base punch damage, or damage from a gun if a family member chooses to just shoot him. Other group Invulnerabilities could include things like a Japanese Nova team's Invulnerability - Sentai which protects against the team's powers.

Adaptive Invulnerability: protects against the last attack type which did damage to the character. The classic 'Sentinel' defense from the X-Men comics, this power gives the character the extra Soak against whatever he last took damage from. So, if he gets damaged from being punched his extra Soak starts to defend against physical impacts, if he then gets burnt, it switches from that to defending against fire damage. If the character took the Broad Category Extra with this one then the power would switch between physical, energy, or mental defense, depending on what last hurt him.

Immortality: the character's Invulnerability protects against attacks which damage him past Incapacitated. In essence this is a load of extra Soak which kicks in when the character hits Incapacitated - it keeps him alive, but doesn't help him stay in the fight.

Iron Will: a Broad Category which is an improvement over basic Invulnerability - Mental, this power protects against any & all Willpower-targeted effects. This includes mental powers, but also includes Willpower rolls to defend against insanity or mundane influences as well (such as attempts to seduce, intimidate, or persuade the character). As a defense, however, it doesn't add any successes to non-defensive Willpower applications.

Power-linked Invulnerability: the character gets extra Soak against attacks from characters effected by one of his own powers. For example, a character could have Invulnerability to attacks from people he has a Psychic Link to, or from people he's using Disrupt on, or any other continuing-effect power which the target has a chance of getting rid of. If the Invulnerability is linked to a power which can target lots of people at once, it probably needs the Broad Category Extra as well. Powers which the target has little or no chance of resisting or getting rid of should not be used.

Invulnerability - Ranged: a Broad Category which protects against any & all ranged attacks, but not against hand-to-hand combat. Again this could represent a 'deflector screen' effect.

Invulnerability - Hand-to-Hand: a Broad Category which protects against any & all hand-to-hand attacks, but not against ranged attacks. This one could be used to represent a character with super-fighting skills who is practically untouchable in hand-to-hand fighting, but can still be shot.

Targeted Invulnerability: the character can focus to gain extra Soak against one specific target at a time. This one is particularly open to abuse, so conditions for changing the target should be imposed - compared with the Quantum Forgery power from the Teragen book (p.128) it would grant much better defenses against a single target, so should be limited much further (maybe it takes hours or days of study to alter the target, or the target can't be changed at all during combat & requires touch to define in the first place, or the character needs a fresh sample of the target's DNA).

Situational Invulnerability: a catch-all for Invulnerability which kicks in only under specific circumstances (like several of the examples above), some would be Broad Categories (such as a character who gets the extra Soak only during the hours of darkness). For example, a Nova seductress could have Invulnerability versus attacks from people she's had sexual intercourse with (hopefully not a Broad Category... ::blush ), or a Nova artist could have Invulnerability against attacks by people who's portraits he's painted.

In general the key text in the Invulnerability power is (Aberrant, p.206)...

'Invulnerability is just what it says - it makes a character invulnerable, or nearly so, to a specific form of attack...'

& later on...

'... Typically this application is based on a given phenomenon (fire attacks) rather than a specific power (Quantum Bolt)...'

So the question really is 'what counts as a form or phenomenon'? It's up to individual groups to decide if attacks during certain situations, or under certain conditions, count as 'phenomenon' or not. However, generally, Invulnerability represents circumstantial defense - as long as it doesn't apply in more than half the situations the character faces (such as the listed Broad Categories of 'physical' & 'energy'), then there's a good chance that a little thought & some interesting special effects can make this the power for you!

[brilyn]

I'm kinda playing catchup here:

What about the guy who tries to use his own Disrupt power to stop a fellow Nova firing those Quantum Bolts? Is it balanced for everyone he meets to end up just buying a 'back-up' Quantum Bolt 'just in case'?

For me, that's a perfect example of why the main book recommends that players name their powers.

If Bob has Quantum Bolt+AP, and Quantum Bolt+Area, then yes, when hit by a Disrupt (and having to choose 1 power) will generate arguements.

However.

If Takeshi Sun has "Death on Small Wings" and "Fiery Blast of Heaven's Fury", these are clearly two distinct powers. Even if game-mechanically speaking they are simply Quantum Bolt +Extra.

I'm very much in favour of picking theme/flavour, and mapping the game mechanics onto that. Stuff tends to sort itself out that way.

Ultimately, it's the individual ST who decides "yes, taking Invul: Physical, and Invul: Mental is fine. Taking Invul: Physical *six* times is a no-no".

The way I always ran it with my players: If it's a different power, it's a different power. If it's "the same thing again", increase the existing power.

Similarly: I have no issues with someone taking Quantum Bolt (Fire&Ice), vs two seperate Quantum Bolts. While the first guy may have to pay more per shot, the second has to pay more XP to keep them on par.

Ultimately, I don't see any rule in the books that say "you can only have one instance of a power on your char sheet". That would make that the house rule.

::raspberry

[Alex Green]

Ultimately, I don't see any rule in the books that say "you can only have one instance of a power on your char sheet". That would make that the house rule.

It's very strongly implied in the core book, general Quantum section, right before quantum powers.

And let's expand on our example. You have someone with Q-Bolt(Ice) and Q-Bolt(Fire), and Fire is Disrupted.

1) Unless the Disrupter has INV:Ice, he's still vulnerable to your Q-Bolt, meaning you've shut down any possibility of his power being useful.

2) Worse, even if you REALLY need Fire (which would be extremely rare), you still have access to it since you can pull a powermax with your Ice Bolt and Put Extra Energy Type on it and turn it into Fire.

This example works even better if we are combining Q-Bolt + MIRV with Q-Bolt.

[brilyn]

1) Unless the Disrupter has INV:Ice, he's still vulnerable to your Q-Bolt, meaning you've shut down any possibility of his power being useful.

Why? Are we assuming that the Nova was only going to have 1 attack power anyway? That he can't simply beat the Disrupter to death? Or turn into Fire and Asphyxiate him?

If we're working on the basis that "Since I have other powers, your Disruption ability is useless" then I agree with your statement.

Otherwise: nope, I disagree.

Who says that his Ice attack is on par with his Fire attack? Even if it was, getting 2 lvl 2 powers up to 3 dots apiece (assuming all purchased with XP) costs 52xp. Getting a single lvl 3 up to the same is 34xp, leaving the second guy with lots more xp to spread around on other things.

Alternatively, since you seem to be fond of pointing out Maxing (a once a scene occurance) as a solution to the 'problem', I guess good ole Disruption guy can simply Max to Disrupt both powers? ::wink

2) Worse, even if you REALLY need Fire (which would be extremely rare), you still have access to it since you can pull a powermax with your Ice Bolt and Put Extra Energy Type on it and turn it into Fire.

This example works even better if we are combining Q-Bolt + MIRV with Q-Bolt.

←

Quantum minimum for Quantum Bolt is 2. Good look getting Extras via a Max with that.

Just so we're clear here: you're saying that in the situation where someone forks out for 2 Quantum Bolts of different energy types, this is a broken situation if the Quantum Bolt guy has 4-5 Quantum and he's facing someong with Disruption and the Disruption guy takes out only 1 of the Quantum Bolts?

BUT it's not a broken situation if, the quantum bolter, has (say) Disintegrate, or an Elemental Anima/Mastery suite, or any other power which gives him an additional way to attack?

Continuing in that vein, Disruption is useless if:

The nova you're fighting has any other attack power.

Or a high movement rate.

Or good Melee combat skillz.

Or a gun.

Or friends.

Your example is too specific, I don't buy it. ::wink

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Continuing in that vein, Disruption is useless if:

The nova you're fighting has any other attack power.

Or a high movement rate.

Or good Melee combat skillz.

Or a gun.

Or friends.

And mega-str and a pocket full of change ::wink

[ProfPotts]

Ah well... can't say I didn't try, but I guess it's well & truly a ::hijack situation...

[BlueNinja]

For example, a Nova seductress could have Invulnerability versus attacks from people she's had sexual intercourse with (hopefully not a Broad Category...

Well, if it's a male seductor, then it would definately be a broad category. Since they don't have "chick" categories. *oink* ::biggrin

[Alex Green]

Why? Are we assuming that the Nova was only going to have 1 attack power anyway? That he can't simply beat the Disrupter to death? Or turn into Fire and Asphyxiate him?

We aren’t. What I’m pointing out is that it’s reasonable for the guy with Disrupt to expect that, having SUCCESSFULLY disrupted the other guy’s Q-Bolt, that he can’t be Q-Bolted. Saying that for 6 points of experience he can still be Q-Bolted seems a bit unfair, especially compared to the other ways of increasing your resistance to Disrupt. More Node increases your taint. More Q is expensive and increases your taint. More Q-Bolt is expensive.

Quantum minimum for Quantum Bolt is 2. Good look getting Extras via a Max with that.

Have you built many Q-Bolt guys with a quantum of 2? Generally speaking, the Q-Bolt crowd has Q5 and one dot of Q-Bolt.

…Continuing in that vein, Disruption is useless if:

The nova you're fighting has …Or a gun.

Are you honestly comparing an attack that does 4[15]B to an attack that does 5dL and saying they are the same?

…I don't buy it. ::wink

I don’t understand what you are saying.

On the one hand, you are arguing that the general rule doesn’t exist. (My position is that I have no problems with a House Rule override, but the general rule seems pretty clear.)

So, there is no general rule: Therefore it is OK for someone to slap down 15 points of experience and buy 5 dots of Psi-Shield by getting one dot of the power 5 times. Similarly, it’s OK for someone to get 10 dots of Armor for 55 points of experience.

On the other hand, you have also said that it isn’t ok to do these sorts of things.

How do you reconcile these two positions?

[brilyn]

What I’m pointing out is that it’s reasonable for the guy with Disrupt to expect that, having SUCCESSFULLY disrupted the other guy’s Q-Bolt, that he can’t be Q-Bolted.

You're coming at this from the game mechanics, not the game.

Allow me to paraphrase you:

"What I’m pointing out is that it’s reasonable for the guy with Disrupt to expect that, having SUCCESSFULLY disrupted the other guy’s "Death on Small Wings", that he can’t be "Death on Small Wings"ed."

*This* I agree with.

"What I’m pointing out is that it’s reasonable for the guy with Disrupt to expect that, having SUCCESSFULLY disrupted the other guy’s "Death on Small Wings", that he can’t be "Fiery Blast of Heaven's Fury"ed."

This I disagree with.

Just because they both use the same mechanic, it doesn't make them the same power.

Saying that for 6 points of experience he can still be Q-Bolted seems a bit unfair, especially compared to the other ways of increasing your resistance to Disrupt.

You're right, for 6 points of experience he can still be Mental Blasted.......

I'm not seeing the 'unfairness' here at all.

Have you built many Q-Bolt guys with a quantum of 2? Generally speaking, the Q-Bolt crowd has Q5 and one dot of Q-Bolt.

Generally, you're right. But that's not the point.

You're saying that using the ability that can *only* be used once a scene is sufficient to disallow multiple flavours of a similar power?

I disagree.

Are you honestly comparing an attack that does 4[15]B to an attack that does 5dL and saying they are the same?

You're attacking the specific example and not dealing with my point:

Buying 2 versions of Quantum Bolt doesn't render Disrupt any more irrelevant than any other thing you could buy instead of the 2nd Quantum Bolt.

How do you reconcile these two positions?

Thanks for reading my previous post......

To restate: "The way I always ran it with my players: If it's a different power, it's a different power. If it's "the same thing again", increase the existing power."

This is nicely covered under the general Rule 7: Don't take the p!ss.

[Alex Green]

You're coming at this from the game mechanics, not the game.

That’s right. Because mostly the special effects and special names are window dressing.

Just because they both use the same mechanic, it doesn't make them the same power.

Um….

You're saying that using the ability that can *only* be used once a scene is sufficient to disallow multiple flavours of a similar power?

You say ”once a scene” as if combat normally lasts longer than 4 rounds. It doesn’t.

Buying 2 versions of Quantum Bolt doesn't render Disrupt any more irrelevant than any other thing you could buy instead of the 2nd Quantum Bolt.

Yes and no.

The issue is less about Quantum Bolt, and more about attack/defenses that fit in concept and work together. Example: I need a key power to make my character work (or to prevent my character from being hosed) so I buy it twice.

That’s the point which is unfair to the Disrupter, whether it is Teleport+Combat to escape, or Q-Bolt to be able to attack at range, or DMD’s Bodymorph. The character has a key power that he can’t do without, and Disrupt isn’t going to be allowed to take advantage of that.

To restate: "The way I always ran it with my players: If it's a different power, it's a different power. If it's "the same thing again", increase the existing power."

I don’t mind this, but it is the definition of a “house” rule. Claiming that the standard rule is the house rule is BS.

Your rule may be superior, but ”I know it when I see it isn’t very general, and very likely leads to some characters being able to buy powers multiple times and others not.

[Nullifier]

Having played a character with Disrupt, I think I have some insights into this. First insight: There are few combat ready characters with a single offensive mode. Second insight: Disrupt, without a huge dicepool, is isn't all /that/ effective all the time. Characters with high Q and node ratings are particularly difficult to mess with.

Third insight: Relying on Disrupt to keep you safe in combat, even from a single opponent, is a very ineffective tactic. learn to dodge, and/or get some defensive powers.

Disrupt is mainly useful in situations where a particular power is causing a significant problem and needs to be temporarily toned down/turned off.

Letting people buy different flavors of Q-Bolt wouldn't change any of that.

Different flavors of powers like Psi-Shield and Armor would work, I suppose, but they wouldn't stack unless they were targeted at different phenomenon with some overlap, using the weakness system, perhaps?

[knave]

My POV is this:

1) Multiple identicle ACTIVE powers may be bought - but only 1 may be active at any one time. (so you could have heat vision and ice breath)

2) Passive powers may be bought multiple times, but only one may apply in any situation - e.g. Invulnerability (Fruit) 3 and Invulnerability (impacts) 1. Only the Invulnerability (Fruit) should apply if the PC gets attacked with a bunch of loganberries.

3) Disrupt affects a power NAME. e.g. Disrupt [invulnerability] takes out Invulnerability (Fruit) and Invulnerability (impacts); and Disrupt Quantum Bolt takes out heat vision AND ice breath.

Otherwise I think it's just horribly limiting.

And face it - if the book is unclear then every interpretation is a house rule. That doesn't make it less valid. If anything it makes it more valid because someone has thought about its relevance to their game.

[BlueNinja]

Invulnerability (Fruit) 3

Such a power should also protect you from Rodi the Rainbow and Andy Vance. I mean, they're fruits too! ::idea

[phoenix]

::laugh

[knave]

::tongue

[Bahamut810]

That was soooooooo bad ::laugh

[ProfPotts]

Okay, since it seems popular, I've taken a close look at the 'multiple versions of the same power' issue. Here's what I've concluded:

1. Characters can buy up to 5 or their Quantum rating dots in a power, whichever is greater. ('Trait Ratings' p.106 - 107, 'Power: General Rules' p.178, 'Like Nothing Seen Before: New Powers, New Extras' APG p.108)

2. Buying more dots in a power cost a number of XP based on the amount of dots the character already has in that power. ('Experience Costs' p.124)

However, it also seems true that:

3. Within the framework of rules 1 & 2 above, characters can take different versions of the same power.

The evidence for this comes from a couple of places:

"Ironskin" Andy Vance's stat' block (Storyteller's Screen p.55 - 56) where he has 'Invulnerability (mental attacks 3, cutting attacks 2)

Randel Portman's stat' block (Worldwide Phase 1 p.38 - 39) where he has 'Absorption (Energy) 4 (Energy Magnet), Absorption (Kinetic) 1'

In both cases neither character violates the '5 dots in any one power' rule. The only place this is violated seems to be:

"Ironskin" Andy Vance's new stat' block (Worldwide Phase 2, p.136 - 137) where he has 'Invulnerability (Mental Attacks) 4, Invulnerability (Cutting Attacks) 2, Invulnerability (Energy Attacks) 3 (Broad Cateogory).

On the other hand, the book (Worldwide Phase 2) also gives us:

Henry "The Bomber" Maybaker's stat block (p.138) with 'Disintigration 3 (Range) - despite the fact that he only has a Quantum of 5 & therefore can't take an Extra on a level 3 power, & the fact that Disintigration already has a range so the Range Extra is totally pointless.

And...

Tenebrae's stat' block (p.26) with a dot of Clone (a level 3, Quantum minimum 5 power) taken as part of a (level 2, Quantum minimum 3) Bodymorph for a character with a Quantum of only 4.

So I think we can safely say that either WW presented several characters in that book who were 'the exceptions which proved the rule' or that their proof-reading for Phase 2 was non-existant. Either way, it's doubtful that such examples should be taken as dictating a general rule.

So - how does it all work?

Well, as far as I can tell, something like this:

Thermo has Bodymorph (Fire) 3 & wants to develop the power to turn into ice. For this he gets to buy Bodymorph (Ice) 1, but it costs him 15 XP, not 6. Why? Because he's taking a forth dot in Bodymorph, not his first dot.

Now Thermo can turn into either fire (with his 3 dots worth of power) or ice (with his 1 dot worth of power). He can't turn into both at once because Bodymorph isn't a suite power ('Multiple Actions' p.180), but he could switch from one to the other during the time he maintains the power without additional QP cost - he's paid the cost to turn on his 4 dots of Bodymorph after all.

This means that Thermo has less raw power than a guy with just Bodymorph (Fire) 4, but more versitility.

If Thermo later buys another dot of Bodymorph - either to get his Fire Bodymorph to 4, his Ice Bodymorph to 2, or to take a third option at 1 dot, he can then buy no more dots in any of his Bodymorphs (unless his Quantum rating goes above 5) because he's hit the rules limit of 5 dots in that power.

Or...

Arsenal has the power to pull a variety of weapons from his jacket at any time. He can't pass them on to others (they're just manifestations of his powers & too many late nights watching John Woo films), & they rarely run short of ammo' (fueled by QP).

To simulate this talent Arsenal takes the Quantum Bolt power. He buys 5 dots, each with an Extra, but wants a variety of different effects, so splits them as follows:

Quantum Bolt 1 (Explosion) [Grenade]

Quantum Bolt 1 (Increased Range) [sniper Rifle]

Quantum Bolt 1 (Armour Piercing) [Magnum Revolver]

Quantum Bolt 1 (MIRV) [Paired 9mm Pistols]

Quantum Bolt 1 (Spray / Jet) [submachinegun]

If he buys this power at chargen it costs him the usual 25 Nova Points (minus any Taint-related deductions he has). If he buys it from scratch with XP it costs him 9 + 7 + 14 + 21 + 28 = 79 XP.

Each of Arsenal's 'weapons' does Lethal damage (John Woo fan remember?) & he only has the Quantum minimum of 1. Each weapon inflicts 4[2]L damage, but each has it's own Extra. If he'd taken just a normal 5-dot Quantum Bolt he'd have a single attack which did 20[2]L but only have the one Extra every time. Again, Arsenal has traded raw power for versitility. He can't ever add any more dots of Quantum Bolt to any of his 'weapons', or take another Quantum Bolt-based 'weapon' (unless he works his Quantum rating up to 6), since he already has 5 dots in Quantum Bolt.

To me this makes a lot of sense - it's within the boundries of the rules, & allows versitility if the character concept really calls for it. On the other hand, it limits power-gaming & the min-max crowd as well.

So, Soak Master can't buy Armour 5 [tough skin] as well as Armour 5 [energy field], but he could, if he wanted buy Armour 5 [tough skin 2, energy field 3] if he really wanted both special effects.